,,lesser ,,hippias  by ,plato  7see     
,appendix ,i7   ,translated by ,benjamin
 ,jowett     ,,appendix ,i4  ,it seems  
impossible to separate by any exact line
 the genuine writings of ,plato from the
 spurious4 ,the only external evidence  
to them which is of much value is that  
of ,aristotle2 for the ,alexandrian     
catalogues of a century later include   
manifest forgeries4 ,even the value of  
the ,aristotelian authority is a good   
deal impaired by the uncertainty        
concerning the date and authorship of   
the writings which are ascribed to him4 
,and several of the citations of        
,aristotle omit the name of ,plato1 and 
some of them omit the name of the       
dialogue from which they are taken4     
,prior1 however1 to the enquiry about   
the writings of a particular author1    
general considerations which equally    
affect all evidence to the genuineness  
of ancient writings are the following3  
,shorter works are more likely to have  
been forged1 or to have received an     

erroneous designation1 than longer ones2
 and some kinds of composition1 such as 
epistles or panegyrical orations1 are   
more liable to suspicion than others2   
those1 again1 which have a taste of     
sophistry in them1 or the ring of a     
later age1 or the slighter character of 
a rhetorical exercise1 or in which a    
motive or some affinity to spurious     
writings can be detected1 or which seem 
to have originated in a name or         
statement really occurring in some      
classical author1 are also of doubtful  
credit2 while there is no instance of   
any ancient writing proved to be a      
forgery1 which combines excellence with 
length4 ,a really great and original    
writer would have no object in fathering
 his works on ,plato2 and to the forger 
or imitator1 the 'literary hack' of     
,alexandria and ,athens1 the ,gods did  
not grant originality or genius4        
,further1 in attempting to balance the  
evidence for and against a ,platonic    
dialogue1 we must not forget that the   

form of the ,platonic writing was common
 to several of his contemporaries4      
,aeschines1 ,euclid1 ,phaedo1           
,antisthenes1 and in the next generation
 ,aristotle1 are all said to have       
composed dialogues2 and mistakes of     
names are very likely to have occurred4 
,greek literature in the third century  
before ,christ was almost as voluminous 
as our own1 and without the safeguards  
of regular publication1 or printing1 or 
binding1 or even of distinct titles4 ,an
 unknown writing was naturally          
attributed to a known writer whose works
 bore the same character2 and the name  
once appended easily obtained authority4
 ,a tendency may also be observed to    
blend the works and opinions of the     
master with those of his scholars4 ,to a
 later ,platonist1 the difference       
between ,plato and his imitators was not
 so perceptible as to ourselves4 ,the   
,memorabilia of ,xenophon and the       
,dialogues of ,plato are but a part of a
 considerable ,socratic literature which

 has passed away4 ,and we must consider 
how we should regard the question of the
 genuineness of a particular writing1 if
 this lost literature had been preserved
 to us4  ,these considerations lead us  
to adopt the following criteria of      
genuineness3 7#a7 ,that is most         
certainly ,plato's which ,aristotle     
attributes to him by name1 which 7#b7 is
 of considerable length1 of 7#c7 great  
excellence1 and also 7#d7 in harmony    
with the general spirit of the ,platonic
 writings4 ,but the testimony of        
,aristotle cannot always be             
distinguished from that of a later age  
7see above72 and has various degrees of 
importance4 ,those writings which he    
cites without mentioning ,plato1 under  
their own names1 e4g4 the ,hippias1 the 
,funeral ,oration1 the ,phaedo1 etc41   
have an inferior degree of evidence in  
their favour4 ,they may have been       
supposed by him to be the writings of   
another1 although in the case of really 
great works1 e4g4 the ,phaedo1 this is  

not credible2 those again which are     
quoted but not named1 are still more    
defective in their external credentials4
 ,there may be also a possibility that  
,aristotle was mistaken1 or may have    
confused the master and his scholars in 
the case of a short writing2 but this is
 inconceivable about a more important   
work1 e4g4 the ,laws1 especially when we
 remember that he was living at ,athens1
 and a frequenter of the groves of the  
,academy1 during the last twenty years  
of ,plato's life4 ,nor must we forget   
that in all his numerous citations from 
the ,platonic writings he never         
attributes any passage found in the     
extant dialogues to any one but ,plato4 
,and lastly1 we may remark that one or  
two great writings1 such as the         
,parmenides and the ,politicus1 which   
are wholly devoid of ,aristotelian 7#a7 
credentials may be fairly attributed to 
,plato1 on the ground of 7#b7 length1   
7#c7 excellence1 and 7#d7 accordance    
with the general spirit of his writings4

 ,indeed the greater part of the        
evidence for the genuineness of ancient 
,greek authors may be summed up under   
two heads only3 7#a7 excellence2 and    
7#b7 uniformity of tradition--a kind of 
evidence1 which though in many cases    
sufficient1 is of inferior value4       
,proceeding upon these principles we    
appear to arrive at the conclusion that 
nineteen-twentieths of all the writings 
which have ever been ascribed to ,plato1
 are undoubtedly genuine4 ,there is     
another portion of them1 including the  
,epistles1 the ,epinomis1 the dialogues 
rejected by the ancients themselves1    
namely1 the ,axiochus1 ,de justo1 ,de   
virtute1 ,demodocus1 ,sisyphus1         
,eryxias1 which on grounds1 both of     
internal and external evidence1 we are  
able with equal certainty to reject4    
,but there still remains a small portion
 of which we are unable to affirm either
 that they are genuine or spurious4     
,they may have been written in youth1 or
 possibly like the works of some        

painters1 may be partly or wholly the   
compositions of pupils2 or they may have
 been the writings of some contemporary 
transferred by accident to the more     
celebrated name of ,plato1 or of some   
,platonist in the next generation who   
aspired to imitate his master4 ,not that
 on grounds either of language or       
philosophy we should lightly reject     
them4 ,some difference of style1 or     
inferiority of execution1 or            
inconsistency of thought1 can hardly be 
considered decisive of their spurious   
character4 ,for who always does justice 
to himself1 or who writes with equal    
care at all times8 ,certainly not       
,plato1 who exhibits the greatest       
differences in dramatic power1 in the   
formation of sentences1 and in the use  
of words1 if his earlier writings are   
compared with his later ones1 say the   
,protagoras or ,phaedrus with the ,laws4
 ,or who can be expected to think in the
 same manner during a period of         
authorship extending over above fifty   

years1 in an age of great intellectual  
activity1 as well as of political and   
literary transition8 ,certainly not     
,plato1 whose earlier writings are      
separated from his later ones by as wide
 an interval of philosophical           
speculation as that which separates his 
later writings from ,aristotle4  ,the   
dialogues which have been translated in 
the first ,appendix1 and which appear to
 have the next claim to genuineness     
among the ,platonic writings1 are the   
,lesser ,hippias1 the ,menexenus or     
,funeral ,oration1 the ,first           
,alcibiades4 ,of these1 the ,lesser     
,hippias and the ,funeral ,oration are  
cited by ,aristotle2 the first in the   
,metaphysics1 the latter in the         
,rhetoric4 ,neither of them are         
expressly attributed to ,plato1 but in  
his citation of both of them he seems to
 be referring to passages in the extant 
dialogues4 ,from the mention of         
',hippias' in the singular by           
,aristotle1 we may perhaps infer that he

