,,eryxias  ,by a ,platonic ,imitator    
7see ,appendix ,,ii7    ,translated by  
,benjamin ,jowett     ,,appendix ,,ii4  
,the two dialogues which are translated 
in the second appendix are not mentioned
 by ,aristotle1 or by any early         
authority1 and have no claim to be      
ascribed to ,plato4 ,they are examples  
of ,platonic dialogues to be assigned   
probably to the second or third         
generation after ,plato1 when his       
writings were well known at ,athens and 
,alexandria4 ,they exhibit considerable 
originality1 and are remarkable for     
containing several thoughts of the sort 
which we suppose to be modern rather    
than ancient1 and which therefore have a
 peculiar interest for us4 ,the ,second 
,alcibiades shows that the difficulties 
about prayer which have perplexed       
,christian theologians were not unknown 
among the followers of ,plato4 ,the     
,eryxias was doubted by the ancients    
themselves3 yet it may claim the        
distinction of being1 among all ,greek  

or ,roman writings1 the one which       
anticipates in the most striking manner 
the modern science of political economy 
and gives an abstract form to some of   
its principal doctrines4  ,for the      
translation of these two dialogues ,i am
 indebted to my friend and secretary1   
,mr4 ,knight4  ,that the ,dialogue which
 goes by the name of the ,second        
,alcibiades is a genuine writing of     
,plato will not be maintained by any    
modern critic1 and was hardly believed  
by the ancients themselves4 ,the        
dialectic is poor and weak4 ,there is no
 power over language1 or beauty of      
style2 and there is a certain abruptness
 and agroikia in the conversation1 which
 is very un-,platonic4 ,the best passage
 is probably that about the poets3--the 
remark that the poet1 who is of a       
reserved disposition1 is uncommonly     
difficult to understand1 and the        
ridiculous interpretation of ,homer1 are
 entirely in the spirit of ,plato       
7compare ,protag2 ,ion2 ,apol474 ,the   

characters are ill-drawn4 ,socrates     
assumes the 'superior person' and       
preaches too much1 while ,alcibiades is 
stupid and heavy-in-hand4 ,there are    
traces of ,stoic influence in the       
general tone and phraseology of the     
,dialogue 7compare opos melesei         
tis444kaka3 oti pas aphron mainetai73   
and the writer seems to have been       
acquainted with the ',laws' of ,plato   
7compare ,laws74 ,an incident from the  
,symposium is rather clumsily           
introduced1 and two somewhat hackneyed  
quotations 7,symp41 ,gorg47 recur4 ,the 
reference to the death of ,archelaus as 
having occurred 'quite lately' is only a
 fiction1 probably suggested by the     
,gorgias1 where the story of ,archelaus 
is told1 and a similar phrase           
occurs2--ta gar echthes kai proen       
gegonota tauta1 k4t4l4 ,there are       
several passages which are either       
corrupt or extremely ill-expressed4 ,but
 there is a modern interest in the      
subject of the dialogue2 and it is a    

good example of a short spurious work1  
which may be attributed to the second or
 third century before ,christ4          
,,introduction4  ,much cannot be said in
 praise of the style or conception of   
the ,eryxias4 ,it is frequently obscure2
 like the exercise of a student1 it is  
full of small imitations of             
,plato3--,phaeax returning from an      
expedition to ,sicily 7compare ,socrates
 in the ,charmides from the army at     
,potidaea71 the figure of the game at   
draughts1 borrowed from the ,republic1  
etc4 ,it has also in many passages the  
ring of sophistry4 ,on the other hand1  
the rather unhandsome treatment which is
 exhibited towards ,prodicus is quite   
unlike the urbanity of ,plato4  ,yet    
there are some points in the argument   
which are deserving of attention4 7#a7  
,that wealth depends upon the need of it
 or demand for it1 is the first         
anticipation in an abstract form of one 
of the great principles of modern       
political economy1 and the nearest      

approach to it to be found in an ancient
 writer4 7#b7 ,the resolution of wealth 
into its simplest implements going on to
 infinity is a subtle and refined       
thought4 7#c7 ,that wealth is relative  
to circumstances is a sound conception4 
7#d7 ,that the arts and sciences which  
receive payment are likewise to be      
comprehended under the notion of wealth1
 also touches a question of modern      
political economy4 7#e7 ,the distinction
 of post hoc and propter hoc1 often lost
 sight of in modern as well as in       
ancient times4 ,these metaphysical      
conceptions and distinctions show       
considerable power of thought in the    
writer1 whatever we may think of his    
merits as an imitator of ,plato4        
,,eryxias   ,,persons ,,of ,,the        
,,dialogue3 ,socrates1 ,eryxias1        
,erasistratus1 ,critias4  ,,scene3 ,the 
portico of a temple of ,zeus4   ,it     
happened by chance that ,eryxias the    
,steirian was walking with me in the    
,portico of ,zeus the ,deliverer1 when  

