,transcribed from the ,william ,edward ,painter edition by ,david ,price1 email ccx#jgdpglaf4org ,picture3 ,cover of pamphlet ,,the ,,church ,,rate ,a ,,dialogue 99 99 99 99 99 ,,between ,a ,,churchman ,,and ,a ,,dissenter4 99 99 99 99 99 ,reprinted from 8,the ,village ,churchman40 99 99 99 99 99 8,,submit ,,yourselves ,,to ,,every ,,ordinance ,,of ,,man ,,for ,,the ,,lord',s ,,sake40--#a ,pet4 ii4 #ac4 99 99 99 99 99 ,,london3 ,,william ,,edward ,,painter1 #cdb1 ,,strand2 ,,and ,,all ,,other ,,booksellers4 99 99 99 99 99 ,price ,one ,penny1 or ,seven ,shillings per ,hundred4 ,,preface4 ,,the object of the following ,dialogue is to expose1 in familiar language1 the absurd arguments by which political ,dissenters attempt to justify their deeds of hatred against the ,established ,church1 and their union with ,papists and ,infidels--with every wild boar out of the forest of irreligion and error--in attempting to root up a vine1 under the shadow of which they have long reposed in security and peace4 ,several persons having expressed their approval of this ,tract1 the writer has been led to print this second and enlarged edition of it for general circulation1 omitting those local allusions which were introduced to make the work more interesting in his own neighbourhood1 and which succeeded in rendering its circulation extensive among those for whose information it was first printed4 ,he trusts that the plain arguments here brought forward1 may tend1 in some small degree1 to remove unfounded and ignorant prejudices against the ,established ,church1 believing it1 as he does1 to be the bulwark of our national ,christianity1 and the fortress of our civil and religious liberties4 ,,the ,,church ,,rate4 ,mr4 ,churchman4--,neighbour ,spinwell1 what in the world are you doing8 ,mr4 ,spinwell4--,i am beating up for recruits to attend the ,vestry ,meeting in defence of ,dissenting principles1 and conscientious scruples2 and to make a stand against ,church oppression4 ,mr4 ,c4--,i respect conscientious scruples2 but if ,dissent signifies ,religion with you1 it does not with me4 ,mr4 ,s4--,what6 ,do you mean to say that ,dissenters have no religion8 ,mr4 ,c4--,no4 ,but ,i say1 that what ,dissenters have of late years gained by their noisy and political strife1 they have more than lost in real piety1 and in the esteem of the wise and good4 ,mr4 ,s4--,but how many great and good men have been ,dissenters8 ,mr4 ,c4--,yes1--men who would not own you4 ,do you think that ,watts1 and ,doddridge1 and ,matthew ,henry would have joined with the noisy1 factious ,dissenters of our day8 ,would they have given 8the right hand of fellowship0 to men1 who1 in railing against the ,church and the ,state1 expose their own folly and irreligion8 ,mr4 ,s4--,be that as it may1 ,i say1 that ,i ought not to support a ,church to which ,i do not belong4 ,mr4 ,c4--,and does your saying it make it either law or gospel8 ,mr4 ,s4--,i say1 that oppression is contrary both to the ,law1 and to the ,gospel4 ,mr4 ,c4--,and so say ,i4 ,mr4 ,s4--,why1 then1 do you wonder at my making a stir1 when ,i am an oppressed and persecuted man8 ,mr4 ,c4--,many1 who pay the least1 often complain the most2 and though you feel yourself so grievously persecuted1 ,i dare say that your ,church-rate has never been more than two or three shillings a-year4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i do not care whether ,i pay two shillings or two pence4 ,i say1 that ,i ought not to pay to the ,church-rate1 and support a religion to which ,i do not belong4 ,mr4 ,c4--,nothing is more common than to hear a ,dissenter say 8,i ought not to pay to a religion to which ,i do not belong40 ,it sounds very plausible1 but there is no truth in it4 ,the fact is1 that you do not pay the ,church-rate as a ,dissenter1 nor do ,i as a ,churchman4 ,mr4 ,s4--,how do you make that out8 ,mr4 ,c4--,ages ago1 and long before there was a ,dissenter in this or any other town in ,england1 the property we occupy was made liable to the various expenses of the ,church2 and the annual charge is on the property we occupy1 and has therefore nothing to do with the religious opinions of those who occupy it4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i should very much like to know1 when ,church-rates began8 ,mr4 ,c4--,and so should ,i2 but this tribute has been paid to the ,church from such an early period1 that no one can tell when it began4 ,all ,i can tell you1 is this1 that the first record we have of its being levied1 is in the reign of ,edward ,,iii41 more than five hundred years ago4 #f ,mr4 ,s4--,if the payment is so ancient1 and a charge on the property we occupy2 having1 therefore1 nothing to do with the religious