 was unacquainted with a second dialogue
 bearing the same name4 ,moreover1 the  
mere existence of a ,greater and ,lesser
 ,hippias1 and of a ,first and ,second  
,alcibiades1 does to a certain extent   
throw a doubt upon both of them4 ,though
 a very clever and ingenious work1 the  
,lesser ,hippias does not appear to     
contain anything beyond the power of an 
imitator1 who was also a careful student
 of the earlier ,platonic writings1 to  
invent4 ,the motive or leading thought  
of the dialogue may be detected in ,xen4
 ,mem41 and there is no similar instance
 of a 'motive' which is taken from      
,xenophon in an undoubted dialogue of   
,plato4 ,on the other hand1 the         
upholders of the genuineness of the     
dialogue will find in the ,hippias a    
true ,socratic spirit2 they will compare
 the ,ion as being akin both in subject 
and treatment2 they will urge the       
authority of ,aristotle2 and they will  
detect in the treatment of the ,sophist1
 in the satirical reasoning upon ,homer1

 in the reductio ad absurdum of the     
doctrine that vice is ignorance1 traces 
of a ,platonic authorship4 ,in reference
 to the last point we are doubtful1 as  
in some of the other dialogues1 whether 
the author is asserting or overthrowing 
the paradox of ,socrates1 or merely     
following the argument 'whither the wind
 blows4' ,that no conclusion is arrived 
at is also in accordance with the       
character of the earlier dialogues4 ,the
 resemblances or imitations of the      
,gorgias1 ,protagoras1 and ,euthydemus1 
which have been observed in the         
,hippias1 cannot with certainty be      
adduced on either side of the argument4 
,on the whole1 more may be said in      
favour of the genuineness of the        
,hippias than against it4  ,the         
,menexenus or ,funeral ,oration is cited
 by ,aristotle1 and is interesting as   
supplying an example of the manner in   
which the orators praised 'the          
,athenians among the ,athenians1'       
falsifying persons and dates1 and       

casting a veil over the gloomier events 
of ,athenian history4 ,it exhibits an   
acquaintance with the funeral oration of
 ,thucydides1 and was1 perhaps1 intended
 to rival that great work4 ,if genuine1 
the proper place of the ,menexenus would
 be at the end of the ,phaedrus4 ,the   
satirical opening and the concluding    
words bear a great resemblance to the   
earlier dialogues2 the oration itself is
 professedly a mimetic work1 like the   
speeches in the ,phaedrus1 and cannot   
therefore be tested by a comparison of  
the other writings of ,plato4 ,the      
funeral oration of ,pericles is         
expressly mentioned in the ,phaedrus1   
and this may have suggested the subject1
 in the same manner that the ,cleitophon
 appears to be suggested by the slight  
mention of ,cleitophon and his          
attachment to ,thrasymachus in the      
,republic2 and the ,theages by the      
mention of ,theages in the ,apology and 
,republic2 or as the ,second ,alcibiades
 seems to be founded upon the text of   

,xenophon1 ,mem4 ,a similar taste for   
parody appears not only in the          
,phaedrus1 but in the ,protagoras1 in   
the ,symposium1 and to a certain extent 
in the ,parmenides4  ,to these two      
doubtful writings of ,plato ,i have     
added the ,first ,alcibiades1 which1 of 
all the disputed dialogues of ,plato1   
has the greatest merit1 and is somewhat 
longer than any of them1 though not     
verified by the testimony of ,aristotle1
 and in many respects at variance with  
the ,symposium in the description of the
 relations of ,socrates and ,alcibiades4
 ,like the ,lesser ,hippias and the     
,menexenus1 it is to be compared to the 
earlier writings of ,plato4 ,the motive 
of the piece may1 perhaps1 be found in  
that passage of the ,symposium in which 
,alcibiades describes himself as        
self-convicted by the words of          
,socrates4 ,for the disparaging manner  
in which ,schleiermacher has spoken of  
this dialogue there seems to be no      
sufficient foundation4 ,at the same     

time1 the lesson imparted is simple1 and
 the irony more transparent than in the 
undoubted dialogues of ,plato4 ,we know1
 too1 that ,alcibiades was a favourite  
thesis1 and that at least five or six   
dialogues bearing this name passed      
current in antiquity1 and are attributed
 to contemporaries of ,socrates and     
,plato4 7#a7 ,in the entire absence of  
real external evidence 7for the         
catalogues of the ,alexandrian          
librarians cannot be regarded as        
trustworthy72 and 7#b7 in the absence of
 the highest marks either of poetical or
 philosophical excellence2 and 7#c7     
considering that we have express        
testimony to the existence of           
contemporary writings bearing the name  
of ,alcibiades1 we are compelled to     
suspend our judgment on the genuineness 
of the extant dialogue4  ,neither at    
this point1 nor at any other1 do we     
propose to draw an absolute line of     
demarcation between genuine and spurious
 writings of ,plato4 ,they fade off     

imperceptibly from one class to another4
 ,there may have been degrees of        
genuineness in the dialogues themselves1
 as there are certainly degrees of      
evidence by which they are supported4   
,the traditions of the oral discourses  
both of ,socrates and ,plato may have   
formed the basis of semi-,platonic      
writings2 some of them may be of the    
same mixed character which is apparent  
in ,aristotle and ,hippocrates1 although
 the form of them is different4 ,but the
 writings of ,plato1 unlike the writings
 of ,aristotle1 seem never to have been 
confused with the writings of his       
disciples3 this was probably due to     
their definite form1 and to their       
inimitable excellence4 ,the three       
dialogues which we have offered in the  
,appendix to the criticism of the reader
 may be partly spurious and partly      
genuine2 they may be altogether         
spurious2--that is an alternative which 
must be frankly admitted4 ,nor can we   
maintain of some other dialogues1 such  

as the ,parmenides1 and the ,sophist1   
and ,politicus1 that no considerable    
objection can be urged against them1    
though greatly overbalanced by the      
weight 7chiefly7 of internal evidence in
 their favour4 ,nor1 on the other hand1 
can we exclude a bare possibility that  
some dialogues which are usually        
rejected1 such as the ,greater ,hippias 
and the ,cleitophon1 may be genuine4    
,the nature and object of these         
semi-,platonic writings require more    
careful study and more comparison of    
them with one another1 and with forged  
writings in general1 than they have yet 
received1 before we can finally decide  
on their character4 ,we do not consider 
them all as genuine until they can be   
proved to be spurious1 as is often      
maintained and still more often implied 
in this and similar discussions2 but    
should say of some of them1 that their  
genuineness is neither proven nor       
disproven until further evidence about  
them can be adduced4 ,and we are as     

