,,laches  ,,or ,,courage  ,by ,plato    
,translated by ,benjamin ,jowett        
,,introduction4  ,lysimachus1 the son of
 ,aristides the ,just1 and ,melesias1   
the son of the elder ,thucydides1 two   
aged men who live together1 are desirous
 of educating their sons in the best    
manner4 ,their own education1 as often  
happens with the sons of great men1 has 
been neglected2 and they are resolved   
that their children shall have more care
 taken of them1 than they received      
themselves at the hands of their        
fathers4  ,at their request1 ,nicias and
 ,laches have accompanied them to see a 
man named ,stesilaus fighting in heavy  
armour4 ,the two fathers ask the two    
generals what they think of this        
exhibition1 and whether they would      
advise that their sons should acquire   
the accomplishment4 ,nicias and ,laches 
are quite willing to give their opinion2
 but they suggest that ,socrates should 
be invited to take part in the          
consultation4 ,he is a stranger to      

,lysimachus1 but is afterwards          
recognised as the son of his old friend 
,sophroniscus1 with whom he never had a 
difference to the hour of his death4    
,socrates is also known to ,nicias1 to  
whom he had introduced the excellent    
,damon1 musician and sophist1 as a tutor
 for his son1 and to ,laches1 who had   
witnessed his heroic behaviour at the   
battle of ,delium 7compare ,symp474     
,socrates1 as he is younger than either 
,nicias or ,laches1 prefers to wait     
until they have delivered their         
opinions1 which they give in a          
characteristic manner4 ,nicias1 the     
tactician1 is very much in favour of the
 new art1 which he describes as the     
gymnastics of war--useful when the ranks
 are formed1 and still more useful when 
they are broken2 creating a general     
interest in military studies1 and       
greatly adding to the appearance of the 
soldier in the field4 ,laches1 the blunt
 warrior1 is of opinion that such an art
 is not knowledge1 and cannot be of any 

value1 because the ,lacedaemonians1     
those great masters of arms1 neglect it4
 ,his own experience in actual service  
has taught him that these pretenders are
 useless and ridiculous4 ,this man      
,stesilaus has been seen by him on board
 ship making a very sorry exhibition of 
himself4 ,the possession of the art will
 make the coward rash1 and subject the  
courageous1 if he chance to make a slip1
 to invidious remarks4 ,and now let     
,socrates be taken into counsel4 ,as    
they differ he must decide4  ,socrates  
would rather not decide the question by 
a plurality of votes3 in such a serious 
matter as the education of a friend's   
children1 he would consult the one      
skilled person who has had masters1 and 
has works to show as evidences of his   
skill4 ,this is not himself2 for he has 
never been able to pay the sophists for 
instructing him1 and has never had the  
wit to do or discover anything4 ,but    
,nicias and ,laches are older and richer
 than he is3 they have had teachers1 and

 perhaps have made discoveries2 and he  
would have trusted them entirely1 if    
they had not been diametrically opposed4
  ,lysimachus here proposes to resign   
the argument into the hands of the      
younger part of the company1 as he is   
old1 and has a bad memory4 ,he earnestly
 requests ,socrates to remain2--in this 
showing1 as ,nicias says1 how little he 
knows the man1 who will certainly not go
 away until he has cross-examined the   
company about their past lives4 ,nicias 
has often submitted to this process2 and
 ,laches is quite willing to learn from 
,socrates1 because his actions1 in the  
true ,dorian mode1 correspond to his    
words4  ,socrates proceeds3 ,we might   
ask who are our teachers8 ,but a better 
and more thorough way of examining the  
question will be to ask1 ',what is      
,virtue8'--or rather1 to restrict the   
enquiry to that part of virtue which is 
concerned with the use of               
weapons--',what is ,courage8' ,laches   
thinks that he knows this3 7#a7 ',he is 

