,,alcibiades ,,ii by ,an ,imatator of ,plato 7see ,appendix ,,ii7 ,translated by ,benjamin ,jowett ,,appendix ,,ii4 ,the two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not mentioned by ,aristotle1 or by any early authority1 and have no claim to be ascribed to ,plato4 ,they are examples of ,platonic dialogues to be assigned probably to the second or third generation after ,plato1 when his writings were well known at ,athens and ,alexandria4 ,they exhibit considerable originality1 and are remarkable for containing several thoughts of the sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient1 and which therefore have a peculiar interest for us4 ,the ,second ,alcibiades shows that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed ,christian theologians were not unknown among the followers of ,plato4 ,the ,eryxias was doubted by the ancients themselves3 yet it may claim the distinction of being1 among all ,greek or ,roman writings1 the one which anticipates in the most striking manner the modern science of political economy and gives an abstract form to some of its principal doctrines4 ,for the translation of these two dialogues ,i am indebted to my friend and secretary1 ,mr4 ,knight4 ,that the ,dialogue which goes by the name of the ,second ,alcibiades is a genuine writing of ,plato will not be maintained by any modern critic1 and was hardly believed by the ancients themselves4 ,the dialectic is poor and weak4 ,there is no power over language1 or beauty of style2 and there is a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation1 which is very un-,platonic4 ,the best passage is probably that about the poets3--the remark that the poet1 who is of a reserved disposition1 is uncommonly difficult to understand1 and the ridiculous interpretation of ,homer1 are entirely in the spirit of ,plato 7compare ,protag2 ,ion2 ,apol474 ,the characters are ill-drawn4 ,socrates assumes the 'superior person' and preaches too much1 while ,alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand4 ,there are traces of ,stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the ,dialogue 7compare opos melesei tis444kaka3 oti pas aphron mainetai73 and the writer seems to have been acquainted with the ',laws' of ,plato 7compare ,laws74 ,an incident from the ,symposium is rather clumsily introduced1 and two somewhat hackneyed quotations 7,symp41 ,gorg47 recur4 ,the reference to the death of ,archelaus as having occurred 'quite lately' is only a fiction1 probably suggested by the ,gorgias1 where the story of ,archelaus is told1 and a similar phrase occurs2--ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta1 k4t4l4 ,there are several passages which are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed4 ,but there is a modern interest in the subject of the dialogue2 and it is a good example of a short spurious work1 which may be attributed to the second or third century before ,christ4 ,,alcibiades ,,ii ,,persons ,,of ,,the ,,dialogue3 ,socrates and ,alcibiades4 ,,socrates3 ,are you going1 ,alcibiades1 to offer prayer to ,zeus8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes1 ,socrates1 ,i am4 ,,socrates3 you seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground1 as though you were thinking about something4 ,,alcibiades3 ,of what do you suppose that ,i am thinking8 ,,socrates3 ,of the greatest of all things1 as ,i believe4 ,tell me1 do you not suppose that the ,gods sometimes partly grant and partly reject the requests which we make in public and private1 and favour some persons and not others8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly4 ,,socrates3 ,do you not imagine1 then1 that a man ought to be very careful1 lest perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself1 deeming that he is asking for good1 especially if the ,gods are in the mood to grant whatever he may request8 ,there is the story of ,oedipus1 for instance1 who prayed that his children might divide their inheritance between them by the sword3 he did not1 as he might have done1 beg that his present evils might be averted1 but called down new ones4 ,and was not his prayer accomplished1 and did not many and terrible evils thence arise1 upon which ,i need not dilate8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes1 ,socrates1 but you are speaking of a madman3 surely you do not think that any one in his senses would venture to make such a prayer8 ,,socrates3 ,madness1 then1 you consider to be the opposite of discretion8 ,,alcibiades3 ,of course4 ,,socrates3 ,and some men seem to you to be discreet1 and others the contrary8 ,,alcibiades3 ,they do4 ,,socrates3 ,well1 then1 let us discuss who these are4 ,we acknowledge that some are discreet1 some foolish1 and that some are mad8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,and again1 there are some who are in health8 ,,alcibiades3 ,there are4 ,,socrates3 ,while others are ailing8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,and they are not the