,,plato',s ,,american ,,republic ,,plato',s ,,american ,,republic ,done out of the original by ,,douglas ,,woodruff ,illustration 8fidelia vulnera amantis0 ,new ,york ,e4 ,p4 ,,dutton ,,company #fha ,fifth ,avenue ,,copyright1 #aibf ,,by ,e4 ,p4 ,,dutton ,,company ,all ,rights ,reserved ,first ,printing ,august1 #aibf ,second ,printing ,october1 #aibf ,third ,printing ,january1 #aibg ,fourth ,printing ,march1 #aibg ,,printed ,,in ,,the ,,united ,,states ,,of ,,america ,,to ,m4 ,c4 ,,hollis ,,and ,m4 ,j4 ,,macdonald ,,contents ,,book ,,page ,i4 ,,women1 ,,cars1 ,,and ,,men #a ,,ii4 ,,government #ah ,,iii4 ,,public ,,opinion #cf ,,iv4 ,,prohibition #ec ,v4 ,,education #ga ,,vi4 ,,america ,,and ,,england #ic ,,plato',s ,,american ,,republic ,,book ,i ,scene3 ,athens1 #aibe ,,socrates 7,,the ,,narrator72 ,,agathon2 ,,lysis2 ,,phaelon ,we were sitting on the pavement in our usual way1 considering all things1 and examining into them one at a time4 ,there were with me ,lysis and his younger brother ,phaelon1 two youths whom ,i loved for their inquiring dispositions and habit of always asking why4 ,as we were sitting there we suddenly saw ,agathon approaching1 and called to him to join us4 ,when we had made room for him he turned to me and said3 #8,listen1 ,socrates1 to a strange thing which happened to me to-day as ,i was going down to the ,pirus4 ,for ,i now work1 as you know1 in the ,government1 and to-day a stranger came up to me outside my office1 proposing to buy the ,parthenon and all the buildings on the ,acropolis and remove them to his own land1 and re-erect them there4' #8,truly a strange way of honouring the ,athenians1' ,i said4 #8,i think1' answered ,agathon1 #8that it was less his idea to honour the ,athenians than to make his own countrymen pay him many denarii to behold the sight4' #8,and did he wish to buy the hill as well as the buildings on it8' #8,why no1' answered ,agathon1 #8for he spoke as one most ignorant1 but he guessed that there were as good hills in his own country1 which he explained was also the particular residence of the ,gods4' #8,without doubt he was an ,american1' ,i exclaimed4 ,at this word #8,american' the two young men leaned forward eagerly1 and ,phaelon said3 #8,tell us1 ,socrates1 have you ever lectured in ,america8' #8,how not8' said ,i4 #8,and did you like the ,americans8' asked ,lysis4 #8,tell us what manner of people they are4 ,for we have heard many stories of them4 ,for ,thrasymachus tells us that he has nowhere been so well received4 ,and he1 you know1 has lectured in all the lands he could4 ,but1 he says that where in other countries he received nothing but kindness1 in ,america he received a great many dollars as well4 ,and he says that he is convinced that the ,gods have emigrated and made it their country1 and that1 when it has improved a little more1 he also will follow the example of the ,gods4 ,but ,glaucon says just the opposite1 maintaining that as the ,americans are the farthest away of all the barbarians from ,athens and civilization1 so are they without any doubt the most completely barbarian4 ,tell us1 therefore1 what is true about the ,americans1 for at your lectures you must have seen and questioned them all4' ,at this ,agathon1 who had been trying to repress his laughter since first ,lysis had spoken of my lecture-tour1 became redder than ever in the face1 and finally burst out saying3 #8,yes1 indeed1 ,socrates is the best person to give you a faithful picture1 if he is sufficiently master of himself and a true lover of wisdom4' #8,go on1' ,i said1 #8and make your meaning clearer and cease to bewilder the young4' ,for ,i knew what ,agathon had in his mind to tell them4 #8,why1 then1 ,lysis and ,phaelon1' said ,agathon1 #8you must forgive ,socrates if he looks like a sheep while ,i am speaking shamefully of him1 as ,i intend to do4 ,but the truth is that his lectures were much less successful than were those of his wife ,xantippe4 ,there were1 it is true1 many ,americans who had heard of ,socrates1 whose name is painted up on the walls of many of their libraries1 and these came to look at him4 ,but he is not a great spectacle to behold1 and when he spoke they found he was not interested in any of the things which they desired to know1 such as the art of succeeding in the world and the other things which the sophists profess to teach4 ,whereas ,xantippe spoke to the women1 praising women and declaring them to be the moral leaders of the community1 and demanding for them the chief voice in ordering the affairs of the city4' #8,go on to the end1 my good ,agathon1' said ,i1 #8for ,i know you will not be able to sleep unless you also tell them how ,i came to see the ,middle ,west4' #8,yes1' he said1 #8it was in my mind to tell them that also4 ,xantippe's best lecture1 which she gave more than two hundred times1 was on the management of the home and the husband1 and in this lecture poor ,socrates was made to assist4 ,for in no other way could he hope to see the most powerful and strange region of ,america1 which in their dialect they term the ,middle ,west4 ,it was also the only way he could ever pay his passage back to ,athens4 ,many of the women who had read the teachings of a local sage1 ,emerson1 spoke kindly to ,socrates and inquired his angle on the beautiful1 as though he had been ,euclid4 ,but ,xantippe showed him to them as an example of the mismanaged home1 blaming the spirit of ,athens which did not give her authority enough1 and warning the women of ,america to take care lest their menfolk should become too much like ,socrates4 ,but this danger they did not seem to think imminent4' #8,indeed1' said ,phaelon1 #8you endured much1 ,socrates4' #8,indeed he did1 for ,xantippe praised the women of ,america and the women of ,america praised ,xantippe1 and with each exchange of flattery they became more boastful and reckless4 ,at all such gatherings the ,americans1 especially the women1 expect to hear themselves praised4 ,indeed1 that people is like a ,persian monarch1 for all who approach and speak to them desire gifts from them and endeavour to recommend themselves by flattery4 ,before half her tour was over ,xantippe was openly saying that there were no truer lovers of the good than her audience in the whole world1 and that they did quite right to be well satisfied with themselves and to have nothing to do with humility and not to believe it possible they were mistaken in what they thought to be the proper objects of the soul's desire4 ,and in particular she praised them for their refusal to believe there was anything requiring deep thought in philosophy or in public life1 saying that people so wise and good did right to trust to their first impressions of everything4 ,then she told them that the idea that there was anything difficult and mysterious in life was only fit for people like ,socrates1 who were unfit for anything but philosophy4 ,and she explained that the reason that more thinking was done in ,europe1 and that there was more philosophical discussion there1 was that people had so much time on their hands while waiting for their passports to the ,united ,states4 ,for these passports1 she said1 are as long in coming as a conclusion is in the chatterings of ,socrates and his friends1 and the ,europeans spend the time in philosophy hoping to learn resignation and the acceptance of one's destiny4 ,because more and more often the passport is in the end refused1 and nowhere more often than among the ,greeks4 ,she is already full with engagements for such addresses for the next two years4' #8,well1' ,i replied1 #8,i am glad ,i went there4 ,for as the silent butt of ,xantippe's scorn ,i was free to turn my attention wholly to the strange places we visited4 ,and in particular ,i satisfied to the full my desire to see and study a ,woman's ,club1 than which ,i had not been able to imagine anything more unnatural4' #8,tell us1' said they both1 #8about a ,woman's ,club4' #8,if ,i did1' said ,i with a smile1 #8,i do not think you would believe me4 ,but you would say that in ,america ,i had indulged myself too freely in potent distillations of the tail of the cock1 and spoke the thing which was not4' #8,oh no1 ,socrates1' exclaimed ,phaelon1 #8for ,i have often heard the ,americans spoken of before1 and ,i know about the women who rule the men in the valley of the great river4 ,the river is the ,amazon1 the greatest of all ,american rivers1 and the inhabitants are called ,amazons4 ,do ,i not understand rightly8' #8,not quite rightly1' put in ,agathon1 #8for the ,amazon ,river is in another ,america altogether1 and the chief rivers where ,socrates was are the ,mississippi and the ,missouri1 named1 ,i believe1 after the two first women who tamed their menfolk1 the one her husband1 the other her father4' #8,you should also tell them1 ,agathon1 should you not1 that the method of domination is different1 and that1 whereas the ,amazons triumphed by skill in arms and valour1 the ,american women triumph by something more lasting and stronger than physical force4 ,they have managed to make the men believe that they are superior and ought to be obeyed4' #8,how so8' said ,lysis4 #8,is it in fact true that they are superior8' #8,my answer will surprise you perhaps1' ,i replied1 #8but ,i will answer boldly and say1 ,yes1 if it is a better thing to be alive than dead1 which1 as ,i have said elsewhere1 is not a thing we can decide4 ,but it is certain that in ,america the women are more alive than the men4 ,for the men work so hard that they kill themselves1 and are so busy while living that they have no time for the proper business of life4' #8,they must work1 must they not1' said ,lysis1 #8in order to obtain the leisure for philosophy and public life1 for ,i have heard that they have no slaves1 and no class beneath the men1 and if they did not work they would starve4' #8,listen1' ,i said1 #8and learn how little you yet understand about the character of this extraordinary people1 the most extraordinary1 as ,i believe1 that has yet appeared upon the face of the earth4 ,for if you see men engaging of their own will in the most heavy and degrading employments of commerce1 long after they have accumulated for themselves and their families not a sufficiency only but an extreme abundance both of those things that may be called necessities and those that are plainly luxuries1 can anything be said of such men except that they are either ignoble in their own souls and ignorant of the true nature of what is good1 or else that they are acting in obedience to the orders of some tyrant1 and are1 in fact1 not freemen at all1 but slaves8' #8,assuredly1' they said1 #8they must be one or the other4' #8,or both1' said ,agathon4 #8,yes1' ,i agreed1 #8that was well added by ,agathon1 for we must not forget the influence of religion which even tyrants can modify only through slow degrees4 ,but as religion is the manifestation of the soul's nature1 if we find the religion of these people compelling them to lead the life they do1 shall we not justly decide that there is in their souls an ignorance of what is truly good8 ,now ,i say that in religion they are followers of ,pythagoras without rightly understanding his doctrine1 and that they are to be numbered among the worshippers of the ,sacred ,number4' #8,without doubt1' said ,lysis1 #8the ,sacred ,number is ,number ,one1 which has long been the favourite among mankind4' #8,you are wrong1' said ,i1 #8and you must not think that the ,americans are in general more selfish than other men4 ,i think that the opposite is the case1 and that nowhere on earth1 not even among the ,athenians1 is there so much fellow-feeling and willingness to help combined with so much competitiveness and so great a desire to excel in contests4 ,no1 the number is the symbol n1 or whatever you choose that denotes the greatest quantity4 ,for they pay a most special and devout worship to a strange god whom they call ,progress1 and whose will they declare it to be that there shall be made as great a number as possible of all objects that men make1 but principally of the machines that are called 8autos0 or 8cars10 which move men quickly from place to place4' #8,it is often a fine thing to go quickly from place to place1' said ,lysis4 #8,why1 yes1' ,i said1 #8and in addition the control of these machines gives great joy to the ,americans4 ,so that it may well happen that they will live altogether in their cars4 ,for at present they must endeavour to find some place in the city where they can leave their car while they go to an office1 and he who is successful in doing this is said to have parked his car1 and is held in honour4 ,and as among many peoples a youth is not granted the dignity of manhood until he has slain an enemy1 so among the ,americans must he first prove himself by parking a car4' #8,they would become men sooner if theirs was the old test of slaying a man1 would they not8' said ,lysis1 #8for that requires but little skill in controlling cars and a stout heart is alone sufficient4' #8,why1 yes1' ,i said1 #8and it is my belief that the present state of affairs cannot endure and that to park will soon be beyond the wit of any save a true philosopher1 who will guard his place by his presence upon it night and day4 ,so did ,diogenes preserve his claim to the spot where he parked his tub4 ,for the truth can be considered in any place1 as ,i observed to the traffic-policemen in ,new ,york1 who objected to my examination of ,glaucon in ,broadway4 ,but for the ordinary ,americans1 ,i think1 there is no solution except the abolition of offices and the transaction of all business in cars4 ,they will equip their cars as offices and drive from their homes to the market-place4 ,these car-offices will enjoy all the space that is at present filled with buildings4 ,when their cars are so fitted as to take all the papers of their business1 they can work freely on the journeys out and home1 dictating to their clerks as they go4 ,nor will it much surprise me if the private home is abolished to give place to the residential car so that the ,american soul may find a final happiness1 and men may be born in cars and live and wed and die in them1 and be cremated in the engine1 without ever having to put a foot on the ground4 ,and so will arise a new race to take the place of the centaurs of old4 ,for1 as the centaurs were half men and half horses1 so will these be half men and half motor-cars4 ,and it would seem that of such a race the natural sustenance would be alcohol4 ,so1 at least1 the future appears to me1 or do you not think so1 ,agathon8' #8,no'1 he said4 #8,well1' ,i replied1 #8you may be right4 ,it may happen that everybody will be run over in the next few years1 which will disprove all our prophecies and speculations4' #8,yes1' he said1 #8that is much more likely4' #8,but ,i think1' ,i continued1 #8that we will say that whether or not the ,americans remain in their cars1 we for our part will have nothing to do with them1 but rather regard them as a vexatious interruption of right living1 and in particular as a great distraction in the search for truth4 ,and we will refuse to sit ourselves down as the ,americans love to do and start the machinery and follow whithersoever the car leads4 ,for do you notice how we have wandered out of our course1 as generally happens with these machines1 and have quite forgotten the original thread of our discourse and the question why the ,americans worship this strange god ,progress1 making an incantation of the name and chanting it as if it were an explanation of the way they spend their lives8' #8,well1 ,socrates1' said ,agathon1 #8most gods are strange1 and if they were not strange we should be doubtful if they were gods4' #8,true1' ,i said1 #8but there is a strangeness which helps the divine part of the soul and a strangeness which oppresses it4 ,if we consider the past fortunes of ,america we shall see how the worship of theirs grew up4 ,and1 to begin with1 are not the ,americans right when they say that theirs is a great country8' #8,yes1' said ,agathon1 #8it is certainly vast4' #8,and rich in the wealth of its agriculture and minerals and so offering a fair field for endeavour and great rewards for enterprise and skill8' #8,assuredly1' he said4 #8,then we must remember that the ,americans are for the most part the descendants of those who left ,europe as poor men4 ,and this is true whether we are considering those original ,americans of three hundred years ago1 or those who went there within the last century1 after the others had freed themselves from the tyrant ,george4' #8,was this ,george a heavy tyrant8' asked ,lysis1 #8for tyrant is a harsh name1 and ,i have read that the ,english themselves were always well pleased with him4' #8,i must confess1' ,i said1 #8that he does not appeal much to me4 ,few men have less resembled the philosopher ,king4 ,it is plain that reason was weak in his soul1 and that he was narrow and obstinate and full of craftiness1 and that the ,english only loved him as a check upon their lesser overlords and as the chief of their nation in their wars with the ,french1 which continued all his reign4 ,and though he did not actually oppress the ,americans it was not of advantage to them to be his subjects1 nor a thing to which they had of necessity to submit4' ,here ,lysis looked up1 and said3 #8,tell me1 ,socrates1 do you think they regret it now1 and that they will soon return to their allegiance to ,king ,george's house1 for an ,english lady told me that it would happen very quickly1 the revolt having ended in the muddle ,america is in now4' #8,that word 8muddle0 is a favourite with the ,english1' said ,agathon4 #8,and rightly1' said ,i1 #8since our words are to designate the things among which we live4 ,i know it is a common view among the ,english that the ,americans will abandon this attempt of theirs to found a new country1 and that after