courageous who remains at his post4'    
,but some nations fight flying1 after   
the manner of ,aeneas in ,homer2 or as  
the heavy-armed ,spartans also did at   
the battle of ,plataea4 7#b7 ,socrates  
wants a more general definition1 not    
only of military courage1 but of courage
 of all sorts1 tried both amid pleasures
 and pains4 ,laches replies that this   
universal courage is endurance4 ,but    
courage is a good thing1 and mere       
endurance may be hurtful and injurious4 
,therefore 7#c7 the element of          
intelligence must be added4 ,but then   
again unintelligent endurance may often 
be more courageous than the intelligent1
 the bad than the good4 ,how is this    
contradiction to be solved8 ,socrates   
and ,laches are not set 'to the ,dorian 
mode' of words and actions2 for their   
words are all confusion1 although their 
actions are courageous4 ,still they must
 'endure' in an argument about          
endurance4 ,laches is very willing1 and 
is quite sure that he knows what courage

 is1 if he could only tell4  ,nicias is 
now appealed to2 and in reply he offers 
a definition which he has heard from    
,socrates himself1 to the effect that   
7#a7 ',courage is intelligence4' ,laches
 derides this2 and ,socrates enquires1  
',what sort of intelligence8' to which  
,nicias replies1 ',intelligence of      
things terrible4' ',but every man knows 
the things to be dreaded in his own     
art4' ',no they do not4 ,they may       
predict results1 but cannot tell whether
 they are really terrible2 only the     
courageous man can tell that4' ,laches  
draws the inference that the courageous 
man is either a soothsayer or a god4    
,again1 7#b7 in ,nicias' way of         
speaking1 the term 'courageous' must be 
denied to animals or children1 because  
they do not know the danger4 ,against   
this inversion of the ordinary use of   
language ,laches reclaims1 but is in    
some degree mollified by a compliment to
 his own courage4 ,still1 he does not   
like to see an ,athenian statesman and  

general descending to sophistries of    
this sort4 ,socrates resumes the        
argument4 ,courage has been defined to  
be intelligence or knowledge of the     
terrible2 and courage is not all virtue1
 but only one of the virtues4 ,the      
terrible is in the future1 and therefore
 the knowledge of the terrible is a     
knowledge of the future4 ,but there can 
be no knowledge of future good or evil  
separated from a knowledge of the good  
and evil of the past or present2 that is
 to say1 of all good and evil4 ,courage1
 therefore1 is the knowledge of good and
 evil generally4 ,but he who has the    
knowledge of good and evil generally1   
must not only have courage1 but also    
temperance1 justice1 and every other    
virtue4 ,thus1 a single virtue would be 
the same as all virtues 7compare        
,protagoras74 ,and after all the two    
generals1 and ,socrates1 the hero of    
,delium1 are still in ignorance of the  
nature of courage4 ,they must go to     
school again1 boys1 old men and all4    

,some points of resemblance1 and some   
points of difference1 appear in the     
,laches when compared with the          
,charmides and ,lysis4 ,there is less of
 poetical and simple beauty1 and more of
 dramatic interest and power4 ,they are 
richer in the externals of the scene2   
the ,laches has more play and           
development of character4 ,in the ,lysis
 and ,charmides the youths are the      
central figures1 and frequent allusions 
are made to the place of meeting1 which 
is a palaestra4 ,here the place of      
meeting1 which is also a palaestra1 is  
quite forgotten1 and the boys play a    
subordinate part4 ,the seance is of old 
and elder men1 of whom ,socrates is the 
youngest4  ,first is the aged           
,lysimachus1 who may be compared with   
,cephalus in the ,republic1 and1 like   
him1 withdraws from the argument4       
,melesias1 who is only his shadow1 also 
subsides into silence4 ,both of them1 by
 their own confession1 have been        
ill-educated1 as is further shown by the

