,transcriber's ,note3 ,the text is divided into #e ,conferences and #da sections4 ,marginal notes indicating the start of individual sections have been converted into section headings4 ,other notes have been numbered and moved to the end of each ,conference4 ,they often refer to the following 7rather than preceding7 passage1 and if so are positioned accordingly4 ,the locations of the marker for ,note #ac1 and of the start of ,section #h1 are unclear3 they have been inserted in accordance with the sense of the text4 ,other markers that do not correspond to marginal notes have been removed4 ,the 99 that are retained in sections #aa1 #ac and #ah do not indicate marginal notes1 but instead function as bullet points4 ,variations in spelling have been retained with the exception of the following3 ,conference #a ,summary3 byass'd changed to bypass'd4 ,conference #b ,section #ag3 be-belief changed to belief and absolure to absolute4 ,conference #e ,section #cf enent changed to tenent2 ,section #cg ,athenasian changed to ,athanasian4 ,obscured text has been transcribed as follows3 ,conference #a ,section #h3 8her transcribed as ,luther4 ,conference #c ,section #ah3 the sentence beginning ,but if it be said has been reconstructed from the work cited4 ,conference #e ,section #cj3 the phrases not-conforming to and ,as to ,charity have been reconstructed4 ,at the beginning of ,conference #a a brace1 extending over several lines1 has been replaced by a column of individual braces4 ,italics are indicated by underscores and ,greek by plus signs4 ,when a word in italics is followed by 's the latter may or may not be italicised4 ,this inconsistency has been retained4 ,inconsistent hyphenation has also been retained4 ,the ,text has been corrected in accordance with the ,errata section4 ,mismatched brackets and parentheses have been removed and apparent punctuation errors corrected4 ,,the ,protestants ,plea ,,for ,a ,,socinian3 ,justifying ,his ,doctrine from being opposite to ,,scripture ,,or ,,church-,,authority2 ,and ,him from being ,guilty of ,,heresie1 or ,,schism4 ,in ,five ,conferences4 ,publish'd with ,allowance4 ,,london1 ,printed by ,henry ,hills1 ,printer to the ,king's ,most ,excellent ,majesty for ,his ,houshold and ,chappel4 #afhf4 ,,the ,first ,conference4 ,the ,socinian's ,protestant-,plea for his not holding any thing contrary to the ,holy ,scriptures4 #a4 ,that he believes all contained in the ,scriptures to be ,god's ,word2 and therefore implicitly believes those truths1 against which he errs4 4 #b4 #b4 ,that also he useth his best endeavor to find the true sense of ,scriptures3 and1 that more is not required of him from ,god for his ,faith or ,salvation1 than doing his best endeavour for attaining it4 4 #c4 #c4 ,that1 as for an explicite ,faith required of some points necessary1 he is sufficiently assured1 that this point concerning the ,son's ,consubstantiality with the ,father1 as to the affirmative1 is not so from the ,protestant's affirming all necessaries to be clear in ,scripture1 even to the unlearned2 which this1 in the affirmative1 is not to him4 4 #d4 #d4 ,that several express1 and plain ,scriptures do perswade him1 that the negative 7if either7 is necessary to be believed2 and that from the clearness of ,scriptures1 he hath as much certainty in this point1 as ,protestants can have from them in some other1 held against the common expressions of the former times of the ,church4 4 #f1 #h4 #e4 ,that1 for the right understanding of ,scriptures1 either he may be certain of a just industry used2 or else1 that ,protestants1 in asserting that the ,scriptures are plain only to the industrious2 and then1 that none are certain1 when they have used a just industry1 thus must still remain also uncertain in their ,faith2 as not knowing1 whether some defect in this their industry causeth them not to mistake the ,scriptures4 #f4 ,lastly2 ,that none have used more diligence in the search of ,scripture1 than the ,socinians1 as appears by their ,writings1 addicting themselves wholly to this ,word of ,god1 and not suffering themselves to be any way bypass'd by any other humane1 either modern1 or ancient ,authority4 4 #i4 ,where1 ,the ,protestant's1 and ,socinian's pretended ,certainty of the sense of ,scripture apprehended by them1 ,digress4 and made the ground of their ,faith against the sense of the same ,scripture declared by the major part of the ,church is examined4 4 #i4 4 #a4 ,to shew the invalidity of such a ,guide as ,protestants have framed to themselves for preserving the true ,faith1 and suppressing ,heresies1 hath for several years been the ,subject of divers ,modern ,pens3 ,but1 because ,instances and ,examples1 seem to some1 more weighty and convincing1 it is thought fit 7the more to awaken1 and the better to satisfie him7 here to let the ,reader see what ,apology a ,socinian 7who tho' denying the ,trinity1 and our ,saviors ,deity1 yet1 most zealously urges ,scripture1 and its plainness in all necessaries1 as if it justified his own ,errors2 or that he ,erred only in matters not necessary7 upon the ,protestant ,principles may return for himself to a ,protestant endeavouring to reduce him to the true ,faith and the ,nicene ,creed2 and using any of these five ,motives thereto1 viz4 ,the ,testimony of #a4 ,scripture4 #b4 ,catholic-,church-,authority4 #c4 ,councils1 with the ,danger and ,guilt of #d4 ,heresie1 and #e4 ,schism4 ,not intending hereby to equal all ,protestant ,opinions with the ,socinian2 but inferring that these ,pleas as relating to these ,motives will as rationally justifie the ,socinian as the ,protestant4 ,for1 suppose a ,protestant1 first1 concerning the ,scriptures1 question a ,socinian in this manner4 ,prot4 ,why do you1 to the great danger of your soul1 and salvation1 not believe1 ,god the ,son to be of one1 and the same essence1 and substance with ,god the ,father1 it being so principal an ,article of the ,christian ,faith1 delivered in the ,holy ,scriptures8 ,soc4 ,to give you a satisfactory account of this matter4 ,i do believe1 with other ,christians1 that the ,scriptures are the ,word of ,god2 and1 with other ,protestants1 that they are a perfect ,rule of my faith4 4 #b4 ,prot4 ,but1 this secures you not1 unless you believe according to this ,rule2 which in this point1 you do not4 ,soc4 ,however ,i believe in this point2 truly1 or falsly2 ,i am secure that my ,faith is entire1 as to all necessary points of ,faith4 ,prot4 ,how so8 ,soc4 ,because1 as ,m4 ,chillingworth saith#a--;,he that believes all that is in the ,bible1 all that is in the ,scriptures 7as ,i do7 believes all that is necessary there4 ,prot4 ,this must needs be true3 but mean while1 if there be either some part of ,scripture not known at all by you2 or the true sense of some part of that you know 7for1 the ,scripture1 as that ,author notes#b1 is not so much the words1 as the sense7 be mistaken by you1 how can you say1 you believe all the ,scriptures8 ,for1 when you say1 you believe all the ,scripture1 you mean only this3 that you believe1 that1 whatsoever is the true sense thereof1 that is ,god's ,word2 and most certainly true3 which belief of yours doth very well consist with your not believing1 or also your believing the contrary to the true sense thereof3 and then you1 not believing the true sense of some part of it at least1 may also not believe the true sense of something necessary there2 which is quite contrary to your conclusion here4 4 #c4 ,soc4 #c----;,i believe1 that that sense of them which ,god intendeth whatsoever it is1 is certainly true2 ,and thus ,i believe implicitely even those very truths1 against which ,i err4 ,next3 #d----;,i do my best endeavour to believe ,scripture in the true sense thereof4 ,by my best endeavour ,i mean#e1 such a measure of industry1 as humane prudence1 and ordinary discretion 7my abilities1 and opportunities1 my distractions1 and hindrances1 and all other things considered7 shall advise me unto in a matter of such consequence4 ,of using which endeavour also1 ,i conceive1 ,i may be sufficiently certain3 for otherwise1 ,i can have no certainty of any thing ,i believe from this compleat ,rule of ,scriptures2 this due endeavor being the condition1 which ,protestants require1 that ,i shall not be1 as to all necessaries1 deceived in the sense of ,scripture4 ,now1 being conscious to my self of such a right endeavor used3 #f----;,for me1 to believe1 further1 this or that to be the true sense of some ,scriptures2 or to believe the true sense of them1 and to avoid the false1 is not necessary1 either to my faith or salvation4 ,for1 if ,god would have had his meaning in these places certainly known1 how could it stand with his wisdom1 to be so wanting to his own will and end1 as to speak obscurely8 ,or how can it consist with his justice to require of men to know certainly the meaning of those words which he himself hath not revealed8 #g----;,for my error or ignorance in what is not plainly contained in ,scripture1 after my best endeavour used2 to say that ,god will damn me for such errors1 who am a lover of him1 and lover of truth1 is to rob man of his comfort1 and ,god of his goodness2 is to make man desperate1 and ,god a ,tyrant4 4 #d4 ,prot4 ,but this defence will no way serve your turn for all points of ,faith revealed in ,scripture3 for you ought to have of some points an express and explicite ,faith4 ,soc4 ,of what points8 ,prot4 ,of all those that are fundamental and necessary4 ,soc4 ,then if this point of ,consubstantiality of the ,son with ,god the ,father be none of the ,fundamentals1 and necessaries1 wherein ,i am to have a right and an explicite ,faith1 the account ,i have given you already1 ,i hope1 is satisfactory4 4 #e4 ,but next3 ,i am secure1 that this point1 which is the subject of our discourse1 at least in the affirmative thereof1 is no fundamental2 for1 according to the ,protestant principles #h----,the ,scripture is a ,rule1 as sufficiently perfect1 so sufficiently intelligible in things necessary1 to all that have understanding2 whether learned1 or unlearned4 ,neither is any thing necessary to be believed1 but what is plainly revealed3 for to say1 that when a place of ,scripture by reason of ambiguous terms lies indifferent between divers senses1 whereof one is true1 and the other false1 that ,god obligeth men under pain of damnation not to mistake through error1 and humane frailty1 is to make ,god a ,tyrant1 and to say that he requires of us certainty to attain that end1 for the attaining whereof we have no certain means4 ,in fine1 #i where ,scriptures are plain1 as they are in necessaries1 they need no infallible ,interpreter1 no further explanation to me2 and where they are not plain1 there if ,i1 using diligence to find the truth1 do yet miss of it1 and fall into ,error1 there is no danger in it4 ,prot4 ,true4 ,such necessary points are clear to the unlearned1 using a due ,industry1 void of a contrary interest1 c4 ,soc4 ,and in such industry ,i may be assured1 ,i have not been deficient1 having bestowed much study on this matter1 read the ,controversie on both sides2 compared ,texts1 c4 7as also appears in the diligent writings of others of my perswasion72 and after all this1 the sense of ,scripture also1 which ,i embrace1 7a sense1 you know1 decried and persecuted by most ,christians7 is very contrary to all my secular relations1 interest1 and profit4 4 #f4 ,now1 after all this search ,i have used1 ,i am so far satisfied1 that this point1 on the affirmative side1 is not clear1 and evident in ,scripture 7and therefore no ,fundamental7 that ,i can produce most clear and evident places out of the ,scriptures 7if a man can be certain of any thing from the perspicuity of its ,expressions7 that the contrary of it is so4 ,see ,crellius in the ,preface to his ,book ,de uno ,deo ,patre1----,hc de uno ,deo ,patre sententia plurimis1 ac clarissimis sacrarum literarum testimoniis nititur----,evidens sententi veritas1 rationum firmissimarum sacris literis spont subnascentium multitudo1 ingenii nostri tenuitatem sublevat1 c4----,argumenta1 qu ex sacris literis deprompsimus1 per se plana sunt1 ac facilia adeo quidem1 ut eorum vim declinare ali ratione non possint adversarii1 quam ut verborum simplicitate tum ipsi deflectant1 tum nos abducere conentur4 ,and see the particular places of ,scripture which they urge 7where1 as to the expression1 and other ,texts being laid aside1 that seems to be said1 as it were totidem verbis1 which the ,socinians maintain71 ,joh4 #ad4 #bh4 #ag4 #c4 ,ep4 #a ,cor4 #h4 #f4----;,col4 #a4 #ae4 ,rev4 #c4 #ad4 ,i set not down this to countenance their ,cause1 but to shew their ,confidence4 4 #g4 ,prot4 ,o strange ,presumption6 ,and is not your judgment1 then1 liable to mistake in the true sense of these ,scriptures1 because you strongly persuade your self1 they are most evident on your side8 ,soc4 ',tis true1 that ,i may mistake in the sense of some ,scripture2 but it follows not from hence1 that ,i can be certain of the sense of no ,scriptures4 ,to answer you in the words of ,mr4 ,chillingworth#aj----,tho' ,i pretend not to certain means in interpreting all ,scripture1 particularly such places as are obscure and ambiguous2 yet this methinks should be no impediment1 but that we may have certain means of not erring in1 and about the sense of those places which are so plain and clear1 that they need no ,interpreters2 and in such this my ,faith is contained4 ,if you ask me1 how ,i can be sure1 that ,i know the true meaning of these places8 ,i ask you again2 ,can you be sure you understand what ,i1 or any man else saith2 ,they that heard our ,saviour and the ,apostles ,preach1 can they have sufficient assurance that they understood at any time what they would have them do8 ,if not1 to what end did they hear them8 ,if they could1 why may not ,i be as well assured1 that ,i understand sufficiently1 what ,i conceive plain in their ,writings8 ,again2 ,i pray tell me1 whether do you certainly know the sense of these ,scriptures1 for the evidence of which you separated from the ,church that was before ,luther1 requiring conformity to the contrary ,doctrines1 as a condition of her ,communion8 ,if you do1 then give us leave to have the same means1 and the same abilities to know other plain places1 which you have to know these4 ,for if all the ,scripture be obscure1 how can you know the sense of these places8 ,if some places of it be plain1 why should ,i stay here8----#aa ,if you ask1 seeing ,i may possibly err1 how can ,i be assured ,i do not8 ,i ask you again1 seeing your eyesight may deceive you1 how can you be sure you see the ,sun1 when you do see it8 #ab ,a ,judge may possibly err in ,judgment1 can he therefore never have assurance that he hath judged rightly8 a ,traveller may possibly mistake his way2 must ,i therefore be doubtful whether ,i am in the right way from my ,hall to my ,chamber8 ,or can our ,london ,carrier have no certainty in the middle of the day1 when he is sober1 and in his wits1 that he is in his way to ,london8#ac--,this ,i am certain of1 that ,god will not require of me a certainly unerring belief1 unless he had given me a certain means to avoid error1 and if ,i use those which ,i have1 will never require of me1 that ,i use that which ,i have not#ad4----,this is ,mr4 ,chillingworth's solid ,plea1 against the ,papist's grand ,objection1 for the proving an uncertainty in the ,protestant's ,faith upon any their pretence of evident ,scripture4 ,sect4 #h4 ,prot4 ,but the ,scriptures1 which you urge against the ,son's being the same one only ,god with ,god the ,father1 carry not the same evidence and clearness1 as those ,scriptures do1 whereon ,protestants build the certainty of their ,faith against the ,papists1 or against the common ,church-,doctrines that were before ,luther4 ,soc4 ,that say the ,papists of your plain ,scriptures1 which you of mine3 ,i pray1 what can be said more plain1 or in what point1 in your ,opinion1 more fundamental 7wherein we contend ,scripture is most clear1 even to the unlearned71 than this1 in ,joh4 #ag4 #c4--,ut cognoscant te ,pater solum verum ,deum2 1 quem misisti1 ,jesum ,christum--,and1 #a ,cor4 #h4 #f4 ,unus ,deus1 ,pater2 unus ,dominus1 ,jesus4 ,and1 ,eph4 #d4 ver4 #e4 ,unus est ,dominus1 i4 e4 ,jesus2 and then1 ver4 #f4 ,unus est ,deus1 ,pater omnium--,and1 ,joh4 #ad4 #a4 ,creditis in ,deum1 in me credite----,and v4 #bh4 ,pater meus major me est4 ,i say1 what more clear for proving the ,father his being the true1 most high ,god1 and excluding the other ,persons the ,son1 or the ,holy ,ghost from being the very same ,god8 ,prot4 ,and #a4 what more clear1 on the other side1 than these ,texts1 ,rom4 #i4 #e4 ,of whom1 as concerning the flesh1 ,christ came1 who is over all1 ,god blessed for ever----,and1 ,tit4 #b4 #ac4 ,the glorious appearing of the great ,god1 and our ,saviour ,jesus ,christ4 ,and #ae--we are in him that is true1 even in his ,son ,jesus ,christ4 ,this is the true ,god and eternal life1 spoken by ,st4 ,john1 the great vindicator1 against ,ebion1 ,cerinthus1 ,carpocrates and other1 in his time1 opposers of our ,lord's ,divinity#af----;,and ,apoc4 #a4 #h4 compared with #a4 #ag4----;,i am ,alpha and ,omega1 the beginning and the ending1 which is1 and which was1 and which is to come1 the ,almighty8 ,i say1 what more clear than these ,texts1 for shewing the true ,deity of ,christ8 #b4 ,and then1 how many other clear ,texts are there1 asserting the ,eternity of our ,lord2 that he is nothing made or created1 but pre-existent before the constitution of the ,world2 equal with ,god2 and that ,heaven1 and ,earth1 and all things were made by him1 that were made2 and that he descended from ,heaven from his ,father1 when he took our nature upon him8 ,see ,joh4 #a4 #a4 c4--#c4 #ac4 ,heb4 #a4 #b1 #c1 #aj c4--,joh4 #ag4 #e1 #bd4--,phil4 #b4 #f4--;,joh4 #f4 #ch4----af4 #bh4----a4 ,tim4 #c4 #af4--;,heb4 #b4 #ad4 ,and #c4 then1 his ,deity and ,eternity thus cleared1 his ,deity can be no other1 than1 in the total essence thereof1 numerically the same with that of ,god the ,father4 ,for1 those of your own ,sect1 together with the whole ,christian world1 do acknowledge1 #a4 ,that there is but one numerical most high ,god1 an inseparable attribute of whom is his ,creating of the world1 and preexistence before it4 ,and again2 #b4 ,that the substance or essence of this most high ,god1 is not any way divisible1 partible or multipliable2 so that1 ,si ,christus ex ,dei substanti generatus fuit1 tota ei ,patris substantia1 eadem numero1 communicata fuit4 ,see ,volkel4 de vera ,rel4 l4 #e4 c4 #ab4 upon which consequence well discerned1 your predecessors were constrained to desert ,arianism1 or semi-,arianism1 and to take in other respects a more desperate way1 of denying any pre-existence of our ,lord before his ,incarnation3 ,to return then to our business4 ,all ,scripture being equally true2 you know1 no ,text thereof can be pronounced clear in such a sense1 which others1 as clear contradict4 ,the non-consideration of which by the passionate or unlearned1 is the mother of all errors4 ,the ,texts therefore that you produce here so manifest on your side1 that they may not contradict many more others as clear against you1 are to be understood to speak of our ,lord only according to his ,incarnation1 ,messias and ,mediatorship1 in which he hath an inferiority to the ,father and is our ,lord1 by a special ,redemption with his blood1 in another manner1 than ,he together with his ,father1 in the same essence1 is the one true ,god4 ,soc4 ,all the ,texts you have mentioned have been diligently considered1 and answered by our party4 ,prot4 ,and your ,answers are new1 forced1 absurd1 as may clearly appear to any rational and indifferent person perusing ,volkelius l4 #e4 from the #aj4 to the #ad4 ,chapter4 ,but to omit this dispute1 as now beside my purpose4 ,if your sense of the ,scriptures1 you have urged1 be so manifest and clear1 as you pretend2 how comes so great a part of the ,christian world 7doubtless rational men71 in the sense of these very ,scriptures so much to differ from you8 ,therefore here ,i cannot but still suppose in you the defect of a due industry1 well comparing these ,scriptures1 and void of pride1 passion1 and other interest4 ,soc4 ,and ,i return the like question to you4 ,if1 on the clearness of the express sense of these ,scriptures1 ,i cannot infallibly ground my faith1 against many other rational men contradicting2 on what plainness of the sense of any other ,scripture is it1 that ,protestants can ground theirs against a contrary sense given by the learned2 by several ,councils2 by the whole ,church of some ages1 as they do2 not promising to the ,councils1 even to the four first1 an absolute1 but conditional assent1 viz4 only so far1 as their ,decrees agree with these clear ,scriptures8 ,if neither the plain words of ,scripture can afford a sufficient certainty to me in this matter1 which ,scriptures1 you say1 in fundamentals are to all perspicuous 7and such do many deem this point72 nor ,i can have a sufficient assurance of using an unbiast industry in the understanding of these ,scriptures1 and also in the comparing them with others1 in which ,i am conscious to my self of no neglect1 ,i see no sufficient ground of my presuming to understand any other part of ,scripture2 and then1 wherein can lye the assurance of a ,protestant's ,faith1 for his not erring in ,fundamentals at least8 ,bishop ,lany tells me1#ag ,that when we have certain knowledge of a thing1 we may safely learn from the ,schools1 viz4 ,ubi non est formido contrarii2 that after diligent search and inquiry when there remains no scruple1 doubt1 and fear of the contrary1 when the understanding is fixt1 we are said to be certain--,and that they who will say it1 and do think so too1 may safely be absolved from the guilt of disobedience4 ,prot4 #ah,you have a judgment of discretion ,i grant1 and may ,interpret ,scripture for your self3 without the use of which ,judgment you cannot serve ,god with a reasonable service1 who are also to give account of your self1 and are to be saved by your own ,faith1 and do perish upon your own score4----#ai,none may usurp that royal prerogative of ,heaven in prescribing infallibly in matters questioned1 but leave all to judge according to the ,pandects of the ,divine ,laws1 because each ,member of this ,society is bound to take care of his ,soul1 and of all things that tend thereto----#bj;,in matters of ,religion1 when the question is1 whether any man be a fit judge1 and chooser for himself1 we suppose men honest1 and such as understand the difference between a moment and eternity4 ,and then ,i suppose that all the necessary points in ,religion are plain and easie1 and consequently every man in this case to be a compleat ,judge for himself1 because it concerns himself to ,judge aright1 as much as eternal happiness is worth3 and if through his own default he ,judge amiss1 he alone shall suffer for it4 ,to ,god's righteous ,judgment therefore ,i must finally remit you4 ,at your own peril be it4 ,this1 of the ,socinian's ,plea concerning the ,scripture on his side4 4 #i4 ,where the self-clearness of the sense of ,scriptures1 not mistakable in ,fundamentals1 or necessaries1 upon a due industry used 7of which also rightly used1 men may be sufficiently assured17 being made the ground1 as you see1 of the ,protestants and ,socinians ,faith1 before these two proceed to any further conference1 give me leave1 to interpose a word between them1 concerning this certainty so much spoken of1 and presumed on4 4 #aj4 ,and here first1 from this way1 lately taken by many ,protestants1 there seems to be something necessarily consequent1 which ,i suppose they will by no means allow1 viz4 ,that instead of the ,roman ,church her setting up some men1 7the ,church ,governors17 as infallible in necessaries1 here is set up by them every ,christian1 if he will1 both infallible in all necessaries2 and certain that he is so4 ,for the ,scripture they affirm most clear in all necessaries to all using a due industry1 and of this due industry they also affirm1 men may be certain1 that they have used it2 being not all1 possible1 endeavour1 but such a measure thereof as ordinary discretion1 c4 adviseth to4 7,see ,mr4 ,chillingworth1 p4 #ai47 ,and next1 from this affirmed1 that every one may be so certain in all ,fundamentals1 it must be maintained also1 that their spiritual ,guides1 in a conjunction of them1 nay more1 every single ,prelate1 or ,presbyter1 if they are not1 yet may be1 an infallible ,guide to the people in all ,points necessary4 ,and therefore ,m4 ,chillingworth freely speaks to this purpose#ba----,that these also may be both in ,fundamentals1 and also in some points unfundamental1 both certain of the infallibility of their ,rule1 and that they do manifestly proceed according to it3 and then1 in what they are certain that they cannot be mistaken1 they may 7saith he#bb7 lawfully decide the controversies about them1 and without rashness propose their decrees1 as certain1 divine ,revelations3 and excommunicate or anathematize any man persisting in the contrary error4 ,and there seems reason in such ,anathema2 because all others either do or may know the truth of the same decrees by the same certain means1 as these ,governors do4 ,now then2 what certainty the ,guides of a particular ,church may have1 ,i hope may also those of the ,church ,catholick3 and then1 obedience being yielded to these by all their inferiors1 this will restore all things to their right course4 ,all this follows upon certainty1 #a4 ,that ,scriptures are plain in ,fundamentals2 ,and #b4 ,that due industry is used to understand them4 ,but1 if you should deny that men can have a certainty of their industry rightly used2 then again1 is all the fair security these men promise their followers of their not erring in necessaries quite vanished4 ,but now1 to pass from this consequence1 7to which ,i know not what can be said71 and to enquire a little after the true grounds of our certainty in any thing1 which is here so much pretended4 #a4 ,it cannot be denyed1 that he that doth err in one thing1 may be certain1 that he doth not err in some other2 because he may have sufficient ground and means for his not erring in one thing1 which he hath not in another4 ,nor again denied1 that he1 who possibly may err1 yet in the same thing may be certain1 that he doth not err1 if not neglecting some means1 which he knows will certainly keep him from error4 4 #aa4 #b4 ,but notwithstanding these3 ,this seems also necessary to be granted on the other side 7and is so by learned ,protestants17 ,that in what kind of knowledge soever it be 7whether of our ,sense or ,reason1 in whatever ,art or ,science7 one can never rightly assure himself concerning his own knowledge1 that he is certain of any thing for a truth1 which all1 or most others of the same or better abilities for their cognoscitive faculties1 in all the same external means1 or grounds of the knowledge thereof1 do pronounce an error4 ,not1 as if truth were not so1 though all the ,world oppose it2 nor had certain grounds to be proved so1 though all the ,world should deny them2 but because the true knowledge of it1 and them1 cannot possibly appear to one mans intellect1 and1 omnibus paribus1 not to others4 ,now for any disparity1 as to defect1 whether in the instrument1 or in the means of knowledge1 there1 where all or most differ from me1 it seems a strange pride not to imagine this defect in my self1 rather than them2 especially1 99 whenas1 all the grounds of my ,science are communicated to them2 and 99 whenas1 for my own mistakes1 ,i cannot know exactly the extent of supernatural delusions4 ,i say1 be this in what knowledge we please2 in that of sense1 seeing1 hearing1 numbring1 or in any of ,mr4 ,chillingworth's former instances mentioned1 4 #g4 ,so1 ,i can never rationally assure my self of what ,i see1 when men1 as well or better sighted1 and all external circumstances for any thing ,i know being the same1 see no such matter4 ,and this is the ,rule also proposed by learned ,protestants to keep every ,fanatick from pleading certainty in his own conceit4 ,see ,arch-,bishop ,laud 74 #cc4 ,consid4 #e4 n4 #a47----;and ,hooker 7,preface 4 #f47 their designing of a clear evidence1 or demonstrative argument1 viz4 ,such as proposed to any man1 and understood1 the mind cannot chuse but inwardly assent to it2 and therefore1 surely1 proposed to many men1 the mind of the most cannot dissent from it4 4 #ab4 ,consequently1 in the ,scripture2 abstracting from the inward operations of ,god's ,holy ,spirit1 and any external infallible ,guide1 7which infallible ,guide ,scripture it self cannot be to two men delivering a contrary sense thereof37 ,i see not from whence any certainty can arise to particular persons1 for so many ,texts or places thereof1 concerning the sense of which1 the most1 or the most learned1 or their ,superiors1 to whom also all their motives or arguments are represented1 do differ from them4 ,from the plainness of the expression or ,grammatical construction of the words1 such certainty cannot arise2 unless no term thereof can possibly be distinguished1 or taken in a diverse or unliteral sense2 but1 if it cannot be so taken1 then all ,expositors must needs agree in one and the same sense4 ,for ,example1 ,for the ,literal and ,grammatical sense1 what ,text ,plainer than ,hoc est corpus meum8 and yet ,protestants understand it otherwise4 ,very deficient therefore seemeth that answer of ,mr4 ,chillingworth's to ,f4 ,knot#bc1 urging1 ,that the first ,reformers ought to have doubted1 whether their opinions