this present ,president ,coolidge they will not elect another1 but will all pack up and return to the countries from which they originally came1 regretting the increasingly disastrous experiment and going back meekly to their respective kings and rulers1 and leaving ,america to the ,red ,indians and the ,buffalos1 whose political life runs more easily4 ,but1 for my part1 ,i reject this opinion1 and believe that the ,americans will persevere4' #8,i think so1 too1' said ,agathon4 #8,and so it is important to consider this religious view of theirs about ,progress4 ,i said that most of the ,americans went there in the last hundred years and found abundant rewards for work4 ,the great need of everybody was that the total wealth should be increased and the country rendered fruitful1 or in their phrase 8opened up40 ,this real occupation of ,america was the great and absorbing business of the ,americans1 who were not troubled with strong foreign enemies4 ,their ablest citizens devoted themselves to the pursuit of wealth1 and received the public admiration because in general1 at that time1 the man who enriched himself enriched also everyone else4 ,we must remember that the ,americans came from countries where there was a ruling caste to which they did not belong1 and from the first they so framed the constitution that it should be clear that the ministers were the servants of the people4 ,while the independence was new and precarious1 interest and prestige still followed those who transacted the business of the people1 but when the novelty had vanished the attention of everybody was turned to developing the estate they had won4 ,no one was willing to be a minister without the wealth and dignity of ,european rulers1 and political life attracted not the best but the less successful and able of the community1 and ceased to fire the ambition of the young4 ,for the life of the country was altogether in its economic development and not in its political affairs4' ,then ,agathon said3 #8,and should you not also say that political life was made harder in ,america than elsewhere8' #8,assuredly1 we should1' ,i answered1 #8for the truth is that this same worship of size and numbers that we spoke of before has nowhere hurt the ,americans more than in the ordering of their political life4 ,do you remember1 ,lysis1 hearing of a discussion over the ideal ,state and how many men it was settled should form the ,state1 and what was the number beyond which it was unsafe for a ,state to grow8' #8,five thousand and forty1' he said1 #8is the figure ,plato gives4' #8,and will it surprise you to learn that the ,americans considerably exceed that figure8' #8,i had suspected as much1' he replied1 #8from the crowds of them that visit ,athens1 for they must leave some of their number behind to hold the country1 and there must be very many thousands of them to provide all those audiences for ,xantippe4 ,and1 after all1 nobody ever quite does what ,plato says1 not even when he makes you1 ,socrates1 the mouthpiece of his views4 ,i will guess two hundred thousand4' #8,and what will you say when ,i tell you that you are yet short of the real number1 and that1 not to make a long story1 the ,americans are far more plentiful than the subjects of the ,great ,king himself8 ,there are more than one hundred million ,americans4' ,after a long pause1 ,phaelon said rather faintly3 #8,why1 ,socrates8' #8,that1' ,i answered1 #8is known only to the ,gods1 whose ways are not the ways of mortals1 but certainly they have made this enormous number of ,americans and have not stopped yet4' #8,no wonder so many of them come to ,europe1' said ,lysis4 #8,but listen1' ,i said1 #8for the most extraordinary thing is yet to come4 ,what will you think of such people when ,i tell you that they endeavour to live all under one government and to share one ,assembly8' #8,socrates1' said ,lysis1 sitting up and looking me straight in the face1 #8,i do not believe you4' ,,book ,,ii ,i then explained to them as well as ,i could about the forty-eight ,states that make up the ,united ,states1 making it plain that each ,state had its own government1 but that there was also the ,federal ,government1 which had authority everywhere4 ,and this they understood readily enough1 for the notion of a federation of communities was familiar to them4 ,i told them briefly of how originally there were ,north and ,south1 and of the ,civil ,war1 which was fought to establish the ascendancy of the ,federal ,government1 and ,i made it plain that that ascendancy had grown greater to this day and that the ,state ,governments had become more and more unimportant4 ,and ,i did not hide from them that the choosing of parties and policies for the central assembly became less and less a thing over which ordinary citizens had any control at all1 and that nowhere else in the world did the members so chosen receive less respect or less truly represent the people electing them4 #8,yet1' ,i said1 #8the ,americans are extremely attached to their ,central ,government1 far more than they are to the governments of their own ,states4' ,lysis pondered for some moments on these things1 and then said3 #8,was this a great civil war8' #8,well1' said ,agathon1 #8we ,greeks have a high standard for such wars1 when ,greek meets ,greek4 ,but for barbarians it was a stern struggle4' #8,and terrible in its results1' ,i said1 #8as you will agree if you are of my opinion that that ,civil ,war was the most disastrous thing in the history of the ,americans1 if it fastened on their necks so great a mockery of popular government as is their central government4' #8,assuredly they would not have fought for it if they had foreknown the future1' he said4 #8,on the contrary1' ,i said1 #8most of them consider that it was the turning point in their history1 and they have made their chief hero of the statesman who saved the ,union4' #8,why8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,because being one has made them big and strong1 or rather big and rich4 ,because the central government made commerce easier between men in different ,states1 and thus assisted the great development of the country which has marked the years since the ,civil ,war4 ,in particular the victory secured the market of the defeated ,states for the manufacturers of the ,north4 ,it is necessary to remember these things1 for in ,america it is the manufacturers and their wives who decide what other people shall think1 for among their other products they manufacture public opinion4' #8,come1 ,socrates1' said ,agathon1 #8you forget your old friends the preachers4' #8,well1' ,i replied1 #8,i find the preachers have great influence4 ,yet they only succeed in those matters where the manufacturers support them1 though the union of the two is irresistible4' #8,what would happen1' asked ,lysis1 #8if the preachers wished one thing and the manufacturers another8' #8,that seldom happens1' ,i said4 #8,for the majority of preachers have never been known to wage a campaign against any activities that are thought desirable by the men of commerce1 such as the prostitution of the soul which is called salesmanship1 or the concentration upon business success which is called 8making good40 ,but they attack those pleasures of ordinary men1 like gambling and drinking1 which the manufacturers will support them in attacking4 ,for ,i verily believe they think it worse to be a drunkard than to sell one's soul for gold4 ,nor is it difficult to understand how they have reached even such absurdities as this4' #8,we are listening1' they said4 #8,why1 they hold that some sins might unfit a man to serve the ,gods1 and in particular the ,god ,progress1 for they do not value all the gods equally1 and to ,bacchus they will not agree to pay any honours at all4 ,now1 to those who think like that1 a man will seem not wholly bad though the reasonable part of his soul be subordinated to a shameless desire for pelf1 because such a man can play his part1 and1 indeed1 be a leader1 in that industrial life1 walking calmly among the whirring wheels and running the machines whose buzz they consider a perpetual song of praise to ,progress4 ,but a drunkard cannot safely assist at these services4' #8,he might1' said ,agathon1 #8if he would not mind being caught up in the wheels and immolated as a sacrifice1 but ,i can well believe he sees enough things going round as it is without going into factories to see more4' #8,so the manufacturers1' ,i resumed1 #8were strongly in favour of this ,civil ,war1 and the preachers were with them4 ,and these two parties make up the minds of millions of people4' #8,it must be fine fun1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8to make up so many minds like that4' #8,indeed they find it so1 yet they must do it with care1 for in many matters they do not have the power of making the ,americans think absolutely anything they please1 but only the power of making one out of several opinions prevail4 ,for they see the ,american soul like a ship with full-bellied sails1 going to one of several harbours1 according as the winds and currents drive it1 and these manufacturers and these preachers can decide on the harbour and drive that ship before their mighty blasts and blowings1 scattering away all contrary winds4' ,at this ,lysis looked very thoughtful1 and then said slowly3 #8,if they have indeed so much power it must be that there is some correspondence in the ,american soul1 and that the manufacturers and the preachers are strong in the national life because the manufacturing part of the soul and the preaching part of the soul is strong inside the ordinary ,american4 ,for so you have explained to me that the constitution of a ,state is reflected in the constitution of the souls of its citizens4' #8,my excellent ,lysis1' ,i said1 #8you have well stated a difficult truth1 and much of the power of these people comes from the fact that an ,american thinks he ought to listen to a manufacturer because he himself1 in his own soul1 thinks highly of manufacturing1 and will not listen to a philosopher1 thinking meanly of philosophy4 ,so also he admires a preacher1 though such are seldom humble and many1 indeed1 go about bursting with presumption and acting as though they were wiser and better than all other men4 ,but there is a further explanation of their power4 ,these manufacturers and preachers are organized and have the use of money1 so that they can pay men to write and repeat the same things over and over again1 till the ,americans1 from seeing and hearing them so often1 assume that they are true4' ,then ,lysis said3 #8,has the strengthening of this power1 ,socrates1 been the worst of the evils that resulted from the ,civil ,war8' #8,many and heavy have been the ills1' said ,i1 #8resulting from that contest and the views dictated by the ,north4' #8,there are those1' ,agathon said1 #8who say that all that has happened would have happened without the ,civil ,war4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8but we cannot pretend to know that4 ,and so ,i am content to look at what has taken place and to trace how events have helped each other without following such writers into the marshes and bogs of hypothetical imaginings4 ,now it seems to me that the ,civil ,war gave the death stroke to their political life1 for it made the central government supreme over the states at the same time as it made the interests of commerce predominant over the central government4' #8,explain to us1 ,socrates1' they said1 as ,i was expecting they would4 #8,why1' ,i said1 #8you can easily understand that the war strengthened the central government1 giving it new duties and new powers1 and fixing all men's eyes upon it1 and accustoming them to think its needs and acts of greater importance than the concerns of their own localities4' #8,yes1' they said4 #8,and if that very war is in support of the government's claim to authority and is waged successfully1 must not the prestige of that government be established1 and that of the smaller governments diminished8' #8,it must1' they assented4 #8,now1 do you think1' ,i asked1 #8that an ordinary man will be able to understand or even to follow questions of policy1 especially when he is far away from the place of government and is absorbed in the pursuit of his private gain8' #8,assuredly not4' #8,and that in proportion as ,america has increased in size and wealth each citizen has less and less felt able to take part in the government1 or even to weigh and judge of the opinions of the other citizens when there are so many of them4 ,for most citizens know only a small part of their enormous country4 ,and so most of them do not follow the questions of the public interest and act a part in political life1 which has become in their country a trade like any other4 ,and as all traders must keep the goodwill of the public1 so especially must those who provide administration4 ,but the need for goodwill is not a great check in any trade where competition is weak1 and two concerns have a monopoly and can sell what article they like and call it administration4 ,furthermore1 this war left strong feelings so that men stood firmly by their parties1 and it kept floating in the air many fine names like 8,american0 and 8,republican10 and 8,union10 in which the men of commerce who desired to run the government could dress themselves up4 ,for it is difficult for such men themselves to invent names which arouse emotion1 and yet they do not dare to call things by their true names and show themselves as they are4 ,but the memories of the war made a grand cloak for their business purposes4' #8,yes1' said ,lysis1 #8,i am beginning to see how their power was riveted on the necks of the ,americans1 when they had all those powerful words at their disposal4' #8,at the very time1' ,i said1 #8that they were making those railways of theirs and were determined to control the public treasury4 ,and1 moreover1 does it not follow that power will belong to whoever can persuade the ,americans that popular opinion is with him and that1 the larger the number and the area1 the greater the power of those who are rich and can pay for propaganda8' #8,what exactly is propaganda8' said ,lysis4 #8,it is1 with advertising1 the chief curse of the ,americans1 and may1 indeed1 be described as political advertising4 ,for never in the history of the world has there been so wonderful a field for the skilful persuader as are these modern democracies1 where all the people can read and very few of them can think4 ,all are secretly uncertain of themselves1 and in ,america more so than elsewhere1 and look to see what their neighbours are thinking and desire to be counted among the majority4 ,for nothing is stronger in ,america than this desire to belong to the majority and to say 8,we think0 or 8,we feel40 ,and it is natural for business men to be timid1 for their business depends upon the good opinion of others1 and so it is that business men very easily become hypocrites4 ,i believe myself the ,american men do not mind dying since it means joining the great majority4' #8,and one ever growing greater1' added ,agathon4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8but they will not enjoy ,hades1 where time is not money any more1 and no one but ,charon has any wealth1 so that the most forward salesmanship will be in vain4' #8,poor ,americans1' said ,lysis1 #8they will feel very lost4' #8,they will understand giving a sop to ,cerberus1' said ,agathon2 #8it will be like their own politics4 ,and they will like the crowds4' #8,come1 my good friends1' ,i said1 #8cease to tarry with the ,americans in ,hades1 and let me resume my tale of their earthly misfortunes4' #8,pray do so1 ,socrates1' they said4 #8,then ,i will say1' ,i resumed1 #8that the second great disaster of that war has been this3 that by the mechanism of the ,constitution 7to use a phrase often in their mouths1 by which they mean that the laws made for other times and conditions produce different and strange results to-day71 the opinions and ideas of one part of the country become the laws that are to be obeyed by all the parts4 ,for it is the people of the ,north spreading westward to the great rivers that have built up in the great agricultural plains the growing empire of the ,middle ,west1 of which we spoke earlier1 where the preachers and manufacturers have most power of all1 having secured the ear of the women4 ,except for an accident once or twice the same party has been in power ever since the war1 and that is the party of the ,north and the manufacturers1 and the ,south have hardly more voice in the central government than if they were frankly governed as subjects4' #8,what sort of people were these in the ,south8' asked ,lysis4 #8,the best of them were the very best sort of barbarians1' ,i replied1 #8and the nearest to civilization of all the ,americans4' #8,but they are from ,ethiopia1 are they not8' said ,lysis1 #8for ,i have heard men whistling in the streets of ,athens songs in which the singer praises the blackness of his lover's or mother's face and these songs are what men sing in these ,southern ,states4' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8can you not guess the explanation1 for indeed it is not difficult8 ,these ,southerners had black slaves4 ,indeed1 the war was largely caused by that4' #8,how1' said ,lysis4 #8,why1 among barbarians it is not natural that one man should serve another1 for all are slaves by nature4 ,and1 in general all are slaves to one despot1 as among the ,persians4 ,now in ,america the northern barbarians were angry that the ,southerners were served by ,ethiopians1 whom they declared to be in all respects the equals of the whites4 ,and when they won the doubtful struggle1 they wrote in their ,constitution that that was so4 ,for they believe they can change the nature of things by changing that ,constitution of theirs4 ,but1 indeed1 