 circumstance that ,lysimachus1 the     
friend of ,sophroniscus1 has never heard
 of the fame of ,socrates1 his son2 they
 belong to different circles4 ,in the   
,meno their want of education in all but
 the arts of riding and wrestling is    
adduced as a proof that virtue cannot be
 taught4 ,the recognition of ,socrates  
by ,lysimachus is extremely graceful2   
and his military exploits naturally     
connect him with the two generals1 of   
whom one has witnessed them4 ,the       
characters of ,nicias and ,laches are   
indicated by their opinions on the      
exhibition of the man fighting in heavy 
armour4 ,the more enlightened ,nicias is
 quite ready to accept the new art1     
which ,laches treats with ridicule1     
seeming to think that this1 or any other
 military question1 may be settled by   
asking1 ',what do the ,lacedaemonians   
say8' ,the one is the thoughtful        
general1 willing to avail himself of any
 discovery in the art of war 7,aristoph4
 ,aves72 the other is the practical man1

 who relies on his own experience1 and  
is the enemy of innovation2 he can act  
but cannot speak1 and is apt to lose his
 temper4 ,it is to be noted that one of 
them is supposed to be a hearer of      
,socrates2 the other is only acquainted 
with his actions4 ,laches is the admirer
 of the ,dorian mode2 and into his mouth
 the remark is put that there are some  
persons who1 having never been taught1  
are better than those who have4 ,like a 
novice in the art of disputation1 he is 
delighted with the hits of ,socrates2   
and is disposed to be angry with the    
refinements of ,nicias4  ,in the        
discussion of the main thesis of the    
,dialogue--',what is ,courage8' the     
antagonism of the two characters is     
still more clearly brought out2 and in  
this1 as in the preliminary question1   
the truth is parted between them4       
,gradually1 and not without difficulty1 
,laches is made to pass on from the more
 popular to the more philosophical2 it  
has never occurred to him that there was

 any other courage than that of the     
soldier2 and only by an effort of the   
mind can he frame a general notion at   
all4 ,no sooner has this general notion 
been formed than it evanesces before the
 dialectic of ,socrates2 and ,nicias    
appears from the other side with the    
,socratic doctrine1 that courage is     
knowledge4 ,this is explained to mean   
knowledge of things terrible in the     
future4 ,but ,socrates denies that the  
knowledge of the future is separable    
from that of the past and present2 in   
other words1 true knowledge is not that 
of the soothsayer but of the            
philosopher4 ,and all knowledge will    
thus be equivalent to all virtue--a     
position which elsewhere ,socrates is   
not unwilling to admit1 but which will  
not assist us in distinguishing the     
nature of courage4 ,in this part of the 
,dialogue the contrast between the mode 
of cross-examination which is practised 
by ,laches and by ,socrates1 and also   
the manner in which the definition of   

,laches is made to approximate to that  
of ,nicias1 are worthy of attention4    
,thus1 with some intimation of the      
connexion and unity of virtue and       
knowledge1 we arrive at no distinct     
result4 ,the two aspects of courage are 
never harmonized4 ,the knowledge which  
in the ,protagoras is explained as the  
faculty of estimating pleasures and     
pains is here lost in an unmeaning and  
transcendental conception4 ,yet several 
true intimations of the nature of       
courage are allowed to appear3 7#a7     
,that courage is moral as well as       
physical3 7#b7 ,that true courage is    
inseparable from knowledge1 and yet 7#c7
 is based on a natural instinct4 ,laches
 exhibits one aspect of courage2 ,nicias
 the other4 ,the perfect image and      
harmony of both is only realized in     
,socrates himself4  ,the ,dialogue      
offers one among many examples of the   
freedom with which ,plato treats facts4 
,for the scene must be supposed to have 
occurred between ,b4,c4 #dbd1 the year  

of the battle of ,delium1 and ,b4,c4    
#dah1 the year of the battle of         
,mantinea1 at which ,laches fell4 ,but  
if ,socrates was more than seventy years
 of age at his trial in #cii 7see       
,apology71 he could not have been a     
young man at any time after the battle  
of ,delium4     ,,laches1 ,,or          
,,courage4     ,,persons ,,of ,,the     
,,dialogue3       ,lysimachus1 son of   
,aristides4      ,melesias1 son of      
,thucydides4      ,their sons4          
,nicias1 ,laches1 ,socrates4            
,,lysimachus3 ,you have seen the        
exhibition of the man fighting in       
armour1 ,nicias and ,laches1 but we did 
not tell you at the time the reason why 
my friend ,melesias and ,i asked you to 
go with us and see him4 ,i think that we
 may as well confess what this was1 for 
we certainly ought not to have any      
reserve with you4 ,the reason was1 that 
we were intending to ask your advice4   
,some laugh at the very notion of       
advising others1 and when they are asked