opinions of those who occupy it1 how is it1 then1 that so many persons are opposed to the ,church-rate8 ,mr4 ,c4--,men of hasty spirits--little knowledge--and less judgment--are too often led away by those who ought to teach them better4 ,your teachers know1 as well as ,i do1 that the ,church-rate being charged on the property1 the payment of it can affect no religious principle4 ,as ,i said before1 8it has nothing to do with either your religion or mine20 and if the churchwardens1 in days like the present1 had to stop and inquire at every door1 before they knocked1 what is this man's religion8--or1 has he any at all8--they need have nothing else to do4 ,nor is that all2 a ,protestant ,church would be turned into a ,popish ,inquisition1 and churchwardens into inquisitors6 ,mr4 ,s4--,but1 ,mr4 ,churchman1 how should you like to be compelled to pay a rate every year to our ,meeting8 ,you could not pay to it as a ,dissenter1 and you would not like to pay to it as a ,churchman4 ,mr4 ,c4--,if a law should be passed to-morrow1 charging my house in common with those of my neighbours1 with the repair1 c41 of your meeting1 ,i should pay the charge1 ,i hope1 as a ,christian1 submitting 8to every ordinance of man for the ,lord's sake0 7#a ,peter1 i4 #ac74 ,mr4 ,s4--,but would it not be an act of oppression to levy an annual payment on property1 which had always before been bought or rented free from such a charge8 ,mr4 ,c4--,though ,i could not but regard it as very different to a ,church-rate1 which has existed from time immemorial1 and subject to which all property is purchased or rented2 and though ,i might also consider it unreasonable to pay to one sect of ,dissenters rather than another2 yet1 ,i hope ,i should be one of the last men in the world to resist a charge made by the law of the land1 though made unjustly1 8,for this is thankworthy1 if a man for conscience toward ,god endure grief1 suffering wrongfully0 7#a ,pet4 ii4 #ai74 ,mr4 ,s4--,perhaps such conduct might be a proof of the sincerity of your ,christian principles1 though ,i can hardly admit that it would4 ,mr4 ,c4--,if it be a part of true religion to tread as far as we can in the steps of our ,divine ,redeemer1 ,i would ask1 has he not1 in this very particular1 set us an example which it is our duty to follow8 ,mr4 ,s4--,in whatever ,christ has set us an example1 ,i admit that we should follow his steps2 but ,i do not remember the instance to which you allude4 ,mr4 ,c4--,do you not recollect that our ,saviour1 though he had proved that he and his disciples were 8free0 from paying the tribute1 the ,church-rate #g;a demanded for the support of the ,jewish temple1 yet wrought a miracle for the payment of it1 lest they should offend by refusing it8 7,matt4 xvii4 #bd1 #bg74 ,mr4 ,s4--,what reason have you for calling the tribute paid by our ,saviour1 the ,church-rate8 ,mr4 ,c4--,because1 8the tribute demanded was not any civil payment to the ,roman powers--that was strictly exacted by the publicans2 but the ,church dues1 the half-shekel1 about fifteen pence1 which was required of every person for the service of the temple1 and the defraying of the expenses of the worship there3 and which our ,lord paid1 notwithstanding his #8,father's house was become a house of merchandize1 and a den of thieves4'0--,m4 ,henry4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i own1 that if an ancient and annual charge on property was to change with the religious opinions1 first of one occupier1 and then of another1 there would be great confusion1 and every rogue would cry out 8,i am a ,dissenter40 ,yet1 still1 ,i think1 that some respect should be shown to the principle of ,dissent4 ,mr4 ,c4--,i hardly know what you mean by the principle of ,dissent4 ,it was said1 not long since in the ,house of ,commons1 that 8,dissenters have always their ,dissenting principles1 and their conscientious scruples when they have money to pay1 but none when they have money to receive40 #g;b ,mr4 ,s4--,do you mean to insult me by casting such reflections on the ,dissenting body8 ,mr4 ,c4--,certainly not4 ,you and ,i are not going to quarrel after having known each other for more than five and-twenty years4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i belong to a body of consistent1 conscientious ,dissenters2 and you can say nothing against them4 ,mr4 ,c4--,do not boast too soon4 ,there are ,dissenters here and elsewhere who call the ,church-rate 8a dead robbery10 8a scandalous imposition10 8a vile extortion20 and yet when there is work to be done at the church1 these men1 so conscientious--so scrupulous as to where the money is to come from--are the first to send in their estimates to the churchwardens4 ,and