they have made much less difference than they think1 and freed individuals rather than the race itself1 and the chief part of the ,ethiopians1 and1 as ,i believe1 the happiest1 are those serving in the fields and households of the ,south4 ,for1 if you do not pursue the life of reason as only the few can do1 it is better to serve a man pursuing1 even faintly1 that life than to pass your days in the fever of petty trading4 ,but these ,northerners came from aristocratic countries where they had suffered the insolence of aristocrats1 and did not understand rightly about personal dignity4 ,for they are filled with pride against personal service1 being full of self-assertion towards individuals and of slavishness towards public opinion4 ,whereas1 rightly1 a man should not think himself lowered by any useful service to a good man1 supposing he should meet with one1 but should feel it extreme degradation to hand over his soul to the keeping of the crowd4 ,or does it not seem so to you8' #8,why1 yes1 ,socrates1' answered ,agathon2 #8,i can see these ,northerners were the most unsuitable people possible to have a voice in the ordering of the ,south4' #8,however1' ,i said1 #8it has happened now1 and the ,southerners were all rendered poor by the exhaustion of the struggle1 so that sheer necessity has changed the character of southern life4 ,but they still continue to show great understanding1 for people who are not ,greeks4 ,they measure things by other standards than quantity1 and they do not think meanly of leisure4 ,but their glories they have left upon the field of battle4' #8,yes1' said ,agathon1 #8and though they were able to prevent the ,north from dictating to them how they should live1 they have been unable to do the great work they were needed to do4 ,for nothing else could check the ,middle ,west when that grew strong4' #8,i agree with you1 ,agathon1' ,i said1 #8and now the standards of the manufacturers spread steadily through the whole country4 ,that was the third disaster1 and there still remains a fourth4' #8,tell us1 then1' said ,lysis1 #8about the fourth disaster which1 as it seems1 this unfortunate ,civil ,war has caused4' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8did we not say that it had fixed the attention of everybody upon the central or federal government8' #8,we did4' #8,and made them cease to think of themselves as members of this state or that1 but rather as ,americans4' #8,assuredly4' #8,but if the ,north had failed to impose unity1 not the ,southern ,states only but in all probability the ,northern ones also would have been virtually independent of each other1 and only joined to one another in some kind of ,league such as we ,greeks are used to4 ,north ,america would have resembled ,south ,america1 but ,i think there would have been even more complete peace among the ,north ,american ,states than among those of ,south ,america4' #8,certainly1' ,agathon said1 #8they live with the ,canadians in great and striking amity4 ,but they do not believe their condition would have been one to envy4' #8,no1' ,i said1 #8probably all sorts of other misfortunes would have visited them4 ,but they cannot really expect anything else1 it being the nature of barbarians to incur disasters4 ,we1 however1 are considering their actual ills to-day4 ,can they deny that they would have been saved from that glorification of strength which is a fatal temptation to great and powerful peoples1 and never more than when they are unchecked by the presence of strong neighbours8' #8,they cannot deny it1 ,socrates1' said ,agathon4 #8,as it is1 must we not say the size of their political unit has done great harm to the ,american soul8 ,for every number that is sufficiently large is to them a magical number1 and the ,americans come easily to believe that everything they think or do must be right because there are so many of them thinking or doing it4 ,and most of all do they tend to think that they cannot have anything to learn from foreign nations because ,america is bigger4' #8,are there really far more ,americans than other people8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,no1' ,i said1 #8there are1 in fact1 far more ,chinamen than there are ,americansbut they say that there is another test of superiority besides size4' #8,and what is that8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,speed4' #8,how8' #8,the speed1' ,i explained1 #8with which the size is attained4 ,and they say they are greatly superior to the ,chinese in speed of development1 and this claim ,i believe to be true4' ,lysis nodded his head slowly from side to side and said3 #8,indeed1 ,socrates1 the ills affecting the ,americans seem to be many and heavy4' #8,but worse1' ,i said1 #8is to come1 unless they will change altogether and abandon their pride and listen meekly to the philosophers4' #8,how1 ,socrates8' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8they are doomed to frustration1 for the opportunities of wealth are not infinite4 ,and at first it was reasonable to encourage men of business that the resources of the land might be organized1 but when that has been done there begins a struggle among the people for the largest share of the resources4 ,and1 in the end1 that phase also passes and the game is played out and the different resources are controlled by different groups of men4 ,no newcomers can fight against them1 and the young men must be content to serve these groups1 finding their reward in promotion and pay as though they were soldiers1 as in a manner they are4 ,and these promotions also grow rigid and mechanical in time4 ,and great wealth is then only to be won in some strange and lucky way1 and the battle for the market grows keener1 and the cleverest men devote themselves to what they call progressive advertising1 and the 8,problem of ,salesmanship40' #8,what is progressive advertising8' asked ,lysis4 #8,it is arousing the widest possible sense of want4' #8,what is the ,problem of ,salesmanship8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,it is how best to mislead people about their own desires2 persuading them to give their time and strength and money to obtain something they do not at all need1 thus making them the instruments of your private gain4' ,phaelon at once demanded3 #8,and do they kill the salesman who does this8' #8,by the pillars of ,hercules1 no6 they use the gold of the public treasury to teach it in their schools1 for they think that all men should learn to prey upon one another in this way1 deceiving and doing harm to one another with their tongues4' #8,it seems to me1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8that these people spend their energies in many strange and doubtful ways4' #8,they do1 indeed1' ,i assented4 #8,and they have so much energy1' said ,agathon4 #8,it is stupendous1' ,i said4 #8,when ,i went to ,niagara ,falls an ,american said it made him sad that so much power was going to waste that might be made productive4 ,and ,i replied that ,i felt in that manner about the vast energies of the people1 for if they could be harnessed to the problems of philosophy much knowledge might result4 ,for if we could have the energy pure without any of the ,american nature fixing its character1 armed with so powerful a tool we could clear up many doubtful speculations4 ,but he seemed to think ,i wanted everybody to busy themselves with serious questions1 though the thoughts of such people would1 of course1 be useless1 and he recommended me to take my proposition to an editor of a magazine1 for he said that he 8had a hunch philosophy might catch on1 seeing the success of those other word-puzzle crazes40' #8,it was lucky for him1 ,socrates1' exclaimed ,lysis #8that you are so patient with fools4 ,did you reason with him8' #8,i attempted it1' ,i replied4 #8,but he said he had no time to reason and that if he once began he would never 8make good40 ,and in that1 at least1 ,i agreed with him4' #8,and you were not angry with him at all1 ,o excellent ,socrates1' exclaimed ,lysis4 #8,pity1' ,i answered1 #8and not anger1 was what ,i felt1 for ,i knew that he had not a free mind of his own1 but was1 like most things in that country1 the result of what they proudly call 8mass production manufacture40' ,,book ,,iii #8,then tell me1 ,socrates1 do you consider the ,americans to be free8' #8,why1 no1' ,i said1 #8they are the least free of all the peoples of the earth4 ,for they live under a tyrant1 and one not a whit more merciful than was ,procrustes4 ,for ,procrustes forced all over whom he could obtain power to become standardized1 fitting them to that bed of his and lopping off the feet of those that were too long1 but racking and stretching the limbs of those that were too short1 so that the bodies of all should conform to the same mould4 ,but the tyrant who rules the ,americansor all whom he can masteris worse than ,procrustes1 for he seeks to fashion and control not the body1 as is the way of ordinary tyrants1 but the soul itself4 ,he standardizes their souls wherever he is strong4' #8,truly a terrible tyrant1' said ,lysis2 #8who and what is he8' #8,his title1' ,i said1 #8is ,public ,opinion1 or the ,opinion of the ,majority1 and he is the offspring of ,propaganda4' #8,and why1' said ,lysis1 #8do you call that opinion by so harsh a name8 ,for it seems to me that it is more sensible to be ruled by the opinion of the majority than by the whim of a single tyrant like most barbarians1 or the opinion of the minority like the ,english4' #8,come1' ,i replied1 #8and let us examine this question together4 ,for does it not seem to you probable that men can be ruled by opinion in many ways and that some ways may well be good but others bad8' #8,yes1' he said4 #8,and that there will be a great difference between opinions1 since some will really belong to the people who hold them and be indeed a part of themselves1 while others will be forced upon them from outside and will be repeated and acted upon through fear1 and so far from being an expression of the soul of him who utters them1 they will act as a great blanket stifling the breath of the soul and killing it and making the man an automaton and a slave and not a reasonable being at all4' #8,certainly1' said ,lysis4 #8,well1' ,i said1 #8we will leave for the present the discussion of the ,english soul1 being careful to return to it later1 and that for several reasons4 ,for in the first place it is so odd and extraordinary that it arouses our sense of wonder and we contemplate it without effort1 and secondly because it is always necessary to consider the ,english when we consider the ,americans1 so great is the effect of the two races upon each other4 ,but now we will look as closely as we can into the nature of this tyrant1 who1 as ,i verily believe1 is the chief evil from which the ,americans suffer4 ,and ,i think ,i shall lead you to agree with me when we have seen how their past history has made them into a prey for such a monster4' #8,explain it in your own way1' said ,agathon1 #8so that eventually you come to the point4' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8,i wish to approach this matter delicately1 treading carefully like a scout at night and not rushing forward with great shouts1 for ,i do not know how my words may be repeated and printed out wrongly in the news-sheets of the ,americans4 ,for the ,americans have long ears1 and hear everything that is said of them4 ,they are sensitive people and restive when criticized1 and if ,i speak bluntly1 as ,i generally do1 there will be many who will refuse hereafter to pay attention not to me only1 but to ,plato and to all the ,greeks4 ,and yet it is among the ,greeks that they find those who can teach them most and give them the greatest benefits1 explaining to them the principles of right living and1 in particular1 the necessity for examining our notions and for being cautious about declaring that we know things1 and1 above all1 for being tolerant of disagreement and discussion4' #8,the men of ,athens1' said ,agathon slyly1 #8have not always shown you a proper tolerance1 ,socrates1 and they are your own countrymen4 ,how1 then1 can you be surprised that the ,business ,men's ,luncheon ,club of ,hootsville1 ,iowa1 was unwilling to hear your doubts1 for ,i know that that experience is what is in your mind4' #8,a singular power indeed1' ,i exclaimed1 #8has been given to you1 dear ,agathon1 of reading the minds of your friends4 ,but ,i assure you that there is in my mind at present no such personal recollection4 ,i have only the power to think of one thing at a time and ,i am now thinking that we shall certainly never finish our inquiry if you keep laughing to yourself in this way in order to make ,lysis curious over the incidents of my lecturing tour4' ,here ,lysis intervened in a charming manner1 and said to me3 #8,let him tell us the story1 ,socrates1 for ,i can see he is dying to do so1 and ,i will confess that ,i want to hear it4 ,and when he has told it he shall keep quiet1 and you shall unfold to us the nature of this ,public ,opinion4 ,and if he thinks he can make me doubt the wisdom of your talk ,i will tell him at once that he is mistaken1 and that we are only listening to him as to a sort of clown4' #8,so they spoke of ,socrates in ,hootsville1' said ,agathon1 who then pulled from his robe what ,i saw were news cuttings4 ,i remembered the great collection of such cuttings that ,xantippe had made1 and sent back with some little malice for the ,athenians to read1 especially of cuttings referring in an outspoken manner to myself4 ,when he had refreshed his memory with these1 he turned to ,lysis and said3 #8,you must understand1 ,lysis1 that our friend here has a different view of time from that held by the ,americans4 ,for he lives in a leisurely way and is never hurried even in the pursuit of wisdom4 ,but the ,americans are hurried in everything they do4 ,they are hurried into the world and they are hurried out again1 and all the time it is a rush1 all crying 8,step along there1 please60 and the young applying to the old their proverb1 8,pass right along down the car40 ,no one here has ever told ,socrates to step along4 ,now in nothing are they more hurried than in the pursuit of wisdom and truth4 ,most of them do not join in the pursuit at all1 saying they have no time to spare from the pursuit of wealth1 but some will give twenty minutes in the week at a luncheon4 ,and it was at one of these luncheons that ,socrates spoke4' #8,is it possible both to eat and to talk in twenty minutes8' asked ,lysis4 #8,the luncheon lasts a full hour1' replied ,agathon1 #8but you must understand that men so busy have much to do in that hour4 ,in the first place they must all keep friends and indulge in friendly feelings for which there is no time in the rest of the day4 ,and so they wear the names by which their close friends call them on a piece of paper on their garments1 so that each friend may remember the special name of the other4 ,the branch of commerce to which each one is devoted is also printed on the piece of paper or card1 for the ,americans understand that friendship consists in the exchange of services4 ,and for this reason they are careful to have only one of each calling in these clubs4 ,but it is furthermore necessary to feel cheerful and light-hearted and to produce that in the hour is not easy4 ,least of all to men who have been deluded into denying themselves those fermented beverages which alone can banish the anxieties of commerce4 ,so these men sing songs as they eat1 rising between the mouthfuls to sing praises of their club or their town1 or sometimes to sing tenderly of their mothers1 of whom the food before them has caused them to think with longing4 ,furthermore1 there are announcements to be made and visitors and their callings to be proclaimed4 ,for the ,americans never forget their proverb that friendship leads to business4 ,so you will understand ,socrates hardly had time to make his points1 and1 whether or not it was that no one understood him because to save time they had made him begin while the sweet was being served with much clatter1 yet it must be admitted that the paper reported it as 8confessedly a disappointment after last week's slap-up talk on personal contacts in business40' #8,poor ,socrates6' said ,lysis2 #8did no one call yours a slap-up talk8' #8,i am afraid not1' ,i said1 #8but then ,i said things they were not very eager to hear1 and even before ,i spoke there had been much question whether ,i should be asked4' #8,yes1' said ,agathon1 #8many doubted the propriety of asking him1 after a local minister had declared that our friend was not only a sort of dago but that he was the lowest of crawling creatures1 a man who had knocked his own home town1 meaning that he had criticized many of the actions of the ,athenians4 ,but another minister said that he had something in him and was a prominent citizen back in ,athens1 and had secured a wide publicity for his slogan 8,boost ,knowledge10 though he was mistaken in thinking that ,socrates had used that actual expression4' #8,but what was the address about8' ,lysis demanded4 ,i answered him3 #8,it was about the place of liberty in the life of the ,state1 which they did not seem to me to understand4' #8,indeed1' said ,agathon1 #8they soon grow restive if you speak of liberty4' #8,indeed yes1' ,i assented4 #8,and yet two minutes before they had been singing some praises to a sweet land of liberty which was also1 as ,i understood the words1 the home of the brave and free4 ,but when the ,americans rejoice that they are free they mean free from ,king ,george ,,iii4 ,for they are slow in some matters4' #8,it is like you ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8to seize hold boldly of this question of liberty and not to let go but to force them to examine it4' #8,my heart had been touched1' ,i replied1 #8by a spectacle