 will not say what they think4 ,they    
guess at the wishes of the person who   
asks them1 and answer according to his1 
and not according to their own1 opinion4
 ,but as we know that you are good      
judges1 and will say exactly what you   
think1 we have taken you into our       
counsels4 ,the matter about which ,i am 
making all this preface is as follows3  
,melesias and ,i have two sons2 that is 
his son1 and he is named ,thucydides1   
after his grandfather2 and this is mine1
 who is also called after his           
grandfather1 ,aristides4 ,now1 we are   
resolved to take the greatest care of   
the youths1 and not to let them run     
about as they like1 which is too often  
the way with the young1 when they are no
 longer children1 but to begin at once  
and do the utmost that we can for them4 
,and knowing you to have sons of your   
own1 we thought that you were most      
likely to have attended to their        
training and improvement1 and1 if       
perchance you have not attended to them1

 we may remind you that you ought to    
have done so1 and would invite you to   
assist us in the fulfilment of a common 
duty4 ,i will tell you1 ,nicias and     
,laches1 even at the risk of being      
tedious1 how we came to think of this4  
,melesias and ,i live together1 and our 
sons live with us2 and now1 as ,i was   
saying at first1 we are going to confess
 to you4 ,both of us often talk to the  
lads about the many noble deeds which   
our own fathers did in war and peace--in
 the management of the allies1 and in   
the administration of the city2 but     
neither of us has any deeds of his own  
which he can show4 ,the truth is that we
 are ashamed of this contrast being seen
 by them1 and we blame our fathers for  
letting us be spoiled in the days of our
 youth1 while they were occupied with   
the concerns of others2 and we urge all 
this upon the lads1 pointing out to them
 that they will not grow up to honour if
 they are rebellious and take no pains  
about themselves2 but that if they take 

pains they may1 perhaps1 become worthy  
of the names which they bear4 ,they1 on 
their part1 promise to comply with our  
wishes2 and our care is to discover what
 studies or pursuits are likely to be   
most improving to them4 ,some one       
commended to us the art of fighting in  
armour1 which he thought an excellent   
accomplishment for a young man to learn2
 and he praised the man whose exhibition
 you have seen1 and told us to go and   
see him4 ,and we determined that we     
would go1 and get you to accompany us2  
and we were intending at the same time1 
if you did not object1 to take counsel  
with you about the education of our     
sons4 ,that is the matter which we      
wanted to talk over with you2 and we    
hope that you will give us your opinion 
about this art of fighting in armour1   
and about any other studies or pursuits 
which may or may not be desirable for a 
young man to learn4 ,please to say      
whether you agree to our proposal4      
,,nicias3 ,as far as ,i am concerned1   

,lysimachus and ,melesias1 ,i applaud   
your purpose1 and will gladly assist    
you2 and ,i believe that you1 ,laches1  
will be equally glad4  ,,laches3        
,certainly1 ,nicias2 and ,i quite       
approve of the remark which ,lysimachus 
made about his own father and the father
 of ,melesias1 and which is applicable1 
not only to them1 but to us1 and to     
every one who is occupied with public   
affairs4 ,as he says1 such persons are  
too apt to be negligent and careless of 
their own children and their private    
concerns4 ,there is much truth in that  
remark of yours1 ,lysimachus4 ,but why1 
instead of consulting us1 do you not    
consult our friend ,socrates about the  
education of the youths8 ,he is of the  
same deme with you1 and is always       
passing his time in places where the    
youth have any noble study or pursuit1  
such as you are enquiring after4        
,,lysimachus3 ,why1 ,laches1 has        
,socrates ever attended to matters of   
this sort8  ,,laches3 ,certainly1       