there came up to us ,critias and        
,erasistratus1 the latter the son of    
,phaeax1 who was the nephew of          
,erasistratus4 ,now ,erasistratus had   
just arrived from ,sicily and that part 
of the world4 ,as they approached1 he   
said1 ,hail1 ,socrates6  ,,socrates3    
,the same to you1 ,i said2 have you any 
good news from ,sicily to tell us8      
,,erasistratus3 ,most excellent4 ,but1  
if you please1 let us first sit down2   
for ,i am tired with my yesterday's     
journey from ,megara4  ,,socrates3      
,gladly1 if that is your desire4        
,,erasistratus3 ,what would you wish to 
hear first8 he said4 ,what the          
,sicilians are doing1 or how they are   
disposed towards our city8 ,to my mind1 
they are very like wasps3 so long as you
 only cause them a little annoyance they
 are quite unmanageable2 you must       
destroy their nests if you wish to get  
the better of them4 ,and in a similar   
way1 the ,syracusans1 unless we set to  
work in earnest1 and go against them    

with a great expedition1 will never     
submit to our rule4 ,the petty injuries 
which we at present inflict merely      
irritate them enough to make them       
utterly intractable4 ,and now they have 
sent ambassadors to ,athens1 and intend1
 ,i suspect1 to play us some            
trick4--,while we were talking1 the     
,syracusan envoys chanced to go by1 and 
,erasistratus1 pointing to one of them1 
said to me1 ,that1 ,socrates1 is the    
richest man in all ,italy and ,sicily4  
,for who has larger estates or more land
 at his disposal to cultivate if he     
please8 ,and they are of a quality1 too1
 finer than any other land in ,hellas4  
,moreover1 he has all the things which  
go to make up wealth1 slaves and horses 
innumerable1 gold and silver without    
end4  ,i saw that he was inclined to    
expatiate on the riches of the man2 so  
,i asked him1 ,well1 ,erasistratus1 and 
what sort of character does he bear in  
,sicily8  ,,erasistratus3 ,he is        
esteemed to be1 and really is1 the      

wickedest of all the ,sicilians and     
,italians1 and even more wicked than he 
is rich2 indeed1 if you were to ask any 
,sicilian whom he thought to be the     
worst and the richest of mankind1 you   
would never hear any one else named4  ,i
 reflected that we were speaking1 not of
 trivial matters1 but about wealth and  
virtue1 which are deemed to be of the   
greatest moment1 and ,i asked           
,erasistratus whom he considered the    
wealthier1--he who was the possessor of 
a talent of silver or he who had a field
 worth two talents8  ,,erasistratus3    
,the owner of the field4  ,,socrates3   
,and on the same principle he who had   
robes and bedding and such things which 
are of greater value to him than to a   
stranger would be richer than the       
stranger8  ,,erasistratus3 ,true4       
,,socrates3 ,and if any one gave you a  
choice1 which of these would you prefer8
  ,,erasistratus3 ,that which was most  
valuable4  ,,socrates3 ,in which way do 
you think you would be the richer8      

,,erasistratus3 ,by choosing as ,i said4
  ,,socrates3 ,and he appears to you to 
be the richest who has goods of the     
greatest value8  ,,erasistratus3 ,he    
does4  ,,socrates3 ,and are not the     
healthy richer than the sick1 since     
health is a possession more valuable    
than riches to the sick8 ,surely there  
is no one who would not prefer to be    
poor and well1 rather than to have all  
the ,king of ,persia's wealth and to be 
ill4 ,and this proves that men set      
health above wealth1 else they would    
never choose the one in preference to   
the other4  ,,erasistratus3 ,true4      
,,socrates3 ,and if anything appeared to
 be more valuable than health1 he would 
be the richest who possessed it8        
,,erasistratus3 ,he would4  ,,socrates3 
,suppose that some one came to us at    
this moment and were to ask1 ,well1     
,socrates and ,eryxias and              
,erasistratus1 can you tell me what is  
of the greatest value to men8 ,is it not
 that of which the possession will best 

enable a man to advise how his own and  
his friend's affairs should be          
administered8--,what will be our reply8 
,,erasistratus3 ,i should say1          
,socrates1 that happiness was the most  
precious of human possessions4          
,,socrates3 ,not a bad answer4 ,but do  
we not deem those men who are most      
prosperous to be the happiest8          
,,erasistratus3 ,that is my opinion4    
,,socrates3 ,and are they not most      
prosperous who commit the fewest errors 
in respect either of themselves or of   
other men8  ,,erasistratus3 ,certainly4 
,,socrates3 ,and they who know what is  
evil and what is good2 what should be   
done and what should be left            
undone2--these behave the most wisely   
and make the fewest mistakes8           
,erasistratus agreed to this4           
,,socrates3 ,then the wisest and those  
who do best and the most fortunate and  
the richest would appear to be all one  
and the same1 if wisdom is really the   
most valuable of our possessions8  ,yes1