which ,i saw when first our boat anchored in ,new ,york ,harbour4 ,there is an island there called ,ellis ,island1 the abode of the rejected of ,america1 where ,i also spent two days4 ,many emigrants think that they are emigrating to the ,united ,states when in fact they are emigrating to ,ellis ,island1 which is not a land of opportunity at all4 ,so there crowd on ,ellis ,island the wretched people whom ,america will not accept4 ,among the figures in that part of the harbour there was one that at once held my attention because she was so much greater and nobler than the rest4 ,but she was not allowed on the mainland4 ,going close to her ,i saw that it was ,liberty herself4 ,she also was classed as undesirable4 ,i will confess that ,i could understand the ,amazons of the ,mississippi fearing her1 so great and strong was she1 and of such mighty reputation4 ,her plight too was more wretched than that of the others1 because they all stretched out their hands with longing to the further bank1 as the poet has well sung1 but with some hope also that there would one day be room for them in the quota4 ,but ,liberty had no quota at all4' #8,what is this quota8' asked ,lysis4 #8,the quota1 dear ,lysis1' ,i said1 #8is another of the mystic numbers of the ,americans and one that serves their desires4 ,for by means of varying numbers reached in an obscure manner they control the admission into their country in such a manner that very few can come of those who will be likely to resist having their souls made for them1 but a greater number of those who yield easily to ,americanization4 ,in particular1 is it contrived that hardly any of the ,mediterranean peoples shall be admitted1 for these peoples are the hardest of all to ,americanize1 as they have lived in civilization for so great a time4' #8,i understand1' said ,lysis4 #8,but the people who are least unwelcome to-day are the partly civilized peoples of ,north ,europe and the ,british ,isles4 ,for these people are not so wild as to be dangerous and they have lived in a hard struggle with nature which has made material prosperity seem to them an extremely great thing and one worthy of great efforts4 ,now material prosperity is what the ,americans offer1 and it is the inducement always held out when those who make opinion wish to persuade the populace to any particular course4' #8,but1' asked ,phaelon1 #8why did you not tell the undesirables what you knew about ,america1 so that they would have been glad they had been shut out8 ,it does not sound much fun being an alien in ,america to-day4' #8,it would be grievous indeed1' ,i said1 #8did not the aliens live together in communities1 but so banded they maintain their own life and reproduce ,greece or ,italy beyond the seas1 as is the purpose of a colony4 ,and it is a source of merriment to these men to be told to think ,american thoughts1 as the judges say who make them citizens4' #8,yes1' said ,agathon1 #8but it is not merriment for their children who become ,americans4' #8,they enjoy it1' ,i said1 #8for the children of bad ,greeks make good ,americans4 ,and bad we must consider the ,greeks to be who leave ,greece and risk their souls in ,america for the sake of wealth4 ,such folk do nothing to lead the ,americans to ,greek thought4' #8,being such lovers of profit1' said ,agathon1 #8they are timid and have little influence4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8but coming from civilization they have characters of their own1 and are richly individual1 for that is the mark of civilization1 but having left ,greece for gain they have no proper sense of being members of a political community1 while the ,americans are filled to excess with that sense4 ,but an alien child brought up in ,america will often be both an individual and a citizen4' ,lysis here said3 #8,might not such an alien child combine the faults rather than the virtues of both types8' #8,that happens1' ,i replied1 #8and ,i have great fears for ,xantippe's children if she keeps them there to be ,americanized4' #8,i may be a blockhead1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8but ,i should like to hear you explain much more fully about the strength of the soul when it is ,americanized4' #8,you are prepared to leave the address to the ,business ,men's ,lunch ,club1 then1' said ,agathon1 #8and follow ,socrates on a new path8' #8,yes1' said ,lysis1 #8let us leave the business men4 ,for my part ,i feel filled with pity for men leading such a life4' #8,that is well said1 ,lysis1' ,i replied1 #8for ,i1 too1 loved these men and had pity for them1 seeing them to work harder than ever during the short hour of refreshment that their code allows them from business4 ,i do not wonder that so many of them drop dead1 and ,i often thought of the captives in the galleys being spurred on to exertions unnatural to man4' #8,perhaps1' said ,agathon with a sly look at the other two1 #8your standard of exertion1 ,socrates1 is lower than that of most men4' #8,i know not how it is in your government office1 ,agathon1' ,i replied1 #8but ,i do not believe you would long survive the pace set in ,america1 and1 indeed1 more and more ,americans themselves are becoming sensible and ceasing to think a man admirable in proportion as he is always at his business4 ,they have some excellent summer clubs1 where they jest and play not for one day only but for several weeks4 ,but ,i was going to tell ,lysis that ,i can satisfy both his desire and yours1 for if you1 ,o ,agathon1 will tell the substance of my address to those men that will also reveal in what they are lacking1 according to my opinion1 and in what they are strong4 ,for they are lacking in reasonableness1 and they are strong in sociability4' #8,then let me read the report1' said ,agathon1 and he read from the ,hootsville ,courier the paragraphs dealing with my address3 #88,the ,president of the ,club introduced the speaker as one who had made good in his own line1 and though it was not their own line1 they welcomed success wherever they saw it 7applause74 ,the visitor1 as he understood it1 was a specialist in truth and goodness1 and would no doubt give ,hootsville some useful tips4 ,if he1 the speaker1 understood their visitor's vocation he was a person you went to consult if you became doubtful about your religion or your politics and he would make you more doubtful still 7laughter74 ,fortunately1 no one in ,hootsville was troubled with any doubts1 and he must say he could not see how their visitor would fit into the life there4 ,still it was a big world1 and they could not all live in ,iowa4 ,he confessed that he had not known about the visitor till the question of this address was brought up1 but since then had looked up his record and1 from the reports of the debates that he had seen in the ,plato publications1 he had no doubt that their visitor had the best of his discussions back in ,athens and had hit a home run every time4 ,they welcomed him as a man who had won something1 even if it was only an argument 7great applause74 ,that was what appealed to him1 and he thought to all of them1 for he did not claim to have read the reports closely or to know what the arguments had been about1 but he felt clear their visitor had not come out second best4 ,hootsville could fairly claim to be listening to about the best man in his own line that old ,athens could send them1 and that would help them to see how ,hootsville and ,athens compared with one another 7applause74 ,he was reminded of a story about a negro1 called ,rastus44440 #8,well1' said ,agathon1 #8he told a long story about an ,ethiopian1 and sat down with laughter and applause4' ,agathon then read3 #88,the visitor1 ,mr4 ,socrates ,s4 ,socrates1 was understood to say3 #8,men of ,hootsville1 if you will bear with a stupid and ignorant man 7laughter7 ,i would like to correct what ,i am falsely supposed to think concerning liberty4 ,i am not one of those who think that the ideal state will grant an indiscriminate liberty4 ,for the rulers must regard liberty with caution4 ,for ,i do not complain that here there is authority and that liberty is restricted1 for that is necessary1 but that the authority is in the hands of men in no way worthy to hold it and that the restrictions are not imposed for right objects but to achieve the mistaken notions of those holding chief influence in the land4 ,i would not question your carelessness of liberty if you were restraining bad and selfish men1 and ,i would applaud you if ,i saw the majority taking steps against too much interest in commerce4 ,for commerce can do no more than provide the basis for the good life1 but is treated here as though it were the good life itself4 ,indeed1 you put notices1 ,men of ,hootsville1 in your offices to discourage the conversation of your friends1 writing up3 #8,this is our busy day1' and keeping up the notice for many days in succession2 exhorting also your friends #8,come to the point1 but don't camp on it1' and these things hinder a friend from opening his soul4 ,for there are many points upon which it is excellent to camp1 and chief among them the nature of the good4 #88#8,i see everywhere around me refreshing signs of a growing interest in the ,greeks on the part of the ,americans4 ,you have taken an extreme interest in the ,olympic ,games4 ,your young men love to band themselves into brotherhoods and fraternities named after the letters of our ,greek alphabet1 while older men band themselves together in a ,klan with a ,greek name1 when they would reform the general polity4 ,i very greatly hope1 ,men of ,hootsville1 that it is not true1 as your critics allege1 that you are so careless and ignorant of ,greek things that to you anything ,greek is mysterious1 and that these associations desire only to suggest secrecy and bewilderment when they name themselves with ,greek names4 ,now we ,greeks rightly understand liberty1 for liberty is of the seas and of the mountains1 and ,greece has both indeed but ,iowa neither4 ,and your need in ,iowa is for more ,greeks to teach you 7vigorous dissent74 #88#8,more ,greeks to help you to discover justice and the rule of reason1 ,o men of ,hootsville1 about which you know nothing 7interruption74 ,for great things are here in issue1 the greatest of those that are in our control4 ,much indeed of our human lot we cannot control4 ,consider how the poets speak concerning the ,fates1 how the three sisters sit1 the one ,clotho spinning the stuff of our human lives1 and the next ,lachesis1 mixing the strands and measuring off the lengths1 while the last1 ,atropos1 cuts them with her dreaded shears4 ,men of ,hootsville1 we must all accept what the ,fates send us1 as they sit eternally weaving their varied combinations4 ,if ,i may use your term1 you must all do business with these three sisters4 ,in the end you will find you cannot stand out against them4'0 ,but at that1' said ,agathon1 #8there was a great uproar and they refused to listen any more1 though ,socrates had by no means reached even the middle of his address1 and was but making a preliminary distinction4 #8,no self-respecting ,american business citizen1 declared the ,president1 red with anger1 would have anything to do with a concern so out of date in factory methods as were these three sisters4 ,did their visitor know that they in ,hootsville and everywhere else in the ,states1 had machines which spun1 measured1 and cut thread in the single operation4 ,and here there were three women employed all the time on what their ,american machine could do with a hundredth part of the time and effort4 ,to come to a go-ahead community with such a fool proposition was an insult4 ,hootsville did not fear the competition of these ,fates4 ,hootsville had been insulted as ,chicago would not have been1 just because ,hootsville had not quite overhauled ,chicago yet in population4 ,but he could tell their visitor that that was coming1 and would like to warn him that if he went on travelling on commission for these ,fates and their underwear garments he had better quit advertising the obsolete process or he'd be railroaded out of every decent town4 ,and it was time for everyone to hurry back to business4' ,,book ,,iv ,after we had discussed these clubs a little longer1 and ,i had given them the full speech ,i would have made in ,hootsville1 ,lysis said3 #8,and is it true1 ,socrates1 that the lecture-tour of ,alcibiades also was not well received8' #8,it is true1' ,i answered4 #8,yet is he not most brilliant and accomplished1 and are not his brains1 as he says1 first-class8' #8,assuredly1' ,i answered4 #8,but his manner was high-spirited1 and he did not apply himself to win the favour of the ,americans as though they had been the populace of ,athens4 ,he broke also1 and that in a most shameless manner1 the law which is the dearest to them of all their laws4 ,he violated the ,volstead ,act4' ,at this ,agathon leaned forward and said3 #8,you must beware1 ,o ,lysis and ,phaelon1 of the ,socratic irony1 which has been the subject of a great deal of comment1 and of which you are the victims at this moment4 ,for it is well known that the ,volstead ,act is not dear to the ,americans at all and that ,alcibiades did nothing uncommon or scandalous in violating it4' #8,perhaps1' said ,phaelon1 #8we should first understand clearly what this ,volstead ,act is4' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8it is the law by which the ,americans imposed upon themselves a most heavy sacrifice1 and denied themselves in a loud voice that great pleasure of human life1 wine4' #8,truly a heavy sacrifice1' exclaimed both ,lysis and ,phaelon1 and ,lysis added the obvious question whether any reason could be found for such amazing conduct1 for the folly natural to barbarians seemed wholly inadequate to account for it4 #8,it is indeed1' ,i answered1 #8a hard knot that we have to untangle1 and one that will puzzle future generations4 ,many and various are the explanations put forward4 ,thus some philosophers point out that the sacrifice is being made in a time of great prosperity1 and believe that it is intended to avert the jealousy of the gods4 ,and there is much truth in that4 ,for the ,americans found themselves grown extremely rich1 and1 believing nothing to be so desirable as material prosperity1 they feared lest the whole company of ,olympus1 both gods and goddesses1 should resolve to become ,american citizens1 and should achieve their ends by cunning or magic1 despite the immigration ,authorities4 ,the ,americans did not at all desire their company1 partly through fear of the intensified and unscrupulous competition which it is the wont of the gods to indulge in1 but chiefly because they consider that the gods1 with the uncertain exception of ,zeus himself1 are not of ,anglo-,saxon stock4 ,to abate the edge of envy1 they resolved to involve themselves in calamity and1 by inserting privation into their ,constitution1 to create such a drawback to their country that not the divinities only but ordinary mortals also1 should have no desire to share their life4 ,you have heard how the maidens of ,leucris1 to protect their honour1 slit off their noses and went undesired of the invading hordes4 ,so also the ,americans deemed it prudent to show to the world a mutilated life4 ,they also believed that their own gods would be touched by the sight of such suffering and would augment the number of their other possessions1 and they were strengthened in this view when they sent to consult their national oracle at ,detroit4 ,for the oracle said3 ,in driest land1 ',neath steadiest hand1 ,the iron steed ,will fastest breed4 which they understood to mean that if they gave up all their potations there would be more cars4 ,and this was decisive1 for they think that everything1 even life itself1 is worthily sacrificed to increase the number of these cars4 ,they believed furthermore that this sacrifice would increase the quantity of other things at their command4' #8,i have heard a different reason1' here put in ,agathon1 and seeing us nod to him to go on1 he unfolded what follows3 #8,the ,americans1' he said #8are a shrewd people1 and know that men easily become lovers of ease unless there is necessity or some great future delight to spur them on to exertion4 ,how1 they asked themselves1 can the mechanics and other workers be kept from the desire for ease and the abandonment of intense daily toil4 ,for a long time the desire to possess a car could be trusted to spur them on1 but cars have grown cheap1 and it is found beside that such objects tend by contrast to make men love real ease more than ever before4 ,what was needed was to restore the right conception of wealth as something ardently to be longed for1 for invention had too greatly levelled the lives of rich and poor4 ,the poor man had motion and music and print and divorce and patent food and cremation1 and everything that was once the privilege of the rich4 ,nature had made men equal in the chief goods like health and affection1 thus seeming herself to render vain the end for which1 as they thought1 men had been created1 the production of wealth4 ,and they discovered that the devout worship of ,progress1 the very process of creating wealth1 made the prize of private gain relatively less valuable1 thus threatening the springs of energy itself4 ,as extreme wealth gave men the pleasures of successful propaganda so must ordinary wealth have some special privilege attached4 ,and therefore did their chief men resolve to prohibit by law one of life's greatest amenities1 for if a thing is forbidden by the law1 only the rich will enjoy it4 ,for wealth everywhere lifts a man above the laws and nowhere more than in the ,united ,states4' #8,is it perhaps possible1' asked ,phaelon1 #8that it was done from a noble desire to help the ,europeans8' #8,how1 dear ,phaelon8' ,i said4 #8,why1' he said1 #8it is a great advantage to the ,spartans to