,lysimachus4  ,,nicias3 ,that ,i have   
the means of knowing as well as ,laches2
 for quite lately he supplied me with a 
teacher of music for my sons1--,damon1  
the disciple of ,agathocles1 who is a   
most accomplished man in every way1 as  
well as a musician1 and a companion of  
inestimable value for young men at their
 age4  ,,lysimachus3 ,those who have    
reached my time of life1 ,socrates and  
,nicias and ,laches1 fall out of        
acquaintance with the young1 because    
they are generally detained at home by  
old age2 but you1 ,o son of             
,sophroniscus1 should let your fellow   
demesman have the benefit of any advice 
which you are able to give4 ,moreover ,i
 have a claim upon you as an old friend 
of your father2 for ,i and he were      
always companions and friends1 and to   
the hour of his death there never was a 
difference between us2 and now it comes 
back to me1 at the mention of your name1
 that ,i have heard these lads talking  
to one another at home1 and often       

speaking of ,socrates in terms of the   
highest praise2 but ,i have never       
thought to ask them whether the son of  
,sophroniscus was the person whom they  
meant4 ,tell me1 my boys1 whether this  
is the ,socrates of whom you have often 
spoken8  ,,son3 ,certainly1 father1 this
 is he4  ,,lysimachus3 ,i am delighted  
to hear1 ,socrates1 that you maintain   
the name of your father1 who was a most 
excellent man2 and ,i further rejoice at
 the prospect of our family ties being  
renewed4  ,,laches3 ,indeed1            
,lysimachus1 you ought not to give him  
up2 for ,i can assure you that ,i have  
seen him maintaining1 not only his      
father's1 but also his country's name4  
,he was my companion in the retreat from
 ,delium1 and ,i can tell you that if   
others had only been like him1 the      
honour of our country would have been   
upheld1 and the great defeat would never
 have occurred4  ,,lysimachus3 ,that is 
very high praise which is accorded to   
you1 ,socrates1 by faithful witnesses   

and for actions like those which they   
praise4 ,let me tell you the pleasure   
which ,i feel in hearing of your fame2  
and ,i hope that you will regard me as  
one of your warmest friends4 ,you ought 
to have visited us long ago1 and made   
yourself at home with us2 but now1 from 
this day forward1 as we have at last    
found one another out1 do as ,i         
say--come and make acquaintance with me1
 and with these young men1 that ,i may  
continue your friend1 as ,i was your    
father's4 ,i shall expect you to do so1 
and shall venture at some future time to
 remind you of your duty4 ,but what say 
you of the matter of which we were      
beginning to speak--the art of fighting 
in armour8 ,is that a practice in which 
the lads may be advantageously          
instructed8  ,,socrates3 ,i will        
endeavour to advise you1 ,lysimachus1 as
 far as ,i can in this matter1 and also 
in every way will comply with your      
wishes2 but as ,i am younger and not so 
experienced1 ,i think that ,i ought     

certainly to hear first what my elders  
have to say1 and to learn of them1 and  
if ,i have anything to add1 then ,i may 
venture to give my opinion to them as   
well as to you4 ,suppose1 ,nicias1 that 
one or other of you begin4  ,,nicias3 ,i
 have no objection1 ,socrates2 and my   
opinion is that the acquirement of this 
art is in many ways useful to young men4
 ,it is an advantage to them that among 
the favourite amusements of their       
leisure hours they should have one which
 tends to improve and not to injure     
their bodily health4 ,no gymnastics     
could be better or harder exercise2 and 
this1 and the art of riding1 are of all 
arts most befitting to a freeman2 for   
they only who are thus trained in the   
use of arms are the athletes of our     
military profession1 trained in that on 
which the conflict turns4 ,moreover in  
actual battle1 when you have to fight in
 a line with a number of others1 such an
 acquirement will be of some use1 and   
will be of the greatest whenever the    