what would they care if our ,church-rate was raised from fivepence to five shillings in the pound8 ,we know they have a deal to say when they have little or nothing to pay1 but when there is money to be received1 which has been raised by a ,church-rate1 then their ,dissenting principles1 and their conscientious scruples are lighter than a feather4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i confess that ,i cannot defend such persons1 for ,i like consistency4 ,but to turn our conversation to another subject4 ,i am quite prepared to maintain the excellence of the ,voluntary principle4 ,mr4 ,c4--,i know you ,dissenters like to talk about the ,voluntary principle4 ,they are two very fine long words1 the use of which is often flattering to the vanity of ignorant persons4 ,mr4 ,s4--,and pray1 what have you to say against the ,voluntary principle8 ,mr4 ,c4--,i do not wish to say much against it2 but ,i have yet a good deal to say against the inconsistency of your practice1 so directly opposed as it is to your fine speeches and avowed principles3 for ,i suppose you must have heard or read something about the ,regium ,donum4 ,mr4 ,s4--,regum ,docum6 ,what is that8 ,mr4 ,c4--,i did not say ,regum ,docum1 that is your ,latin1 not mine4 ,i said ,regium ,donum1 which means the royal bounty4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i am glad that we ,dissenters have nothing to do with money from the ,state4 ,for 8that is a poor religion which cannot support itself40 ,mr4 ,c4--,if so1 ,i think ,i shall prove that your's is a poor religion4 ,mr4 ,s4--,but what ,i say1 is1 this ,regum ,dose'em8 ,is it a sort of physic8 ,mr4 ,c4--,it is one of the cordials of ,dissent1 in the shape of an annual grant from the ,state4 ,it is a ,parliamentary grant to the three denominations of ,dissenters of about two thousand pounds a year out of the public taxes4 ,not a twentieth part of the sum is collected from ,dissenters1 and yet the whole finds its way into the pockets of those1 who1 if they acted according to their professed ,voluntary principle1 and conscientious scruples1 would honestly refuse it4 ,so that the ,voluntary principle seems to be one thing1 and ,dissenting consistency another4 ,mr4 ,s4--,do you know when this grant begun8 ,mr4 ,c4--,it was first given in the reign of ,george ,i41 as an act of his royal bounty4 ,but ever since the year #ahjc1 it has been received from the ,state--and it is a fact acknowledged by ,dissenters themselves1 that while they are protesting against all ,,state grants for religious purposes1 ,,ten ,,thousand ,,and ,,seventy ,,of ,,their ,,own ,,ministers in ,england and ,wales have participated in these grants in three years4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i really wonder how our great and good men can conscientiously pocket money from the ,state2 and ,i am surprised that none of them have had the honesty to refuse it1 and resolve to stand or fall on the ,voluntary principle4 ,mr4 ,c4--,to tell you the truth1 it has been objected to2 and in the year #ahcd1 at a meeting of the three denominations1 a vote was passed disapproving of the grant from the ,state1 as inconsistent with ,dissent1 and contrary to the ,voluntary principle4 ,mr4 ,s4--,well done6 ,mr4 ,c4--,it was well said1 but there was nothing well done4 ,there was a great deal of fine talking1 which all ended in nothing1 except the disgrace of continuing to pocket money1 after having recorded1 8that it is inconsistent with the principles of ,dissent1 and contrary to the ,voluntary principle40 ,mr4 ,s4--,well1 after all1 it is but a trifle6 ,mr4 ,c4--,i did not know that we were talking about trifles4 ,but it seems you can sell your ,dissenting principles for a trifle1 and give your conscientious scruples into the bargain4 ,mr4 ,s4--,there may appear to be some difficulty in reconciling the practice of receiving money from the ,state with the theory of the ,voluntary principle4 ,mr4 ,c4--,do you not see1 then1 that if ,dissenters can receive from the ,state two thousand pounds a year1 #i they might just as consistently receive two millions2 and do you not believe1 too1 that they would1 if they could get them8--,like the ,voluntary principle1 ,i begin to think that the ,church-rate is a subject upon which you have been sadly misled4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i had always been led to consider the payment of ,church-rates as affecting my religious opinions2 whereas1 ,i now see that it is not so2 and as for the ,voluntary principle1 really it seems to be1 like our independence of the ,state1 all a farce4 ,mr4 ,c4--,that is my opinion4 ,besides your dependence upon the ,state1 for money1 protection1 and