make their ,helots drunk that the young ,spartans may have before them the spectacle of drunkenness and be warned and seek temperance4 ,it is surely an equal advantage for ,europeans to have at hand a nation of teetotallers 7,i believe that is the word for such people7 lest they should be tempted to err in the opposite direction to the ,spartans4 ,for ,i have read many notices about the great charity of ,america towards ,europe and ,i wondered if it was this self-denial of which you speak4' #8,that is not badly conceived1 ,phaelon1' said ,i1 #8but ,i am afraid we cannot take it as an explanation4 ,in the first place the nations of ,europe do not at all need to be warned1 by example or otherwise against teetotalism1 and1 secondly1 the ,americans are not at all a nation of teetotallers4' #8,you mean1' he said1 #8that the rich can drink and do4' #8,not the rich only1 but all who will take a little trouble1' ,i answered4 #8,then1' said he1 #8is it possible that this law has been imposed not to make teetotallers1 but for the sake of the bribes of those who wish to break it8' #8,not so1' ,i answered1 #8for it costs the ,americans a great deal of money to make this change in the way men drink4 ,they employ many more policemen than before and if there is a bribe it is these men who keep it and not the ,state1 and though the ,state gains something from the fines it imposes1 yet it loses a great deal more by not being able to tax wine and the other drinks4' ,hereupon ,lysis exclaimed3 #8,then what is the real reason for such strange goings on4 ,for my part1 ,i believe they prohibit drinks by law in order to give an added flavour or zest to their drinking4 ,for forbidden fruit is sweet to taste4' #8,for the same reason1 in fact1' said ,agathon1 #8that they mix different drinks together1 to get more stimulus4 ,so that we may say that ,prohibition and cocktails spring from the same source4' #8,that explanation and the others1 my worthy friends1' ,i said1 #8may help us to understand why so many are resigned to the privation4 ,but very different is the true cause why they have poured out so vast a libation to ,efficiency4' #8,explain it1 then1' said they all4 #8,did we not agree earlier1' ,i answered1 #8that in ,america the ,state does many things that are not for its own good1 and that are not done in the interests of the ,state itself1 but that rich and energetic minorities could use the machinery of representative government to make their own will appear as the will of the ,state8' #8,indeed1 yes1' they said4 #8,and truly1' said ,agathon1 #8and when he said earlier that the combination of the manufacturers and the preachers could never be resisted1 ,i thought at once of this ,prohibition4' #8,it seemed to the interests of those two classes and the women1' ,i said1 #8and they brought it about4 ,but such men commonly cannot judge what is to their own advantage4 ,for the preachers are men who have chosen for themselves the task of moral leadership1 and have commonly great earnestness and little else4 ,you know1 ,lysis1 that the preachers are those who have separated themselves from the priests and the old religious traditions8 ,indeed it was largely by such preachers and their close followers that the first colonies were founded in ,america4' #8,the priests themselves1' said ,lysis1 #8are surely not enemies to drink4' #8,by ,hercules1 no1' ,i said4 #8,that means much1' said ,agathon4 #8,the priests1' ,i continued1 #8took to ,aristotle generations ago1 and have held by his teachings in a most striking manner4 ,for ,aristotle's mind is much like a corkscrew1 being tortuous but powerful1 and opening up worthy things for our satisfaction4 ,his reputation has surprised me somewhat1 seeing how often he is wrong4 ,for he is in general too easily satisfied1 and thinks that because a thing exists it is therefore justified4 ,but what he has written about preserving the mean of temperance is excellent1 and to that the priests have adhered4 ,the ,united ,states1 however1 is a preachers' country4 ,now the preachers are opposed by their natures to the humane and easy enjoyment of life and would sacrifice temperance to avoid excess4 ,for they rightly hold drunkenness to be a degrading thing1 but wrongly suppose abstinence to be superior to moderation or temperance4 ,now while they preached against drunkenness they did no harm1 but they made in my opinion a great mistake when they stirred up the women to tamper with the laws4' #8,is that what they did8' asked ,lysis4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8though the women did not want much persuading1 for it seemed obvious to them that money spent by men in obtaining the enjoyment that friends gain by drinking together was wasted money while the same money spent in adorning the women themselves or their offspring was money profitably spent4 ,for they were eager to believe such things4' ,a great look of understanding came into the eyes of both ,lysis and ,phaelon1 and ,lysis said3 #8,prohibition then is in large measure a part of that tyranny of the women of which you spoke a little while back8' #8,why1 yes1' ,i replied1 #8they were strong enough both by the votes that they enjoyed in many ,states and by their ascendency over their men to pass this law4 ,for it was a strong alliance4 ,the manufacturers also had great influence with the men1 for they kept repeating that all the other trades would share more money if the wine trade was forbidden by the law1 and in each man the trading part of the soul fought with the reasonable part1 and with many of the ,americans it conquered4 ,and each man thought that he could himself evade the law4' #8,did many say that1 ,socrates8' asked ,lysis4 #8,no1' ,i answered2 #8they use other words4 ,they say that such a law is a good thing for the country1 by which they mean that it is helping their business without changing their private habits4 ,while others again1 both men and women1 are of the nobler sort1 and will gladly make a personal sacrifice1 in the belief that it will help the poor4 ,there are many rich women who regard the poor as their family1 and seek their good as a mother seeks that of her children4 ,such are called ,social ,reformers4' #8,but are not the poor grown up8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,of course1' ,i answered2 #8but the rich have different ideas from theirs1 especially if the poor are from south ,europe4 ,so the rich busy themselves to change the character of the poor4 ,when they are doing that they call themselves by a high-sounding title1 and say they are ,practical ,idealists4' #8,i understand1' said ,lysis1 #8for the rich are the manufacturers1 or share the outlook of manufacturers1 and when they are considering the character of the poor1 they will identify being a good man with being a good worker1 and will give no praise at all to such a one as you yourself1 ,socrates1 forever sitting about in the public places and busying yourself with subjects with which manufacturers have nothing to do4' #8,you have understood perfectly1 ,o excellent ,lysis1' ,i exclaimed1 #8and you well describe what happens in ,america to-day1 and among other things why the manufacturers have abolished1 as far as they could1 the drinking of the poor4 ,for it is perhaps better for a workman to be a teetotaller if you consider him merely in his function as a workman1 and as a machine to be treated in a certain way1 but it is quite a different story if you consider him as a man4 ,for teetotalism makes a worker more a worker but a man less a man4 ,and drunkenness makes him also less a man1 but instead of becoming more of a workman he ceases to be a workman at all4' #8,but teetotalism1' said ,agathon1 #8is the more dangerous extreme4 ,for only a very exceptional man can keep really drunk for long periods whereas many teetotallers stay teetotallers for months together4' #8,many months1' ,i agreed4 #8,and even years in some cases1 ,socrates1' he went on1 #8if what ,i hear is true4' #8,why1 yes1' ,i said1 #8,i'm afraid we cannot deny it3 there are men in ,kansas who have repressed their thirst for upwards of forty years4' #8,surely1' said ,lysis1 #8we would pay more to see them exhibited here than the ,americans would pay to see the ,parthenon8 ,let us give the ,parthenon to that ,american who approached you this morning1 ,agathon1 and let us have some ,kansans4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8such a group of voluntary ,tantaluses would be a spectacle of much interest to the young1 who are commonly insensible to the griefs of others1 and who would not think it base to let their eyes have their fill of the dreadful sight4 ,but ,i confess my heart was touched1 for the state of these ,kansans is like that of the ponies that are kept in coal pits1 who by long habituation to the dark become blind4 ,and to their children these people show imaginary pictures of the inside of the human body and the effects of alcohol1 for so they love to call all fermented beverages1 so that these children shall believe they are being saved from a most terrible dragon4 ,nor is it till they visit ,europe that they learn that the poison of alcohol is not always fatal4' #8,it is a good thing for the ,americans that so many of them visit ,europe1' said ,lysis gravely4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8for ,i met a man in ,kansas who had never been out of ,kansas and who refused to believe that ,i was a human being at all4 ,for he said that ,science had shown that alcohol was a poison1 and as the ,europeans were known from history books to have made a habit of consuming large quantities of this poison1 it followed that they were all dead4 ,and he declared that the present peoples in ,europe were nothing but a race of apes pretending to be the same creatures that ,science showed alcohol to have destroyed4 ,he said the apes were doing it to win the affection that the ,americans would show to other human beings1 however1 degraded1 but not to apes4' #8,truly a striking view1' exclaimed ,lysis4 #8,it was one that explained everything to my friend1' ,i answered4 #8,he declared the pretence could not last1 and that the apes had accordingly begun to spread a story round that all men1 even the ,americans1 were kinsfolk to the apes4 ,but with this1 he said1 he and all good hundred per cent ,americans would have nothing whatever to do1 and he added they were prepared if necessary to disprove it by an amendment to the ,constitution4 ,he claimed1 moreover1 that this view of his gave by far the best explanation of the chattering and quarrelling that was forever going on over in ,europe4 ,and he added that my appearance corroborated his theory4' #8,well1 ,socrates1' said ,agathon1 #8you must allow us to excuse him there4' #8,so did ,i excuse him1' ,i answered1 #8for ,i knew that that man was intoxicated1 not indeed by wine1 but by statistics1 for the ,americans find in statistics a drug more powerful than alcohol1 the women shamelessly revealing their craving and attending lectures1 and crying out for facts1 but meaning these numbers4 ,for all large numbers and all numbers arranged in patterns have a magical power over them4 ,and they will eagerly deny their own personal experience if it seems to upset what the statistics say4' #8,truly a pitiable servitude1' murmured ,lysis4 #8,pitiable indeed1' ,i agreed1 #8but they wear these chains of numbers proudly1 for in general the numbers are large4 ,and they have no notion that these numbers must be used with care1 but will let themselves be led into any error by any cunning piper luring them to destruction1 provided only that he can pipe the proper magic ciphers and talk to them of percentages4 ,for these statisticians have more power to make great crowds follow them than ever ,orpheus had4 ,but ,i expect that in the end they will most of them meet with the fate of ,orpheus and be torn to pieces by angry women1 filled with a different kind of madness4' #8,well1' said ,agathon1 #8there is one thing very hopeful for them and of excellent augury4' #8,which8' ,i asked4 #8,why1' he said1 #8when they consider the number of their crimes and how much blood is shed and treasure seized each year1 do you not think they will be greatly impressed and will realize that their chief trouble is that the laws are not kept and that obedience is not enforced8' #8,i do1' ,i agreed4 #8,and are they not an active people and one ready to make experiment1 even to experiment with ,european usages8' #8,i believe so4' #8,well1' he said1 #8will they not be forced to realize that they were the very last people in the world who should have attempted ,prohibition1 for they cannot even protect human life well4 ,for if they had been a very poor people1 fighting for a share in the commerce of nations1 and endowed with a tradition of law observance1 then they might have attempted this further discipline4 ,but the ,americans were not poor1 nor were they desperately in need of such efficiency4 ,indeed no people could better afford to drink4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8and their laws were the last laws that could stand the strain4 ,for they have never been well kept1 and there has always been corruption4 ,so that they did not do well when they outlawed a permanent human appetite and made another enemy to the law4' #8,did you keep the law yourself1 ,socrates8' said ,lysis1 #8for you always say that even a bad law should be obeyed because it is the law4' #8,why1' ,i answered1 #8thinking as ,i do1 and being the guest of the ,americans1 ,i would take no step to avoid the abstinence that the law imposed4 ,yet ,i must confess that there was no city in which ,i went unrefreshed4' #8,a great thing is friendship1' exclaimed ,lysis4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8my friends and hosts everywhere insisted1 not all of them everywhere1 but some in every place1 who sought me out1 knowing that ,i was from the ,mediterranean4' #8,and when these drinks were offered to you1 ,socrates1' demanded ,lysis1 looking me straight in the face and fixing his eyes on mine1 #8did you still tell them that all laws should be obeyed until they can be altered8' #8,assuredly4' #8,what did they answer8' #8,that ,i was to drink my fill1 and not be at all uneasy lest ,i was breaking any law1 because it was lawful to drink the wine that you possessed in your cellar before the law was made4 ,it seems it was always such wine that ,i was drinking4 ,nor did they seem to fear that they would ever exhaust those cellars of theirs4' #8,happy ,socrates1' they said4 #8,they urged moreover1 when they were not too busy to discuss the point1 that a law among them is not at all the same as a law among the ,athenians4 ,they said that perhaps in ,athens1 which was small1 the people made the law knowing what they did1 but that in ,america thousands and thousands of laws were made every year4 ,america was equally the paradise of her who would make a law and him who would break one1 and in proportion as the existing laws were not kept was there a clamour for fresh laws4 ,but there is no sense of responsibility1 either in the making or the breaking4 ,and we would do well1 my wonderful friends1 to give this advice to the ,americans that they should treat a law as a great luxury1 to be cherished as ,helen herself was cherished4 ,then when they find they are observing all1 or some part at least1 of the laws they have1 they may reward themselves by a new law4 ,do those who juggle and balance plates seek to add another plate to the row standing edgeways on their noses or foreheads before they can balance those they already have8' #8,indeed1 no1 ,socrates1' they replied4 #8,and if they did1' ,i continued1 #8would they not break all their plates and not receive any plaudits from the spectators8' #8,such1' said ,lysis1 #8would be their deserved misfortune4' #8,and should we not call such jugglers presumptuous fools and men unskilled in their art8' #8,what else1 indeed1 ,o ,socrates8' #8,and yet is their case any different from that of these ,americans who before they can well keep ten laws will make fifty more8 ,so that the law ceases to hold authority among them and they are careless who makes it and who breaks it4 ,for there can be no more grievous ill done to any state than that its citizens should not think rightly about the laws1 and should forget that a good law is the expression of ,justice1 allotting to each man what is his1 and is deserving of all reverence1 while a bad law destroys the life of the state and ought by all means to be abolished as soon as possible4' #8,we agree1' they said4 ,,book ,v #8,does it not seem to you1 ,o ,lysis and ,phaelon1 that these ,americans suffer many grievous evils1 and do not know where they are1 and may truly be called ,atlantis1 the ,lost ,continent8' #8,lost1 indeed1 ,socrates1' answered ,lysis1 #8and ,i pity them1 though it is largely their own fault4' #8,and do you not think1' ,i asked1 #8that education might help them1 if it were begun when they were quite young and kept up till thirty-five8' #8,it would be worth trying1' they said1 #8but not safe to stop at thirty-five4' #8,you remember1' ,i continued1 #8how in our ideal ,state we used to agree that there must be a guardian class chosen from those of the best natures and trained up to watch over the life of the state and to govern the ordinary citizens4' #8,yes1 ,socrates4' #8,but it seems plain that in ,america the duties of these guardians1 such as suppressing and encouraging opinions and the like1 have been usurped by manufacturers and people of that sort who ought never to be given any power at all4' #8,such is the unhappy truth in ,america4' #8,we must therefore educate a guardian class for the ,americans who shall drive these usurpers from their position of influence and lead the ,americans towards wisdom4' #8,we must4' #8,and shall we draw our guardians from men or from