ranks are broken and you have to fight  
singly1 either in pursuit1 when you are 
attacking some one who is defending     
himself1 or in flight1 when you have to 
defend yourself against an assailant4   
,certainly he who possessed the art     
could not meet with any harm at the     
hands of a single person1 or perhaps of 
several2 and in any case he would have a
 great advantage4 ,further1 this sort of
 skill inclines a man to the love of    
other noble lessons2 for every man who  
has learned how to fight in armour will 
desire to learn the proper arrangement  
of an army1 which is the sequel of the  
lesson3 and when he has learned this1   
and his ambition is once fired1 he will 
go on to learn the complete art of the  
general4 ,there is no difficulty in     
seeing that the knowledge and practice  
of other military arts will be          
honourable and valuable to a man2 and   
this lesson may be the beginning of     
them4 ,let me add a further advantage1  
which is by no means a slight one1--that

 this science will make any man a great 
deal more valiant and self-possessed in 
the field4 ,and ,i will not disdain to  
mention1 what by some may be thought to 
be a small matter2--he will make a      
better appearance at the right time2    
that is to say1 at the time when his    
appearance will strike terror into his  
enemies4 ,my opinion then1 ,lysimachus1 
is1 as ,i say1 that the youths should be
 instructed in this art1 and for the    
reasons which ,i have given4 ,but       
,laches may take a different view2 and  
,i shall be very glad to hear what he   
has to say4  ,,laches3 ,i should not    
like to maintain1 ,nicias1 that any kind
 of knowledge is not to be learned2 for 
all knowledge appears to be a good3 and 
if1 as ,nicias and as the teachers of   
the art affirm1 this use of arms is     
really a species of knowledge1 then it  
ought to be learned2 but if not1 and if 
those who profess to teach it are       
deceivers only2 or if it be knowledge1  
but not of a valuable sort1 then what is

 the use of learning it8 ,i say this1   
because ,i think that if it had been    
really valuable1 the ,lacedaemonians1   
whose whole life is passed in finding   
out and practising the arts which give  
them an advantage over other nations in 
war1 would have discovered this one4    
,and even if they had not1 still these  
professors of the art would certainly   
not have failed to discover that of all 
the ,hellenes the ,lacedaemonians have  
the greatest interest in such matters1  
and that a master of the art who was    
honoured among them would be sure to    
make his fortune among other nations1   
just as a tragic poet would who is      
honoured among ourselves2 which is the  
reason why he who fancies that he can   
write a tragedy does not go about       
itinerating in the neighbouring states1 
but rushes hither straight1 and exhibits
 at ,athens2 and this is natural4       
,whereas ,i perceive that these fighters
 in armour regard ,lacedaemon as a      
sacred inviolable territory1 which they 

do not touch with the point of their    
foot2 but they make a circuit of the    
neighbouring states1 and would rather   
exhibit to any others than to the       
,spartans2 and particularly to those who
 would themselves acknowledge that they 
are by no means first-rate in the arts  
of war4 ,further1 ,lysimachus1 ,i have  
encountered a good many of these        
gentlemen in actual service1 and have   
taken their measure1 which ,i can give  
you at once2 for none of these masters  
of fence have ever been distinguished in
 war1--there has been a sort of fatality
 about them2 while in all other arts the
 men of note have been always those who 
have practised the art1 they appear to  
be a most unfortunate exception4 ,for   
example1 this very ,stesilaus1 whom you 
and ,i have just witnessed exhibiting in
 all that crowd and making such great   
professions of his powers1 ,i have seen 
at another time making1 in sober truth1 
an involuntary exhibition of himself1   
which was a far better spectacle4 ,he   

was a marine on board a ship which      
struck a transport vessel1 and was armed
 with a weapon1 half spear1 half scythe2
 the singularity of this weapon was     
worthy of the singularity of the man4   
,to make a long story short1 ,i will    
only tell you what happened to this     
notable invention of the scythe spear4  
,he was fighting1 and the scythe was    
caught in the rigging of the other ship1
 and stuck fast2 and he tugged1 but was 
unable to get his weapon free4 ,the two 
ships were passing one another4 ,he     
first ran along his own ship holding on 
to the spear2 but as the other ship     
passed by and drew him after as he was  
holding on1 he let the spear slip       
through his hand until he retained only 
the end of the handle4 ,the people in   
the transport clapped their hands1 and  
laughed at his ridiculous figure2 and   
when some one threw a stone1 which fell 
on the deck at his feet1 and he quitted 
his hold of the scythe-spear1 the crew  
of his own trireme also burst out       