same8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly not4 ,,socrates3 ,nor are there any who are in neither state8 ,,alcibiades3 ,no4 ,,socrates3 ,a man must either be sick or be well8 ,,alcibiades3 ,that is my opinion4 ,,socrates3 ,very good3 and do you think the same about discretion and want of discretion8 ,,alcibiades3 ,how do you mean8 ,,socrates3 ,do you believe that a man must be either in or out of his senses2 or is there some third or intermediate condition1 in which he is neither one nor the other8 ,,alcibiades3 ,decidedly not4 ,,socrates3 ,he must be either sane or insane8 ,,alcibiades3 ,so ,i suppose4 ,,socrates3 ,did you not acknowledge that madness was the opposite of discretion8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,and that there is no third or middle term between discretion and indiscretion8 ,,alcibiades3 ,true4 ,,socrates3 ,and there cannot be two opposites to one thing8 ,,alcibiades3 ,there cannot4 ,,socrates3 ,then madness and want of sense are the same8 ,,alcibiades3 ,that appears to be the case4 ,,socrates3 ,we shall be in the right1 therefore1 ,alcibiades1 if we say that all who are senseless are mad4 ,for example1 if among persons of your own age or older than yourself there are some who are senseless1--as there certainly are1--they are mad4 ,for tell me1 by heaven1 do you not think that in the city the wise are few1 while the foolish1 whom you call mad1 are many8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i do4 ,,socrates3 ,but how could we live in safety with so many crazy people8 ,should we not long since have paid the penalty at their hands1 and have been struck and beaten and endured every other form of ill-usage which madmen are wont to inflict8 ,consider1 my dear friend3 may it not be quite otherwise8 ,,alcibiades3 ,why1 ,socrates1 how is that possible8 ,i must have been mistaken4 ,,socrates3 ,so it seems to me4 ,but perhaps we may consider the matter thus3-- ,,alcibiades3 ,how8 ,,socrates3 ,i will tell you4 ,we think that some are sick2 do we not8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,and must every sick person either have the gout1 or be in a fever1 or suffer from ophthalmia8 ,or do you believe that a man may labour under some other disease1 even although he has none of these complaints8 ,surely1 they are not the only maladies which exist8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly not4 ,,socrates3 ,and is every kind of ophthalmia a disease8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,and every disease ophthalmia8 ,,alcibiades3 ,surely not4 ,but ,i scarcely understand what ,i mean myself4 ,,socrates3 ,perhaps1 if you give me your best attention1 'two of us' looking together1 we may find what we seek4 ,,alcibiades3 ,i am attending1 ,socrates1 to the best of my power4 ,,socrates3 ,we are agreed1 then1 that every form of ophthalmia is a disease1 but not every disease ophthalmia8 ,,alcibiades3 ,we are4 ,,socrates3 ,and so far we seem to be right4 ,for every one who suffers from a fever is sick2 but the sick1 ,i conceive1 do not all have fever or gout or ophthalmia1 although each of these is a disease1 which1 according to those whom we call physicians1 may require a different treatment4 ,they are not all alike1 nor do they produce the same result1 but each has its own effect1 and yet they are all diseases4 ,may we not take an illustration from the artizans8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly4 ,,socrates3 ,there are cobblers and carpenters and sculptors and others of all sorts and kinds1 whom we need not stop to enumerate4 ,all have their distinct employments and all are workmen1 although they are not all of them cobblers or carpenters or sculptors4 ,,alcibiades3 ,no1 indeed4 ,,socrates3 ,and in like manner men differ in regard to want of sense4 ,those who are most out of their wits we call 'madmen1' while we term those who are less far gone 'stupid' or 'idiotic1' or1 if we prefer gentler language1 describe them as 'romantic' or 'simple-minded1' or1 again1 as 'innocent' or 'inexperienced' or 'foolish4' ,you may even find other names1 if you seek for them2 but by all of them lack of sense is intended4 ,they only differ as one art appeared to us to differ from another or one disease from another4 ,or what is your opinion8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i agree with you4 ,,socrates3 ,then let us return to the point at which we digressed4 ,we said at first that we should have to consider who were the wise and who the foolish4 ,for we acknowledged that there are these two classes8 ,did we not8 ,,alcibiades3 ,to be sure4 ,,socrates3 ,and you regard those as sensible who know what ought to be done or said8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,the senseless are those who do not know this8 ,,alcibiades3 ,true4 ,,socrates3 ,the latter will say or do what they ought not without their own knowledge8 ,,alcibiades3 ,exactly4 ,,socrates3 ,oedipus1 as ,i was saying1 ,alcibiades1 was a person of this sort4 ,and