women8' #8,as it is ,america1 from women1' suggested ,phaelon4 #8,i agree1' ,i said1 #8we will make women guardians1 for we are desperate and the proverb speaks truly3 ,desperate diseases need desperate remedies4 ,and we will do so for several reasons4 ,for in the first place such an arrangement will seem natural to the ,americans themselves1 and the poet has well written3 ,nature is strong4 #8,and secondly the women live longer and we shall be able to train them more thoroughly4 ,and thirdly1 the women show some interest in philosophy1 while the men are hopeless4 ,for the women think they know something when in fact they know nothing1 but the men are not even aware that there is anything to know4 ,and fourthly the women are accustomed to leisure1 and do not fear or despise it1 for the men have passed it on to them1 not knowing what to do with it themselves4' #8,but there is a better reason than any of these1' said ,agathon4 #8,what is that8' asked ,lysis4 #8,why1 that the ,american women are exceedingly agreeable when they are young4 ,or did you not think so1 ,socrates8' #8,i did think so1' ,i said1 #8and though ,i did not mention it1 ,i will confess it was the chief reason4 ,they are not so attractive as our ,grecian youths1 indeed1 but they are attractive all the same4 ,for in ,america the individuals1 both youths and maidens and women1 but chiefly the maidens1 are full of lovableness and goodwill when they are young1 but are very quickly brought under the tyranny of propaganda and betrayed by riches and the sense of efficiency into a false valuing of what is to be aimed at in living4' #8,begin quickly1' said ,agathon1 #8and let us see you open this college for young women1 for ,i take it from what you say you would not wish ,xantippe to control so important a matter4' #8,by the dog1 no1' ,i cried4 #8,then1' said ,agathon1 #8let us found our college4' #8,by all means1' ,i said1 #8but first let us see whether any of the existing universities and colleges will be of any use to us1 for there are many hundreds of them4' #8,indeed1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis in surprise1 #8many hundred colleges8 ,i should not have supposed there were any at all4' ,i had been of this opinion1 and ,i said3 #8,i had not supposed so either1 for ,i thought no educated person would be willing to listen to ,xantippe1 but ,i soon learned the answer to my puzzle1 for nothing is easier in ,america than to attend college and nothing harder than to get educated4' #8,it seems certain that we shall have to change much1' said ,lysis4 #8,yes1' ,i answered1 #8for at present they educate the men and the women together though they are going to do different work afterwards and so should receive a different training4' #8,yes1' they said1 #8we must alter that1 and not educate any more of the men4' #8,that will go far to solve one of our problems1 for at present the chances of education are destroyed by the numbers of the students1 and the ,americans think it finer to give a smattering of information to everybody than to give education to a few1 and talk with pride of the preposterous numbers that pass through their colleges4' #8,if there are so many students1 ,socrates1' asked ,phaelon1 #8is there not a great body of teachers8 ,what part do they play in ,america and could not they be the guardians8' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8of all who suffer from the present ill-ordered life there1 none suffer more than do these teachers4 ,but if you will be patient with me ,i will describe how they live4' #8,proceed1 ,socrates4' #8,to begin with1 does it not seem to you that those who separate themselves so sharply from the popular outlook and embrace the pursuit of learning rather than that of wealth will be no ordinary ,americans1 but will either be above or below their fellow citizens4' #8,it would seem so1 indeed1' they answered4 #8,the best1' ,i said1 #8are much above their fellows and seek this life from a noble love of noble things4 ,do you know what happens to a great number of such men in ,america8' #8,what8' they asked with apprehension4 #8,you do well to look frightened1' ,i said gravely4 #8,they are made ,presidents of universities and colleges1 and after that there is no peace for them at all4 ,but they are compelled to spend all their time like the generals of disorderly and worthless troops1 organizing the great numbers of their students and providing useless courses for countless blockheads4 ,moreover1 they are driven to associate with the men of commerce and to flatter them for their great wealth4' #8,why in the world should they have to do that8' ,lysis demanded4 #8,to make the college bigger1' ,i replied4 #8,for the ,americans estimate a ,president by his power to obtain benefactions and so to build new wings and offices1 and leave a larger institution than he found4 ,they are soon to build in ,america the tallest university in the world4 ,and there is a worse consequence even than this waste of fine men in presidential duties4' #8,what can be worse than that8' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8with all the colleges competing for the gifts of rich men will not those colleges obtain most whose teachers teach what the rich men like to have believed8' #8,naturally4' #8,and where a college has much to hope from wealthy persons will it not hesitate to lose large sums of money rather than discourage free inquiry into everything8' #8,i think it will do more than hesitate1 it will sacrifice the inquiries for the gold4' #8,indeed1' ,i said1 #8it often happens1 and the teachers do not dare to discuss freely the most important matters4 ,but they are fearful of the opinion of the prosperous and they dread the crowd as no philosopher ought to do4 ,they are careful not to examine closely into the deepest questions of all touching morality and the nature of the gods4 ,they are equally afraid of the question how wealth should be divided and how the state should behave to private riches4 ,so that in the one place where you might hope to see the existing system examined freely1 you do not find any such free spirit of questioning1 but a nervous desire to give satisfaction to the powerful element of society4' #8,rich men can avail much1' said ,lysis1 #8though they be base1 mechanical fellows4' #8,why1' ,i replied1 #8did ,i not say a moment ago that some who embraced academic life were above their fellows but others indeed beneath8' #8,yes1' they said4 #8,and you did not understand me8' #8,no4' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8,i meant that many embrace teaching not from any high-minded aloofness to commerce or love of knowledge1 but because it is the easiest employment they can find and they shirk the labour of business life4 ,such men are not really students at all1 and spend their lives repeating over and over the small stock of information they gathered in early life4 ,these inferior teachers live the life of donkeys or mules working a water-wheel1 treading for ever round and round the same narrow course after they have once learned how the routine goes4' ,at which ,lysis exclaimed3 #8,truly a miserable existence4' #8,wretched1 indeed1' echoed ,agathon1 #8and one that does more harm than good1 for the majority of their students despise them1 rightly guessing that they would be prosperous business men if they knew how it was done1 and so the things of the mind are brought into dishonour4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8but we must not blame the teachers that they avoid an unequal contest4 ,for already they have sacrificed much to pursue their calling4 ,moreover a noble minority strives as bravely as did ,leonidas and his three hundred ,spartans1 preferring all sacrifices before servitude to the barbarian hosts4 ,but these men will agree with us4' #8,will most of the teachers be with us8' asked ,lysis4 #8,alas1' ,i said1 #8the most part of the teachers are not valiant4' #8,what do they fear1' asked ,phaelon1 #8for they know that they will never become at all like ,crsus4 ,it is not a happy thing to be like ,crsus4' #8,no1 ,phaelon1' ,i said4 #8,they have no great ambition1 as it seems to me4 ,rather are they driven by fear4 ,they fear1 ,phaelon1 what the rich will do to them4' #8,what8' #8,they might take away their cars4 ,for they have bought cars for which they have not paid1 promising to do so by a life of labour4 ,and the rich might take them away4 ,then1 indeed1 the poor teachers would have to become philosophers of the ,peripatetic ,school4' #8,they would not love you1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8if they heard you speak unfeelingly like that4' #8,as it is1' ,i answered1 #8they do not love the ,greeks1 and do not think a knowledge of ,greece anything but a strange superfluity4 ,they do not consider it a necessity at all4' #8,then we will not allow such people to teach in our ideal ,america1' exclaimed ,lysis1 hotly4 #8,indeed no1' ,i said1 #8for in our college we will have no necessity for a large staff1 and so we will not have any of these sham teachers lowering the dignity of learning4' #8,that will be a great gain4' #8,there are already some small colleges in ,america which can help us4' #8,how so8' #8,why1 they are colleges that deliberately limit their numbers4 ,often they refuse to train more than five hundred students at a time4' #8,five hundred students6' echoed ,lysis#8you call that a small number4' #8,no1' ,i said1 #8but the ,americans do1 and if you had been among them you would realize that it is indeed a heroic sacrifice that they make in opposing the common tendency and remaining small4' #8,and how are they to help us8' #8,why1 in the first place we shall find1 ,i think1 the best material for our guardians among the pupils there1 and secondly we can use these colleges as nurseries and training grounds for assistants for our guardians4 ,or do you not think they will need assistants in their task of giving a changed outlook to the ,americans8' #8,indeed1 yes1 ,socrates4' #8,and another thing we will altogether change is the great variety of the instruction4 ,for that the ,americans have no idea of the purpose of education is seen in the way they provide courses of instruction in everything1 even in the things that will only fit a man for low and base employments4 ,the student hurries from course to course and becomes acquainted with the preliminaries of many studies but is advanced in none4' #8,we will keep our guardians to a few studies1' said ,lysis4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8and they will have to be very different studies4' #8,what will be the first great change8' he asked4 #8,why1' ,i answered1 #8as it seems to me1 the first thing to destroy is their superstitious reverence for what they call facts and their contempt for ideas4 ,for they will often talk as if ideas were less real than facts1 instead of more real4' #8,what are these facts8' #8,they may be anything4 ,lists of names1 and long technical words are accepted as facts4 ,the biggest fact is the ,divine ,fact1 ,progress1 which they worship4' #8,might not that be called an idea8' #8,you might say so1 ,lysis1' ,i answered1 #8but ,i would advise you not to do so1 for the ,americans dearly love ,progress and will not tolerate your insults4' #8,is not evolution another favourite fact8' asked ,agathon4 #8,why1' ,i said1 #8some cherish it as much as ,progress1 of which they say that it is the explanation4 ,but others say that ,progress presides over the ,americans by the special wish of the divine powers1 as a reward for their virtues4 ,and these say evolution is a lie4 ,but neither party will be content to say it is a theory4' #8,and facts are what they teach in their colleges8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8for they have heard that knowledge is power1 and they desire power1 and they think that knowledge consists of information4' #8,i have seen them myself1 ,socrates1' said ,agathon1 #8running about as students1 boasting of the number of courses they could take and of the daily information that they could gather into notebooks4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8they are complacent1 and are sure that when they have information they will instinctively act wisely and well4 ,for we must remember that in a democracy men love to think they themselves are deciding the great questions of life and of the ,state4 ,and in ,america they are very much on their dignity in this1 being resolved to judge for themselves from the facts1 of which they love to speak1 and not to value the opinion of each other4' #8,except of experts1 ,socrates1' said ,agathon4 #8,indeed1 they value experts because experts1 they think1 know the facts4 ,and so two rules are to be observed carefully by all who would make the ,americans think one thing rather than another4 ,first you must call yourself an expert and second you must call everything you say the facts4' #8,and then all will go well with you8' asked ,lysis4 #8,indeed1 yes1 for none of them know anything about the matters in hand and so they are prepared to hear that the facts are anything in the world4' #8,well1 ,socrates1' said ,phaelon1 #8it sounds to me a fine pastime to go persuading these great herds of barbarians that ,persians are finer people than ,greeks4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8they could easily be made to believe that or any other piece of nonsense4' #8,would it not be fun8' said ,phaelon eagerly4 #8,i must do it4 ,nor will ,i fear the perils of the country4 ,i will go boldly among them as becomes a ,greek1 resisting their hold-up men with my sword and opposing their cars with my shield4' #8,you must take care1' ,i said1 #8that they do not fell you from behind with a card-index4' #8,card-index8' said ,phaelon2 #8what weapon is that8' #8,it is more than a weapon to the ,americans1' ,i said3 #8it is everything4 ,it is the symbol of their way of life and they intend shortly to put it on all their coins1 and stamps4 ,it is like a plank to a drowning sailor1 for by its means they survive in the great heaving oceans of facts with which they would otherwise be overwhelmed4 ,or you may think of them as a nation of ,ariadnes4' #8,that is certainly a more pleasant picture1' said ,agathon1 #8and for my part ,i will take care to think of them like that4 ,for as ,ariadne had a thread whereby her lover might find his way out of the ,labyrinth1 so have the ,americans card-indexes to prevent themselves from getting wholly lost in the modern world4' ,at this ,phaelon exclaimed3 #8,i should dearly love to see what was inside a card-index4' #8,that would not be easy1' ,i answered4 #8,for they are compiled with great solemnity and reverence and are the nearest things in ,america to sacred objects4 ,the ritual of compilation is the chief way of practising efficiency and so of worshipping ,progress4' #8,but what is on the cards8' insisted ,lysis4 #8,the most sacred things of allentrancing statistics and ,the ,facts1 and all the things that ,modern ,science teaches4' #8,tell us1 ,socrates1 who is this ,modern ,science8' #8,a divine priestess1' ,i answered1 #8who is invoked in all difficulties1 whose words are received with great reverence1 and that though her oracles are more than usually incomprehensible and fickle and her words long and horrible4 ,but she is dear to the ,americans because she speaks principally about machines1 and tells them there shall be more and more of them1 and an increasing number of parts in each4' #8,and does she speak true things8' demanded ,lysis4 #8,she knows about machines and the substances of the earth1 and so the ,americans find her 8practical10 a word of supreme praise1 and in consequence are forever seeking to make her speak on other matters where she has no gift of utterance4 ,they seek encouragement in their beliefs about themselves and insist upon an answer about their race till in self-defence she takes refuge in gibberish4' #8,that is a disappointment to them1' said ,lysis4 #8,in no wise1' ,i answered1 #8for each can twist her answer to his desires4 ,and she is surrounded by people crying that they have heard her voice and they alone1 and using her authority for their own views4 ,it is from this babble of tongues that the facts for the card-indexes are derived4 ,but we will train our guardians never to use such things and to consider them only fit for slaves4' #8,we will1' they said4 #8,for their studies will not be the acquisition of information1 which is a training in acquisitiveness and due to the hunger of their souls for quantity4 ,they acquire information as a second best until they can acquire wealth4 ,but our guardians will study those matters which satisfy the reason and those which elevate the soul4 ,now these studies are many4' #8,you have described such studies many times1 ,socrates1' said they all4 #8,and do you not agree8' #8,we agree1' said they all again4 #8,and shall we1' ,i asked them next1 #8permit our guardians to live in sisterhoods and sororities as they like to do to-day8' #8,do the young ,american women live much in sisterhoods8' asked ,phaelon1 #8for ,i have read of sisterhoods and of convents1 and the great principle of the life is to have nothing whatever to do with men4' ,i reassured ,phaelon4 #8,an ,american sorority is not at all like that4 ,but ,i think we shall have to say that no men may go near these sororities where we are training our guardians1 at least till our guardians have reached thirty-five4 ,for the men are a great distraction4' #8,yes1' said ,agathon1 #8we don't want any young ,american men1 for they are excellent to carry out what they are told but they will never make philosophers4 ,they will correspond indeed to that warrior class which you provided for in your ideal state1 but there will be this difference that they will not often be called upon to fight and that their chief duties will be