confident that the ,epistles are        
spurious1 as that the ,republic1 the    
,timaeus1 and the ,laws are genuine4    
,on the whole1 not a twentieth part of  
the writings which pass under the name  
of ,plato1 if we exclude the works      
rejected by the ancients themselves and 
two or three other plausible inventions1
 can be fairly doubted by those who are 
willing to allow that a considerable    
change and growth may have taken place  
in his philosophy 7see above74 ,that    
twentieth debatable portion scarcely in 
any degree affects our judgment of      
,plato1 either as a thinker or a writer1
 and though suggesting some interesting 
questions to the scholar and critic1 is 
of little importance to the general     
reader4     ,,lesser ,,hippias          
,,introduction4  ,the ,lesser ,hippias  
may be compared with the earlier        
dialogues of ,plato1 in which the       
contrast of ,socrates and the ,sophists 
is most strongly exhibited4 ,hippias1   
like ,protagoras and ,gorgias1 though   

civil1 is vain and boastful3 he knows   
all things2 he can make anything1       
including his own clothes2 he is a      
manufacturer of poems and declamations1 
and also of seal-rings1 shoes1 strigils2
 his girdle1 which he has woven himself1
 is of a finer than ,persian quality4   
,he is a vainer1 lighter nature than the
 two great ,sophists 7compare ,protag471
 but of the same character with them1   
and equally impatient of the short      
cut-and-thrust method of ,socrates1 whom
 he endeavours to draw into a long      
oration4 ,at last1 he gets tired of     
being defeated at every point by        
,socrates1 and is with difficulty       
induced to proceed 7compare             
,thrasymachus1 ,protagoras1 ,callicles1 
and others1 to whom the same reluctance 
is ascribed74  ,hippias like ,protagoras
 has common sense on his side1 when he  
argues1 citing passages of the ,iliad in
 support of his view1 that ,homer       
intended ,achilles to be the bravest1   
,odysseus the wisest of the ,greeks4    

,but he is easily overthrown by the     
superior dialectics of ,socrates1 who   
pretends to show that ,achilles is not  
true to his word1 and that no similar   
inconsistency is to be found in         
,odysseus4 ,hippias replies that        
,achilles unintentionally1 but ,odysseus
 intentionally1 speaks falsehood4 ,but  
is it better to do wrong intentionally  
or unintentionally8 ,socrates1 relying  
on the analogy of the arts1 maintains   
the former1 ,hippias the latter of the  
two alternatives444,all this is quite   
conceived in the spirit of ,plato1 who  
is very far from making ,socrates always
 argue on the side of truth4 ,the       
over-reasoning on ,homer1 which is of   
course satirical1 is also in the spirit 
of ,plato4 ,poetry turned logic is even 
more ridiculous than 'rhetoric turned   
logic1' and equally fallacious4 ,there  
were reasoners in ancient as well as in 
modern times1 who could never receive   
the natural impression of ,homer1 or of 
any other book which they read4 ,the    

argument of ,socrates1 in which he picks
 out the apparent inconsistencies and   
discrepancies in the speech and actions 
of ,achilles1 and the final paradox1    
'that he who is true is also false1'    
remind us of the interpretation by      
,socrates of ,simonides in the          
,protagoras1 and of similar reasonings  
in the first book of the ,republic4 ,the
 discrepancies which ,socrates discovers
 in the words of ,achilles are perhaps  
as great as those discovered by some of 
the modern separatists of the ,homeric  
poems444  ,at last1 ,socrates having    
caught ,hippias in the toils of the     
voluntary and involuntary1 is obliged to
 confess that he is wandering about in  
the same labyrinth2 he makes the        
reflection on himself which others would
 make upon him 7compare ,protagoras74   
,he does not wonder that he should be in
 a difficulty1 but he wonders at        
,hippias1 and he becomes sensible of the
 gravity of the situation1 when ordinary
 men like himself can no longer go to   

the wise and be taught by them4  ,it may
 be remarked as bearing on the          
genuineness of this dialogue3 7#a7 that 
the manners of the speakers are less    
subtle and refined than in the other    
dialogues of ,plato2 7#b7 that the      
sophistry of ,socrates is more palpable 
and unblushing1 and also more unmeaning2
 7#c7 that many turns of thought and    
style are found in it which appear also 
in the other dialogues3--whether        
resemblances of this kind tell in favour
 of or against the genuineness of an    
ancient writing1 is an important        
question which will have to be answered 
differently in different cases4 ,for    
that a writer may repeat himself is as  
true as that a forger may imitate2 and  
,plato elsewhere1 either of set purpose 
or from forgetfulness1 is full of       
repetitions4 ,the parallelisms of the   
,lesser ,hippias1 as already remarked1  
are not of the kind which necessarily   
imply that the dialogue is the work of a
 forger4 ,the parallelisms of the       

,greater ,hippias with the other        
dialogues1 and the allusion to the      
,lesser 7where ,hippias sketches the    
programme of his next lecture1 and      
invites ,socrates to attend and bring   
any friends with him who may be         
competent judges71 are more than        
suspicious3--they are of a very poor    
sort1 such as we cannot suppose to have 
been due to ,plato himself4 ,the        
,greater ,hippias more resembles the    
,euthydemus than any other dialogue2 but
 is immeasurably inferior to it4 ,the   
,lesser ,hippias seems to have more     
merit than the ,greater1 and to be more 
,platonic in spirit4 ,the character of  
,hippias is the same in both dialogues1 
but his vanity and boasting are even    
more exaggerated in the ,greater        
,hippias4 ,his art of memory is         
specially mentioned in both4 ,he is an  
inferior type of the same species as    
,hippodamus of ,miletus 7,arist4 ,pol474
 ,some passages in which the ,lesser    
,hippias may be advantageously compared 

with the undoubtedly genuine dialogues  
of ,plato are the following3--,less4    
,hipp43 compare ,republic 7,socrates'   
cunning in argument73 compare ,laches   
7,socrates' feeling about arguments73   
compare ,republic 7,socrates not        
unthankful73 compare ,republic          
7,socrates dishonest in argument74  ,the
 ,lesser ,hippias1 though inferior to   
the other dialogues1 may be reasonably  
believed to have been written by ,plato1
 on the ground 7#a7 of considerable     
excellence2 7#b7 of uniform tradition   
beginning with ,aristotle and his       
school4 ,that the dialogue falls below  
the standard of ,plato's other works1 or
 that he has attributed to ,socrates an 
unmeaning paradox 7perhaps with the view
 of showing that he could beat the      
,sophists at their own weapons2 or that 
he could 'make the worse appear the     
better cause'2 or merely as a           
dialectical experiment7--are not        
sufficient reasons for doubting the     
genuineness of the work4     ,,persons  