even now-a-days you will find many who 7have offered inauspicious prayers71 although1 unlike him1 they were not in anger nor thought that they were asking evil4 ,he neither sought1 nor supposed that he sought for good1 but others have had quite the contrary notion4 ,i believe that if the ,god whom you are about to consult should appear to you1 and1 in anticipation of your request1 enquired whether you would be contented to become tyrant of ,athens1 and if this seemed in your eyes a small and mean thing1 should add to it the dominion of all ,hellas2 and seeing that even then you would not be satisfied unless you were ruler of the whole of ,europe1 should promise1 not only that1 but1 if you so desired1 should proclaim to all mankind in one and the same day that ,alcibiades1 son of ,cleinias1 was tyrant3--in such a case1 ,i imagine1 you would depart full of joy1 as one who had obtained the greatest of goods4 ,,alcibiades3 ,and not only ,i1 ,socrates1 but any one else who should meet with such luck4 ,,socrates3 ,yet you would not accept the dominion and lordship of all the ,hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly not3 for then what use could ,i make of them8 ,,socrates3 ,and would you accept them if you were likely to use them to a bad and mischievous end8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i would not4 ,,socrates3 ,you see that it is not safe for a man either rashly to accept whatever is offered him1 or himself to request a thing1 if he is likely to suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life4 ,and yet we could tell of many who1 having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain a tyranny1 thinking that thus they would procure an advantage1 have nevertheless fallen victims to designing enemies4 ,you must have heard of what happened only the other day1 how ,archelaus of ,macedonia was slain by his beloved 7compare ,aristotle1 ,pol471 whose love for the tyranny was not less than that of ,archelaus for him4 ,the tyrannicide expected by his crime to become tyrant and afterwards to have a happy life2 but when he had held the tyranny three or four days1 he was in his turn conspired against and slain4 ,or look at certain of our own citizens1--and of their actions we have been not hearers1 but eyewitnesses1--who have desired to obtain military command3 of those who have gained their object1 some are even to this day exiles from the city1 while others have lost their lives4 ,and even they who seem to have fared best1 have not only gone through many perils and terrors during their office1 but after their return home they have been beset by informers worse than they once were by their foes1 insomuch that several of them have wished that they had remained in a private station rather than have had the glories of command4 ,if1 indeed1 such perils and terrors were of profit to the commonwealth1 there would be reason in undergoing them2 but the very contrary is the case4 ,again1 you will find persons who have prayed for offspring1 and when their prayers were heard1 have fallen into the greatest pains and sufferings4 ,for some have begotten children who were utterly bad1 and have therefore passed all their days in misery1 while the parents of good children have undergone the misfortune of losing them1 and have been so little happier than the others that they would have preferred never to have had children rather than to have had them and lost them4 ,and yet1 although these and the like examples are manifest and known of all1 it is rare to find any one who has refused what has been offered him1 or1 if he were likely to gain aught by prayer1 has refrained from making his petition4 ,the mass of mankind would not decline to accept a tyranny1 or the command of an army1 or any of the numerous things which cause more harm than good3 but rather1 if they had them not1 would have prayed to obtain them4 ,and often in a short space of time they change their tone1 and wish their old prayers unsaid4 ,wherefore also ,i suspect that men are entirely wrong when they blame the gods as the authors of the ills which befall them 7compare ,republic73 'their own presumption1' or folly 7whichever is the right word7-- ',has brought these unmeasured woes upon them4' 7,homer4 ,odyss47 ,he must have been a wise poet1 ,alcibiades1 who1 seeing as ,i believe1 his friends foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really profit them1 offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all3-- ',king ,zeus1 grant us good whether prayed for or unsought by us2 ,but that which we ask amiss1 do thou avert4' 7,the author of these lines1 which are probably of ,pythagorean origin1 is unknown4 ,they are found also in the ,anthology 7,anth4 ,pal4747 ,in my opinion1 ,i say1 the poet spoke both well and prudently2 but if you have anything to say in answer to him1 speak out4 ,,alcibiades3 ,it is difficult1 ,socrates1 to oppose what has been well said4 ,and ,i perceive how many are the ills of which ignorance is the