liberty of conscience1 your ,independent ,ministers are dependent on their congregations2 and it is well known that they prefer a certainty to an uncertainty1 and never refuse1 from conscientious scruples1 a good legacy1 or any other sort of endowment which they can get4 ,indeed1 when it is convenient4 ,dissenting ,ministers can plead the uncertainty of the ,voluntary principle1 with all the eloquence which experience teaches4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i have long suspected that you had but little respect for ,dissent1 and now ,i find that you have none at all4 ,mr4 ,c4--,i think ,i have pretty clearly shown that none is due to it4 ,if1 however1 any proof be required1 look at ,dissenters walking arm in arm with ,papists to the political meeting1 or the parish vestry4 ,look at ,protestant ,dissenters hugging ,popery1 that old ,demon of idolatry1 superstition1 and wickedness--that monster of tyranny and oppression1 which their forefathers utterly abhorred4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i was for years a soldier in ,spain1 where ,popery only tolerates her own idolatrous worship1 not merely of images1 wafers1 and saints1 but also those precious relics of superstition1 old bones and rotten rags6 and as ,i know what ,popery is where she ,,can exercise her tyranny1 and that all her professions of liberalism are nothing but 8lies spoken in hypocrisy10 ,i must acknowledge that by joining such a companion ,dissent degrades herself in the respect and the esteem of all good men4 ,mr4 ,c4--,then ,i have a question to ask you4 ,if1 when you were beating up for recruits1 the ,papists had joined in your opposition to a ,protestant ,church1 pray how did you mean to act with your new allies8 ,mr4 ,s4--,i meant that they should march behind4 ,mr4 ,c4--,but suppose they would march before1 you could find but one way of getting out of your difficulty1 and that is1 by walking arm in arm together4 ,mr4 ,s4--,it is not unlikely but ,i might have found myself in some difficulty2 and so1 to say no more about it1 ,i will just remark1 that notwithstanding some proof of our connexion with the ,state1 ,i still think the ,bible requires that the ,state should have nothing to do with religion4 ,mr4 ,c4--,i know it to be the argument of modern ,dissenters1 that 8,kings0 are not to be the 8nursing fathers10 nor 8,queens the nursing mothers0 of the ,church2 but they learnt that1 not from the ,bible1 but from the authors of the ,french ,revolution4 ,we know that ,owen1 ,baxter1 ,henry1 ,watts1 and ,doddridge1 and many other pious ,dissenters of former days1 have maintained the direct contrary--they not only held the lawfulness1 but they knew something of the value1 yea of the absolute necessity of an established ,church4 8,if it comes to this 7says ,dr4 ,owen to the rulers of his day71 that you shall say1 you have nothing to do with religion as rulers of the nation1 ,god will quickly manifest that he hath nothing to do with you as rulers of the nation40 8,the ,state 7says ,baxter7 cannot stand secure without the ,church40 8,let us 7says ,matthew ,henry7 give ,god praise for the national establishment of our religion2 that ,christianity1 purified by the ,reformation1 is supported by good and wholesome laws1 and is twisted in with the very constitution of our country40 ,again he writes1 8,it is the duty of rulers to take care of religion1 and to see that the duties of it be regularly and carefully performed by those under their charge1 and that nothing be wanting that is requisite thereto40 ,and how can this be done without a national ,church1 which is responsible to the nation for that regular observance of public worship to which your meeting-houses are not8 ,mr4 ,s4--,but1 why will you not show respect to the opinion of modern ,dissenters--our ministers of the present day8 ,mr4 ,c4--,when your anti-corn law divines shall bear comparison with the pious and learned men ,i have named1 men who 8lived in all godly quietness10 it will then be time enough for me to consider their objections and yours too4 ,mr4 ,s4--,notwithstanding1 your great names1 and your great men1 ,i rest upon those striking words of our ,saviour1 8my kingdom is not of this world40--,john xviii4 #cj4 ,mr4 ,c4--,pray how do you apply them8 ,mr4 ,s4--,i apply them to the ,church as being 8of this world10 and to ,dissent as being not 8of this world40 ,mr4 ,c4--,and pray1 what right have you to sit in judgment1 and apply in condemnation of the ,church1 and in commendation of ,dissent1 words which have no application to either8 ,mr4 ,s4--,i maintain that this text does apply to the subject in hand4 ,mr4 ,c4--,it is easily proved that it does not4 ,an accusation was