,,of ,,the ,,dialogue3 ,eudicus1        
,socrates1 ,hippias4   ,,eudicus3 ,why  
are you silent1 ,socrates1 after the    
magnificent display which ,hippias has  
been making8 ,why do you not either     
refute his words1 if he seems to you to 
have been wrong in any point1 or join   
with us in commending him8 ,there is the
 more reason why you should speak1      
because we are now alone1 and the       
audience is confined to those who may   
fairly claim to take part in a          
philosophical discussion4  ,,socrates3  
,i should greatly like1 ,eudicus1 to ask
 ,hippias the meaning of what he was    
saying just now about ,homer4 ,i have   
heard your father1 ,apemantus1 declare  
that the ,iliad of ,homer is a finer    
poem than the ,odyssey in the same      
degree that ,achilles was a better man  
than ,odysseus2 ,odysseus1 he would say1
 is the central figure of the one poem  
and ,achilles of the other4 ,now1 ,i    
should like to know1 if ,hippias has no 
objection to tell me1 what he thinks    

about these two heroes1 and which of    
them he maintains to be the better2 he  
has already told us in the course of his
 exhibition many things of various kinds
 about ,homer and divers other poets4   
,,eudicus3 ,i am sure that ,hippias will
 be delighted to answer anything which  
you would like to ask2 tell me1         
,hippias1 if ,socrates asks you a       
question1 will you answer him8          
,,hippias3 ,indeed1 ,eudicus1 ,i should 
be strangely inconsistent if ,i refused 
to answer ,socrates1 when at each       
,olympic festival1 as ,i went up from my
 house at ,elis to the temple of        
,olympia1 where all the ,hellenes were  
assembled1 ,i continually professed my  
willingness to perform any of the       
exhibitions which ,i had prepared1 and  
to answer any questions which any one   
had to ask4  ,,socrates3 ,truly1        
,hippias1 you are to be congratulated1  
if at every ,olympic festival you have  
such an encouraging opinion of your own 
wisdom when you go up to the temple4 ,i 

doubt whether any muscular hero would be
 so fearless and confident in offering  
his body to the combat at ,olympia1 as  
you are in offering your mind4          
,,hippias3 ,and with good reason1       
,socrates2 for since the day when ,i    
first entered the lists at ,olympia ,i  
have never found any man who was my     
superior in anything4 7,compare         
,gorgias47  ,,socrates3 ,what an        
ornament1 ,hippias1 will the reputation 
of your wisdom be to the city of ,elis  
and to your parents6 ,but to return3    
what say you of ,odysseus and ,achilles8
 ,which is the better of the two8 and in
 what particular does either surpass the
 other8 ,for when you were exhibiting   
and there was company in the room1      
though ,i could not follow you1 ,i did  
not like to ask what you meant1 because 
a crowd of people were present1 and ,i  
was afraid that the question might      
interrupt your exhibition4 ,but now that
 there are not so many of us1 and my    
friend ,eudicus bids me ask1 ,i wish you

 would tell me what you were saying     
about these two heroes1 so that ,i may  
clearly understand2 how did you         
distinguish them8  ,,hippias3 ,i shall  
have much pleasure1 ,socrates1 in       
explaining to you more clearly than ,i  
could in public my views about these and
 also about other heroes4 ,i say that   
,homer intended ,achilles to be the     
bravest of the men who went to ,troy1   
,nestor the wisest1 and ,odysseus the   
wiliest4  ,,socrates3 ,o rare ,hippias1 
will you be so good as not to laugh1 if 
,i find a difficulty in following you1  
and repeat my questions several times   
over8 ,please to answer me kindly and   
gently4  ,,hippias3 ,i should be greatly
 ashamed of myself1 ,socrates1 if ,i1   
who teach others and take money of them1
 could not1 when ,i was asked by you1   
answer in a civil and agreeable manner4 
,,socrates3 ,thank you3 the fact is1    
that ,i seemed to understand what you   
meant when you said that the poet       
intended ,achilles to be the bravest of 

men1 and also that he intended ,nestor  
to be the wisest2 but when you said that
 he meant ,odysseus to be the wiliest1  
,i must confess that ,i could not       
understand what you were saying4 ,will  
you tell me1 and then ,i shall perhaps  
understand you better2 has not ,homer   
made ,achilles wily8  ,,hippias3        
,certainly not1 ,socrates2 he is the    
most straight-forward of mankind1 and   
when ,homer introduces them talking with
 one another in the passage called the  
,prayers1 ,achilles is supposed by the  
poet to say to ,odysseus3--  ',son of   
,laertes1 sprung from heaven1 crafty    
,odysseus1 ,i will speak out plainly the
 word which ,i intend to carry out in   
act1 and which will1 ,i believe1 be     
accomplished4 ,for ,i hate him like the 
gates of death who thinks one thing and 
says another4 ,but ,i will speak that   
which shall be accomplished4'  ,now1 in 
these verses he clearly indicates the   
character of the two men2 he shows      
,achilles to be true and simple1 and    

,odysseus to be wily and false2 for he  
supposes ,achilles to be addressing     
,odysseus in these lines4  ,,socrates3  
,now1 ,hippias1 ,i think that ,i        
understand your meaning2 when you say   
that ,odysseus is wily1 you clearly mean
 that he is false8  ,,hippias3 ,exactly 
so1 ,socrates2 it is the character of   
,odysseus1 as he is represented by      
,homer in many passages both of the     
,iliad and ,odyssey4  ,,socrates3 ,and  
,homer must be presumed to have meant   
that the true man is not the same as the
 false8  ,,hippias3 ,of course1         
,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,and is that    
your own opinion1 ,hippias8  ,,hippias3 
,certainly2 how can ,i have any other8  
,,socrates3 ,well1 then1 as there is no 
possibility of asking ,homer what he    
meant in these verses of his1 let us    
leave him2 but as you show a willingness
 to take up his cause1 and your opinion 
agrees with what you declare to be his1 
will you answer on behalf of yourself   
and him8  ,,hippias3 ,i will2 ask       

shortly anything which you like4        
,,socrates3 ,do you say that the false1 
like the sick1 have no power to do      
things1 or that they have the power to  
do things8  ,,hippias3 ,i should say    
that they have power to do many things1 
and in particular to deceive mankind4   
,,socrates3 ,then1 according to you1    
they are both powerful and wily1 are    
they not8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3
 ,and are they wily1 and do they deceive
 by reason of their simplicity and      
folly1 or by reason of their cunning and
 a certain sort of prudence8  ,,hippias3
 ,by reason of their cunning and        
prudence1 most certainly4  ,,socrates3  
,then they are prudent1 ,i suppose8     
,,hippias3 ,so they are--very4          
,,socrates3 ,and if they are prudent1 do
 they know or do they not know what they
 do8  ,,hippias3 ,of course1 they know  
very well2 and that is why they do      
mischief to others4  ,,socrates3 ,and   
having this knowledge1 are they         
ignorant1 or are they wise8  ,,hippias3 