cause1 since1 as would appear1 through ignorance we not only do1 but what is worse1 pray for the greatest evils4 ,no man would imagine that he would do so2 he would rather suppose that he was quite capable of praying for what was best3 to call down evils seems more like a curse than a prayer4 ,,socrates3 ,but perhaps1 my good friend1 some one who is wiser than either you or ,i will say that we have no right to blame ignorance thus rashly1 unless we can add what ignorance we mean and of what1 and also to whom and how it is respectively a good or an evil8 ,,alcibiades3 ,how do you mean8 ,can ignorance possibly be better than knowledge for any person in any conceivable case8 ,,socrates3 ,so ,i believe3--you do not think so8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly not4 ,,socrates3 ,and yet surely ,i may not suppose that you would ever wish to act towards your mother as they say that ,orestes and ,alcmeon and others have done towards their parent4 ,,alcibiades3 ,good words1 ,socrates1 prithee4 ,,socrates3 ,you ought not to bid him use auspicious words1 who says that you would not be willing to commit so horrible a deed1 but rather him who affirms the contrary1 if the act appear to you unfit even to be mentioned4 ,or do you think that ,orestes1 had he been in his senses and knew what was best for him to do1 would ever have dared to venture on such a crime8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly not4 ,,socrates3 ,nor would any one else1 ,i fancy8 ,,alcibiades3 ,no4 ,,socrates3 ,that ignorance is bad then1 it would appear1 which is of the best and does not know what is best8 ,,alcibiades3 ,so ,i think1 at least4 ,,socrates3 ,and both to the person who is ignorant and everybody else8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,let us take another case4 ,suppose that you were suddenly to get into your head that it would be a good thing to kill ,pericles1 your kinsman and guardian1 and were to seize a sword and1 going to the doors of his house1 were to enquire if he were at home1 meaning to slay only him and no one else3--the servants reply1 ',yes'3 7,mind1 ,i do not mean that you would really do such a thing2 but there is nothing1 you think1 to prevent a man who is ignorant of the best1 having occasionally the whim that what is worst is best8 ,,alcibiades3 ,no47 ,,socrates3--,if1 then1 you went indoors1 and seeing him1 did not know him1 but thought that he was some one else1 would you venture to slay him8 ,,alcibiades3 ,most decidedly not 7it seems to me74 7,these words are omitted in several ,,mss47 ,,socrates3 ,for you designed to kill1 not the first who offered1 but ,pericles himself8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly4 ,,socrates3 ,and if you made many attempts1 and each time failed to recognize ,pericles1 you would never attack him8 ,,alcibiades3 ,never4 ,,socrates3 ,well1 but if ,orestes in like manner had not known his mother1 do you think that he would ever have laid hands upon her8 ,,alcibiades3 ,no4 ,,socrates3 ,he did not intend to slay the first woman he came across1 nor any one else's mother1 but only his own8 ,,alcibiades3 ,true4 ,,socrates3 ,ignorance1 then1 is better for those who are in such a frame of mind1 and have such ideas8 ,,alcibiades3 ,obviously4 ,,socrates3 ,you acknowledge that for some persons in certain cases the ignorance of some things is a good and not an evil1 as you formerly supposed8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i do4 ,,socrates3 ,and there is still another case which will also perhaps appear strange to you1 if you will consider it8 7,the reading is here uncertain47 ,,alcibiades3 ,what is that1 ,socrates8 ,,socrates3 ,it may be1 in short1 that the possession of all the sciences1 if unaccompanied by the knowledge of the best1 will more often than not injure the possessor4 ,consider the matter thus3--,must we not1 when we intend either to do or say anything1 suppose that we know or ought to know that which we propose so confidently to do or say8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes1 in my opinion4 ,,socrates3 ,we may take the orators for an example1 who from time to time advise us about war and peace1 or the building of walls and the construction of harbours1 whether they understand the business in hand1 or only think that they do4 ,whatever the city1 in a word1 does to another city1 or in the management of her own affairs1 all happens by the counsel of the orators4 ,,alcibiades3 ,true4 ,,socrates3 ,but now see what follows1 if ,i can 7make it clear to you74 7,some words appear to have dropped out here47 ,you would distinguish the wise from the foolish8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,the many are foolish1 the few wise8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly4 ,,socrates3 ,and you use both the terms1 'wise' and 'foolish1' in reference to something8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i do4 ,,socrates3 ,would you call a person wise who can give advice1 but