 said ,eryxias1 interposing1 but what   
use would it be if a man had the wisdom 
of ,nestor and wanted the necessaries of
 life1 food and drink and clothes and   
the like8 ,where would be the advantage 
of wisdom then8 ,or how could he be the 
richest of men who might even have to go
 begging1 because he had not wherewithal
 to live8  ,i thought that what ,eryxias
 was saying had some weight1 and ,i     
replied1 ,would the wise man really     
suffer in this way1 if he were so       
ill-provided2 whereas if he had the     
house of ,polytion1 and the house were  
full of gold and silver1 he would lack  
nothing8  ,,eryxias3 ,yes2 for then he  
might dispose of his property and obtain
 in exchange what he needed1 or he might
 sell it for money with which he could  
supply his wants and in a moment procure
 abundance of everything4  ,,socrates3  
,true1 if he could find some one who    
preferred such a house to the wisdom of 
,nestor4 ,but if there are persons who  
set great store by wisdom like ,nestor's

 and the advantages accruing from it1 to
 sell these1 if he were so disposed1    
would be easier still4 ,or is a house a 
most useful and necessary possession1   
and does it make a great difference in  
the comfort of life to have a mansion   
like ,polytion's instead of living in a 
shabby little cottage1 whereas wisdom is
 of small use and it is of no importance
 whether a man is wise or ignorant about
 the highest matters8 ,or is wisdom     
despised of men and can find no buyers1 
although cypress wood and marble of     
,pentelicus are eagerly bought by       
numerous purchasers8 ,surely the prudent
 pilot or the skilful physician1 or the 
artist of any kind who is proficient in 
his art1 is more worth than the things  
which are especially reckoned among     
riches2 and he who can advise well and  
prudently for himself and others is able
 also to sell the product of his art1 if
 he so desire4  ,eryxias looked askance1
 as if he had received some unfair      
treatment1 and said1 ,i believe1        

,socrates1 that if you were forced to   
speak the truth1 you would declare that 
you were richer than ,callias the son of
 ,hipponicus4 ,and yet1 although you    
claimed to be wiser about things of real
 importance1 you would not any the more 
be richer than he4  ,i dare say1        
,eryxias1 ,i said1 that you may regard  
these arguments of ours as a kind of    
game2 you think that they have no       
relation to facts1 but are like the     
pieces in the game of draughts which the
 player can move in such a way that his 
opponents are unable to make any        
countermove4 7,compare ,republic47 ,and 
perhaps1 too1 as regards riches you are 
of opinion that while facts remain the  
same1 there are arguments1 no matter    
whether true or false1 which enable the 
user of them to prove that the wisest   
and the richest are one and the same1   
although he is in the wrong and his     
opponents are in the right4 ,there would
 be nothing strange in this2 it would be
 as if two persons were to dispute about

 letters1 one declaring that the word   
,socrates began with an ,s1 the other   
that it began with an ,a1 and the latter
 could gain the victory over the former4
  ,eryxias glanced at the audience1     
laughing and blushing at once1 as if he 
had had nothing to do with what had just
 been said1 and replied1--,no1 indeed1  
,socrates1 ,i never supposed that our   
arguments should be of a kind which     
would never convince any one of those   
here present or be of advantage to them4
 ,for what man of sense could ever be   
persuaded that the wisest and the       
richest are the same8 ,the truth is that
 we are discussing the subject of       
riches1 and my notion is that we should 
argue respecting the honest and         
dishonest means of acquiring them1 and1 
generally1 whether they are a good thing
 or a bad4  ,very good1 ,i said1 and ,i 
am obliged to you for the hint3 in      
future we will be more careful4 ,but why
 do not you yourself1 as you introduced 
the argument1 and do not think that the 

former discussion touched the point at  
issue1 tell us whether you consider     
riches to be a good or an evil8  ,i am  
of opinion1 he said1 that they are a    
good4 ,he was about to add something    
more1 when ,critias interrupted         
him3--,do you really suppose so1        
,eryxias8  ,certainly1 replied ,eryxias2
 ,i should be mad if ,i did not3 and ,i 
do not fancy that you would find any one
 else of a contrary opinion4  ,and ,i1  
retorted ,critias1 should say that there
 is no one whom ,i could not compel to  
admit that riches are bad for some men4 
,but surely1 if they were a good1 they  
could not appear bad for any one8  ,here
 ,i interposed and said to them3 ,if you
 two were having an argument about      
equitation and what was the best way of 
riding1 supposing that ,i knew the art  
myself1 ,i should try to bring you to an
 agreement4 ,for ,i should be ashamed if
 ,i were present and did not do what ,i 
could to prevent your difference4 ,and  
,i should do the same if you were       

quarrelling about any other art and were
 likely1 unless you agreed on the point 
in dispute1 to part as enemies instead  
of as friends4 ,but now1 when we are    
contending about a thing of which the   
usefulness continues during the whole of
 life1 and it makes an enormous         
difference whether we are to regard it  
as beneficial or not1--a thing1 too1    
which is esteemed of the highest        
importance by the ,hellenes3--7for      
parents1 as soon as their children are1 
as they think1 come to years of         
discretion1 urge them to consider how   
wealth may be acquired1 since by riches 
the value of a man is judged73--,when1  
,i say1 we are thus in earnest1 and you1
 who agree in other respects1 fall to   
disputing about a matter of such moment1
 that is1 about wealth1 and not merely  
whether it is black or white1 light or  
heavy1 but whether it is a good or an   
evil1 whereby1 although you are now the 
dearest of friends and kinsmen1 the most
 bitter hatred may arise betwixt you1 ,i