,wise1 certainly2 at least1 in so far as
 they can deceive4  ,,socrates3 ,stop1  
and let us recall to mind what you are  
saying2 are you not saying that the     
false are powerful and prudent and      
knowing and wise in those things about  
which they are false8  ,,hippias3 ,to be
 sure4  ,,socrates3 ,and the true differ
 from the false--the true and the false 
are the very opposite of each other8    
,,hippias3 ,that is my view4            
,,socrates3 ,then1 according to your    
view1 it would seem that the false are  
to be ranked in the class of the        
powerful and wise8  ,,hippias3          
,assuredly4  ,,socrates3 ,and when you  
say that the false are powerful and wise
 in so far as they are false1 do you    
mean that they have or have not the     
power of uttering their falsehoods if   
they like8  ,,hippias3 ,i mean to say   
that they have the power4  ,,socrates3  
,in a word1 then1 the false are they who
 are wise and have the power to speak   
falsely8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 

,then a man who has not the power of    
speaking falsely and is ignorant cannot 
be false8  ,,hippias3 ,you are right4   
,,socrates3 ,and every man has power who
 does that which he wishes at the time  
when he wishes4 ,i am not speaking of   
any special case in which he is         
prevented by disease or something of    
that sort1 but ,i am speaking generally1
 as ,i might say of you1 that you are   
able to write my name when you like4    
,would you not call a man able who could
 do that8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3
 ,and tell me1 ,hippias1 are you not a  
skilful calculator and arithmetician8   
,,hippias3 ,yes1 ,socrates1 assuredly ,i
 am4  ,,socrates3 ,and if some one were 
to ask you what is the sum of #c        
multiplied by #gjj1 you would tell him  
the true answer in a moment1 if you     
pleased8  ,,hippias3 certainly ,i       
should4  ,,socrates3 ,is not that       
because you are the wisest and ablest of
 men in these matters8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4
  ,,socrates3 ,and being as you are the 

wisest and ablest of men in these       
matters of calculation1 are you not also
 the best8  ,,hippias3 ,to be sure1     
,socrates1 ,i am the best4  ,,socrates3 
,and therefore you would be the most    
able to tell the truth about these      
matters1 would you not8  ,,hippias3     
,yes1 ,i should4  ,,socrates3 ,and could
 you speak falsehoods about them equally
 well8 ,i must beg1 ,hippias1 that you  
will answer me with the same frankness  
and magnanimity which has hitherto      
characterized you4 ,if a person were to 
ask you what is the sum of #c multiplied
 by #gjj1 would not you be the best and 
most consistent teller of a falsehood1  
having always the power of speaking     
falsely as you have of speaking truly1  
about these same matters1 if you wanted 
to tell a falsehood1 and not to answer  
truly8 ,would the ignorant man be better
 able to tell a falsehood in matters of 
calculation than you would be1 if you   
chose8 ,might he not sometimes stumble  
upon the truth1 when he wanted to tell a

 lie1 because he did not know1 whereas  
you who are the wise man1 if you wanted 
to tell a lie would always and          
consistently lie8  ,,hippias3 ,yes1     
there you are quite right4  ,,socrates3 
,does the false man tell lies about     
other things1 but not about number1 or  
when he is making a calculation8        
,,hippias3 ,to be sure2 he would tell as
 many lies about number as about other  
things4  ,,socrates3 ,then may we       
further assume1 ,hippias1 that there are
 men who are false about calculation and
 number8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 
,who can they be8 ,for you have already 
admitted that he who is false must have 
the ability to be false3 you said1 as   
you will remember1 that he who is unable
 to be false will not be false8         
,,hippias3 ,yes1 ,i remember2 it was so 
said4  ,,socrates3 ,and were you not    
yourself just now shown to be best able 
to speak falsely about calculation8     
,,hippias3 ,yes2 that was another thing 
which was said4  ,,socrates3 ,and are   

you not likewise said to speak truly    
about calculation8  ,,hippias3          
,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,then the same 
person is able to speak both falsely and
 truly about calculation8 ,and that     
person is he who is good at             
calculation--the arithmetician8         
,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,who1     
then1 ,hippias1 is discovered to be     
false at calculation8 ,is he not the    
good man8 ,for the good man is the able 
man1 and he is the true man4  ,,hippias3
 ,that is evident4  ,,socrates3 ,do you 
not see1 then1 that the same man is     
false and also true about the same      
matters8 ,and the true man is not a whit
 better than the false2 for indeed he is
 the same with him and not the very     
opposite1 as you were just now          
imagining4  ,,hippias3 ,not in that     
instance1 clearly4  ,,socrates3 ,shall  
we examine other instances8  ,,hippias3 
,certainly1 if you are disposed4        
,,socrates3 ,are you not also skilled in
 geometry8  ,,hippias3 ,i am4           

,,socrates3 ,well1 and does not the same
 hold in that science also8 ,is not the 
same person best able to speak falsely  
or to speak truly about diagrams2 and he
 is--the geometrician8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4
  ,,socrates3 ,he and no one else is    
good at it8  ,,hippias3 ,yes1 he and no 
one else4  ,,socrates3 ,then the good   
and wise geometer has this double power 
in the highest degree2 and if there be a
 man who is false about diagrams the    
good man will be he1 for he is able to  
be false2 whereas the bad is unable1 and
 for this reason is not false1 as has   
been admitted4  ,,hippias3 ,true4       
,,socrates3 ,once more--let us examine a
 third case2 that of the astronomer1 in 
whose art1 again1 you1 ,hippias1 profess
 to be a still greater proficient than  
in the preceding--do you not8           
,,hippias3 ,yes1 ,i am4  ,,socrates3    
,and does not the same hold of          
astronomy8  ,,hippias3 ,true1 ,socrates4
  ,,socrates3 ,and in astronomy1 too1 if
 any man be able to speak falsely he    

will be the good astronomer1 but he who 
is not able will not speak falsely1 for 
he has no knowledge4  ,,hippias3        
,clearly not4  ,,socrates3 ,then in     
astronomy also1 the same man will be    
true and false8  ,,hippias3 ,it would   
seem so4  ,,socrates3 ,and now1         
,hippias1 consider the question at large
 about all the sciences1 and see whether
 the same principle does not always     
hold4 ,i know that in most arts you are 
the wisest of men1 as ,i have heard you 
boasting in the agora at the tables of  
the money-changers1 when you were       
setting forth the great and enviable    
stores of your wisdom2 and you said that
 upon one occasion1 when you went to the
 ,olympic games1 all that you had on    
your person was made by yourself4 ,you  
began with your ring1 which was of your 
own workmanship1 and you said that you  
could engrave rings2 and you had another
 seal which was also of your own        
workmanship1 and a strigil and an oil   
flask1 which you had made yourself2 you 

said also that you had made the shoes   
which you had on your feet1 and the     
cloak and the short tunic2 but what     
appeared to us all most extraordinary   
and a proof of singular art1 was the    
girdle of your tunic1 which1 you said1  
was as fine as the most costly ,persian 
fabric1 and of your own weaving2        
moreover1 you told us that you had      
brought with you poems1 epic1 tragic1   
and dithyrambic1 as well as prose       
writings of the most various kinds2 and 
you said that your skill was also       
pre-eminent in the arts which ,i was    
just now mentioning1 and in the true    
principles of rhythm and harmony and of 
orthography2 and if ,i remember rightly1
 there were a great many other          
accomplishments in which you excelled4  
,i have forgotten to mention your art of
 memory1 which you regard as your       
special glory1 and ,i dare say that ,i  
have forgotten many other things2 but1  
as ,i was saying1 only look to your own 
arts--and there are plenty of them--and 