does not know whether or when it is better to carry out the advice8 ,,alcibiades3 ,decidedly not4 ,,socrates3 ,nor again1 ,i suppose1 a person who knows the art of war1 but does not know whether it is better to go to war or for how long8 ,,alcibiades3 ,no4 ,,socrates3 ,nor1 once more1 a person who knows how to kill another or to take away his property or to drive him from his native land1 but not when it is better to do so or for whom it is better8 ,,alcibiades3 ,certainly not4 ,,socrates3 ,but he who understands anything of the kind and has at the same time the knowledge of the best course of action3--and the best and the useful are surely the same8-- ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3--,such an one1 ,i say1 we should call wise and a useful adviser both of himself and of the city4 ,what do you think8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i agree4 ,,socrates3 ,and if any one knows how to ride or to shoot with the bow or to box or to wrestle1 or to engage in any other sort of contest or to do anything whatever which is in the nature of an art1--what do you call him who knows what is best according to that art8 ,do you not speak of one who knows what is best in riding as a good rider8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,and in a similar way you speak of a good boxer or a good flute-player or a good performer in any other art8 ,,alcibiades3 ,true4 ,,socrates3 ,but is it necessary that the man who is clever in any of these arts should be wise also in general8 ,or is there a difference between the clever artist and the wise man8 ,,alcibiades3 ,all the difference in the world4 ,,socrates3 ,and what sort of a state do you think that would be which was composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in other arts1 and besides them of those others about whom we spoke1 who knew how to go to war and how to kill1 as well as of orators puffed up with political pride1 but in which not one of them all had this knowledge of the best1 and there was no one who could tell when it was better to apply any of these arts or in regard to whom8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i should call such a state bad1 ,socrates4 ,,socrates3 ,you certainly would when you saw each of them rivalling the other and esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state1 ',wherein he himself most excelled4' 7,euripides1 ,antiope47 --,i mean that which was best in any art1 while he was entirely ignorant of what was best for himself and for the state1 because1 as ,i think1 he trusts to opinion which is devoid of intelligence4 ,in such a case should we not be right if we said that the state would be full of anarchy and lawlessness8 ,,alcibiades3 ,decidedly4 ,,socrates3 ,but ought we not then1 think you1 either to fancy that we know or really to know1 what we confidently propose to do or say8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,and if a person does that which he knows or supposes that he knows1 and the result is beneficial1 he will act advantageously both for himself and for the state8 ,,alcibiades3 ,true4 ,,socrates3 ,and if he do the contrary1 both he and the state will suffer8 ,,alcibiades3 ,yes4 ,,socrates3 ,well1 and are you of the same mind1 as before8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i am4 ,,socrates3 ,but were you not saying that you would call the many unwise and the few wise8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i was4 ,,socrates3 ,and have we not come back to our old assertion that the many fail to obtain the best because they trust to opinion which is devoid of intelligence8 ,,alcibiades3 ,that is the case4 ,,socrates3 ,it is good1 then1 for the many1 if they particularly desire to do that which they know or suppose that they know1 neither to know nor to suppose that they know1 in cases where if they carry out their ideas in action they will be losers rather than gainers8 ,,alcibiades3 ,what you say is very true4 ,,socrates3 ,do you not see that ,i was really speaking the truth when ,i affirmed that the possession of any other kind of knowledge was more likely to injure than to benefit the possessor1 unless he had also the knowledge of the best8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i do now1 if ,i did not before1 ,socrates4 ,,socrates3 ,the state or the soul1 therefore1 which wishes to have a right existence must hold firmly to this knowledge1 just as the sick man clings to the physician1 or the passenger depends for safety on the pilot4 ,and if the soul does not set sail until she have obtained this she will be all the safer in the voyage through life4 ,but when she rushes in pursuit of wealth or bodily strength or anything else1 not having the knowledge of the best1 so much the more is she likely to meet with misfortune4 ,and he who has the love of learning 7,or1 reading polumatheian1 'abundant learning4'71 and is skilful in many arts1 and does not possess the knowledge of the best1 but is under some other