were certain1--,which is to say 7answers he71 that they ought to have doubted of the certainty of ,scripture2 which in formal and express terms1 contains many of their opinions whenas the greater world of ,catholicks sees no such matter4 ,besides1 as there is no term almost in any sentence1 but is capable of several acceptions2 so1 since no falshood1 no discord is in the ,scriptures1 there is no sentence in it1 however sounding for the expression1 but must be reconciled in its sense to all the rest2 and for this a diligent comparing of ,texts is necessary1 to attain the true meaning of many places1 that seem at the first sight most clear in what they say1 but that there are also other places as clear that seem to say the contrary3 ,and some such places they were1 7and that in very necessary points too7 of which ,st4 ,peter saith2 ,that some wrested them to their own damnation#bd3 wrested them1 because they wanted 7not industry1 but7 learning2 which the unlearned 7saith he7 wrest----,and indeed commonly the most ignorant have the strongliest-conceited certainty for what they apprehend or believe1 because they know fewest reasons against it2 whilst1 by much study and comparing several ,revelations one with another1 those come at last to doubt1 or deny that sense of some of them1 which at the first they took for most certainly and evidently true4 ,pardon this long ,parenthesis4 #a p4 #bc1 #aei1 #cfg4 #b ,chill4 p4 #hg4 #c ,chill4 p4 #ah4 #d ,chill4 ,ib4 #e ,chill4 p4 #ai4 #f ,chillingw4 p4 #ajb4 #g ,chill4 p4 #ah1 #ib4 #h ,chill4 p4 #ib4 #i ,chill4 p4 #ei4 #aj ,chillingw4 p4 #aaa4 #aa ,ib4 p4 #aab4 #ab ,ib4 p4 #aag4 #ac ,ib4 p4 #aab4 #ad ,see also ,chill4 p4 #adj1 #cff1 #cfg4 #ae #a ,joh4 #e4 #bj4 #af ,s4 ,hieron4 de viris illust4 #ag ,serm4 at ,whitehall1 ,march #ab4 #affd4 p4 #ag4 #ah ,dr4 ,ferne1 ,division of ,churches1 p4 #df1 #fa4 ,chillinw4 p4 #eg4 #ai ,stillingfl4 p4 #a1 #c4 #bj ,chillinw4 p4 #ei1 #ajj4 #ba p4 #adj4 #bb p4 #aah4 #adj4 #aff4 #bc ,chillingw4 p4 #cjg4 #bd #b ,pet4 #c4 #af4 ,,conference ,,ii4 ,the ,socinians ,protestant-,plea1 ,for his not holding any thing contrary to the unanimous sense of the ,catholick ,church1 so far as this can justly oblige4 #ast4 ,that an unanimous ,consent of the whole ,catholick ,church in all ages1 such as the ,protestants require for the proving of a point of faith to be necessary1 can never be shewed1 concerning this point of ,consubstantiality4 4 #ad4 ,and that the consent1 to such a doctrine of the major part is no argument sufficient1 since the ,protestants deny the like consent valid for several other points4 4 #ad4 #b4 ,that supposing an unanimous consent of the ,church ,catholick of all ages in this point1 yet from hence a ,christian hath no security of the truth thereof according to ,protestant ,principles1 if this point1 7whether way soever held7 be a non-necessary2 for that in such1 it is said the whole ,church may err4 4 #ae4 #c4 ,that this ,article's being in the affirmative1 put in the ,creed proves it not 7as to the affirmative7 a ,necessary4 4 #af4 #ast4 ,because not originally in the ,creed1 but added by a ,council2 to which ,creed if one ,council may add1 so may another of equal authority in any age1 whatever restraint be made by a former ,council4 #b4 ,because several ,articles of the latter ,creeds are affirmed by ,protestants not necessary to be believed1 but upon a previous conviction1 that they are divine revelation4 4 #af4 #d4 ,lastly4 ,that though the whole ,church delivers for truth in any point1 the contrary to that he holds1 he is not obliged to resign his judgment to her's1 except conditionally1 and with this reservation1 unless on the other side1 there appear evidence to him in ,god's ,word4 ,now1 of the evidence of ,scripture in this point on his side1 that he hath no doubt4 4 #ag4 4 #ac4 #b4 ,now to resume the ,conference4 ,the ,protestant1 better thinking on it1 will not leave the ,socinian thus at rest in this plerophory of his own sense of ,scripture1 but thus proceeds4 ,prot4 ,scriptures indeed are not so clear and perspicuous to every one#be as that ,art and subtilty may not be used to pervert the ,catholick doctrine1 and to wrest the plain places of ,scripture which deliver it1 so far from their proper meaning1 that very few ordinary capacities may be able to clear themselves of such mists as are cast before their eyes1 even in the great ,articles of the ,christian faith4 ,therefore why do not you submit your judgment1 and assent to the sense of ,scripture1 in this point unanimously delivered by the consent of the ,catholick ,church2 which also is believed always unerrable in any necessary point of faith1 as this is8 ,soc4 ,first1 ,if you can shew me an unanimous consent of the ,church ,catholick of all ages in this point1 and that as held necessary1 ,i will willingly submit to it4 ,but this you can never do according to such a proof thereof1 as is required1 viz4 #bf,that all ,catholick ,writers agree in the belief of it2 and none of them oppose it3 and agree also in the belief of the necessity of it to all ,christians4 99 ,that no later ,writers and ,fathers1 in opposition of ,hereticks1 or heats of contention1 judged then the ,article so opposed to be more necessary than it was judged before the contention4 99 ,that all ,writers1 that give an account of the faith of ,christians1 deliver it2 ,and deliver it not as necessary to be believed by such as might be convinced that it is of divine ,revelation1 but with a necessity of its being explicitely believed by all#bg4 ,now1 no such unanimous consent can be pretended for the forementioned ,consubstantiality4 ,for1 not to speak of the times next following the ,council of ,nice1 nor yet of several expressions in the ,ancients1 ,justin ,martyr1 ,irenus1 ,tertullian1 ,clemens ,alexandrinus1 ,origen1 that seem to favour our opinion#bh3 ,nor1 of those ,eastern ,bishops1 which ,arrius1 in his ,letter to ,eusebius ,nicomed4#bi 7numbers on his side17 ,hilarius#cj relates no less than ,eighty ,bishops before that ,council1 to have disallowed the reception of the word homousios2 and in the ,council also ,seventeen1 7some of note7 at first to have dissented from the rest4 4 #ad4 ,prot4 ,not yeilding what you say for truth2 but for the present1 supposing it2 yet the ,judgment of so small a party may by no means be adhered to by you1 it being inconsiderable in respect of the whole ,body of the ,catholick ,church declaring against you4 ,soc4 ,if the consent of the much major part is to be taken for the whole1 then the ,reformed cannot maintain their dissent from the much more numerous body of ,christianity1 that opposed their opinions1 and sense of ,scriptures at the beginning of the ,reformation1 and do still oppose them4 ,but not to stand upon this1 ,i would willingly conform to the unanimous1 or most general judgment of the ,church ,catholick2 if ,i were secure that she could not be mistaken in it4 ,but #ca,the sense of the ,church ,catholick is no infallible rule of interpreting ,scripture in all things which concern the ,rule of ,faith--#cb,nor may she usurp that royal ,prerogative of ,heaven1 in prescribing infallibly in matters questioned4 ,prot4 ,you may be secure1 that she never erreth in any point necessary4 ,soc4 ,but you tell me1 that though she never err in necessaries1 yet it follows not1 that she is an unerring ,guide or ,witness therein#cc or1 that she must unerringly declare what points are necessary and what not2 and ,i must first learn1 whether this point of ,consubstantiality is to be numbred among necessaries1 before ,i can be assured1 that the sense of the ,church ,catholick errs not therein4 4 #ae4 ,prot4 ,but #cd;,it is a sufficient prescription against any thing which can be alledged out of ,scripture1 that it ought not to be looked on as the true meaning of ,scripture1 if it appear contrary to the sense of the ,church ,catholick from the beginning2 and therefore such doctrines may well be judged destructive to the rule of ,faith1 which have been so unanimously condemned by the ,church ,catholick4 ,soc4 ,why so8 ,prot4 #ce;,because nothing contrary to the necessary ,articles of ,faith can be so held by the ,catholick ,church2 for its very ,being depends on its belief of necessaries to salvation4 ,soc4 ,this last is most true2 but then1 if you mean to make your discourse cohere1 you must say1 it is a sufficient prescription1 c4 if it appear contrary to the sense of the ,catholick ,church1 viz4 in a point necessary3 for1 the reason you give carries1 and secures you no further2 and then that which you say is no great matter3 ,for1 here we are still to seek1 whether the point we discourse of is in the affirmative such a necessary4 4 #af4 ,prot4 ,but this is ranked among those points which the ,church hath put in her ,creeds4 ,soc4 ,from the beginning this ,article was not in the ,creed2 and though it should be granted that all points necessary are contained in the ,creeds1 yet all in the ,creeds are not thought points necessary3 #cf,necessary so1 as to be believed by any before a clear conviction of the divine ,revelation thereof3 which conviction ,i yet want4 4 #ag4 ,prot4 ,but yet1 though1 first the ,catholick ,church may err in non-necessaries2 ,and #bly4 in what points are necessary1 what not1 her judgment be not infallible1 yet you have still great reason to submit your judgment to hers2 because1 if it happen to be a point necessary1 she is from the divine ,promise infallible and unerring in it2 not so1 you4 #b4 ,if not necessary1 and so both she and you therein liable to error1 yet you much the more2 and she also in these things is appointed by ,god for your ,teacher and ,guide4 ,soc4 ,therefore ,i use the help and direction of my spiritual ,guides2 consider their reasons2 do not rashly depart from their judgment2 but yet #cg,the due submission of my assent1 and belief to them is only to be conditional1 with reservation of evidence in ,god's ,word4 ,for in matter of faith 7as ,dr4 ,ferne saith7 ,i cannot submit to any company of men by resignation of my judgment and belief to receive for faith all that they shall define1 for such resignation stands excluded by the condition of the authority which is not infallible2 and by the condition of the matter1 faith1 of high concernment to our own souls1 and to be accounted for by our selves3 who therefore stand bound to make present1 and diligent search for that evidence and demonstration from ,god's ,word1 upon which we may finally and securely stay our belief----,and #ch,the ,church determining matter of faith 7saith he7 ought to manifest it out of ,god's ,word3 and we may expect such ,churches1 proof1 before we yield absolute assent of belief4 ,and so ,dr4 ,stillingfleet saith#ci----;,all men ought to be left to judge according to the ,pandects of the divine ,laws1 because each member of this ,society is bound to take care of his ,soul1 and of all things that tend thereto4 ,now ,i for my part see no solid ground out of the ,scripture for ,consubstantiality1 but rather for the contrary2 which several of our ,writers have made appear to the world4 ,and therefore unless the ,church were either infallible in all she determined1 or at least in distinguishing those necessaries wherein she cannot err from the rest1 it seems no way justifiable1 that she puts this her definition into the ,creed2 she1 as ,i conceive1 thus requiring from all an absolute consent thereto2 and not only 7as some#dj would perswade me7 a conditional for some of them1 viz4 whenever ,i shall be clearly convinced1 that such point is of divine ,revelation4 #be ,stillingfl4 p4 #eh1 #ei4 #bf ,stillingfl4 p4 #gb4 #bg ,see before ,dis4 #c4 4 #eb4 #bh ,see ,petavius in ,epipha4 ,hr4 #fi4 #bi ,apud ,epipha4 ,hr4 #fi4--,theodor4 l4 #a4 c4 #e4 #cj ,de ,synod4 #ca ,still4 p4 #ei4 #cb ,stillingfl4 p4 #acc4 #cc ,stilling4 p4 #aed1 #aeb4--;,chillingw4 p4 #aej4--;,dr4 ,hammond1 ,defence of the ,lord ,falkl4 p4 #bc4 #cd ,stillingfl4 p4 #ei4 #ce ,stilling4 ib4 #cf ,stillingfl4 p4 #gj1 #ga4 #cg ,dr4 ,ferne1 ,considerations1 p4 #aj4 #ch ,the ,case between the ,churches1 p4 #dj4 #ci p4 #acc4 #dj ,still4 p4 #gj4 ,,conference ,,iii4 ,his ,plea1 for his not holding any thing contrary to the ,definitions of lawful ,general ,councils1 the just conditions thereof observed4 ,that he conceives he ows no obedience to the ,council of ,nice4 #a4 ,because this cannot be proved to have been a lawful ,general ,council with so much certainty1 as is necessary for the ground of his ,faith1 as appears by those many questions mentioned by ,mr4 ,chillingworth1 ,stillingfleet1 and other ,protestants1 wherein he must first be satisfied1 concerning it4 #b4 ,because1 though it were a ,general ,council1 yet it might err even in necessaries1 if it were not universally accepted2 as he can shew it was not4 #c4 ,that1 though yielded to be generally accepted1 it might err still in non-necessaries2 and that ,protestants cannot prove this point to be otherwise4 #d4 ,that the ,leaders of this ,council were plainly a party contesting this1 for many years before1 with the other side condemned by them2 and were ,judges in their own cause4 #e4 ,all these exceptions cancelled1 and ,obedience granted due to this ,council2 yet1 that so1 there is due to it not that of assent1 but only of silence4 4 #ai4 #f4 ,but yet not that of silence neither from him2 considering his present perswasion1 that indeed the affirmative in this point is an error manifest and intolerable3 concerning which matter his party having long complained to their ,superiors1 and produced sufficient evidence2 yet these have proceeded to no redress of it4 4 #bj4 #g4 ,but yet that he will submit to the ,judgment of a future ,council1 if it1 rightly considering the reasons of his tenent1 decree that which is according to ,god's ,word1 and he be convinced thereof4 4 #bb4 4 #ah4 #c4 ,prot4 ,but do you not consider by what persons this ,article was long ago inserted into the ,creed3 ,namely1 by the first ,general1 and the most venerable ,assembly of the ,fathers of the ,church that hath been convened since the ,apostles times2 celebrated under the first ,christian ,emperor by a perfect ,representative of the ,catholick ,church2 and by such persons1 as came very much purified out of the newly-quenched fire of the greatest persecution that the ,church hath suffered1 that under ,dioclesian2 will not you then at least submit your judgment to the ,decree of this great and ,holy ,council2 one and the first of those four which ,st4 ,gregory said he received with the same reverence1 as the four ,gospels8 ,soc4 ,no1 ,and for this ,i shall give you in brief many reasons1 as ,i conceive satisfactory4 ,for #a4 ,had ,i an obligation of submission of judgment to lawful ,general ,councils1 you cannot prove this such a one1 and those the decrees thereof