 must hinder your dissension to the best
 of my power4 ,if ,i could1 ,i would    
tell you the truth1 and so put an end to
 the dispute2 but as ,i cannot do this1 
and each of you supposes that you can   
bring the other to an agreement1 ,i am  
prepared1 as far as my capacity admits1 
to help you in solving the question4    
,please1 therefore1 ,critias1 try to    
make us accept the doctrines which you  
yourself entertain4  ,,critias3 ,i      
should like to follow up the argument1  
and will ask ,eryxias whether he thinks 
that there are just and unjust men8     
,,eryxias3 ,most decidedly4  ,,critias3 
,and does injustice seem to you an evil 
or a good8  ,,eryxias3 ,an evil4        
,,critias3 ,do you consider that he who 
bribes his neighbour's wife and commits 
adultery with her1 acts justly or       
unjustly1 and this although both the    
state and the laws forbid8  ,,eryxias3  
,unjustly4  ,,critias3 ,and if the      
wicked man has wealth and is willing to 
spend it1 he will carry out his evil    

purposes8 whereas he who is short of    
means cannot do what he fain would1 and 
therefore does not sin8 ,in such a case1
 surely1 it is better that a person     
should not be wealthy1 if his poverty   
prevents the accomplishment of his      
desires1 and his desires are evil8 ,or1 
again1 should you call sickness a good  
or an evil8  ,,eryxias3 ,an evil4       
,,critias3 ,well1 and do you think that 
some men are intemperate8  ,,eryxias3   
,yes4  ,,critias3 ,then1 if it is better
 for his health that the intemperate man
 should refrain from meat and drink and 
other pleasant things1 but he cannot    
owing to his intemperance1 will it not  
also be better that he should be too    
poor to gratify his lust rather than    
that he should have a superabundance of 
means8 ,for thus he will not be able to 
sin1 although he desire never so much4  
,critias appeared to be arguing so      
admirably that ,eryxias1 if he had not  
been ashamed of the bystanders1 would   
probably have got up and struck him4    

,for he thought that he had been robbed 
of a great possession when it became    
obvious to him that he had been wrong in
 his former opinion about wealth4 ,i    
observed his vexation1 and feared that  
they would proceed to abuse and         
quarrelling3 so ,i said1--,i heard that 
very argument used in the ,lyceum       
yesterday by a wise man1 ,prodicus of   
,ceos2 but the audience thought that he 
was talking mere nonsense1 and no one   
could be persuaded that he was speaking 
the truth4 ,and when at last a certain  
talkative young gentleman came in1 and1 
taking his seat1 began to laugh and jeer
 at ,prodicus1 tormenting him and       
demanding an explanation of his         
argument1 he gained the ear of the      
audience far more than ,prodicus4  ,can 
you repeat the discourse to us8 ,said   
,erasistratus4  ,,socrates3 ,if ,i can  
only remember it1 ,i will4 ,the youth   
began by asking ,prodicus1 ,in what way 
did he think that riches were a good and
 in what an evil8 ,prodicus answered1 as

 you did just now1 that they were a good
 to good men and to those who knew in   
what way they should be employed1 while 
to the bad and the ignorant they were an
 evil4 ,the same is true1 he went on to 
say1 of all other things2 men make them 
to be what they are themselves4 ,the    
saying of ,archilochus is true3--       
',men's thoughts correspond to the      
things which they meet with4'  ,well1   
then1 replied the youth1 if any one     
makes me wise in that wisdom whereby    
good men become wise1 he must also make 
everything else good to me4 ,not that he
 concerns himself at all with these     
other things1 but he has converted my   
ignorance into wisdom4 ,if1 for example1
 a person teach me grammar or music1 he 
will at the same time teach me all that 
relates to grammar or music1 and so when
 he makes me good1 he makes things good 
to me4  ,prodicus did not altogether    
agree3 still he consented to what was   
said4  ,and do you think1 said the      
youth1 that doing good things is like   

building a house1--the work of human    
agency2 or do things remain what they   
were at first1 good or bad1 for all     
time8  ,prodicus began to suspect1 ,i   
fancy1 the direction which the argument 
was likely to take1 and did not wish to 
be put down by a mere stripling before  
all those present3--7if they two had    
been alone1 he would not have           
minded73--so he answered1 cleverly      
enough3 ,i think that doing good things 
is a work of human agency4  ,and is     
virtue in your opinion1 ,prodicus1      
innate or acquired by instruction8  ,the
 latter1 said ,prodicus4  ,then you     
would consider him a simpleton who      
supposed that he could obtain by praying
 to the ,gods the knowledge of grammar  
or music or any other art1 which he must
 either learn from another or find out  
for himself8  ,prodicus agreed to this  
also4  ,and when you pray to the ,gods  
that you may do well and receive good1  
you mean by your prayer nothing else    
than that you desire to become good and 