guidance1 will make1 as he deserves1 a sorry voyage3--he will1 ,i believe1 hurry through the brief space of human life1 pilotless in mid-ocean1 and the words will apply to him in which the poet blamed his enemy3-- '444,full many a thing he knew2 ,but knew them all badly4' 7,a fragment from the pseudo-,homeric poem1 ',margites4'7 ,,alcibiades3 ,how in the world1 ,socrates1 do the words of the poet apply to him8 ,they seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever4 ,,socrates3 ,quite the contrary1 my sweet friend3 only the poet is talking in riddles after the fashion of his tribe4 ,for all poetry has by nature an enigmatical character1 and it is by no means everybody who can interpret it4 ,and if1 moreover1 the spirit of poetry happen to seize on a man who is of a begrudging temper and does not care to manifest his wisdom but keeps it to himself as far as he can1 it does indeed require an almost superhuman wisdom to discover what the poet would be at4 ,you surely do not suppose that ,homer1 the wisest and most divine of poets1 was unaware of the impossibility of knowing a thing badly3 for it was no less a person than he who said of ,margites that 'he knew many things1 but knew them all badly4' ,the solution of the riddle is this1 ,i imagine3--,by 'badly' ,homer meant 'bad' and 'knew' stands for 'to know4' ,put the words together2--the metre will suffer1 but the poet's meaning is clear2--',margites knew all these things1 but it was bad for him to know them4' ,and1 obviously1 if it was bad for him to know so many things1 he must have been a good-for-nothing1 unless the argument has played us false4 ,,alcibiades3 ,but ,i do not think that it has1 ,socrates3 at least1 if the argument is fallacious1 it would be difficult for me to find another which ,i could trust4 ,,socrates3 ,and you are right in thinking so4 ,,alcibiades3 ,well1 that is my opinion4 ,,socrates3 ,but tell me1 by ,heaven3--you must see now the nature and greatness of the difficulty in which you1 like others1 have your part4 ,for you change about in all directions1 and never come to rest anywhere3 what you once most strongly inclined to suppose1 you put aside again and quite alter your mind4 ,if the ,god to whose shrine you are going should appear at this moment1 and ask before you made your prayer1 ',whether you would desire to have one of the things which we mentioned at first1 or whether he should leave you to make your own request3'--what in either case1 think you1 would be the best way to take advantage of the opportunity8 ,,alcibiades3 ,indeed1 ,socrates1 ,i could not answer you without consideration4 ,it seems to me to be a wild thing 7,the ,homeric word margos is said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation from the ',margites' which ,socrates has just made2 but it is not used in the sense which it has in ,homer47 to make such a request2 a man must be very careful lest he pray for evil under the idea that he is asking for good1 when shortly after he may have to recall his prayer1 and1 as you were saying1 demand the opposite of what he at first requested4 ,,socrates3 ,and was not the poet whose words ,i originally quoted wiser than we are1 when he bade us 7pray ,god7 to defend us from evil even though we asked for it8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i believe that you are right4 ,,socrates3 ,the ,lacedaemonians1 too1 whether from admiration of the poet or because they have discovered the idea for themselves1 are wont to offer the prayer alike in public and private1 that the ,gods will give unto them the beautiful as well as the good3--no one is likely to hear them make any further petition4 ,and yet up to the present time they have not been less fortunate than other men2 or if they have sometimes met with misfortune1 the fault has not been due to their prayer4 ,for surely1 as ,i conceive1 the ,gods have power either to grant our requests1 or to send us the contrary of what we ask4 ,and now ,i will relate to you a story which ,i have heard from certain of our elders4 ,it chanced that when the ,athenians and ,lacedaemonians were at war1 our city lost every battle by land and sea and never gained a victory4 ,the ,athenians being annoyed and perplexed how to find a remedy for their troubles1 decided to send and enquire at the shrine of ,ammon4 ,their envoys were also to ask1 ',why the ,gods always granted the victory to the ,lacedaemonians8' ',we1' 7they were to say17 'offer them more and finer sacrifices than any other ,hellenic state1 and adorn their temples with gifts1 as nobody else does2 moreover1 we make the most solemn and costly processions to them every year1 and spend more money in their service than all the rest of the ,hellenes put together4 ,but the ,lacedaemonians take no thought of such matters1 and pay so little respect to the ,gods that they have a habit of sacrificing blemished animals to them1 and in various ways are less zealous than we are1 although their wealth is quite equal to ours4' ,when they