in the ordinary administration1 arranging for food and other necessities1 and holding the various positions in commerce4' #8,is commerce still to continue8' said ,phaelon4 #8,we must allow it1' ,i said1 #8the ,americans being what they are1 but we will take care that it receives no particular honour4' #8,very well1' he said1 #8but how are we to keep the women from the men8' #8,we must bring them all to ,athens1' ,i said4 ,at this ,agathon leaned forward eagerly and exclaimed3 #8,and it is agreed that ,i am to select the guardians1 and ,i will bring them to ,athens and will myself superintend their training4 ,and when we get a new generation ,i will superintend the later stages of their training1 from fifteen to thirty-five1 while you1 ,socrates1 who are so patient and good with the young shall take charge of them till they are fifteen4' #8,indeed1' ,i said4 #8,yes1' he said1 #8,i consider that as settled4' #8,but ,i am troubled with a difficulty1' said ,lysis1 #8and one which may put out all ,agathon's fine plans1 for ,i do not see how we can educate them in ,athens4' #8,how not8' said ,agathon angrily4 #8,why1' said ,lysis1 #8if they come here they will meet the ,greek men and will see that there are beings much superior to themselves and lose their belief in themselves1 and fall into despair and pine away4' #8,we will unbend1' said ,agathon4 #8,even so1 my excellent friend1' ,i said1 #8,i think ,lysis speaks truly3 it will not be good for guardians to grow up among people so much superior to themselves4 ,for they will have to rule a race of untravelled and completely self-confident people1 and they will never do it if they are doubtful of themselves4' #8,i can loosen the knot of difficulty1' said ,agathon3 #8,i will build my college a little way out of ,athens1 and when you come to give them your instructions you shall be concealed by a partition and ,i will say you are the gods themselves4 ,nay1 there is a machine called the broadcast in use in ,america itself which enables men to practise useful deceptions of that kind4' #8,i think not1 my friends1' ,i said4 #8,they have suffered already from being told that too abundantly1 and ,i think it will be best to tell them a myth while they are in their cradles1 saying they are the children of the people of ,atlantis1 and the sisters in some sort of the ,greeks4' #8,better say cousins1' corrected ,agathon4 #8,the cousins1 then1 of the ,greeks4 ,and then they shall learn with the pride of our own youth and maidens both gymnastic and music and all the other studies which we agreed to be necessary for our guardians4' ,here ,lysis said3 #8,there is still one small matter to be resolved3 ,how are you going to get your guardians1 and the first supply of young girls to train8 ,for their men will not part with them4' #8,that is easy1' ,i said1 #8as they are ,americans1 and the men do not control the women4' ,lysis looked puzzled3 #8,but surely the mothers control the daughters1 at any rate when they are very young4' #8,why1 no1' ,i said1 #8that rarely happens either4 ,we will invite such of the young girls as seem to us to be the best endowed by nature and to be likely to make good guardians and to be susceptible of education1 no matter whether they be five or fifteen1 and they will come if we convince them1 whatever the parents may think4 ,for ,i assure you that their parents have no power over them at all4' #8,really1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8,i cannot believe that some of these great women of the ,middle ,west do not rule their children by terror as well as their husbands4' #8,if we find that to be so1' ,i said1 #8and some of the presidents of these ,women's ,clubs are indeed so overpowering that it may well prove to be the case1 we can easily convince the parents by a few statistics4 ,we will tell them that the liver corrodes and that metabolism is inhibited unless the years from fifteen to thirty-five are spent in ,athens4 ,and as that will be ,science that we are telling them they will send their children to ,athens4 ,for they all honestly desire the well-being of their children1 even those who are permanent presidents of their clubs4' #8,we may take it1 then1 ,o ,socrates1' said ,agathon1 eagerly1 #8that the young women will be here soon4' #8,and when they are here1' ,i said1 #8they shall live in sororities as they do to-day4 ,and ,i think their present sororities are a foreshadowing of their life here1 and that now they do what they can1 but live in a dark cave compared with the bright sunlight of their coming existence4 ,to-day they know little ,greek1 three letters being the general standard1 but soon they will speak and think in ,greek all the time4' #8,and when we have educated them1' asked ,lysis1 #8will it be a difficult matter for them to obtain authority to rule in ,america8' #8,well1' said ,agathon1 #8it will be easy if they have enough money4' #8,that will be easy1' ,i said1 #8for they will be trained to consider it their duty that each of them marries a millionaire4' #8,they will find that easy1' said ,agathon1 #8for ,i will be careful to instruct them in the arts of courtship4' ,lysis then asked3 #8,but when they have these funds at their command1 what will be the quickest way for them to persuade the ordinary ,americans to accept their rule8' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8they must proclaim a ,philosophy ,week1 for these weeks are not expensive to buy and they give you the right to worry people for seven days4' #8,and what shall they say8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,it will be simple enough1' ,i said4 #8,they must announce a new way to national and individual prosperity4 ,for prosperous peoples are forever looking for ways to prosperity4 ,and the adjective new recommends anything4' #8,and then1 ,socrates8' #8,and then they must proclaim that ,philosophy is the key to ,bigger and ,better ,business1 and must tell the story of ,thales1 who was a philosopher and easily outwitted the men of commerce of his day1 amassing a fortune in olive presses4' #8,but ,thales lived long ago4' #8,that must be kept dark1' ,i said2 #8but the story will throw a new light on philosophy and if the propaganda is well done every progressive business house will add to its staff a philosopher from ,greece4 ,and our guardians must go about persuading the women that there will be no real progress till ,congressmen are philosophers or philosophers ,congressmen4' #8,why yes1 ,socrates1' said ,agathon1 #8you shall yourself question the aspirants for ,congress and say which are truly philosophers and the guardians will persuade the populace not to vote for any of the others4 ,and you shall select trusty ,greeks who will hand over power to the guardians4' #8,it will take the fortunes of many husbands1' ,i said1 #8but in the end the guardians will control the central government1 and then they can do what they like with the country1 and make brave changes and substitute a noble rule for an ignoble one4' #8,it is important to lose no time1' said ,agathon1 #8in bringing the maidens to ,athens4 ,for the sake of saving the ,americans1' he added4 ,,book ,,vi #8,and are you resolved1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8not to give any sort of education to the ,american men8' ,i thought for a moment and then said3 #8,they are not comely like our ,greek youths and they would not be an ornament to ,athens4 ,i do not think they want any education4' #8,but1 ,socrates1' said ,lysis1 #8how are they to spend their time when they are young8' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8,i would let them go on watching that football game of theirs4' #8,what is that8' #8,it is a mimic battle dear to all their hearts1 and ,i would let them watch it all the day1 and ,i would not trouble their minds at all4 ,for to watch it will be the right education for them4' #8,watch it1 ,socrates8' demanded ,lysis4 #8,yes1 for it is played between coaches or chief men1 using young men as pieces4' #8,explain it to us1' they said4 #8,i will give you a fine lecture upon it1' ,i said2 #8and you will marvel that ,i know so much1 until ,i first confess that ,i went much among the young ,americans in the colleges from a desire to see into their minds1 and what ,i saw made it clear to me that ,america was rightly called the land of 8great open spaces40 ,for they spoke of nothing else at all but this football1 and cars1 and to a lesser extent1 of another form of contest called baseball4' #8,would you let them play baseball also8' asked ,lysis4 #8,if we do1' ,i replied1 #8,i expect we shall have to be quick to save it4 ,for many business men told me that the manufacturers will forbid it1 because it distracts their workmen from their factory tasks4 ,they purpose to substitute universal compulsory basket ball1 which will keep their workers fit but unexcited4' #8,is not football in danger8' said ,agathon4 #8,it is most completely a students' spectacle1' ,i answered1 #8and ,i think our guardians will be in time to save it1 and thus make their rule delightful to the young men4' #8,explain about this game1' said ,lysis1 #8and why you will still allow them to watch it4' ,then ,i told them of the field marked out in lines1 the gridiron and of the teams of sixty or seventy warriors a side1 of whom only eleven might do battle at any one time4 ,i described the armour of these warriors1 and how they were the widest and weightiest of all the young ,americans1 fit foemen for ,ajax or ,hector4 ,and ,i explained the discipline under which they lived and how the combinations were worked out by the coaches as a general prepares his campaign1 and how the men learnt over and over the cipher signs that told to each his part in the brief struggle4 ,and ,i told of the fine tradition that made it disgraceful to flee from the field or avoid the ball1 even for commercial benefits1 and ,i told of the heroes who preferred fierce hacks to the displeasure of their coach and death on the field to his being dismissed4 #8,it must be good fun being a coach1' said ,lysis4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8they are held in great honour provided they bring victory4 ,they do what they will with the minds and bodies of the students1 and the ,professors are proud to carry water for them4 ,often the chosen students are kept shut up by their coaches before any great battle1 lest their minds should be disturbed4 ,that will be a good similitude for us to use when we are moving the young girls to ,athens4 ,for we deserve as great privileges as games coaches4' #8,but in these contests1' said ,lysis1 #8only a few can be used4 ,what is the education of the vast majority8' #8,they cheer to order1' ,i replied4 #8,for the ,americans are a practical people and scheme that no single breath shall be wasted1 but shall be used where it will be most effective4 ,moreover the game is so designed that the better it is played the more difficult is it for the onlooker to follow the fortunes of the ball1 the players struggling in a great bunch1 pushing against one another4 ,there must be some heralds to tell the crowd which player has been pushing hardest that he may be rewarded with a loud shout4' #8,but is shouting like that really the best education8' asked ,lysis1 #8for you will have to say a lot more to convince me4' #8,have you not often agreed with me1 ,lysis1 that it is in youth one learns most easily8' #8,i agree4' #8,and that it is good to master early those activities which are to fill our after-lives8' #8,very often it is good4' #8,and if you had to describe in one sentence the civic life of an ,american could you do it better than by saying he spent his life shouting in chorus praise or blame about things he did not understand at the bidding of leaders8' #8,it is true4' #8,then1 can he begin too early to shout with the crowd8' #8,he cannot4' #8,for if he is by nature incapable of philosophy he must be led1 and he must be brought up to expect to feel to order without asking what it is about which he is to be enthusiastic1 and without expecting to understand the details of the struggles his leaders are conducting4' #8,i agree4' #8,and for that there is nothing better then these football games4 ,for men who obey coaches and cheer leaders now will be ready to obey our guardians later on4' #8,i think so4' #8,and they enjoy this football of theirs a great deal more than they enjoy the lectures and other parts of college life1 so that they will agree very happily to cheer football all the time4' #8,but1' said ,agathon1 #8,i hear the friends of peace are resolved to prohibit the football game1 because it arouses admiration for martial qualities4' #8,the friends of peace will fail1 my friends1' ,i said4 #8,for freedom from foreign wars reigns among the ,americans from their position rather than their disposition4 ,the only people who have ever invaded them are the ,english4 ,but now it is the other way about4' #8,i believe1' said ,agathon1 #8that to-day the ,english and the ,americans are very well disposed toward one another4' #8,they are1' ,i answered4 #8,their friendship is much the chief friendship among barbarian peoples4 ,for the ,english regard the ,americans as their country cousins1 living in the backwater of the ,new ,world and out of touch with ,london life1 but pleased to come and gape4 ,and they consider them as country cousins with a very rich farm1 from which they and their neighbours often receive eggs1 and they are careful to keep as friendly as they can4 ,for they imagine the ,americans to be much like themselves1 but without their advantages4' #8,by advantages do they mean the nearness to ,athens8' said ,phaelon4 #8,yes1' ,i said slowly3 #8,if you search the matter to the bottom it comes to that1 for the ,english are the link between ,athens and ,america4' ,then ,phaelon said3 #8,is it true1 ,socrates1 that the ,english and the ,americans speak the same language8' #8,no4' #8,but1' went on ,phaelon1 puzzled1 #8they understand each other after a fashion1 do they not8 ,do they use their hands to speak with8' #8,only in ,new ,york4' #8,socrates speaks truly1' said ,agathon1 #8but ,new ,york is where the ,englishmen go who visit ,america4 ,they stay in or near ,new ,york4 ,for they do not like to get far from the sea which is the source of their strength4 ,they love the deep waters4' #8,yes1' ,i said4 #8,and the strong waters1 too1 ,socrates1' added ,agathon1 #8and that is another reason why they like ,new ,york and are reluctant to go far inland4 ,for they dread having to keep up long lines of communication4' #8,well1' ,i said1 #8they would be very safe in ,kentucky4' #8,and what happens when the ,englishmen visit ,america8' demanded ,lysis4 #8,why1' ,i answered1 #8they are surprised it is not more like ,england1 and at once complain2 and many are offended that the ,americans are not more like the ,english1 and say so1 for they are subjected to torture to make them say what they think4' #8,what is the torture8' cried ,phaelon4 #8,they call it the ,third ,degree1 and it consists in endless interrogation4' #8,could you not get such a post as torturer in ,america1 ,socrates8' asked ,lysis4 #8,there was talk of it1' ,i said1 smiling at him1 #8but ,i cast the proposal from me as cruel4 ,anyway the ,americans question their visitors day and night1 saying3 8,what do you think of us80 till in the end the visitors confess4' #8,and then there is a war8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,no1' ,i said1 #8they just stop the mouths of such visitors with pie4' #8,remember1' ,i resumed1 #8that to visit ,america is the most expensive thing an ,englishman can do1 and so it is only rich and leisured ,englishmen who travel there4 ,and these men do not admire commerce1 for though their fathers or perhaps themselves have grown rich by it1 yet it has always been rated at its proper value in ,england4 ,it has always been the means to the leisured life4 ,furthermore the ,englishman is not impressed by the very things that the ,american thinks will impress him4 ,for the ,english do not admire size or reverence bigness4 ,they were not used to admire the ,spaniards or the ,french or the ,germans in the past for being twice as many as they1 and for having splendid courts and great armies and public works4 ,nor is there any sight in ,england more comical than to behold the rich and vulgar cosmopolitans1 who have bought a share in their government1 attempting to arouse an audience of ,englishmen to enthusiasm for their own ,british ,empire just because it is so very big4 ,but the ,americans will point to a crowd of offices or cars and feel happy in the knowledge that their country is shouting for itself4 ,now the ,english discover in the ,americans most excellent hosts1 for they are the most generous of all the barbarians1 but the more grateful the ,english are1 the more criticisms do they express1 finding it intolerable that the hosts they like so much should go on pouring out admiration on useless things and prostrating the soul before number and quantity4' #8,and what happens when the ,americans come to ,england8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,that happens a great deal more often4 ,the ,english enjoy that4 ,they feel very superior when they show to the ,americans the cathedrals and castles of their country4 ,they act as if they had built these things themselves1 whereas1 in fact1 the dead who built them were as much the ancestors of the ,americans as of the ,english4 ,but the ,english are the elder branch that has inherited the place4 ,the buildings the modern ,english themselves put up they do not point out with pride to anybody1 and those that their fathers and grandfathers built they cover over1 when they can1 with great cloths4 ,but many ,americans are forever wandering to these new buildings and are filled with joy that they build such places larger and better4 ,for