to those of others2 and tell me1 having 
regard to the admissions which you and  
,i have made1 whether you discover any  
department of art or any description of 
wisdom or cunning1 whichever name you   
use1 in which the true and false are    
different and not the same3 tell me1 if 
you can1 of any4 ,but you cannot4       
,,hippias3 ,not without consideration1  
,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,nor will       
consideration help you1 ,hippias1 as ,i 
believe2 but then if ,i am right1       
remember what the consequence will be4  
,,hippias3 ,i do not know what you mean1
 ,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,i suppose that
 you are not using your art of memory1  
doubtless because you think that such an
 accomplishment is not needed on the    
present occasion4 ,i will therefore     
remind you of what you were saying3 were
 you not saying that ,achilles was a    
true man1 and ,odysseus false and wily8 
,,hippias3 ,i was4  ,,socrates3 ,and now
 do you perceive that the same person   
has turned out to be false as well as   

true8 ,if ,odysseus is false he is also 
true1 and if ,achilles is true he is    
also false1 and so the two men are not  
opposed to one another1 but they are    
alike4  ,,hippias3 ,o ,socrates1 you are
 always weaving the meshes of an        
argument1 selecting the most difficult  
point1 and fastening upon details       
instead of grappling with the matter in 
hand as a whole4 ,come now1 and ,i will 
demonstrate to you1 if you will allow   
me1 by many satisfactory proofs1 that   
,homer has made ,achilles a better man  
than ,odysseus1 and a truthful man too2 
and that he has made the other crafty1  
and a teller of many untruths1 and      
inferior to ,achilles4 ,and then1 if you
 please1 you shall make a speech on the 
other side1 in order to prove that      
,odysseus is the better man2 and this   
may be compared to mine1 and then the   
company will know which of us is the    
better speaker4  ,,socrates3 ,o         
,hippias1 ,i do not doubt that you are  
wiser than ,i am4 ,but ,i have a way1   

when anybody else says anything1 of     
giving close attention to him1          
especially if the speaker appears to me 
to be a wise man4 ,having a desire to   
understand1 ,i question him1 and ,i     
examine and analyse and put together    
what he says1 in order that ,i may      
understand2 but if the speaker appears  
to me to be a poor hand1 ,i do not      
interrogate him1 or trouble myself about
 him1 and you may know by this who they 
are whom ,i deem to be wise men1 for you
 will see that when ,i am talking with a
 wise man1 ,i am very attentive to what 
he says2 and ,i ask questions of him1 in
 order that ,i may learn1 and be        
improved by him4 ,and ,i could not help 
remarking while you were speaking1 that 
when you recited the verses in which    
,achilles1 as you argued1 attacks       
,odysseus as a deceiver1 that you must  
be strangely mistaken1 because          
,odysseus1 the man of wiles1 is never   
found to tell a lie2 but ,achilles is   
found to be wily on your own showing4   

,at any rate he speaks falsely2 for     
first he utters these words1 which you  
just now repeated1--  ',he is hateful to
 me even as the gates of death who      
thinks one thing and says another3'--   
,and then he says1 a little while       
afterwards1 he will not be persuaded by 
,odysseus and ,agamemnon1 neither will  
he remain at ,troy2 but1 says he1--     
',to-morrow1 when ,i have offered       
sacrifices to ,zeus and all the ,gods1  
having loaded my ships well1 ,i will    
drag them down into the deep2 and then  
you shall see1 if you have a mind1 and  
if such things are a care to you1 early 
in the morning my ships sailing over the
 fishy ,hellespont1 and my men eagerly  
plying the oar2 and1 if the illustrious 
shaker of the earth gives me a good     
voyage1 on the third day ,i shall reach 
the fertile ,phthia4'  ,and before that1
 when he was reviling ,agamemnon1 he    
said1--  ',and now to ,phthia ,i will   
go1 since to return home in the beaked  
ships is far better1 nor am ,i inclined 

to stay here in dishonour and amass     
wealth and riches for you4'  ,but       
although on that occasion1 in the       
presence of the whole army1 he spoke    
after this fashion1 and on the other    
occasion to his companions1 he appears  
never to have made any preparation or   
attempt to draw down the ships1 as if he
 had the least intention of sailing     
home2 so nobly regardless was he of the 
truth4 ,now ,i1 ,hippias1 originally    
asked you the question1 because ,i was  
in doubt as to which of the two heroes  
was intended by the poet to be the best1
 and because ,i thought that both of    
them were the best1 and that it would be
 difficult to decide which was the      
better of them1 not only in respect of  
truth and falsehood1 but of virtue      
generally1 for even in this matter of   
speaking the truth they are much upon a 
par4  ,,hippias3 ,there you are wrong1  
,socrates2 for in so far as ,achilles   
speaks falsely1 the falsehood is        
obviously unintentional4 ,he is         

compelled against his will to remain and
 rescue the army in their misfortune4   
,but when ,odysseus speaks falsely he is
 voluntarily and intentionally false4   
,,socrates3 ,you1 sweet ,hippias1 like  
,odysseus1 are a deceiver yourself4     
,,hippias3 ,certainly not1 ,socrates2   
what makes you say so8  ,,socrates3     
,because you say that ,achilles does not
 speak falsely from design1 when he is  
not only a deceiver1 but besides being a
 braggart1 in ,homer's description of   
him is so cunning1 and so far superior  
to ,odysseus in lying and pretending1   
that he dares to contradict himself1 and
 ,odysseus does not find him out2 at any
 rate he does not appear to say anything
 to him which would imply that he       
perceived his falsehood4  ,,hippias3    
,what do you mean1 ,socrates8           
,,socrates3 ,did you not observe that   
afterwards1 when he is speaking to      
,odysseus1 he says that he will sail    
away with the early dawn2 but to ,ajax  
he tells quite a different story8       

,,hippias3 ,where is that8  ,,socrates3 
,where he says1--  ',i will not think   
about bloody war until the son of       
warlike ,priam1 illustrious ,hector1    
comes to the tents and ships of the     
,myrmidons1 slaughtering the ,argives1  
and burning the ships with fire2 and    
about my tent and dark ship1 ,i suspect 
that ,hector1 although eager for the    
battle1 will nevertheless stay his      
hand4'  ,now1 do you really think1      
,hippias1 that the son of ,thetis1 who  
had been the pupil of the sage ,cheiron1
 had such a bad memory1 or would have   
carried the art of lying to such an     
extent 7when he had been assailing liars
 in the most violent terms only the     
instant before7 as to say to ,odysseus  
that he would sail away1 and to ,ajax   
that he would remain1 and that he was   
not rather practising upon the          
simplicity of ,odysseus1 whom he        
regarded as an ancient1 and thinking    
that he would get the better of him by  
his own cunning and falsehood8          