wise3--if1 at least1 things are good to 
the good and wise and evil to the evil4 
,but in that case1 if virtue is acquired
 by instruction1 it would appear that   
you only pray to be taught what you do  
not know4  ,hereupon ,i said to         
,prodicus that it was no misfortune to  
him if he had been proved to be in error
 in supposing that the ,gods immediately
 granted to us whatever we asked3--if1  
,i added1 whenever you go up to the     
,acropolis you earnestly entreat the    
,gods to grant you good things1 although
 you know not whether they can yield    
your request1 it is as though you went  
to the doors of the grammarian and      
begged him1 although you had never made 
a study of the art1 to give you a       
knowledge of grammar which would enable 
you forthwith to do the business of a   
grammarian4  ,while ,i was speaking1    
,prodicus was preparing to retaliate    
upon his youthful assailant1 intending  
to employ the argument of which you have
 just made use2 for he was annoyed to   

have it supposed that he offered a vain 
prayer to the ,gods4 ,but the master of 
the gymnasium came to him and begged him
 to leave because he was teaching the   
youths doctrines which were unsuited to 
them1 and therefore bad for them4  ,i   
have told you this because ,i want you  
to understand how men are circumstanced 
in regard to philosophy4 ,had ,prodicus 
been present and said what you have     
said1 the audience would have thought   
him raving1 and he would have been      
ejected from the gymnasium4 ,but you    
have argued so excellently well that you
 have not only persuaded your hearers1  
but have brought your opponent to an    
agreement4 ,for just as in the law      
courts1 if two witnesses testify to the 
same fact1 one of whom seems to be an   
honest fellow and the other a rogue1 the
 testimony of the rogue often has the   
contrary effect on the judges' minds to 
what he intended1 while the same        
evidence if given by the honest man at  
once strikes them as perfectly true4    

,and probably the audience have         
something of the same feeling about     
yourself and ,prodicus2 they think him a
 ,sophist and a braggart1 and regard you
 as a gentleman of courtesy and worth4  
,for they do not pay attention to the   
argument so much as to the character of 
the speaker4  ,but truly1 ,socrates1    
said ,erasistratus1 though you may be   
joking1 ,critias does seem to me to be  
saying something which is of weight4    
,,socrates3 ,i am in profound earnest1  
,i assure you4 ,but why1 as you have    
begun your argument so prettily1 do you 
not go on with the rest8 ,there is still
 something lacking1 now you have agreed 
that 7wealth7 is a good to some and an  
evil to others4 ,it remains to enquire  
what constitutes wealth2 for unless you 
know this1 you cannot possibly come to  
an understanding as to whether it is a  
good or an evil4 ,i am ready to assist  
you in the enquiry to the utmost of my  
power3 but first let him who affirms    
that riches are a good1 tell us what1 in

 his opinion1 is wealth4                
,,erasistratus3 ,indeed1 ,socrates1 ,i  
have no notion about wealth beyond that 
which men commonly have4 ,i suppose that
 wealth is a quantity of money 7compare 
,arist4 ,pol472 and this1 ,i imagine1   
would also be ,critias' definition4     
,,socrates3 ,then now we have to        
consider1 ,what is money8 ,or else later
 on we shall be found to differ about   
the question4 ,for instance1 the        
,carthaginians use money of this sort4  
,something which is about the size of a 
stater is tied up in a small piece of   
leather3 what it is1 no one knows but   
the makers4 ,a seal is next set upon the
 leather1 which then passes into        
circulation1 and he who has the largest 
number of such pieces is esteemed the   
richest and best off4 ,and yet if any   
one among us had a mass of such coins he
 would be no wealthier than if he had so
 many pebbles from the mountain4 ,at    
,lacedaemon1 again1 they use iron by    
weight which has been rendered useless3 

and he who has the greatest mass of such
 iron is thought to be the richest1     
although elsewhere it has no value4 ,in 
,ethiopia engraved stones are employed1 
of which a ,lacedaemonian could make no 
use4 ,once more1 among the ,nomad       
,scythians a man who owned the house of 
,polytion would not be thought richer   
than one who possessed ,mount           
,lycabettus among ourselves4 ,and       
clearly those things cannot all be      
regarded as possessions2 for in some    
cases the possessors would appear none  
the richer thereby3 but1 as ,i was      
saying1 some one of them is thought in  
one place to be money1 and the          
possessors of it are the wealthy1       
whereas in some other place it is not   
money1 and the ownership of it does not 
confer wealth2 just as the standard of  
morals varies1 and what is honourable to
 some men is dishonourable to others4   
,and if we wish to enquire why a house  
is valuable to us but not to the        
,scythians1 or why the ,carthaginians   