had thus spoken1 and had made their request to know what remedy they could find against the evils which troubled them1 the prophet made no direct answer1--clearly because he was not allowed by the ,god to do so2--but he summoned them to him and said3 ',thus saith ,ammon to the ,athenians3 ,the silent worship of the ,lacedaemonians pleaseth me better than all the offerings of the other ,hellenes4' ,such were the words of the ,god1 and nothing more4 ,he seems to have meant by 'silent worship' the prayer of the ,lacedaemonians1 which is indeed widely different from the usual requests of the ,hellenes4 ,for they either bring to the altar bulls with gilded horns or make offerings to the ,gods1 and beg at random for what they need1 good or bad4 ,when1 therefore1 the ,gods hear them using words of ill omen they reject these costly processions and sacrifices of theirs4 ,and we ought1 ,i think1 to be very careful and consider well what we should say and what leave unsaid4 ,homer1 too1 will furnish us with similar stories4 ,for he tells us how the ,trojans in making their encampment1 ',offered up whole hecatombs to the immortals1' and how the 'sweet savour' was borne 'to the heavens by the winds2 ',but the blessed ,gods were averse and received it not4 ,for exceedingly did they hate the holy ,ilium1 ,both ,priam and the people of the spear-skilled king4' ,so that it was in vain for them to sacrifice and offer gifts1 seeing that they were hateful to the ,gods1 who are not1 like vile usurers1 to be gained over by bribes4 ,and it is foolish for us to boast that we are superior to the ,lacedaemonians by reason of our much worship4 ,the idea is inconceivable that the ,gods have regard1 not to the justice and purity of our souls1 but to costly processions and sacrifices1 which men may celebrate year after year1 although they have committed innumerable crimes against the ,gods or against their fellow-men or the state4 ,for the ,gods1 as ,ammon and his prophet declare1 are no receivers of gifts1 and they scorn such unworthy service4 ,wherefore also it would seem that wisdom and justice are especially honoured both by the ,gods and by men of sense2 and they are the wisest and most just who know how to speak and act towards ,gods and men4 ,but ,i should like to hear what your opinion is about these matters4 ,,alcibiades3 ,i agree1 ,socrates1 with you and with the ,god1 whom1 indeed1 it would be unbecoming for me to oppose4 ,,socrates3 ,do you not remember saying that you were in great perplexity1 lest perchance you should ask for evil1 supposing that you were asking for good8 ,,alcibiades3 ,i do4 ,,socrates3 ,you see1 then1 that there is a risk in your approaching the ,god in prayer1 lest haply he should refuse your sacrifice when he hears the blasphemy which you utter1 and make you partake of other evils as well4 ,the wisest plan1 therefore1 seems to me that you should keep silence2 for your 'highmindedness'--to use the mildest term which men apply to folly--will most likely prevent you from using the prayer of the ,lacedaemonians4 ,you had better wait until we find out how we should behave towards the ,gods and towards men4 ,,alcibiades3 ,and how long must ,i wait1 ,socrates1 and who will be my teacher8 ,i should be very glad to see the man4 ,,socrates3 ,it is he who takes an especial interest in you4 ,but first of all1 ,i think1 the darkness must be taken away in which your soul is now enveloped1 just as ,athene in ,homer removes the mist from the eyes of ,diomede that ',he may distinguish between ,god and mortal man4' ,afterwards the means may be given to you whereby you may distinguish between good and evil4 ,at present1 ,i fear1 this is beyond your power4 ,,alcibiades3 ,only let my instructor take away the impediment1 whether it pleases him to call it mist or anything else6 ,i care not who he is2 but ,i am resolved to disobey none of his commands1 if ,i am likely to be the better for them4 ,,socrates3 ,and surely he has a wondrous care for you4 ,,alcibiades3 ,it seems to be altogether advisable to put off the sacrifice until he is found4 ,,socrates3 ,you are right3 that will be safer than running such a tremendous risk4 ,,alcibiades3 ,but how shall we manage1 ,socrates8--,at any rate ,i will set this crown of mine upon your head1 as you have given me such excellent advice1 and to the ,gods we will offer crowns and perform the other customary rites when ,i see that day approaching3 nor will it be long hence1 if they so will4 ,,socrates3 ,i accept your gift1 and shall be ready and willing to receive whatever else you may proffer4 ,euripides makes ,creon say in the play1 when he beholds ,teiresias with his crown and hears that he has gained it by his skill as the first-fruits of the spoil3-- ',an auspicious omen ,i deem thy victor's wreath3 ,for well thou knowest that wave and storm oppress us4' ,and so ,i count your gift to be a token of good-fortune2 for ,i am in no less stress than ,creon1 and would fain carry off the victory over your lovers4