,,hippias3 ,no1 ,i do not agree with    
you1 ,socrates2 but ,i believe that     
,achilles is induced to say one thing to
 ,ajax1 and another to ,odysseus in the 
innocence of his heart1 whereas         
,odysseus1 whether he speaks falsely or 
truly1 speaks always with a purpose4    
,,socrates3 ,then ,odysseus would appear
 after all to be better than ,achilles8 
,,hippias3 ,certainly not1 ,socrates4   
,,socrates3 ,why1 were not the voluntary
 liars only just now shown to be better 
than the involuntary8  ,,hippias3 ,and  
how1 ,socrates1 can those who           
intentionally err1 and voluntarily and  
designedly commit iniquities1 be better 
than those who err and do wrong         
involuntarily8 ,surely there is a great 
excuse to be made for a man telling a   
falsehood1 or doing an injury or any    
sort of harm to another in ignorance4   
,and the laws are obviously far more    
severe on those who lie or do evil1     
voluntarily1 than on those who do evil  
involuntarily4  ,,socrates3 ,you see1   

,hippias1 as ,i have already told you1  
how pertinacious ,i am in asking        
questions of wise men4 ,and ,i think    
that this is the only good point about  
me1 for ,i am full of defects1 and      
always getting wrong in some way or     
other4 ,my deficiency is proved to me by
 the fact that when ,i meet one of you  
who are famous for wisdom1 and to whose 
wisdom all the ,hellenes are witnesses1 
,i am found out to know nothing4 ,for   
speaking generally1 ,i hardly ever have 
the same opinion about anything which   
you have1 and what proof of ignorance   
can be greater than to differ from wise 
men8 ,but ,i have one singular good     
quality1 which is my salvation2 ,i am   
not ashamed to learn1 and ,i ask and    
enquire1 and am very grateful to those  
who answer me1 and never fail to give   
them my grateful thanks2 and when ,i    
learn a thing ,i never deny my teacher1 
or pretend that the lesson is a         
discovery of my own2 but ,i praise his  
wisdom1 and proclaim what ,i have       

learned from him4 ,and now ,i cannot    
agree in what you are saying1 but ,i    
strongly disagree4 ,well1 ,i know that  
this is my own fault1 and is a defect in
 my character1 but ,i will not pretend  
to be more than ,i am2 and my opinion1  
,hippias1 is the very contrary of what  
you are saying4 ,for ,i maintain that   
those who hurt or injure mankind1 and   
speak falsely and deceive1 and err      
voluntarily1 are better far than those  
who do wrong involuntarily4 ,sometimes1 
however1 ,i am of the opposite opinion2 
for ,i am all abroad in my ideas about  
this matter1 a condition obviously      
occasioned by ignorance4 ,and just now  
,i happen to be in a crisis of my       
disorder at which those who err         
voluntarily appear to me better than    
those who err involuntarily4 ,my present
 state of mind is due to our previous   
argument1 which inclines me to believe  
that in general those who do wrong      
involuntarily are worse than those who  
do wrong voluntarily1 and therefore ,i  

hope that you will be good to me1 and   
not refuse to heal me2 for you will do  
me a much greater benefit if you cure my
 soul of ignorance1 than you would if   
you were to cure my body of disease4 ,i 
must1 however1 tell you beforehand1 that
 if you make a long oration to me you   
will not cure me1 for ,i shall not be   
able to follow you2 but if you will     
answer me1 as you did just now1 you will
 do me a great deal of good1 and ,i do  
not think that you will be any the worse
 yourself4 ,and ,i have some claim upon 
you also1 ,o son of ,apemantus1 for you 
incited me to converse with ,hippias2   
and now1 if ,hippias will not answer me1
 you must entreat him on my behalf4     
,,eudicus3 ,but ,i do not think1        
,socrates1 that ,hippias will require   
any entreaty of mine2 for he has already
 said that he will refuse to answer no  
man4--,did you not say so1 ,hippias8    
,,hippias3 ,yes1 ,i did2 but then1      
,eudicus1 ,socrates is always           
troublesome in an argument1 and appears 

to be dishonest4 7,compare ,gorgias2    
,republic47  ,,socrates3 ,excellent     
,hippias1 ,i do not do so intentionally 
7if ,i did1 it would show me to be a    
wise man and a master of wiles1 as you  
would argue71 but unintentionally1 and  
therefore you must pardon me2 for1 as   
you say1 he who is unintentionally      
dishonest should be pardoned4           
,,eudicus3 ,yes1 ,hippias1 do as he     
says2 and for our sake1 and also that   
you may not belie your profession1      
answer whatever ,socrates asks you4     
,,hippias3 ,i will answer1 as you       
request me2 and do you ask whatever you 
like4  ,,socrates3 ,i am very desirous1 
,hippias1 of examining this question1 as
 to which are the better--those who err 
voluntarily or involuntarily8 ,and if   
you will answer me1 ,i think that ,i can
 put you in the way of approaching the  
subject3 ,you would admit1 would you    
not1 that there are good runners8       
,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,and there
 are bad runners8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4     

,,socrates3 ,and he who runs well is a  
good runner1 and he who runs ill is a   
bad runner8  ,,hippias3 ,very true4     
,,socrates3 ,and he who runs slowly runs
 ill1 and he who runs quickly runs well8
  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,then in
 a race1 and in running1 swiftness is a 
good1 and slowness is an evil quality8  
,,hippias3 ,to be sure4  ,,socrates3    
,which of the two then is a better      
runner8 ,he who runs slowly voluntarily1
 or he who runs slowly involuntarily8   
,,hippias3 ,he who runs slowly          
voluntarily4  ,,socrates3 ,and is not   
running a species of doing8  ,,hippias3 
,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and if a      
species of doing1 a species of action8  
,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,then he  
who runs badly does a bad and           
dishonourable action in a race8         
,,hippias3 ,yes2 a bad action1          
certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and he who runs
 slowly runs badly8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4   
,,socrates3 ,then the good runner does  
this bad and disgraceful action         

voluntarily1 and the bad involuntarily8 
,,hippias3 ,that is to be inferred4     
,,socrates3 ,then he who involuntarily  
does evil actions1 is worse in a race   
than he who does them voluntarily8      
,,hippias3 ,yes1 in a race4  ,,socrates3
 ,well1 but at a wrestling match--which 
is the better wrestler1 he who falls    
voluntarily or involuntarily8           
,,hippias3 ,he who falls voluntarily1   
doubtless4  ,,socrates3 ,and is it worse
 or more dishonourable at a wrestling   
match1 to fall1 or to throw another8    
,,hippias3 ,to fall4  ,,socrates3 ,then1
 at a wrestling match1 he who           
voluntarily does base and dishonourable 
actions is a better wrestler than he who
 does them involuntarily8  ,,hippias3   
,that appears to be the truth4          
,,socrates3 ,and what would you say of  
any other bodily exercise--is not he who
 is better made able to do both that    
which is strong and that which is       
weak--that which is fair and that which 
is foul8--so that when he does bad      