laughing2 they could not refrain when   
they beheld the weapon waving in the    
air1 suspended from the transport4 ,now 
,i do not deny that there may be        
something in such an art1 as ,nicias    
asserts1 but ,i tell you my experience2 
and1 as ,i said at first1 whether this  
be an art of which the advantage is so  
slight1 or not an art at all1 but only  
an imposition1 in either case such an   
acquirement is not worth having4 ,for my
 opinion is1 that if the professor of   
this art be a coward1 he will be likely 
to become rash1 and his character will  
be only more notorious2 or if he be     
brave1 and fail ever so little1 other   
men will be on the watch1 and he will be
 greatly traduced2 for there is a       
jealousy of such pretenders2 and unless 
a man be pre-eminent in valour1 he      
cannot help being ridiculous1 if he says
 that he has this sort of skill4 ,such  
is my judgment1 ,lysimachus1 of the     
desirableness of this art2 but1 as ,i   
said at first1 ask ,socrates1 and do not

 let him go until he has given you his  
opinion of the matter4  ,,lysimachus3 ,i
 am going to ask this favour of you1    
,socrates2 as is the more necessary     
because the two councillors disagree1   
and some one is in a manner still needed
 who will decide between them4 ,had they
 agreed1 no arbiter would have been     
required4 ,but as ,laches has voted one 
way and ,nicias another1 ,i should like 
to hear with which of our two friends   
you agree4  ,,socrates3 ,what1          
,lysimachus1 are you going to accept the
 opinion of the majority8  ,,lysimachus3
 ,why1 yes1 ,socrates2 what else am ,i  
to do8  ,,socrates3 ,and would you do so
 too1 ,melesias8 ,if you were           
deliberating about the gymnastic        
training of your son1 would you follow  
the advice of the majority of us1 or the
 opinion of the one who had been trained
 and exercised under a skilful master8  
,,melesias3 ,the latter1 ,socrates2 as  
would surely be reasonable4  ,,socrates3
 ,his one vote would be worth more than 

the vote of all us four8  ,,melesias3   
,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and for this  
reason1 as ,i imagine1--because a good  
decision is based on knowledge and not  
on numbers8  ,,melesias3 ,to be sure4   
,,socrates3 ,must we not then first of  
all ask1 whether there is any one of us 
who has knowledge of that about which we
 are deliberating8 ,if there is1 let us 
take his advice1 though he be one only1 
and not mind the rest2 if there is not1 
let us seek further counsel4 ,is this a 
slight matter about which you and       
,lysimachus are deliberating8 ,are you  
not risking the greatest of your        
possessions8 ,for children are your     
riches2 and upon their turning out well 
or ill depends the whole order of their 
father's house4  ,,melesias3 ,that is   
true4  ,,socrates3 ,great care1 then1 is
 required in this matter8  ,,melesias3  
,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,suppose1 as ,i
 was just now saying1 that we were      
considering1 or wanting to consider1 who
 was the best trainer4 ,should we not   

select him who knew and had practised   
the art1 and had the best teachers8     
,,melesias3 ,i think that we should4    
,,socrates3 ,but would there not arise a
 prior question about the nature of the 
art of which we want to find the        
masters8  ,,melesias3 ,i do not         
understand4  ,,socrates3 ,let me try to 
make my meaning plainer then4 ,i do not 
think that we have as yet decided what  
that is about which we are consulting1  
when we ask which of us is or is not    
skilled in the art1 and has or has not  
had a teacher of the art4  ,,nicias3    
,why1 ,socrates1 is not the question    
whether young men ought or ought not to 
learn the art of fighting in armour8    
,,socrates3 ,yes1 ,nicias2 but there is 
also a prior question1 which ,i may     
illustrate in this way3 ,when a person  
considers about applying a medicine to  
the eyes1 would you say that he is      
consulting about the medicine or about  
the eyes8  ,,nicias3 ,about the eyes4   
,,socrates3 ,and when he considers      