brought against our ,saviour1 8,we found this fellow perverting the nation1 and forbidding to give tribute to ,csar1 saying that he himself is ,christ1 a king40 ,our ,lord did not deny that he was a king1 but said1 that his kingdom was not of this world--that it was not an earthly sovereignty4 8,if my kingdom were of this world1 then would my servants fight1 that ,i should not be delivered to the ,jews40 8,but now 7as you may see by my servants not fighting71 is my kingdom not from hence10 that is 8not of this world40--,john xviii4 #cc1 #cf4 ,mr4 ,s4--,well1 admitting that you are right1 and that my view of the text is just as ignorant as it is common among ,dissenters1 would you not consent to abolish the ,church-rate on account of the opposition that is made to it8 ,mr4 ,c4--,most certainly not4 ,if on that principle the ,church-rate is abolished1 on the same convenient principle1 you might abolish every other kind of rate1 and at last refuse to pay to the ,state1 as well as the ,church4 ,mr4 ,s4--,i should now like to hear what you have to say against an annual subscription1 as the best way of raising the money wanted for your ,church4 ,mr4 ,c4--,it might do pretty well if your ,voluntary principle could be relied on4 ,but how can we rely on that which you are afraid to trust8--,nothing is more certain than the uncertainty of an annual subscription2 and if our old churches were made to depend on annual subscriptions to keep them up1 my opinion is1 they would soon fall into decay1 and this ,i suspect is the opinion too of you ,dissenters4 ,many of your ,dissenting meeting-houses have been sold1 and not a few of them have been converted into churches2--and why8 ,because they could not stand on their own ,voluntary principle4 ,mr4 ,s4--,really1 ,i feel as if you had knocked me and the ,voluntary principle both down together4 ,but have you any other objections to an annual subscription besides its uncertainty8 ,mr4 ,c4--,yes1 annual subscriptions generally fall exclusively upon those benevolent persons who give to everything2 whereas the ,church-rate obliges those selfish persons to bear their part who would not1 if they could help it1 do anything for the bodies or souls of their fellow-creatures4 ,mr4 ,s--,then1 you would have no annual subscriptions8 ,mr4 ,c4--,that is not my meaning4 ,sunday ,school1 and ,religious ,societies may be properly supported by annual subscriptions1 or congregational collections2 and what ,christian would like to miss such appeals to his charity8 ,mr4 ,s4--,to tell you the truth1 ,i begin to think that there is some wisdom in not allowing your venerable old churches to depend on the ,voluntary principle2 and that there is no great objection to raise money for the necessary expenses of the ,church by a rate1 which divides the burden among so many1 according to the property of each1 that it is hardly felt by any4 ,those who1 like our ,squire and other great men1 pay the most1 feel it perhaps the least4 ,really1 my scruples have almost vanished2 ,i fear they had but little foundation in religion1 reason1 or common sense2 and ,i shall go again to my wheel1 and let my neighbours see1 for the time to come1 that ,i have too much good sense to be again made the tool of a party4 ,mr4 ,c4--,mr4 ,spinwell1 #ab let me speak one word to you before we part4 ,days and weeks1 months and years1 like your wheel1 go round and round1 with wonderful rapidity1 but with this difference1 that you can stop your wheel1 whilst neither of us can stay the progress of time4 ,the thread of life is far spun both with you and me4 ,let me then advise you to leave the noisy 8potsherds of the earth0 to 8strive together10 how they may most effectually resist the payment of a few shillings a year1 in support of a ,church1 which the wisest and best of men have maintained to be so necessary to our national welfare4--,considering how the world is passing away with all its transient concerns1 let us pray for grace and strength to 8press towards the mark for the prize of our high calling of ,god in ,christ ,jesus10 that so we may meet at last in the paradise of ,god1 there to dwell in perfect love and everlasting peace4 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 ,william ,edward ,painter1 #cdb1 ,strand1 ,london1 ,printer4 ,,footnotes4 #f ,lambert has traced up ,church-rates to the laws of ,king ,ina1 in the seventh century4 #g;a ,so considered by ,dr4 ,gill1 and other ,dissenting ,expositors4 #g;b ,this was said in reference to their receiving the ,royal ,bounty4 #i ,the whole amount1 including the ,royal ,bounty to the ,dissenters of ,ireland1 is more than thirty thousand a year4 #ab ,mr4 ,spinwell is a rope-maker in the writer's parish4