the pleasure of travelling in ,europe is spoilt for them by the thought that their hosts do not know what a wonderful place ,america is1 and they are forever bringing it into the conversation4 ,then they grow happy again1 but their hosts less happy4' #8,but it is the old things that they think they want to see1' said ,agathon4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8they want to see ,europe because they themselves came from it originally4' #8,they do not go to ,mesopotamia1' said ,agathon1 #8though they believe they came originally from somewhere there4' #8,it is curious1' ,i said1 #8but none of them boast of belonging to one of the first families of ,mesopotamia4 ,they want distinctions that are rarer than that4 ,they get more pleasure from thinking their ancestors had seats in the ,mayflower than from thinking they had seats in the ,ark1 though both voyages were what they call exclusive cruises4' #8,and have they a special affection for the island of ,england8' asked ,lysis4 #8,why yes1 most of the rich ones came originally from there1' ,i said4 #8,well1 why do they not buy it8' he demanded4 #8,many think that will happen in time1' ,i replied1 #8or at least that they will purchase all the surface to a depth of forty feet1 for that is the earth upon which ,english history has happened1 and that they will lay out the island in their western districts by ,yellowstone ,park1 where there is plenty of room for it4' #8,is it true' asked ,phaelon1 #8that the ,english will be forced to sell1 ,socrates1 and that they can only live at all by getting the ,americans to come and look at their country8' #8,i thought1' said ,agathon1 #8the ,english had a great many factories like the ,americans4' #8,why1' ,i replied1 #8what has happened to the ,english is one of the most ironical things in the world4 ,for during many years they have sacrificed their old and pleasant life to attain mechanical efficiency1 and they have made the northern half of their little island dreary with factories and blotted out its sky with smoke4 ,they said3 ,here are our riches1 and in the name of wealth we must desecrate the land4 ,but do you1 ,o ,lysis and ,phaelon1 observe the justice of what is happening to them4 ,their factories have grown a burden to them1 and a problem and source of quarrels and poverty4 ,and their real wealth lies in what is still preserved of the old ,england4' #8,why1 ,socrates8' #8,because the ,americans will pay to see it and will not pay to see the factories4' #8,is their position so desperate8' #8,no' ,i said1 #8if we are seeking the truth we must declare that it is not so desperate as the ,americans imagine for the ,americans forget that the ,english are in partnership with the ,scotch4' #8,who are the ,scotch8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,i should call them the guardian class in ,britain1' said ,agathon4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8they watch over the ,english and they have a great empire all over the world4' #8,and the ,english are allowed to share in this ,empire8' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8by the terms of the partnership which was by far the most important event in the economic history of the ,english4 ,for this ,empire is very large and rich4' #8,and did the ,scotchmen win it by the sword8' was ,phaelon's next question4 #8,indeed no1' ,i replied4 #8,in fact ,englishmen and ,irishmenyou have heard of them8' 7,both ,lysis and ,phaelon nodded vigorously and ,lysis said #8,of course1' in such a tone that ,i felt ashamed of the foolish query47 #8,englishmen and ,irishmen1' ,i went on1 #8were rather more prominent in those first stages4 ,but it was the ,scotchmen who made the ,empire pay4' #8,and after all1' said ,agathon1 #8that was the real point in having an ,empire4' #8,and they built up a great trade with everybody and prospered greatly1' ,i said1 #8the ,scotch and the northern ,english particularly4 ,and these two together1 when they go abroad to gain money1 call themselves the ,british4 ,but they make the mistake of thinking their activities will go on being profitable for ever4 ,they think that because all the world1 even ,greece1 has bought from them in the century past1 the relationship will continue4 ,but ,i believe otherwise1 and that this foreign trade will be their destruction1 and that they are selling the swords which will pierce their own bodies4' #8,how1 ,socrates8' #8,why1' ,i said1 #8whoever deals with them finds that they have nothing to give of the amenities of living4 ,they do not sell you marbles1 or statues1 or wine1 but coal and machinery4 ,and if you buy these things you find they start industry in your own country also4 ,for of all newcomers to a country machinery is the most tenacious of its own character and the most certain to make its new home resemble its old one4 ,an ,italian will make ,italy again in ,new ,york1 and a machine will make ,sheffield in the furthest ,indies4' #8,and is that really all the ,british offer the world8' exclaimed ,lysis4 #8,they will not last long according to my opinion4' #8,no1' ,i said1 #8for it will be realized that these iron machines of theirs are a more deadly threat to the life of a city than was the ,wooden ,horse himself4' #8,by ,hercules1 yes6' they agreed4 #8,if the ,british had desired wholly to destroy and change ,troy they would not have come with besieging armies4 ,they would have sent some machinery and divided the rich against the poor by holding out promises of all the machines would do to make life pleasanter for the rich4 ,and in fewer years than ten1 the walls of ,troy would have disappeared4 ,the city would have vanished as though it had gone up in vengeful smoke4 ,indeed it would continue smoking not for a few days1 in the manner of ,greek destruction1 but indefinitely1 with chimneys to insult and dwarf the lofty towers of ,ilium1 if this industrial system of theirs did not make chimneys of the very towers themselves4' #8,the ,british1 as it seems to me1 are most dangerous1' said ,lysis4 #8,but1' said ,agathon1 #8they also offer the world other things beside machinery and the coal to feed it with4 ,wool4' #8,the sheep's clothing of the fable1' ,i said1 #8and a snare and one in which you soon discover the wolf1 as many a simple barbarian race has found4 ,buy from them one commodity only and you find that they use the money you pay them in a very alarming way4 ,they use it to develop your country4' #8,how8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,why1' ,i said1 #8they make you spend the money you owe them in putting yourself in a position to supply others with some commodity or other1 so that you can buy more and more from the ,british4 ,in this manner they have changed the face of half the world4 ,those who buy little from them they term 8backward peoples40' #8,i am sorry for the barbarian world1' said ,lysis1 #8with these two great barbarian races1 the ,british and the ,american1 invading the rest in this cunning way and weaving snares about them4' #8,lysis1' ,i said1 #8while you feel so full of pity1 pity also the ,british4 ,for ,i said that what they do they can only do for a certain time4' #8,how8' #8,why1' ,i explained1 #8their prosperity depends upon being able to persuade other peoples to buy these goods of theirs4' #8,yes4' #8,but those who agree eagerly and buy machines and make railways become1 in proportion as they are eager and active1 independent of the ,british and manufacture everything for themselves1 as happens in their own colonies1 while the others1 not sharing these ideals1 neglect the machines and remain poor and can neither pay for what they have had nor buy anything fresh4 ,against this second class1 who are found largely in the other or southern ,americas1 the ,british merchants have a strong prejudice4' ,after pondering for a moment1 ,lysis said3 #8,it seems to me the ,scotch must be very like the ,americans4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8but when the ,scotch first set out to grow rich and important they had themselves to please a guardian class that valued learning1 and so they learnt to value it too4 ,whereas there was no class that the ,americans had to please4 ,but1 in general1 there is much in common between the ,americans and the commercial people of ,scotland1 and those also of the ,north of ,england1 who agree with the ,scotch about life4 ,of them we may say with the poet3 8,nursed in so harsh a clime what shouldst thou know of good80 #8,and these make the settlers the most acceptable to the ,americans4' #8,why do they not all go there1' said ,phaelon2 #8,i do not like to think of them so near ,greece4' #8,the men of ,south ,england1 on the other hand1 find it very useful to have these ,scots and northerners in the same island4' #8,why8' #8,well1' ,i said1 #8the southern ,english live a life that is almost reasonable1 inquiring into things1 and pondering upon them1 and amusing themselves with games1 and1 whenever possible1 sitting in the sun4 ,those men who are both rich and sensible settle in ,south ,england4' #8,is their pondering good pondering8' demanded ,lysis4 #8,why no1' ,i said1 #8for they like to begin and end in the middle of all questions4 ,it is difficult to muddle through in philosophy4' #8,how do they live1 apart from what they get from the ,americans8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,some make these northerners pay them rents but a large part are concerned one way or another1 ,i am afraid1 in the business of their great city of ,london4' #8,what is that8' #8,it is doing the business of other people for them1 because it will be done better than they could do it themselves4 ,even the ,athenians use the city of ,london4' #8,what is the secret of this ,london business8' asked ,phaelon4 #8,there is a special climate in ,london1' ,i answered1 #8which has the property of making every man feel that he is ruined4 ,and no one is ever distracted from minding his affairs by beholding the sun or the sky1 whose contemplation has ever led men to philosophy4 ,so they do business there in a very careful and concentrated way4' #8,but you say1' said ,lysis1 #8that they do not come like the ,americans to consider commerce the end of life8' #8,no1' ,i said1 #8for the ,americans do their business where the climate makes them over-sanguine and they become filled up with the hope of gain and cheerfully sacrifice everything else to the excitement of the contest4 ,but the ,londoners regard their business hours as the scraping of a subsistence and skilful avoidance of starvation1 and flee from the city every evening4 ,and they live in homes surrounded by other influences than that of commerce1 and by the marks of the partial civilization to which ,south ,england has attained4 ,but when they are at business they do about as much mischief to the rest of the world as do the ,americans4' #8,ought we not to hope1' said ,lysis thoughtfully1 #8that the football game will in fact make the ,americans very warlike1 and that they will attack the ,english and ,scotch8' #8,why1 ,lysis8' #8,that the great barbarian peoples may destroy each other and that the rest of the world may be freed from the aggression of their industrial life4' #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8it might well be the best thing that could happen4 ,but they are more likely to combine forces in order to industrialize the rest of the world4 ,and though they are very different people yet bonds of similarity are growing up1 for machinery sets its stamp upon souls1 and the same machines will in the end produce the same souls4 ,to take but one instance1 among both peoples there has grown up the love of the ,dark ,cave4' #8,what is the ,dark ,cave8' asked ,lysis and ,phaelon together4 #8,you tell me1' ,i said1 #8that you remember the ideal state that ,glaucon and others worked out with me8' #8,yes1' said ,lysis1 #8it has often been spoken of since4' #8,well1' ,i said1 #8,i there pictured the unhappy lot of men sitting huddled together in a dark place1 condemned all to look in the same direction and to watch phantoms and shadows of men as though they saw something real4' #8,i remember4' #8,and ,i pitied such men1 condemned to the contemplation of unreality1 and sought1 you remember1 how they might be rescued and brought out into the sunlight and might learn to see men as they were4' #8,you thought1' said ,lysis1 #8no lot could be more wretched for reasonable men4' #8,well1' ,i said1 #8the ,americans and the ,english are not reasonable and will pay money to be imprisoned in these caves1 and to contemplate lies and live altogether in a false world4 ,this is making them one1 for the greatest bond of union is to share a common experience4' #8,have you ever penetrated into a ,dark ,cave1 ,socrates8' asked ,phaelon in excitement4 #8,it was the end of my ,american adventures1' ,i answered4 #8,for ,i endeavoured to save men from entering these ,caves1 reasoning and expostulating with them1 asking them why they would give their substance to be so misled about life4' #8,and what happened1 ,socrates8' #8,alas1 my friends1' ,i answered1 #8,i was considered disgraced for attacking 8our ,american ,movies40' #8,and in the end1 ,socrates1 ,i suppose you were deported8' demanded ,lysis4 #8,what else1 indeed1' ,i answered4 #8,what1 then1 did they say to you8' #8,that ,i had lied in filling in my answers to those first questions that all must answer who would receive a passport4 ,for they said ,i had plainly intended to subvert the government of the ,united ,states1 and that they found1 after inquiry from various publications1 that ,i had been in prison4 ,and the inspector added that ,i had been in an asylum also1 for that ,i came from ,europe1 and the ,balkans at that1 which he considered to be nothing less than a madhouse4' #8,and do you think1' said ,agathon1 #8they will read your views about them8' #8,i think so1' ,i answered1 #8for they find the topic of themselves of much interest4 ,but ,i do not expect them to profit by what ,i say1 for even ,xantippe is handicapped in their regard by belonging to the past4 ,for they do not admire the past at all1 nor is the word 8ancient0 ever used as praise4' #8,do they despise all history8' asked ,lysis4 #8,yes1' ,i said1 #8and they love the utterance of their ,detroit ,oracle1 when he said ,history is bunk1 and they regard him with increasing honour as he says these things and as the ,europeans have given to ,aristotle the title they think honourable1 calling him the ,master of them that ,know1 though they do not add how little1 so the ,americans hail the ,detroit ,oracle as the ,master of them that ,guess4' #8,but1' said ,lysis1 #8though they despise even the story of the ,greeks1 surely they are eager to know about ,rome1 for ,rome excelled also in size and great buildings and bridges and in buying culture from the ,east4 ,do they not feel great sympathy8' #8,no1' ,i replied1 #8and the priests and keepers of ancient tradition find the name of ,rome an embarrassment to them1 for the ,americans will have no respect for ,rome1 since they heard it was not built in a day4' #8,they have named a city after ,plato1' said ,agathon4 #8,they will name a city after anybody1' ,i answered1 #8and there are but few of their own citizens whom they do not desire to forget4' ,here ,agathon interrupted what ,i was going to explain about the cities1 and said3 #8,but ,i believe they think of changing the names of their cities into numbers and of numbering the ,states4 ,and some think it will help efficiency and be a compliment to themselves if they abolish the words ,united ,states and ,america and get everybody in all countries to call them ,one1 as being country ,number #a of the whole world4 ,but this compliment will cost many dollars4' #8,if only philosophy cost many dollars1' reflected ,lysis1 #8they would value it more4' #8,they would1' said ,agathon1 #8but as it is you must not despair1 ,socrates1 for your countenance is one that grows upon people4' #8,it grew upon me1' ,i said4 #8,we1' he said1 #8have had to get used to you1 and so it is perhaps with the ,americans and philosophy4 ,they will acquire the tastein time4' #8,anyway1' said ,lysis1 #8they ought to be grateful to you1 ,socrates1 for examining into what they think and do and value4' #8,i think so1' ,i replied1 #8for ,i am pointing out to them something of great moment to their happiness when ,i declare that unless they reopen the question of the end of living they will grow dissatisfied and exist wretchedly4 ,for they must not go on letting themselves be led by men with a low aim or no aim at all4 ,for the conditions of the future will not support the philosophy of 8making good0 as did the conditions of the past4 ,there is a point of view which suits a man or nation in the early struggle with poverty which becomes ridiculous when the struggle is past4' #8,many of them are beginning to think so1' said ,agathon4 #8,and ,i am beginning to think1' said ,lysis rising1 #8that we have considered these ,americans quite long enough1 and that we should now move to some other place and refresh ourselves1 and with new companions examine something else4' #8,i am of your mind2 ,lysis1' said ,phaelon1 and he also rose4 #8,i will accompany you1' ,i said4 #8,perhaps when the ,americans hear what we say of them they will change themselves of their own accord and become what we would like them to be4 ,and if this discussion of ours has that result it will be more useful1 ,i think1 than many of our talks4 ,but whatever happens we have done our best for these ,americans by telling them the truth4 ,for there are times when it is important to know the truth1 and life is one of them4' ,,the ,,end ,transcriber's ,notes3 ,text in italics is enclosed by underscores 7italics74 ,punctuation and spelling inaccuracies were silently corrected4 ,archaic and variable spelling has been preserved4