value leather which is worthless to us1 
or the ,lacedaemonians find wealth in   
iron and we do not1 can we not get an   
answer in some such way as this3 ,would 
an ,athenian1 who had a thousand talents
 weight of the stones which lie about in
 the ,agora and which we do not employ  
for any purpose1 be thought to be any   
the richer8  ,,erasistratus3 ,he        
certainly would not appear so to me4    
,,socrates3 ,but if he possessed a      
thousand talents weight of some precious
 stone1 we should say that he was very  
rich8  ,,erasistratus3 ,of course4      
,,socrates3 ,the reason is that the one 
is useless and the other useful8        
,,erasistratus3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,and 
in the same way among the ,scythians a  
house has no value because they have no 
use for a house1 nor would a ,scythian  
set so much store on the finest house in
 the world as on a leather coat1 because
 he could use the one and not the other4
 ,or again1 the ,carthaginian coinage is
 not wealth in our eyes1 for we could   

not employ it1 as we can silver1 to     
procure what we need1 and therefore it  
is of no use to us4  ,,erasistratus3    
,true4  ,,socrates3 ,what is useful to  
us1 then1 is wealth1 and what is useless
 to us is not wealth8  ,but how do you  
mean1 ,socrates8 said ,eryxias1         
interrupting4 ,do we not employ in our  
intercourse with one another speech and 
violence 787 and various other things8  
,these are useful and yet they are not  
wealth4  ,,socrates3 ,clearly we have   
not yet answered the question1 ,what is 
wealth8 ,that wealth must be useful1 to 
be wealth at all1--thus much is         
acknowledged by every one4 ,but what    
particular thing is wealth1 if not all  
things8 ,let us pursue the argument in  
another way2 and then we may perhaps    
find what we are seeking4 ,what is the  
use of wealth1 and for what purpose has 
the possession of riches been           
invented1--in the sense1 ,i mean1 in    
which drugs have been discovered for the
 cure of disease8 ,perhaps in this way  

we may throw some light on the question4
 ,it appears to be clear that whatever  
constitutes wealth must be useful1 and  
that wealth is one class of useful      
things2 and now we have to enquire1     
,what is the use of those useful things 
which constitute wealth8 ,for all things
 probably may be said to be useful which
 we use in production1 just as all      
things which have life are animals1 but 
there is a special kind of animal which 
we call 'man4' ,now if any one were to  
ask us1 ,what is that of which1 if we   
were rid1 we should not want medicine   
and the instruments of medicine1 we     
might reply that this would be the case 
if disease were absent from our bodies  
and either never came to them at all or 
went away again as soon as it appeared2 
and we may therefore conclude that      
medicine is the science which is useful 
for getting rid of disease4 ,but if we  
are further asked1 ,what is that from   
which1 if we were free1 we should have  
no need of wealth8 can we give an       

answer8 ,if we have none1 suppose that  
we restate the question thus3--,if a man
 could live without food or drink1 and  
yet suffer neither hunger nor thirst1   
would he want either money or anything  
else in order to supply his needs8      
,,eryxias3 ,he would not4  ,,socrates3  
,and does not this apply in other cases8
 ,if we did not want for the service of 
the body the things of which we now     
stand in need1 and heat and cold and the
 other bodily sensations were           
unperceived by us1 there would be no use
 in this so-called wealth1 if no one1   
that is1 had any necessity for those    
things which now make us wish for wealth
 in order that we may satisfy the       
desires and needs of the body in respect
 of our various wants4 ,and therefore if
 the possession of wealth is useful in  
ministering to our bodily wants1 and    
bodily wants were unknown to us1 we     
should not need wealth1 and possibly    
there would be no such thing as wealth4 
,,eryxias3 ,clearly not4  ,,socrates3   

,then our conclusion is1 as would       
appear1 that wealth is what is useful to
 this end8  ,eryxias once more gave his 
assent1 but the small argument          
considerably troubled him4  ,,socrates3 
,and what is your opinion about another 
question3--,would you say that the same 
thing can be at one time useful and at  
another useless for the production of   
the same result8  ,,eryxias3 ,i cannot  
say more than that if we require the    
same thing to produce the same result1  
then it seems to me to be useful2 if    
not1 not4  ,,socrates3 ,then if without 
the aid of fire we could make a brazen  
statue1 we should not want fire for that
 purpose2 and if we did not want it1 it 
would be useless to us8 ,and the        
argument applies equally in other cases4
  ,,eryxias3 ,clearly4  ,,socrates3 ,and
 therefore conditions which are not     
required for the existence of a thing   
are not useful for the production of it8
  ,,eryxias3 ,of course not4            
,,socrates3 ,and if without gold or     