actions with the body1 he who is better 
made does them voluntarily1 and he who  
is worse made does them involuntarily4  
,,hippias3 ,yes1 that appears to be true
 about strength4  ,,socrates3 ,and what 
do you say about grace1 ,hippias8 ,is   
not he who is better made able to assume
 evil and disgraceful figures and       
postures voluntarily1 as he who is worse
 made assumes them involuntarily8       
,,hippias3 ,true4  ,,socrates3 ,then    
voluntary ungracefulness comes from     
excellence of the bodily frame1 and     
involuntary from the defect of the      
bodily frame8  ,,hippias3 ,true4        
,,socrates3 ,and what would you say of  
an unmusical voice2 would you prefer the
 voice which is voluntarily or          
involuntarily out of tune8  ,,hippias3  
,that which is voluntarily out of tune4 
,,socrates3 ,the involuntary is the     
worse of the two8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4     
,,socrates3 ,and would you choose to    
possess goods or evils8  ,,hippias3     
,goods4  ,,socrates3 ,and would you     

rather have feet which are voluntarily  
or involuntarily lame8  ,,hippias3 ,feet
 which are voluntarily lame4            
,,socrates3 ,but is not lameness a      
defect or deformity8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  
,,socrates3 ,and is not blinking a      
defect in the eyes8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4   
,,socrates3 ,and would you rather always
 have eyes with which you might         
voluntarily blink and not see1 or with  
which you might involuntarily blink8    
,,hippias3 ,i would rather have eyes    
which voluntarily blink4  ,,socrates3   
,then in your own case you deem that    
which voluntarily acts ill1 better than 
that which involuntarily acts ill8      
,,hippias3 ,yes1 certainly1 in cases    
such as you mention4  ,,socrates3 ,and  
does not the same hold of ears1         
nostrils1 mouth1 and of all the         
senses--those which involuntarily act   
ill are not to be desired1 as being     
defective2 and those which voluntarily  
act ill are to be desired as being good8
  ,,hippias3 ,i agree4  ,,socrates3 ,and

 what would you say of                  
instruments2--which are the better sort 
of instruments to have to do            
with8--those with which a man acts ill  
voluntarily or involuntarily8 ,for      
example1 had a man better have a rudder 
with which he will steer ill1           
voluntarily or involuntarily8           
,,hippias3 ,he had better have a rudder 
with which he will steer ill            
voluntarily4  ,,socrates3 ,and does not 
the same hold of the bow and the lyre1  
the flute and all other things8         
,,hippias3 ,very true4  ,,socrates3 ,and
 would you rather have a horse of such a
 temper that you may ride him ill       
voluntarily or involuntarily8           
,,hippias3 ,i would rather have a horse 
which ,i could ride ill voluntarily4    
,,socrates3 ,that would be the better   
horse8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3   
,then with a horse of better temper1    
vicious actions would be produced       
voluntarily2 and with a horse of bad    
temper involuntarily8  ,,hippias3       

,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and that would
 be true of a dog1 or of any other      
animal8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3  
,and is it better to possess the mind of
 an archer who voluntarily or           
involuntarily misses the mark8          
,,hippias3 ,of him who voluntarily      
misses4  ,,socrates3 ,this would be the 
better mind for the purposes of archery8
  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,then   
the mind which involuntarily errs is    
worse than the mind which errs          
voluntarily8  ,,hippias3 ,yes1          
certainly1 in the use of the bow4       
,,socrates3 ,and what would you say of  
the art of medicine2--has not the mind  
which voluntarily works harm to the     
body1 more of the healing art8          
,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,then in  
the art of medicine the voluntary is    
better than the involuntary8  ,,hippias3
 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,well1 and in       
lute-playing and in flute-playing1 and  
in all arts and sciences1 is not that   
mind the better which voluntarily does  

what is evil and dishonourable1 and goes
 wrong1 and is not the worse that which 
does so involuntarily8  ,,hippias3 ,that
 is evident4  ,,socrates3 ,and what     
would you say of the characters of      
slaves8 ,should we not prefer to have   
those who voluntarily do wrong and make 
mistakes1 and are they not better in    
their mistakes than those who commit    
them involuntarily8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4   
,,socrates3 ,and should we not desire to
 have our own minds in the best state   
possible8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3
 ,and will our minds be better if they  
do wrong and make mistakes voluntarily  
or involuntarily8  ,,hippias3 ,o1       
,socrates1 it would be a monstrous thing
 to say that those who do wrong         
voluntarily are better than those who do
 wrong involuntarily6  ,,socrates3 ,and 
yet that appears to be the only         
inference4  ,,hippias3 ,i do not think  
so4  ,,socrates3 ,but ,i imagined1      
,hippias1 that you did4 ,please to      
answer once more3 ,is not justice a     

power1 or knowledge1 or both8 ,must not 
justice1 at all events1 be one of these8
  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,but if 
justice is a power of the soul1 then the
 soul which has the greater power is    
also the more just2 for that which has  
the greater power1 my good friend1 has  
been proved by us to be the better4     
,,hippias3 ,yes1 that has been proved4  
,,socrates3 ,and if justice is          
knowledge1 then the wiser will be the   
juster soul1 and the more ignorant the  
more unjust8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4          
,,socrates3 ,but if justice be power as 
well as knowledge--then will not the    
soul which has both knowledge and power 
be the more just1 and that which is the 
more ignorant be the more unjust8 ,must 
it not be so8  ,,hippias3 ,clearly4     
,,socrates3 ,and is not the soul which  
has the greater power and wisdom also   
better1 and better able to do both good 
and evil in every action8  ,,hippias3   
,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,the soul1     
then1 which acts ill1 acts voluntarily  

by power and art--and these either one  
or both of them are elements of justice8
  ,,hippias3 ,that seems to be true4    
,,socrates3 ,and to do injustice is to  
do ill1 and not to do injustice is to do
 well8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3   
,and will not the better and abler soul 
when it does wrong1 do wrong            
voluntarily1 and the bad soul           
involuntarily8  ,,hippias3 ,clearly4    
,,socrates3 ,and the good man is he who 
has the good soul1 and the bad man is he
 who has the bad8  ,,hippias3 ,yes4     
,,socrates3 ,then the good man will     
voluntarily do wrong1 and the bad man   
involuntarily1 if the good man is he who
 has the good soul8  ,,hippias3 ,which  
he certainly has4  ,,socrates3 ,then1   
,hippias1 he who voluntarily does wrong 
and disgraceful things1 if there be such
 a man1 will be the good man8           
,,hippias3 ,there ,i cannot agree with  
you4  ,,socrates3 ,nor can ,i agree with
 myself1 ,hippias2 and yet that seems to
 be the conclusion which1 as far as we  

can see at present1 must follow from our
 argument4 ,as ,i was saying before1 ,i 
am all abroad1 and being in perplexity  
am always changing my opinion4 ,now1    
that ,i or any ordinary man should      
wander in perplexity is not surprising2 
but if you wise men also wander1 and we 
cannot come to you and rest from our    
wandering1 the matter begins to be      
serious both to us and to you4