which are now extant1 with such a certainty as is necessary to build thereon an ,article of my ,faith4 ,for to prove this1 you must satisfie me in all those things questioned concerning ,general ,councils 99 by ,m4 ,chillingworth1 p4 #id4 99 ,by ,dr4 ,pierce in his answer to ,mr4 ,cressy1 p4 #ah4 c4 99 ,by ,mr4 ,whitby from p4 #dbh4 to p4 #dcc4 where he concludes3 #a4 ,that we never had a ,general ,council4 #b4 ,that a ,general ,council is a thing impossible4 99 ,by ,mr4 ,stillingfleet p4 #ejh4 c4----#die4 #aai4 #abc4 c4 ,who also1 against the being of such a ,general ,council as is the ,representative of the whole ,church ,catholick1 thus disputes#da----,the representation of a ,church 7saith he7 by a ,general ,council1 is a thing not so evident1 from whence it should come3 for if such representative of the whole ,church there be1 it must either be so by some formal act of the ,church1 or by a tacite consent4 ,it could not be by any formal act of the ,church2 for then there must be some such act of the universal ,church preceding the being of any ,general ,council1 by which they receive their ,commission to appear in behalf of the universal ,church4 ,now that the universal ,church did ever agree in any such act is utterly impossible to be demonstrated1 either that it could be1 or that it was4 ,but if it be said1 that such a formal act is not necessary1 but the tacite consent of the whole ,church is sufficient for it2 then such a consent of the ,church must be made evident1 by which1 they did devolve over the power of the whole ,church to such a ,representative4 ,and all these must consent in that act whose power the ,council pretends to have2 of which no footsteps appear----,the utmost then 7saith he7 that can be supposed in this case1 is1 that the parts of the ,church may voluntarily consent to accept of the decrees of such a ,council2 and by that voluntary act1 or by the supreme authority enjoyning it1 such decrees may become obligatory4 ,thus he4 ,but ,i suppose its ,decrees obligatory then only to those parts of the ,church that voluntarily consent to accept of them1 as the ,arians did not to receive the ,decrees of ,nice4 ,lastly1 by 99 ,bishop ,taylor in the #b;d4 ,part of his ,disswasive1 l4 #a4 4 #a4 p4 #bi4 c4 to the end of the ,section4 ,where p4 #ca4 he saith concerning this of ,nice1 that makes for you1 compared with that of ,ariminum1 which makes for us----,that if a ,catholick producing the ,nicene ,council be rencountred by an ,arian producing the ,council of ,ariminium which was far more numerous1 here are aquilis aquil pila minantia pilis3 but who shall prevail8 ,if a ,general ,council be the rule and guide1 they will both prevail1 that is1 neither4 ,and it ought not to be said by the ,catholick2 ,yea1 but our ,council determined for the truth2 but yours for error3 ,for1 the ,arian will say so too4 ,but1 whether they do or no1 yet it is plain that they may both say so3 and if they do1 then we do not find the truth out by the conduct and decision of a ,general ,council2 but we approve this ,general1 because upon other accounts we believe that what is there defined is true4 ,and therefore ,s4 ,austin's way here is best1 ,neque ego ,nicnum ,concilium1 neque tu ,ariminense1 c4 both sides pretend to ,general ,councils3 that which both equally pretend to1 will help neither2 therefore let us go to ,scripture4 ,and p4 #cb4----,what is the reason 7saith he of ,councils in ,general7 that some ,councils are partly condemned3 the ,council of ,sardis1 that in ,trullo1 those of ,frankford1 ,constance1 and ,basil8 but that every man and every ,church accepts the ,councils as far as they please1 and no further8 ,the ,greeks receive but seven ,general ,councils1 the ,lutherans six1 the ,eutychians three1 ,nestorians two1 c4----,pro captu lectoris habent sua fata4 ,it is as every one likes4 ,i spare to tell you what he saith1 p4 #bf4--,that in the first ,general ,council of ,jerusalem1 which was the first precedent1 and ought to be the true measure of the rest1 the ,apostles were the ,presidents1 and the ,presbyters ,assistants1 but the ,church viz4 the converted brethren and the ,laity1 see p4 #cf4 was the ,body of the ,council1 and were ,parties in the ,decree1 quoting ,acts #ae1 #bb1 #bc4 and that we can have no other warrant of an authentick ,council than this4 #b4 ,though it be shewed a lawful ,general ,council1 representing the whole ,church 7as it ought1 if such7 yet what obligation can there lye upon me of consenting to it8 since it may err even in ,fundamentals1 if it be not universally accepted1 as indeed this ,council was not1 for several ,bishops there were1 that were dissenters in the ,council1 and many more afterward4#db #c4 ,were it universally accepted2 yet unless you can shew me by some means1 that this point wherein ,i differ from its judgment1 is a fundamental or necessary point to salvation1 both it1 and the ,catholick ,church also that accepts it may err therein4 #d4 ,the judgment of this ,council seems justly declinable also on this account4 ,that whereas the ,guides of the ,church1 many years before this ,council were divided in their opinion1 ,alexander ,patriarch of ,alexandria1 and ,hosius a ,favorite of the ,emperor heading one party2 and ,arius and the ,bishops adhering to him1 whom ,i mentioned formerly#dc1 heading another1 and whereas afterward1 in the prosecution of this difference1 both the foresaid ,alexander in one ,provincial ,council held in ,egypt1 and ,hosius sent thither by the ,emperor in another1 had there condemned ,arius1 and his ,confederates2 yet so it was ordered1 that in this ,general ,council assembled for an equal hearing and decision of this ,controversie of these two professed ,enemies to the other party1 the one 7,hosius7 was appointed to sit as ,president of this ,council2 and the other 7,alexander7 held in it the next place to him2 and poor ,arius excluded2 and the ,bishops who favoured him in the ,council1 though at first freely declaring their dissent1 yet at last over-awed to a subscription2 as also was ,arius himself chiefly by the ,emperor ,constantine's overbearing authority2 who1 before somewhat indifferent in the contest1 yet upon ,arius his undutiful and too peremptory ,letters1 had some years before taken great offence at him2 and also 7as he was very eloquent7 publickly written against him#dd4 ,which overawing hence appears1 in that the same ,bishops that were adherents to ,arius1 when1 this ,emperor being deceased1 ,constantius his ,son countenanced their ,cause1 returned1 ,i say not to their former ,opinion only1 but to their publick profession of it4 ,by which we may guess1 that if the ,controversie had at that time been committed to equal and disengaged ,judges1 and such as had not formerly shewed themselves a ,party2 or1 if the ,oriental ,bishops1 without any fear of the ,prince upon them1 might have given free ,votes2 and the ,arian ,cause had then had a ,constantius instead of a ,constantine1 7things wherein ,protestants well understand me1 because on the same ,grounds they have rejected the ,council of ,trent7 we may presume then the issue would have been under ,constantine the same that it was under his ,successor1 ,i say before ,judges equal and indifferent1 and not such as were before a ,party1 though this ,party should be compounded of the chief ,superior ,prelates of the ,church4 ,for1 as ,dr4 ,stillingfleet urgeth1 #de----,we must either absolutely1 and roundly assert1 that it is impossible that the ,superiors in the ,church may be guilty of any error or corruption2 or1 that if they be1 they must never be called to an account for it2 or else1 that it may be just1 in some ,cases1 to except against them as ,parties3 ,and if in some ,cases1 then the ,question comes to this1 ,whether the present he speaks of ,idolatry1 ,i of ,consubstantiality be some of these ,cases or no8 ,and here if we make those ,superiors ,judges again1 what we granted before comes to nothing4 ,prot4 ,no ,person that is appointed by our ,lord to be a ,judge in any ,controversie 7as those ,bishops you have mentioned were in the ,cause of ,arius7 can rightly or properly be said to be1 on that ,side for which he gives ,sentence1 a ,party4 ,nor doth their giving ,sentence once against any ,side1 prejudice them 7as supposed ,enemies1 or ,opposites1 or ,interested7 from sitting on the ,bench1 as oft as need requires1 to pass it again1 alone1 or with others4 ,but1 if every one may be afterward called an ,anti-party1 who once declares himself of a contrary ,judgment1 ,i perceive ,mr4 ,chillingworth's ,observation is right1 #df,that1 in ,controversies in ,religion1 it is in a manner impossible to be avoided1 but the ,judge must be a ,party4 ,i add also1 ,that in ,matters of ,religion1 where every ,man is concerned1 and in great ,controversies1 especially where is any division of ,communion1 all1 both ,laity and ,clergy1 speedily own1 and range themselves on one side or other2 ,clergy interessing themselves for the necessary direction of their ,subjects2 ,laity1 in obedience to their ,superiors2 neither can such a ,judge be nominated1 that is not to one side suspected4 ,so that1 in ,controversies of ,religion1 we must deny any ,judge 7as he did#dg72 or this ,plea1 ,that the ordinary ,judge1 that is assigned us1 is a ,party1 must not be easily hearkened to4 ,as for that you urge out of ,bishop ,taylor1 concerning the ,laity in the first ,council at ,jerusalem 7the ,pattern to all following7 being ,parties in the ,decree1 ,i suppose it is meant no further1 than that also these may assist in the ,council1 and give there a consentient1 or attesting1 but not a decisive ,vote3 which neither did the ,emperors claim1 when they presided therein4 ,see ,dr4 ,field of the ,church1 p4 #fdf4 4 #ai4 ,soc4 ,but ,i have not yet said all4 ,for ,fifthly1 ,were there none of the forenamed defects in it1 #dh,no ,authority on ,earth can oblige to internal assent in matters of ,faith1 or to any farther ,obedience than that of ,silence4 ,prot4 ,yes1 you stand obliged to yield a conditional assent1 at least to the ,definitions of these highest ,courts1 i4 e4 unless you can bring evident ,scripture1 or ,demonstration against them4 ,soc4 ,i do not think ,protestant ,divines agree in this4 ,i find indeed the ,archbishop#di requiring ,evidence and ,demonstration1 for ,inferiors contradicting1 or publishing their dissent from the ,councils ,decrees1 but not requiring thus much for their denial of assent4 ,and ,i am told1 #ej--,that in matters proposed by my ,superiors1 as ,god's ,word1 and of ,faith1 ,i am not tied to believe it such1 till they manifest it to me to be so2 and not that ,i am to believe it such1 unless ,i can manifest it to be contrary1 because my ,faith can rest on no ,humane ,authority1 but only on ,god's ,word1 and ,divine ,revelation4 ,and ,dr4 ,field saith1--#ea;,it is not necessary expresly to believe1 whatsoever the ,council hath concluded1 though it be true1 unless by some other means it appear unto us to be true1 and we be convinced of it in some other sort than by the bare ,determination of the ,council4 ,till ,i am convinced then of my ,error1 the ,obedience of ,silence is the most that can be required of me4 4 #bj ,but sixthly1 ,i conceive my self in this point not obliged to this neither2 considering my present persuasion1 that this ,council manifestly erred2 and that1 in an error of such high consequence 7concerning the unity of the most high ,god7 as is no way to be tolerated2 and ,i want not evident ,scriptures1 and many other unanswerable ,demonstrations1 to shew it did so2 and therefore being admitted into the honourable ,function of the ,ministry1 ,i conceive ,i have a lawful ,commission from an higher ,authority1 to publish this great ,truth of ,god1 and to contradict the ,councils ,decree4 4 #ba4 ,prot4 ,but you may easily mistake that for evident ,scripture1 and those for ,demonstrations1 that are not4 ,concerning which you know what the ,archbishop and ,mr4 ,hooker say#eb----,that they are such1 as proposed to any man1 and understood1 the mind cannot chuse but inwardly assent to them#ec4 ,you ought therefore first to propose these to your ,superiors1 or to the ,church1 desiring a redress of such ,error by her calling another ,council4 ,and1 if these ,superiors1 acquainted therewith1 dislike your ,demonstrations1 which the ,definition saith1 if they be right ones1 they must be by all1 and therefore by them1 assented to1 methinks1 7though this is not said by the ,archbishop7 in humility you ought also to suspect these ,demonstrations1 and remain in silence at least1 and no further trouble the ,church4 ,soc4 ,may therefore no particular ,person1 or ,church1 proceed to a ,reformation of a former ,doctrine1 if these ,superiors1 first complained to1 declare the ,grounds of such ,persons or ,churches for it1 not sufficient8 ,prot4 ,i must not say so4 ,but if they neglect 7as they may7 to consider their just ,reasons so diligently as they ought1 and to call a ,council for the ,correcting of such ,error according to the weight of these ,reasons1 then here is place for ,inferiors to proceed to a reformation of such ,error without them4 ,soc4 ,and who then shall judge1 whether the ,reasons pretended are defective1 or rather the present ,church negligent in considering them8 ,prot4 ,here1 ,i confess1 to make the ,superiors ,judges of this1 is to cast the ,plaintiff before that any ,council shall hear his ,grievance1 these ,superiors1 whose ,faith appears to adhere to the former ,council1 being only ,judges in their own ,cause2 and so the liberty of complaining will come to nothing#ed4 ,soc4 ,the ,inferiors then1 that complain1 ,i suppose are to judge of this4 ,to proceed then4 ,to these ,superiors1 in many diligent ,writings1 we have proposed1 as we think1 many unanswerable ,scriptures1 and ,reasons much advanced beyond those represented by our ,party to the former ,nicene ,council 7and therefore from which ,evidences of ours we have just cause to hope from a future ,council a contrary ,sentence72 and finding no redress by their calling another ,council for a reviewing this ,point1 we cannot but conceive it as lawful for a ,socinian ,church1 ,pastor1 or ,bishop1 to reform for themselves1 and the ,souls committed to them1 in an ,error appearing to them manifest and intolerable1 as for the ,protestants1 or for ,dr4 ,luther1 to have done the same for ,transubstantiation1 ,sacrifice of the ,mass1 and other ,points that have been concluded1 against the ,truth1 by several former ,councils4 ,prot4 ,but such were not lawful ,general ,councils1 as that of ,nice was4 ,soc4 ,whatever these ,councils were1 this much matters not1 as to a reformation from them2 for1 had they been lawfully ,general1 yet ,protestants hold#ee1 these not universally accepted may err even in ,fundamentals2 or1 when so accepted1 yet may err in ,non-fundamentals2 ,errors manifest1 and intolerable1 and so may be appealed from to future2 and those not called1 their ,error presently rectified by such ,parts of ,christianity as discern it2 and also ,s4 ,austin#ef is frequently quoted by them1 saying----,that past ,general ,councils erring1 may be corrected by other ,councils following4 4 #bb4 ,prot4 ,but ,i pray you consider1 if that famous ,council of ,nice hath so erred1 another ,council called1 may it also not err1 notwithstanding your ,evidences proposed to it8 ,for1 though perhaps some new demonstrative ,proofs you may pretend from several ,texts more accurately compared and explained2 yet you will not deny this sufficient ,evidence to have been extant for that most ,learned ,council to have seen the ,truth1 having then the same entire ,rule of ,faith as you now1 the ,scriptures1 7in which1 you say1 your clearest ,evidences lie7 for their direction4 ,when a ,future ,council 7then7 is assembled1 and hath heard your ,plea1 will you assent to it1 and acquiesce in the ,judgment thereof8 ,soc4 ,yes1 interposing the ,protestant-,conditions of ,assent1 ,if its ,decree be according to ,god's ,word1 and we convinced thereof4 ,prot4 ,why1 such a submission of ,judgment and ,assent ,i suppose you will presently yield to me in any thing1 whereof you are convinced by me2 may this future ,council then challenge no further ,duty from you8 why then should the ,church be troubled to call it8 ,soc4 #eg,though this ,future ,council also should err1 yet it may afford ,remedy against ,inconveniences2 and one great ,inconvenience being1 ,breaking the ,church's ,peace2 this is remedied by its ,authority1 if ,i only yield the ,obedience of ,silence thereto4 ,prot4 ,but if your ,obedience oblige not to silence concerning ,councils past1 because of your new ,evidences1 neither will it to a future1 if you think it also doth err2 and either these ,evidences remain still unsatisfied1 or these satisfied1 yet some other new ones appear to call for a new ,consideration4 ,soc4 #eh;,because it may also err1 it follows not it must err2 and it is probable that it shall not err1 when the former ,error is thus discovered1 and if the ,council proceed lawfully1 be not overawed1 c4#ei ,but however1 if ,i ought upon this review to be restrained to silence1 yet1 ,i not convinced of the truth of its ,decree1 this ,silence is the uttermost that any future ,council1 after its rejecting my ,reasons1 can justly exact of me2 and not belief1 or assent1 at all3 ,it may not oblige me1 that ,i should relinquish that you call ,socinianism at all1 but that1 not divulge it2 whereas now by the ,acts of former ,councils 7,i would gladly know upon what rational ground7 an ,anathema is pronounced against me1 if ,i do not believe the contrary1 and ,i am declared to stand guilty of ,heresie meerly for retaining this ,opinion2 which retaining it is called obstinacy and contumacy in me1 after the ,councils contrary ,definition4 #da p4 #eae1 #eaf4 #db ,see before1 4 #ac4 #dc 4 #ac4 #dd ,see ,baronius4 ,a4 ,d4 #cah1 #cai4 #de 4 #dgh4 #df p4 #fj4 #dg ,ib4 4 #aj4 #dh ,whitby1 p4 #ae4 ,stillingfleet1 p4 #ejf1 #ecg4 #di 4 #cb4 n4 #e4 4 #cc4 consid4 #e4 n4 #a4 #ej ,dr4 ,ferne1 ,case between the ,churches1 p4 #dh1 #di4 ,division of ,churches1 p4 #de4 #ea p4 #fff4 #eb ,a4 ,b4 ,laud #bde4 #ec ,id4 p4 #bbg4 #ed ,stillingfl4 p4 #dgi1 #bib4 #ee ,see before1 ,disc4 #c4 4 #cd1 c4 #ef ,de ,baptismo1 l4 #b4 c4 #c4 #eg ,stillingfl4 p4 #edb4 #eh ,stillingfl4 ibid4 #ei ,id4 p4 #ebf4 ,,conference ,,iv4 ,his ,plea1 for his not being guilty of ,heresie4 ,that he cannot rightly according to ,protestant ,principles1 be accused as guilty of ,heresie1 for several reasons4 #a4 ,because ,protestants holding ,heresie to be an obstinate defence of some error against a fundamental1 he thinks from hence his tenent freed from being an ,heresie1 as long as in silence he retains it1 unless he engage further1 to a publick pertinacious maintaining thereof4 4 #bc4 #b4 ,fundamentals varying according to particular persons1 and sufficient proposal2 none can conclude this point in the affirmative1 to be1 as to him1 a fundamental1 or1 of the truth of which he hath had a sufficient proposal4 #c4 ,that a lawful ,general ,council's declaring some point ,heresie1 doth not necessarily argue that it is so2 because they may err in ,fundamentals2 or at least in distinguishing them from other points4 4 #bf4 #d4 ,that he can have no autocatacrisie or obstinacy in a dissenting from their ,definitions1 till he is either actually convinced1 or at least hath had a sufficient proposal either of the truth of such point defined3 that such ,councils have authority to require submission1 of judgment1 and assent to their ,definitions3 of which conviction or sufficient proposal 7that varies much1 according to the differing conditions of several persons7 as to himself1 none can judge save himself3 and1 consequently1 neither can they judge of his guilt of ,heresie4 ,ib4 4 #bc4 #d4 ,prot4 ,you know that all ,hereticks are most justly anathematized1 and cut off from being any longer ,members of the ,catholick ,church1 and so do remain excluded also from ,salvation4 ,now this ,tenent of yours hath always been esteemed by the ,church of ,god a most pernicious ,heresie4 ,soc4 ,i confess ,heresie a most grievous ,crime1 dread and abhor it1 and trust ,i am most free from such a guilt2 and from this ,i have many ways of clearing my self4 ,for ,heresie 7as ,mr4 ,chillingworth defines it7 #fj;being not an erring1 but an obstinate defence of an ,error2 not of any ,error1 but of one against a necessary or fundamental ,article of the ,christian ,faith4 ,first1 ,though this which ,i hold should be an error1 and that against a ,fundamental1 yet my silence practised therein1 can never be called an obstinate defence thereof1 and therefore not my tenent an ,heresie4 #b4 ,since ,fundamentals vary according to particular persons1 and 7as ,mr4 ,chillingworth saith#fa7--,no ,catalogue thereof1 that can be given1 can universally serve for all men2 ,god requiring more of them1 to whom he gives more1 and less of them1 to whom he gives less2--,and that may be sufficiently declared to one 7all things considered7 which 7all things considered7 is not to another sufficiently declared3 and variety of circumstances makes it as impossible to set down an exact ,catalogue of ,fundamentals1 as to make a ,coat to fit the ,moon in all her changes3 ,and 7as ,mr4 ,stillingfleet follows him#fb7 since the measure of ,fundamentals depends on the sufficiency of the proposition2 and none can assign what number of things are sufficiently propounded to the belief of all persons1 or set down the exact bounds1 as to all individuals1 when their ignorance is inexcusable1 and when not2 or tell what is the measure of their capacity2 what allowance ,god makes for the prejudice of ,education1 c4 ,hence ,i conceive my self free from ,heresie1 in this my opinion1 on this score also2 because though the contrary be to some others a ,fundamental truth1 and to be explicitly believed by them2 yet to me1 as not having any sufficient proposal1 or conviction thereof1 but rather of the contrary1 it is no ,fundamental1 and consequently1 my tenent opposing it1 if an error1 yet no ,heresie4 4 #bd4 ,prot4 ,do not deceive your self2 for though according to different revelations1 to those that were without ,law1 or those under the ,law1 or those under the ,gospel2 ,fundamentals generally spoken of1 might be more to some than others2 yet to all those who know and embrace the ,gospel1 we say#fc2 all ,fundamentals are therein clearly proposed to all reasonable men1 even the unlearned2 and therefore the erring therein1 to all such1 cannot but be obstinate and ,heretical4 ,soc4 ,unless you mean only this1 ,that all ,fundamentals1 7i4e4 so many as are required of any one7 are clear to him in ,scripture2 but not all the same ,fundamentals1 there clear to every one2 but to some more of them2 to some fewer2 ,i see not how this last said1 accords with that said before by the same person4 ,but if you mean thus1 then ,consubstantiality1 7the point we talk of7 may be a ,fundamental to you1 and clear in ,scripture1 but also not clear to me in ,scripture1 and so no ,fundamental1 and hence ,i think my self safe4 ,for1----#fd;,i believing all that is clear to me in ,scripture1 must needs believe all ,fundamentals2 and so ,i cannot incurr ,heresie1 which is opposite to some fundamental----#fe,the ,scripture sufficiently informing me what is the ,faith1 must of necessity also teach me what is ,heresie3 ,that which is streight will plainly teach us what is crooked2 and one contrary cannot but manifest the other4 4 #be4 ,prot4 ,i pray you consider a little better what you said last2 for since ,heresie as you grant it1 is an obstinate defence of error only against some necessary point of ,faith2 and all truth delivered in ,scripture is not such2 unless you can also distinguish1 in ,scripture1 these points of necessary ,faith from others1 you can have no certain knowledge of ,heresie1 and the believing all that is delivered in ,scripture1 though it may preserve you from incurring ,heresie1 yet cannot direct you at all for knowing or discerning ,heresie1 or an error against a fundamental or a necessary point of ,faith1 from other simple and less dangerous errors1 that are not so3 nor1 by this can you ever know what errors are ,heresies1 what not2 and so after all your confidence1 if by your neglect you happen not to believe some ,scriptures in their true sense1 you can have no security in your ,fundamental1 or necessary ,faith2 or of your not incurring ,heresie4 ,neither1 ,secondly1 according to your discourse1 hath the ,church any means to know any one to be an ,heretick2 because she can never know the just latitude of his fundamentals4 ,and so ,heresie will be a grievous sin indeed2 but walking under such a vizard of non-sufficient proposal1 as the ,ecclesiastical ,superiors cannot discover or punish it4 ,therefore to avoid such confusion in the ,christian ,faith1 there hath been alwaies acknowledged in the ,church some authority for declaring ,heresie2 and it may seem conviction enough to you1 that her most ,general ,councils have defined the contrary position to what you maintain2 and received it for a fundamental4 ,of which ,ecclesiastical ,authority for declaring ,heresie1 thus ,dr4 ,potter1 #ff----,the ,catholick ,church is careful to ground all her declarations in matters of ,faith1 upon the divine authority of ,gods written word4 ,and therefore whosoever wilfully opposeth a judgment so well grounded1 is justly esteemed an ,heretick2 not properly because he disobeys the ,church2 but because he yields not to ,scripture sufficiently propounded1 or cleared unto him i4 e4 by the ,church4 ,where the ,doctor seems to grant these two things3 ,that all that the ,catholick ,church declares against ,heresie is grounded upon the ,scripture2 and that all such as oppose her judgment are ,hereticks3 but only he adds1 that they are not ,hereticks properly1 or formally for this opposing the ,church1 but for opposing the ,scriptures4 ,whilst therefore the formalis ratio of ,heresie is disputed1 that all such are ,hereticks seems granted4 ,and the same ,dr4 elsewhere concludes thus1 #fg----,the mistaker will never prove1 that we oppose any ,declaration of the ,catholick ,church1 he means such a ,church as makes ,declarations1 and that must be in her ,councils----,and therefore he doth unjustly charge us with ,heresie4 ,and again1 he saith1 #fh----,whatsoever opinion these ancient writers ,s4 ,austin1 ,epiphanius and others conceived to be contrary to the common or approved opinion of ,christians1 that they called an ,heresie1 because it differed from the received opinion2 not because it opposed any formal ,definition of the ,church3 where1 in saying1 not because it opposed any ,definition1 he means1 not only because4 ,for1 whilst that1 which differed from the received opinion of the ,church1 was accounted an ,heresie by them1 that1 which differed from a formal definition of the ,church1 was so much more4 ,something ,i find also for your better information1 in the ,learned ,dr4 ,hammond1 #fi;commenting on that notable ,text in ,titus----,a man that is an ,heretick after the first and second admonition1 reject1 a ,text implying contrary to your discourse1 ,heresie discoverable1 and censurable by the ,church1 where he explains autokatakritos self-condemned2 not to signifie a mans publick accusing or condemning his own doctrines or practices2 for that condemnation would rather be a motive to free one from the ,church's ,censures4 ,nor #bly to denote one that offends against ,conscience1 and though he knows he be in the wrong1 yet holds out in opposition to the ,church2 for so1 none but ,hypocrites would be ,hereticks2 and he that stood against the ,doctrin of ,christ and his ,church in the purest times you may guess whom he means should not be an ,heretick3 and so no ,heretick could possibly be admonished or censured by the ,church1 for no man would acknowledge of himself1 that what he did was by him done against his own ,conscience1 the plea which you also make here for your self4 ,but to be an expression of his separation from1 and disobedience to the ,church2 and so an evidence of the exestraptai kai hamartanei his being perverted1 and sinning wilfully1 and without excuse4 ,what say you to this8 4 #bf4 ,soc4 ,what these ,authors say1 as you give their sense1 seems to me contrary to the ,protestant ,principles1 ,see ,d4 ,potter1 p4 #afe1 #afg4----;,d4 ,hammond of ,heresie1 4 #g4 n4----4 #i4 n4 #h4 ,def4 of ,l4 ,falkl4 c4 #a4 p4 #bc4 and to their own positions elsewhere2 neither1 surely1 will ,protestants tye themselves to this measure and trial of autocatacrisie4 ,for1 since they say2 ,that lawful ,general ,councils may err in ,fundamentals2 these ,councils may also define1 or declare something ,heresie that is not against a ,fundamental2 and if so1 ,i1 though in this self-convinced1 that such is their ,definition1 yet am most free from ,heresie in my not assenting to it1 or 7if they err intollerably7 in opposing it4 ,again1 since ,protestants say1 ,councils may err in distinguishing ,fundamentals1 these ,councils may err also in discerning ,heresie1 which is an error against a ,fundamental1 from other errors that are against non-,fundamentals4 ,again3 ,whilst ,i cannot distinguish ,fundamentals in their ,definitions1 thus no ,definition of a ,general ,council may be receded from by me1 for fear of my incurring ,heresie2 a consequence which ,protestants allow not4 ,again3 ,since ,protestants affirm all ,fundamentals plain in ,scripture1 why should they place autocatacrisie1 or self-conviction1 in respect of the ,declaration of the ,church rather than of the ,scripture8 ,but1 to requite your former quotations1 ,i will shew in plainer ,language the stating of ,protestant ,divines concerning ,autocatacrisie as to the ,definitions of the ,church1 under which my opinion also finds sufficient shelter2 ,we have no assurance at all 7saith ,bishop ,bramhall#gj7 that all ,general ,councils were1 and always shall be so prudently managed1 and their proceedings always so orderly and upright1 that we dare make all their sentences a sufficient conviction of all ,christians1 which they are bound to believe under pain of damnation4 ,i add1 or under pain of ,heresie--,and ,ib4 p4 #ajb4----;,i acknowledge 7saith he7 that a ,general ,council1 may make that revealed truth necessary to be believed by a ,christian as a point of ,faith1 which formerly was not necessary to be believed2 that is1 whensoever the reasons and grounds of truth produced by the ,council1 or the authority of the ,council 7which is1 and always ought to be very great with all sober discreet ,christians7 do convince a man in his ,conscience of the truth of the ,councils ,definitions3 which truth ,i am as yet not convinced of1 neither from the reasons nor authority of the ,council of ,nice4 ,or1 if you had rather have it out of ,dr4 ,potter----,it is not resisting 7saith he#ga7 the voice or definitive sentence1 which makes an ,heretick2 but an obstinate standing out against evident ,scripture sufficiently cleared unto him4 ,and the ,scripture may then be said to be sufficiently cleared when it is so opened1 that a good and teachable mind 7loving and seeking truth7 my ,conscience convinceth me not1 but that such ,i am cannot gainsay it4--,again #gb----;,it is possible 7saith he7 that the sentence of a ,council or ,church may be erroneous1 either because the opinion condemned is no ,heresie or error against the ,faith1 in it self considered2 or because the party so condemned is not sufficiently convinced in his understanding 7not clouded with prejudice1 ambition1 vain-glory1 or the like passion7 that it is an error one of these ,i account my self4 ,or out of ,dr4 ,hammond1 #gc----;,it must be lawful for the ,church of ,god1 any ,church1 or any ,christian1 upon the ,doctors reason1 as well as for the ,bishop of ,rome1 to enquire whether the ,decrees of an ,universal ,council have been agreeable to ,apostolical ,tradition or no2 and if they be found otherwise1 to eject them out1 or not to receive them into their belief4 ,and then still it is the matter of the ,decrees1 and the ,apostolicalness of them1 and the force of the testification1 whereby they are approved and acknowledged to be such1 which gives the authority to the ,council2 and nothing else is sufficient1 where that is not to be found4 ,and elsewhere he both denies in ,general an ,infallibility of ,councils1 and grounds the ,reverence due to the ,four first ,councils on their setting down and convincing the truth of their ,doctrin out of the ,scripture words understood with piety1----and the fetching their ,definitions regularly from the sense thereof1 which the ,general ,churches had received down from the ,apostles4#gd ,upon which follows1 that1 in such case1 where a ,lawful ,general ,council doth not so1 7as possibly it may1 and ,inferiors are to consider for themselves1 whether it doth not7 there may be no ,heretical ,autocatacrisie in a dissent from it1 nor this dissent an evidence of the exestraptai and hamartanei his being perverted and sinning wilfully1 and without excuse4----,lastly1 thus ,doctor ,stillingfleet concerning ,heresie#ge----,the formal reason of ,heresie is denying something supposed to be of divine ,revelation2 and therefore1 #bly4 ,none can reasonably be accused of ,heresie1 but such as have sufficient reason to believe1 that that which they deny is revealed by ,god4 ,and therefore1 #cly4 ,none can be guilty of ,heresie for denying any thing declared by the ,church2 unless they have sufficient reason to believe1 that whatever is declared by the ,church is revealed by ,god2 and therefore the ,church's ,definition cannot make any ,hereticks1 but such as have reason to believe1 that she cannot err in her ,definitions4 ,from hence also he gathers1 ,that ,protestants are in less danger of ,heresie than ,papists1 till these give them more sufficient reasons to prove1 that whatever the ,church declares1 is certainly revealed by ,god4 ,thus he4 ,now such sufficient proving reasons as ,protestants plead1 that ,papists have not yet given them concerning this matter of ,church-,authority1 ,i alledge1 that neither have they nor others given me4 ,to be self-condemned1 therefore1 in my dissent from the definition of the ,council of ,nice1 ,i must first have sufficient reason proposed to me to believe1 7and so remain self-condemned and ,heretical in disbelieving it7 this point2 viz4 ,that the ,church1 or her ,council1 hath power to define matters of ,faith in such manner1 as to require my assent thereto4 ,which so long as ,i find no sufficient reason to believe1 ,i suppose ,i am freed 7without obstinacy or ,heresie1 or being therein self-condemned17 from yielding assent to any particular matter of ,faith1 which the ,church defines4 ,and1 had ,i sufficient reason proposed to me for believing this point1 yet so long as ,i am not actually convinced thereof1 ,i become only guilty of a fault of ignorance1 not obstinacy1 or autocatacrisie1 or ,heresie2 for1 if ,i am self-condemned1 or guilty of obstinacy in disbelieving the foresaid points1 #gf,then ,i become so1 either by the ,church's definition of this point1 or without it4 ,by reason of the ,church's definition of this it cannot be2 for this very power of defining is the thing in question1 and therefore cannot be cleared to me by the ,church's defining it#gg3 and thus1 ,that thing is proposed to me in the definition to be believed1 which must be supposed to be believed by me already1 before such proposal or definition1 or else the definition is not necessary to be believed4 #gh,nor without1 or before such definition1 can ,i have an autocatacrisie2 because this autocatacrisie1 you say with ,dr4 ,hammond1 ariseth from my disobedience to the ,church4 ,prot4 ,methinks1 you make the same plea for your self in this matter1 as if one1 that is questioned for not obeying the divine precepts1 or not believing the divine ,revelations delivered in ,scripture1 should think to excuse himself by this answer2 that indeed he doth not believe the ,scripture to be ,god's ,word2 and therefore he conceives1 that he cannot reasonably be required to believe that which is contained therein4 ,and1 as such a person hath as much reason 7though this1 not from the ,scripture1 yet from ,apostolical ,tradition7 to believe that ,scripture is ,gods ,word1 as to believe what is written in it2 so have you1 though not from the ,nicene ,council defining it1 yet from ,scripture and ,tradition manifesting it1 as much reason to believe its authority of defining1 as what is defined4 ,it's true indeed2 that had you not sufficient proposal1 or sufficient reason to know this your duty of ,assent to this definition of the ,council of ,nice1 you were faultless in it2 but herein lies your danger1 that from finding a non actual conviction of the truth1 within1 7hindred there by ,i know not what supine negligence1 or strong self-conceit1 c47 you gather a non-sufficient proposal1 without4 #bg4 ,soc4 ,it remains then to enquire1 who shall judge concerning this sufficient proposal1 or sufficient reason1 which ,i am said to have1 to believe what the ,nicene ,council1 or the ,church hath declared in this point4 #gi,whether the ,church's judgment is to be taken by me in this1 or my own made use of2 ,if her judgment1 the ground of my belief and of ,heresie lies still in the ,church's definition2 and thus it will be all one in effect1 whether ,i believe what she declares1 without sufficient reason2 or learn this of her1 when there is sufficient reason to believe so4 ,it must be then1 my own judgment1 ,i am to be directed by in this matter#hj3 and if so1 then it is to be presumed1 that ,god doth both afford me some means not to be mistaken therein2 and also some certain knowledge when ,i do use this means aright3 7for1 without these two ,i can have no security in my own judgment in a matter of so high concernment1 as ,heresie and fundamental ,faith is47 ,now this means1 in this matter1 ,i presume ,i have daily used1 in that ,i find my ,conscience1 after much examination1 therein to acquit me1 unless you can prescribe me some other surer evidence1 without sending me back again to the authority of the ,church4 ,prot4 #a4 ,whilst your discovery of your tenent to be an ,heresie depends on your having sufficient reason to believe it is so4 ,and #b4 ,the judgment of your having1 or not having sufficient reason to believe this1 is left to your self1 the ,church hath no means to know you or any other to be an ,heretick1 till they declare themselves to be so4 ,and thus1 in striving to free your self from ,heresie1 you have freed all mankind from it1 7as to any external discovery and convincement thereof7 and cancelled such a sin2 unless we can find one1 that will confess himself to maintain a thing against his own ,conscience4 ,soc4 ,if ,i1 so do the ,protestants2 for1 they also hold none guilty of ,heresie1 for denying any thing declared by the ,church1 unless they have reason to believe1 that whatever is declared by the ,church is revealed by ,god2 and of this sufficient reason they make not the ,church or ,superiors1 but themselves1 the ,judge4 #fj p4 #bga4 #fa p4 #acd4 #fb p4 #ih4 #ii4 #fc ,chillingw4 p4 #ib4 #fd ,chillingw4 p4 #cfg4 #fe ,ib4 #aja4 #ff p4 #ig4 #fg p4 #acb4 #fh p4 #ajc4 #fi ,titus #c4 #aa4 #gj ,reply to ,chalced4 p4 #aje4 #ga p4 #abh4 #gb p4 #abi4 #gc ,heresie1 p4 #aad4 #gd ,of ,heresie p4 #if4 #ge ,rat4 ,account4 p4 #gc4 #gf ,stillingfl4 p4 #ii4 #gg ,stillingfl4 p4 #gd4 #gh ,ib4 p4 #ii4 #gi ,stillingfl4 p4 #gc4 #hj ,see ,still4 p4 #dgi4 ,,conference ,v4 ,his ,plea1 for his not being guilty of ,schism4 #a4 ,that the ,socinian ,churches have not forsaken the whole ,church ,catholick1 or the external ,communion of it3 but only left one part of it that was corrupted2 and reformed another part1 7i4e47 themselves4 ,or1 that he1 and the ,socinian ,churches1 being a part of the ,catholick1 they have not separated from the whole1 because not from themselves4 4 #bh4 #b4 ,that their separation being for an error unjustly imposed upon them as a condition of ,communion1 the ,schism is not theirs1 who made the separation2 but theirs who caused it4 4 #bi4 ,besides that1 whatever the truth of things be2 yet so long as they are required by any ,church to profess they believe1 what they do not1 their separation cannot be said causless1 and so ,schism4 4 #cb4 #c4 ,that though he and his party had forsaken the external ,communion of all other ,churches1 yet not the internal2 in which they remain still united to them3 both in that internal ,communion of ,charity1 in not condemning all other ,churches as non-,catholick2 and in that of ,faith1 in all ,essentials and ,fundamentals1 and in all such points1 wherein the ,unity of the ,church ,catholick consists4 4 #cj4 #d4 ,that the doctrin of ,consubstantiality for which they departed1 is denyed by them to be any ,fundamental2 nor can the ,churches1 from which they depart for it1 be a competent ,judge against them1 that it is so4 4 #cd4 #e4 ,that1 though they are separaters from the ,roman1 yet not from the ,reformed ,churches1 which ,churches leave men to the liberty of their own judgment2 nor require any internal assent to their doctrins 7in which thing these blame the tyranny of the ,roman ,church7 save only conditional1 if any be convinced of the truth thereof2 or1 not convinced of the contrary4 4 #ce4 #f4 ,in fine1 that for enjoying and continuing in the ,protestant ,communion he maketh as full a profession of conformity to her ,doctrins as ,mr4 ,chillingworth hath done in several places of his book1 which yet was accepted as sufficient4 4 #da4 4 #bh4 #e4 ,prot4 ,i have yet one thing more1 about which to question you4 ,if you will not acknowledge your opinion ,heresie in opposing the publick judgment1 and definition of the ,catholick ,church in that most reverend ,council of ,nice1 upon pretence that you have not had a convincing ,proposal1 that this ,definition was therein made according to ,god's ,word1 or the ,scriptures2 yet1 how will you clear your self1 or your ,socinian ,congregations of ,schism8 avoidable upon no plea of adherence to ,scripture1 if it shall appear1 that you have for this opinion deserted the ,communion of the ,catholick ,church2 out of which ,church is no ,salvation4 ,soc4 #ha;,i grant there neither is1 nor can be any just cause to depart from the ,church of ,christ2 no more than from ,christ himself3 therefore ,i utterly deny1 that our ,churches have made any separation from the ,church ,catholick at all3 and this for many reasons4 ,for #ast4 #hb--,we have not forsaken the whole ,church1 or the external ,communion of it3 but only that part of it which is corrupted1 and still will be so2 and have not forsaken1 but only reformed another part of it1 which part we our selves are3 and ,i suppose you will not go about to perswade us1 that we have forsaken our selves1 or our own ,communion4 ,and if you urge1 that we joined our selves to no other part1 therefore we separated from the whole3 ,i say1 it follows not1 inasmuch as our selves were a part of it1 and still continued so1 and therefore can no more separate from the whole1 than from our selves4 ,prot4 ,so then1 it seems we need fear no ,schism1 from the ,church ,catholick till a part can divide from it self1 which can never be4 4 #bi4 ,soc4 ,next1 ,as for our separating from all other particular ,churches1 the ground of our ,separation being an error1 which hath crept into the ,communion of these ,churches1 and which is unjustly imposed upon us in order to this ,communion1 we conceive1 in this case1 if any1 ,they1 not ,we1 are the ,schismaticks3 for as the ,arch-,bishop#hc4----,the ,schism is theirs1 whose the ,cause of it is2 and he makes the separation1 who gives the first just cause of it1 not he that makes actual separation1 upon a just cause preceding4 4 #cj4 ,again1 ,though we have made an actual ,separation from them1 as to the not-conforming to1 or also as to the reforming of an error3 yet1 ,first1 ,as to ,charity2 we do still retain with the same ,churches our former ,communion4----,not dividing from them through the breach of ,charity2 ,or condemning all other ,churches1 as no parts of the ,catholick ,church1 and drawing the ,communion wholly to our selves1 as did those famous ,schismaticks1 the ,donatists4 ,see ,doctor ,ferne ,division of ,churches1 p4 #aje4 and #ca1 #cb4 