silver or anything else which we do not 
use directly for the body in the way    
that we do food and drink and bedding   
and houses1--if without these we could  
satisfy the wants of the body1 they     
would be of no use to us for that       
purpose8  ,,eryxias3 ,they would not4   
,,socrates3 ,they would no longer be    
regarded as wealth1 because they are    
useless1 whereas that would be wealth   
which enabled us to obtain what was     
useful to us8  ,,eryxias3 ,o ,socrates1 
you will never be able to persuade me   
that gold and silver and similar things 
are not wealth4 ,but ,i am very strongly
 of opinion that things which are       
useless to us are not wealth1 and that  
the money which is useful for this      
purpose is of the greatest use2 not that
 these things are not useful towards    
life1 if by them we can procure wealth4 
,,socrates3 ,and how would you answer   
another question8 ,there are persons1   
are there not1 who teach music and      
grammar and other arts for pay1 and thus

 procure those things of which they     
stand in need8  ,,eryxias3 ,there are4  
,,socrates3 ,and these men by the arts  
which they profess1 and in exchange for 
them1 obtain the necessities of life    
just as we do by means of gold and      
silver8  ,,eryxias3 ,true4  ,,socrates3 
,then if they procure by this means what
 they want for the purposes of life1    
that art will be useful towards life8   
,for do we not say that silver is useful
 because it enables us to supply our    
bodily needs8  ,,eryxias3 ,we do4       
,,socrates3 ,then if these arts are     
reckoned among things useful1 the arts  
are wealth for the same reason as gold  
and silver are1 for1 clearly1 the       
possession of them gives wealth4 ,yet a 
little while ago we found it difficult  
to accept the argument which proved that
 the wisest are the wealthiest4 ,but now
 there seems no escape from this        
conclusion4 ,suppose that we are asked1 
',is a horse useful to everybody8' will 
not our reply be1 ',no1 but only to     

those who know how to use a horse8'     
,,eryxias3 ,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and
 so1 too1 physic is not useful to every 
one1 but only to him who knows how to   
use it8  ,,eryxias3 ,true4  ,,socrates3 
,and the same is the case with          
everything else8  ,,eryxias3 ,yes4      
,,socrates3 ,then gold and silver and   
all the other elements which are        
supposed to make up wealth are only     
useful to the person who knows how to   
use them8  ,,eryxias3 ,exactly4         
,,socrates3 ,and were we not saying     
before that it was the business of a    
good man and a gentleman to know where  
and how anything should be used8        
,,eryxias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,the good 
and gentle1 therefore will alone have   
profit from these things1 supposing at  
least that they know how to use them4   
,but if so1 to them only will they seem 
to be wealth4 ,it appears1 however1 that
 where a person is ignorant of riding1  
and has horses which are useless to him1
 if some one teaches him that art1 he   

makes him also richer1 for what was     
before useless has now become useful to 
him1 and in giving him knowledge he has 
also conferred riches upon him4         
,,eryxias3 ,that is the case4           
,,socrates3 ,yet ,i dare be sworn that  
,critias will not be moved a whit by the
 argument4  ,,critias3 ,no1 by heaven1  
,i should be a madman if ,i were4 ,but  
why do you not finish the argument which
 proves that gold and silver and other  
things which seem to be wealth are not  
real wealth8 ,for ,i have been          
exceedingly delighted to hear the       
discourses which you have just been     
holding4  ,,socrates3 ,my argument1     
,critias 7,i said71 appears to have     
given you the same kind of pleasure     
which you might have derived from some  
rhapsode's recitation of ,homer2 for you
 do not believe a word of what has been 
said4 ,but come now1 give me an answer  
to this question4 ,are not certain      
things useful to the builder when he is 
building a house8  ,,critias3 ,they are4

  ,,socrates3 ,and would you say that   
those things are useful which are       
employed in house building1--stones and 
bricks and beams and the like1 and also 
the instruments with which the builder  
built the house1 the beams and stones   
which they provided1 and again the      
instruments by which these were         
obtained8  ,,critias3 ,it seems to me   
that they are all useful for building4  
,,socrates3 ,and is it not true of every
 art1 that not only the materials but   
the instruments by which we procure them
 and without which the work could not go
 on1 are useful for that art8           
,,critias3 ,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and
 further1 the instruments by which the  
instruments are procured1 and so on1    
going back from stage to stage ad       
infinitum1--are not all these1 in your  
opinion1 necessary in order to carry out
 the work8  ,,critias3 ,we may fairly   
suppose such to be the case4            
,,socrates3 ,and if a man has food and  
drink and clothes and the other things  

which are useful to the body1 would he  
need gold or silver or any other means  
by which he could procure that which he 
now has8  ,,critias3 ,i do not think so4
  ,,socrates3 ,then you consider that a 
man never wants any of these things for 
the use of the body8  ,,critias3        
,certainly not4  ,,socrates3 ,and if    
they appear useless to this end1 ought  
they not always to appear useless8 ,for 
we have already laid down the principle 
that things cannot be at one time useful
 and at another time not1 in the same   
process4  ,,critias3 ,but in that       
respect your argument and mine are the  
same4 ,for you maintain if they are     
useful to a certain end1 they can never 
become useless2 whereas ,i say that in  
order to accomplish some results bad    
things are needed1 and good for others4 
,,socrates3 ,but can a bad thing be used
 to carry out a good purpose8           
,,critias3 ,i should say not4           
,,socrates3 ,and we call those actions  
good which a man does for the sake of   