4 #ca4 ,next1 as to matter of ,faith3 ,we hold that all separation from all particular ,churches in such a thing1 wherein the unity of the ,catholick ,church doth not consist1 is no separation from the whole ,church1 nor is any thing more1 than our suspension from the ,communion of particular ,churches1 till such their error is reformed2 ,for1 as ,doctor ,stillingfleet#hd----,there can be no separation from the whole ,church1 but in such things1 wherein the unity of the whole ,church lies3--,whoso therefore separates from any particular ,church as to things not concerning their being1 is only separated from the ,communion of that ,church1 and not the ,catholick4 ,now1 that for which we have separated from other ,churches1 we conceive not such1 as is essential1 or concerns the being of a ,church so1 that without it we or they cannot still retain the essence thereof2 we declare also our readiness to joyn with them again1 if this error be corrected1 or at least not imposed3 ,and #he7;as ,dr4 ,stillingfleet saith7----,where there is this readiness of ,communion1 there is no absolute separation from the ,church as such1 but only suspending ,communion1 till such abuses be reformed1 or not pressed upon us4 ,and as ,bishop ,bramhall#hf----,when one part of the universal ,church separateth it self from another part1 not absolutely or in essentials1 but respectively in abuses1 and innovations1 not as it is a part of the universal ,church1 but only so far as it is corrupted and degenerated whether in doctrin or manners it doth still retain a ,communion not only with the ,catholick ,church1 and with all the ,orthodox members of the ,catholick ,church1 but even with that corrupted ,church1 from which it is separated1 except only in such ,corruptions4 4 #cb4 ,prot4 ,saving better ,judgments1 methinks a separation 7if causeless7 from the ,communion of all other ,churches1 or from those who are our ,superiors1 in a lesser matter than such a ,fundamental or essential point of ,christianity as destroys the being of a ,church1 should be ,schism2 and the smaller the point for which we separate1 the greater the guilt of our separation4 ,were not the ,donatists ,schismaticks in rejecting the ,catholick ,communion1 requiring their conformity in such a point1 in which ,st4 ,cyprian's error before the ,church's defining thereof was very excusable2 and the ,african ,congregations in his time not un-churched thereby8 ,soc4 #hg----;,but the ,donatists did cut off from the ,body of ,christ1 and the hope of ,salvation1 the ,church from which they separated1 which is the property of ,schismaticks4----,and #hh----,they were justly charged with ,schism1 because they confined the ,catholick ,church within their own bounds4 ,but as ,dr4 ,ferne saith#hi--;,had the ,donatists only used their liberty and judgment in that practice of re-baptizing ,hereticks1 leaving other ,churches to their liberty2 and 7though thinking them in an error for admitting ,hereticks1 without baptizing them1 yet7 willing to have ,communion with them1 as parts of the ,catholick ,church 7saving the practices wherein they differed71 then had they not been guilty of ,schism4 ,in that which ,i hold ,i only follow my ,conscience1 condemn not the ,churches holding otherwise3 ,on the other side #ij;,christ hath forbid me under pain of damnation to profess what ,i believe not be it small or great and consequently under the same penalty hath obliged me to leave the ,communion1 in which ,i cannot remain without the ,hypocritical ,profession of such a thing1 which ,i am convinced to be erroneous4 #ia;,at least this ,i know1 that the ,doctrin which ,i have chosen1 to me seems true1 and the contrary1 which ,i have forsaken1 seems false3 and therefore1 without remorse of ,conscience1 ,i may profess that1 but this ,i cannot3 and a separation1 for preserving my ,conscience1 ,i hope will never be judged causeless4 4 #cc4 ,prot4 ,at this rate none will be a ,schismatick1 but he who knows he erreth 7i4 e4 not who holdeth1 but only who professeth an error72 or who knows1 that the point1 for the non-conformity to which1 required of him1 he deserts the ,church1 is a ,truth1 and the contrary1 which he maintains1 an error4 ,but ,doctor ,hammond#ib tells you4 ,that he that doth not communicate with those ,i suppose he means ,superiors the condition of whose ,communion contains nothing really erroneous or sinful1 though the doctrin so proposed as the condition of their ,communion1 be apprehended by him1 to whom it is thus proposed1 to be false1 remains in ,schism4 ,soc4 ,and at this rate1 all those1 who separate from the ,church1 requiring their assent to what is indeed a truth1 will be ,schismaticks1 7and that1 whether in a point ,fundamental1 or not ,fundamental17 though they have used all the industry1 all the means they can 7except this1 the relying on their ,superiors judgment7 not to err2 unless you will say1 that all truths1 even not ,fundamental1 are in ,scripture so clear1 that none using a right industry1 can 7neither7 err in them2 which no ,chillingworth hath maintained hitherto4 4 #cd4 ,prot4 ,but we may let this pass2 for1 your separation was in a point perspicuous enough in ,scripture 7and so you void of such excuse73 was in a point ,essential and ,fundamental1 and in which a wrong belief destroys any longer ,communion of a particular ,person or ,church1 with the ,catholick4 ,soc4 ,this ,i utterly deny2 nor see ,i by what way this can ever be proved against me1 for you can assign no ,ecclesiastical ,judge that can distinguish ,fundamentals1 ,necessaries1 or ,essentials1 from those points that are not so1 as hath been shewed already4 ,and as ,dr4 ,stillingfleet#ic urgeth concerning ,heresie1 so may ,i concerning ,schism3----,what are the measures whereby we ought to judge1 what things are ,essential to the being of ,christianity1 or of the ,church8 ,whether must the ,church's judgment be taken1 or every mans own judgment8 if the former1 the ,ground of ,schism lies still in the ,church's definitions1 contrary to what ,protestants affirm3 if the latter2 then no one can be a ,schismatick1 but he1 that opposeth that of which he is1 or may be convinced1 that it is a ,fundamental1 or essential matter of ,faith4 ,if he be only a ,schismatick1 that opposeth that1 of which he is convinced2 then no man is a ,schismatick1 but he that goes against his present ,judgment2 and so there will be few ,schismaticks in the world2 ,if he1 that opposeth that1 which he may be convinced of2 then again1 it is that which he may be convinced of1 either in the ,church's judgment or in his own3 ,if in the ,church's1 it comes to the same issue1 as in the former3 ,if in his own2 how ,i pray1 shall ,i know1 that ,i may be convinced of what1 using a due indeavour1 ,i am not convinced already8 or1 how shall ,i know1 when a due industry is used8 and if ,i cannot know this1 how should ,i ever settle my self unless it be upon ,authority1 which you allow not4 ,again1 ,i am taught1 that any particular1 whether ,person or ,church1 may judge for themselves with the ,judgment of ,discretion3 ,and in the matter of ,christian ,communion1----#id,that nothing can be more unreasonable1 than that the ,society suppose it be a ,council imposing conditions of its ,communion suppose the ,council of ,nice imposing ,consubstantiality so should be ,judge1 whether those conditions be just and equitable or no3 ,and especially in this case1 where a considerable ,body of ,christians judge such things required to be unlawful conditions of ,communion1 what justice or reason is there1 that the party accused should sit judge in his own cause8 ,prot4 ,by this way no ,separatist can ever be a ,schismatick1 if he is constituted the judge1 whether the reason of his separation is just4 ,soc4 ,and in the other way1 there can never be any just cause of separation at all1 if the ,church-,governors1 from whom ,i separate1 are to judge1 whether that be an error1 for which ,i separate4 4 #ce4 ,prot4 ,it seems something that you say3 ,but yet1 though upon such consideration1 a free use of your own judgment1 as to providing for your own ,salvation is granted you2 yet1 methinks in this matter you have some greater cause to suspect it1 since several ,churches1 having of late taken liberty to examine by ,gods ,word more strictly the corrupt doctrins of former ages1 yet these reformed1 as well as the other unreformed1 stand opposite to you2 and neither those professing to follow the ,scriptures1 nor those professing to follow ,tradition1 and ,church-,authority2 neither those requiring strict obedience and submission of judgment1 nor those indulging ,christian liberty1 countenance your doctrin4 ,but you stand also ,reformers of the ,reformation1 and separated from all4 ,soc4 ,soft a little4 ,though ,i stand separated indeed from the present unreformed ,churches2 or also 7if you will7 from the whole ,church that was before ,luther2 yet ,i both enjoy the external ,communion1 and think ,i have reason to account my self a true member of the ,churches ,reformed2 and1 as ,i never condemned them1 or thought ,salvation not attainable in them2 so neither am ,i 7that ,i know of7 excluded by1 or from them2 so long as ,i retain my opinion in silence1 and do not disturb their peace2 and ,i take my self also on these terms to be a member1 in particular1 of the ,church of ,england1 wherein ,i have been educated4 ,for1 all these ,churches 7as confessing themselves fallible in their decree7 do not require of their ,subjects to yield any internal assent to their ,doctrins2 or to profess any thing against their ,conscience1 and in ,hypocrisie2 and do forbear to use that ,tyranny upon any for enjoying their ,communion1 which they so much condemn in that ,church1 from which1 for this very thing1 they were forced to part ,communion1 and to reform4 ,of this matter1 thus1 ,mr4 ,whitby#ie--,whom did our ,convocation ever damn for not internally receiving their decrees8 ,do they not leave every man to the liberty of his judgment8--,they do not require1 that we should in all things believe1 as they believe2 but that we should submit to their determination1 and not contradict them2 their decisions are not obtruded as infallible ,oracles1 but only submitted to in order to peace and unity----,so that their work is rather to silence1 than to determine disputes1 c4----and p4 #dch4 ,we grant a necessity1 or at least a convenience of a ,tribunal to decide controversies1 but how8 ,not by causing any person to believe what he did not antecedently to these decrees1 upon the sole authority of the ,council2 but by silencing our disputes1 and making us acquiesce in what is propounded without any publick opposition to it1 keeping our opinions to our selves----,a liberty of using private discretion in approving or rejecting any thing as delivered1 or not1 in ,scripture1 we think ought to be allowed2 for faith cannot be compelled2 and by taking away this liberty from men1 we should force them to become ,hypocrites1 and so profess outwardly what inwardly they disbelieve4----,and see ,dr4 ,stillingfleets ,rational ,account1 p4 #ajd4 where1 speaking of the obligation to the #ci4 ,articles1 he saith1----,that the ,church of ,england1 excommunicates such as openly oppose her doctrin1 supposing her fallible2 the ,roman ,church excommunicates all1 who will not believe whatever she defines to be infallibly true4----,that the ,church of ,england bindeth men to peace to her determinations1 reserving to men the liberty of their judgments1 on pain of excommunication if they violate that peace4 ,for it is plain on the one side1 where a ,church pretends infallibility1 the excommunication is directed against the persons for refusing to give internal assent to what she defines3 ,but where a ,church does not pretend to that1 the excommunication respects wholly that overt ,act1 whereby the ,church's peace is broken4 ,and if a ,church be bound to look to her own peace1 no doubt she hath power to excommunicate such as openly violate the bonds of it2 which is only an act of caution in a ,church to preserve her self in unity2 but where it is given out1 that the ,church is infallible1 the excommunication must be so much the more unreasonable1 because it is against those internal acts of the mind1 over which the ,church as such hath no direct power4----,and p4 #ee4 he quotes these words out of ,bishop ,bramhall#if to the same sense1--,we do not suffer any man to reject the #ci ,articles of the ,church of ,england at his pleasure2 yet neither do we look upon them as essentials of saving faith1 or legacies of ,christ1 and his ,apostles2 but1 in a mean1 as pious opinions fitted for the preservation of unity2 neither do we oblige any man to believe them1 but only not to contradict them4 ,by which we see what vast difference there is1 between those things which are required by the ,church of ,england in order to peace1 and those which are imposed by the ,church of ,rome1 c4 ,lastly1 thus ,mr4 ,chillingworth#ig of the just authority of ,councils and ,synods 7beyond which the ,protestant ,synods1 or ,convocations pretend not47----,the ,fathers of the ,church 7saith he7 in after times i4 e4 after the ,apostles might have just cause to declare their judgment1 touching the sense of some general ,articles of the ,creed3 but to oblige others to receive their declarations under pain of damnation1 what warrant they had1 ,i know not3 ,he1 that can shew1 either that the ,church of all ages was to have this ,authority2 or1 that it continued in the ,church for some ages1 and then expired3 ,he1 that can shew either of these things let him2 for my part ,i cannot4 ,yet ,i willingly confess the judgment of a ,council1 though not infallible1 is yet so far directive1 and obliging1 that 7without apparent reason to the contrary7 it may be sin to reject it1 at least not to afford it an outward submission for publick peace sake4 ,thus much1 as the ,protestant ,synods seem contented with1 so ,i allow--,again p4 #cge4 ,he saith----,any thing besides ,scripture1 and the plain1 irrefragable1 indubitable consequences of it2 ,well may ,protestants hold it as matter of opinion1 but as matter of faith and religion1 neither can they with coherence to their own grounds believe it themselves1 nor require the belief of it of others1 without most high and most schismatical presumption4 ,thus he3 now ,i suppose that either no ,protestant ,church or ,synod will stile the ,son's coequal ,god-head with the ,father a plain irrefragable1 indubitable ,scripture1 or consequence thereof1 about which is1 and hath been so much contest1 or with as much reason1 they may call whatever points they please such1 however controverted1 and then1 what is said here signifies nothing4 4 #cf4 ,prot4 ,be not mistaken1 ,i pray3 especially concerning the ,church of ,england4 ,for though she1 for several ,points1 imposed formerly by the ,tyranny of the ,roman ,church1 hath granted liberty of ,opinion1 or at least freed her ,subjects from obligation to believe so in them1 as the ,church formerly required2 yet as to exclusion of your ,doctrin1 she professeth firmly to believe the three ,creeds2 and concerning the ,additions made in the two latter ,creeds to the first1 ,dr4 ,hammond#ih acknowledgeth1----,that they being thus settled by the ,universal ,church1 were1 and still are in all reason1 without disputing1 to be received and embraced by the ,protestant ,church1 and every meek ,member thereof1 with that reverence that is due to ,apostolick ,truths2 with that thankfulness which is our meet tribute to those sacred ,champions1 for their seasonable1 and provident propugning our faith1 with such timely and necessary application to practice1 that the ,holy ,ghost1 speaking to us now1 under the times of the ,new ,testament by the ,governors of the ,christian ,churches1 7,christs mediate successors in the ,prophetick1 ,pastoral1 ,episcopal ,office7 as he had formerly spoken by the ,prophets of the ,old ,testament1 sent immediately by him1 may find a cheerful audience1 and receive all uniform submission from us4 ,thus1 ,dr4 ,hammond of the ,church of ,england's assent to the three ,creeds4 ,she assenteth also to the definitions of the four first ,general ,councils3 ,and the ,act #a ,eliz4#ii declares ,heresie that1 which hath been adjudged so by them2 now in the definitions of these #d first ,general ,councils your tenent hath received a ,mortal wound4 ,but lastly1 the #dth ,canon in the ,english ,synod held #afdj4ajj particularly stiles ,socinianism a most damnable and cursed ,heresie1 and contrary to the ,articles of ,religion established in the ,church of ,england3 and orders that any1 convicted of it1 be excommunicated and not absolved1 but upon his repentance and abjuration4 ,now further than this namely1 excommunication upon conviction4 ,no other ,church ,i suppose hath1 or can proceed against your ,heresie2 ,it being received as a common ,axiom in the ,canon law2 that ,ecclesia non judicat de occultis1----,and----,cogitationis pnam nemo patitur4----,and----,ob peccatum mere internum ,ecclesiastica censura ferri non potest4 ,and in all ,churches every one1 of what internal perswasion soever1 continues externally at least a member thereof1 till the ,church's censures do exclude him4 4 #cg4 ,soc4 ,the ,church of ,england alloweth1 assenteth to1 and teacheth1 what she judgeth evident in the ,scripture2 for so she ought2 what she believes1 or assenteth to1 ,i look not after1 but what she enjoyns4 ,now ,i yield all that obedience in this point1 that she requires from me2 and so ,i presume she will acknowledge me a dutiful ,son4 ,prot4 ,what obedience when as you deny one of her chiefest1 and most fundamental doctrins8 ,soc4 ,if ,i mistake not her principles1 she requires of me no internal belief or assent to any of her doctrins1 but only1 #ast4 ,silence1 or non-contradiction or #bly1 a conditional belief1 i4e4 whenever ,i shall be convinced of the truth thereof4 ,now in both these ,i most readily obey her4 ,for the #ast1 ,i have strictly observed it1 kept my opinion to my self2 unless this my discourse with you hath been a breach of it2 but then ,i was at least a dutiful subject of this ,church at the beginning of our discourse2 and for the #b;d1 whether actual conviction1 or sufficient proposal1 be made the condition of my assent1 or submission of judgment1 ,i am conscious to my self of no disobedience1 as to either of these2 for an actual conviction ,i am sure ,i have not3 and1 supposing1 that ,i have had a sufficient proposal1 and do not know it1 my obedience1 upon the ,protestant principles1 can possibly advance no further1 than it now doth4 ,the ,apostles ,creed ,i totally embrace1 and would have it the standing bound of a ,christian ,faith4 ,for other ,creeds3 ,i suppose1 no more belief is necessary to the ,articles of the ,nicene ,creed1 than is required to those of the ,athanasian4 ,and1 of what kind the necessity is of believing those1 ,dr4 ,stillingfleet states on this manner #aja----,that the belief of a thing may be supposed necessary1 either as to the matter1 because the matter is to be believed in it self necessary2 or because of the clear conviction of mens understandings2 that1 though the matters be not in themselves necessary1 yet being revealed by ,god1 they must be explicitly believed3 but then1 the necessity of this belief doth extend no further1 than the clearness of the conviction doth4 ,again1 that the necessity of believing any thing arising from the ,church's definition upon which motive you seem to press the belief of the ,article of ,consubstantiality doth depend upon the ,conviction1 that whatever the ,church defines is necessary to be believed4 ,and1 where that is not received as an antecedent principle1 the other cannot be supposed4 ,now this principle neither ,i1 nor yet ,protestants1 accept4 ,then he concludes----,that as to the ,athanasian ,creed and the same it is for the ,nicene4 ,it is unreasonable to imagine1 that the ,church of ,england doth own this necessity1 purely on the account of the ,church's definition of those things which are not fundamental1 it being directly contrary to her sense in her #aith and #bjth ,articles4 ,now1 which ,articles of this ,creed are not ,fundamental1 she defines nothing2 nor do the #ai1 #bj1 or #ba4 ,articles own a necessity of believing the ,church's ,definitions1 even as to ,fundamentals4 ,and hence1 that the supposed necessity of the belief of the ,articles of the ,athanasian ,creed must1 according to the sense of the ,church of ,england1 be resolved1 either into the necessity of the matters1 or into that necessity1 which supposeth clear conviction1 that the things therein contained are of divine ,revelation4 ,thus he4 ,now1 for so many ,articles as ,i am either convinced of the matter to be believed1 that it is in it self necessary2 or1 that they are divine ,revelations1 ,i do most readily yield my ,faith1 and assent thereto4 ,now1 to make some ,reply to the other things you have objected4 4 #ch4 ,the ,act #a ,eliz4 allows no ,definitions of the ,first ,general ,councils in declaring ,heresie1 but with this limitation1 that1 in such ,councils1 such thing be declared ,heresie by the express and plain words of the ,canonical ,scripture4 ,on which terms ,i also accept them4 4 #ci4 ,dr4 ,hammond's affirming1 ,that all additions settled by the ,universal ,church he means ,general ,councils are in all reason1 without disputing1 to be received as ,apostolical ,truths1 that the ,holy ,ghost speaking to us by the ,governors of the ,christian ,churches1 ,christ's ,successors1 may receive all uniform submission from us1 suits not with the ,protestant ,principles often formerly mentioned4#ajb ,for thus 7if ,i rightly understand him7 all the definitions of ,general ,councils1 and of the ,christian ,governors in all ages1 as these being still ,christ's ,successors1 are to be without disputing1 embraced as truths ,apostolical4 4 #dj4 ,if the words of the fourth ,canon of the ,english ,synod #afdj4 signifie any more1 than this2 ,that any person convicted of ,socinianism 7i4 e4 by publishing his opinion7 shall1 upon such conviction1 be excommunicated2 and if it be understood adequate to this1 ,qui non crediderit filium esse homoousion ,deo ,patri1 ,anathema sit1 and1 that the ,church of ,england1 for allowing her ,communion1 is not content with silence in respect of ,socinianism1 but obligeth men also to assent to the contrary2 then1 ,i see not upon what good grounds such exclamation is made against the like ,anathema's or exactions of assent required by that of ,trent1 or other late ,councils1 or by ,pius his ,bull4 ,if it be said here1 the reason of such faulting them is1 because these require assent1 not being lawful ,general ,councils1 such reason will not pass2 #ast4 ,because1 neither the ,english ,synod1 exacting assent in this point1 is a ,general ,council4 #bly4 ,because1 it is the ,protestant tenent1 that neither may lawful ,general ,councils require assent to all their ,definitions4 ,or1 if it be affirmed 7either of ,general or ,provincial ,councils7 that they may require assent under ,anathema to some of their decrees2 viz4 ,those evidently true1 and divine ,revelations2 such as ,consubstantiality is2 but may not to others2 viz4 ,those not manifested by them to be such2 then1 before we can censure any ,council for its ,anathema's1 or its requiring of assent1 we must know1 whether the point1 to which assent is required1 is1 or is not1 evident divine ,revelation4 ,and then1 by whom1 or how1 shall this thing touching the evidence of the ,divine ,revelation be judged or decided8 for those that judge this1 whoever they be1 do sit now upon the trial of the rightness1 or mistake of the judgment of a ,general ,council3 ,or when1 think we1 will those who judge this 7i4e4 every person for himself7 agree in their sentence8 ,again1 ,if on the other side1 the former ,church in her language1 ,si quis non crediderit1 c4 ,anathema sit1 be affirmed 7to which purpose the fore-mentioned ,axioms are urged by you7 to mean nothing more1 than1 ,si quis ,hresin suam palam profiteatur1 hujus professionis convictus fuerit1 ,anathema sit1 ,thus the ,protestants former quarrel with her passing such ,anathema's will be concluded causeless and unjust4 ,but indeed1 though1 7according to the former sentences17 her ,anathema is not extended to the internal act of holding such an opinion1 if wholly concealed1 so far as to render such person for it to stand excommunicated1 and lie actually under this censure of the ,church1 because hitherto no contempt of her authority appears1 nor is any dammage inferred to any other member of her ,society thereby8 ,yet her ,anathema also extends1 even to the internal act1 or tenet1 after the ,church's contrary definition known 7which tenet also then is not held without a disobedience1 and contempt of her authority7 so far1 as to render the delinquent therein guilty of a very great mortal sin2 and so at the same time internally cut off from being a true member of ,christ's ,body2 though externally he is not as yet so cut off4 ,and the ,casuists further state him ipso facto to be excommunicated1 before1 and without conviction1 if externally he doth1 or speaketh any thing1 whereby he is convincible2 and not if there be any thing proved against him1 but if any thing at least provable2 and such a one1 upon this1 to be obliged in ,conscience1 not only to confess his heretical opinion1 for his being absolved from mortal sin2 but also to seek a release from excommunication incurred1 for his re-enjoying the ,church's ,communion4 ,thus you see a rigor in this ,church towards what it once accounted ,heresie much different from the more mild ,spirit1 and moderate temper of the ,reformed4 4 #da4 ,to conclude4 ,for the enjoying the ,protestant ,communion1 ,i conceive that1 as to any necessary approbation of her ,doctrins1 it is sufficient for me to hold with ,mr4 ,chillingworth 7as ,i do#ajc7----,that the ,doctrin of ,protestants1 though not that1 of all of them1 absolutely true1 yet it is free from all impiety1 and from all ,error destructive to ,salvation1 or in it self damnable4 ,and #ajd----whatsoever hath been held necessary to ,salvation by the consent of ,protestants1 or even of the ,church of ,england1 which indeed hath given no certain ,catalogue at all of such necessaries1 that1 against the ,socinians1 and all others whatsoever1 ,i do verily believe1 and embrace----,and 7which is still the same7 #aje--;,i am perswaded1 that the constant doctrin of the ,church of ,england1 is so pure and ,orthodox1 that whosoever believes it1 and lives according to it1 undoubtedly he shall be saved4 ,for if all truths necessary to ,salvation be held in it1 then1 so1 is no error1 opposite or destructive to ,salvation1 held by it2 and so1 living according to the truths it holds1 ,i may be saved4 ,again #ajf----;,i believe that there is no error in it1 which may necessitate1 or warrant any man to disturb the peace1 or renounce the ,communion of it1 ,for1 though ,i believe ,antisocinianism1 an error2 ,yet if ,i hold it not such1 as that for it any man may disturb the peace1 or ought to renounce the ,communion of the ,church1 ,i may profess all this1 and yet hold ,socinianism4 ,lastly as he1#ajg so ,i2----,propose me any thing out of the ,bible1 seem it never so incomprehensible1 ,i will subscribe it with hand and heart4 ,in other things that ,i think not contained in this ,book ,i will take no mans liberty of judgment from him1 neither shall any man take mine from me2 for ,i am fully assured1 that ,god doth not1 and therefore that men ought not to require any more of any man than this2 ,to believe the ,scripture to be ,gods ,word1 to endeavour to find the true sense of it2 and to live according to it4 ,without pertinacy ,i can be no ,heretick2 ,and#ajh1 endeavouring to find the true sense of ,scripture1 ,i cannot but hold my error without pertinacy1 and be ready to forsake it1 when a more true1 and a more probable sense shall appear unto me4----,and then1 all necessary truth being plainly set down in ,scripture1 ,i am certain by believing ,scripture to believe all necessary truth2 and in doing so1 my life being answerable to my ,faith1 how is it possible ,i should fail of ,salvation8 ,thus ,mr4 ,chillingworth speaks perfectly my sense4 ,prot4 ,i see no other cure for you2 but that you learn humility and mortification of your ,understanding 7in which lies the most subtle and perilous of all ,prides73 ,and1 ,it will reduce you to ,obedience3 and this to ,truth4 ,that1 with all the ,church of ,god1 you may give glory to ,god the only begotten ,son1 and the ,holy ,ghost1 coessential with ,god the ,father4 ,to which ,trinity in ,unity1 as it hath been from the beginning1 and is now1 so shall all ,honour and ,glory be given throughout all future ages4 ,amen4 #ha ,dr4 ,potter p4 #ge4 #hb ,chillingw4 p4 #bgd4 #hc ,lawd4 p4 #adb4 #hd p4 #cca4 #he ,stilling4 ib4 #hf ,vindic4 of the ,church of ,eng4 p4 #i4 #hg ,d4 ,potter p4 #gf4 #hh ,stillingfl4 p4 #cei4 #hi ,division of ,churches4 p4 #ajf4 #ij ,chillingw4 p4 #bgh4 #ia ,ib4 #bgi4 #ib ,of ,schism1 p4 #bc1 #bd1 #be4 #ic p4 #gc4 #id ,stillingfl4 p4 #bib4 #ie p4 #ajj4 #if ,schism guarded1 p4 #aib4 #ig p4 #bjj4 #ih ,of ,fundamentals4 p4 #ij4 #ii cap4 #a4 #ajj ,can4 #d4 #aja p4 #gj1 #ga4 #ajb ,see before 4 #bf4 #ajc ,chillingw4 ,pref4 4 #ci4 #ajd ,ib4 4 #bh4 #aje ,ib4 4 #bi4 #ajf ,ibid4 #ajg ,chillingw4 p4 #cgf4 #ajh ,ib4 4 #eg4 ,,finis4 ,,errata4 ,page #ai4 lin4 #ah4 read ,emperor4 p4 #bh4 l4 #a4 dele ,see more ,protestants cited to this purpose1 ,disc4 #c4 4 #ai4 pag4 #ca1 l4 #g4 r4 there by4