virtue8  ,,critias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3  
,but can a man learn any kind of        
knowledge which is imparted by word of  
mouth if he is wholly deprived of the   
sense of hearing8  ,,critias3 ,certainly
 not1 ,i think4  ,,socrates3 ,and will  
not hearing be useful for virtue1 if    
virtue is taught by hearing and we use  
the sense of hearing in giving          
instruction8  ,,critias3 ,yes4          
,,socrates3 ,and since medicine frees   
the sick man from his disease1 that art 
too may sometimes appear useful in the  
acquisition of virtue1 e4g4 when hearing
 is procured by the aid of medicine4    
,,critias3 ,very likely4  ,,socrates3   
,but if1 again1 we obtain by wealth the 
aid of medicine1 shall we not regard    
wealth as useful for virtue8  ,,critias3
 ,true4  ,,socrates3 ,and also the      
instruments by which wealth is procured8
  ,,critias3 ,certainly4  ,,socrates3   
,then you think that a man may gain     
wealth by bad and disgraceful means1    
and1 having obtained the aid of medicine

 which enables him to acquire the power 
of hearing1 may use that very faculty   
for the acquisition of virtue8          
,,critias3 ,yes1 ,i do4  ,,socrates3    
,but can that which is evil be useful   
for virtue8  ,,critias3 ,no4            
,,socrates3 ,it is not therefore        
necessary that the means by which we    
obtain what is useful for a certain     
object should always be useful for the  
same object3 for it seems that bad      
actions may sometimes serve good        
purposes8 ,the matter will be still     
plainer if we look at it in this        
way3--,if things are useful towards the 
several ends for which they exist1 which
 ends would not come into existence     
without them1 how would you regard them8
 ,can ignorance1 for instance1 be useful
 for knowledge1 or disease for health1  
or vice for virtue8  ,,critias3 ,never4 
,,socrates3 ,and yet we have already    
agreed--have we not8--that there can be 
no knowledge where there has not        
previously been ignorance1 nor health   

where there has not been disease1 nor   
virtue where there has not been vice8   
,,critias3 ,i think that we have4       
,,socrates3 ,but then it would seem that
 the antecedents without which a thing  
cannot exist are not necessarily useful 
to it4 ,otherwise ignorance would appear
 useful for knowledge1 disease for      
health1 and vice for virtue4  ,critias  
still showed great reluctance to accept 
any argument which went to prove that   
all these things were useless4 ,i saw   
that it was as difficult to persuade him
 as 7according to the proverb7 it is to 
boil a stone1 so ,i said3 ,let us bid   
'good-bye' to the discussion1 since we  
cannot agree whether these things are   
useful and a part of wealth or not4 ,but
 what shall we say to another question3 
,which is the happier and better        
man1--he who requires the greatest      
quantity of necessaries for body and    
diet1 or he who requires only the fewest
 and least8 ,the answer will perhaps    
become more obvious if we suppose some  

one1 comparing the man himself at       
different times1 to consider whether his
 condition is better when he is sick or 
when he is well8  ,,critias3 ,that is   
not a question which needs much         
consideration4  ,,socrates3 ,probably1  
,i said1 every one can understand that  
health is a better condition than       
disease4 ,but when have we the greatest 
and the most various needs1 when we are 
sick or when we are well8  ,,critias3   
,when we are sick4  ,,socrates3 ,and    
when we are in the worst state we have  
the greatest and most especial need and 
desire of bodily pleasures8  ,,critias3 
,true4  ,,socrates3 ,and seeing that a  
man is best off when he is least in need
 of such things1 does not the same      
reasoning apply to the case of any two  
persons1 of whom one has many and great 
wants and desires1 and the other few and
 moderate8 ,for instance1 some men are  
gamblers1 some drunkards1 and some      
gluttons3 and gambling and the love of  
drink and greediness are all desires8   

,,critias3 ,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,but
 desires are only the lack of something3
 and those who have the greatest desires
 are in a worse condition than those who
 have none or very slight ones8         
,,critias3 ,certainly ,i consider that  
those who have such wants are bad1 and  
that the greater their wants the worse  
they are4  ,,socrates3 ,and do we think 
it possible that a thing should be      
useful for a purpose unless we have need
 of it for that purpose8  ,,critias3    
,no4  ,,socrates3 ,then if these things 
are useful for supplying the needs of   
the body1 we must want them for that    
purpose8  ,,critias3 ,that is my        
opinion4  ,,socrates3 ,and he to whom   
the greatest number of things are useful
 for his purpose1 will also want the    
greatest number of means of             
accomplishing it1 supposing that we     
necessarily feel the want of all useful 
things8  ,,critias3 ,it seems so4       
,,socrates3 ,the argument proves then   
that he who has great riches has        

likewise need of many things for the    
supply of the wants of the body2 for    
wealth appears useful towards that end4 
,and the richest must be in the worst   
condition1 since they seem to be most in
 want of such things4