whether he shall set a bridle on a horse
 and at what time1 he is thinking of the
 horse and not of the bridle8  ,,nicias3
 ,true4  ,,socrates3 ,and in a word1    
when he considers anything for the sake 
of another thing1 he thinks of the end  
and not of the means8  ,,nicias3        
,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and when you  
call in an adviser1 you should see      
whether he too is skilful in the        
accomplishment of the end which you have
 in view8  ,,nicias3 ,most true4        
,,socrates3 ,and at present we have in  
view some knowledge1 of which the end is
 the soul of youth8  ,,nicias3 ,yes4    
,,socrates3 ,and we are enquiring1      
,which of us is skilful or successful in
 the treatment of the soul1 and which of
 us has had good teachers8  ,,laches3   
,well but1 ,socrates2 did you never     
observe that some persons1 who have had 
no teachers1 are more skilful than those
 who have1 in some things8  ,,socrates3 
,yes1 ,laches1 ,i have observed that2   
but you would not be very willing to    

trust them if they only professed to be 
masters of their art1 unless they could 
show some proof of their skill or       
excellence in one or more works4        
,,laches3 ,that is true4  ,,socrates3   
,and therefore1 ,laches and ,nicias1 as 
,lysimachus and ,melesias1 in their     
anxiety to improve the minds of their   
sons1 have asked our advice about them1 
we too should tell them who our teachers
 were1 if we say that we have had any1  
and prove them to be in the first place 
men of merit and experienced trainers of
 the minds of youth and also to have    
been really our teachers4 ,or if any of 
us says that he has no teacher1 but that
 he has works of his own to show2 then  
he should point out to them what        
,athenians or strangers1 bond or free1  
he is generally acknowledged to have    
improved4 ,but if he can show neither   
teachers nor works1 then he should tell 
them to look out for others2 and not run
 the risk of spoiling the children of   
friends1 and thereby incurring the most 

formidable accusation which can be      
brought against any one by those nearest
 to him4 ,as for myself1 ,lysimachus and
 ,melesias1 ,i am the first to confess  
that ,i have never had a teacher of the 
art of virtue2 although ,i have always  
from my earliest youth desired to have  
one4 ,but ,i am too poor to give money  
to the ,sophists1 who are the only      
professors of moral improvement2 and to 
this day ,i have never been able to     
discover the art myself1 though ,i      
should not be surprised if ,nicias or   
,laches may have discovered or learned  
it2 for they are far wealthier than ,i  
am1 and may therefore have learnt of    
others4 ,and they are older too2 so that
 they have had more time to make the    
discovery4 ,and ,i really believe that  
they are able to educate a man2 for     
unless they had been confident in their 
own knowledge1 they would never have    
spoken thus decidedly of the pursuits   
which are advantageous or hurtful to a  
young man4 ,i repose confidence in both 

of them2 but ,i am surprised to find    
that they differ from one another4 ,and 
therefore1 ,lysimachus1 as ,laches      
suggested that you should detain me1 and
 not let me go until ,i answered1 ,i in 
turn earnestly beseech and advise you to
 detain ,laches and ,nicias1 and        
question them4 ,i would have you say to 
them3 ,socrates avers that he has no    
knowledge of the matter--he is unable to
 decide which of you speaks truly2      
neither discoverer nor student is he of 
anything of the kind4 ,but you1 ,laches 
and ,nicias1 should each of you tell us 
who is the most skilful educator whom   
you have ever known2 and whether you    
invented the art yourselves1 or learned 
of another2 and if you learned1 who were
 your respective teachers1 and who were 
their brothers in the art2 and then1 if 
you are too much occupied in politics to
 teach us yourselves1 let us go to them1
 and present them with gifts1 or make   
interest with them1 or both1 in the hope
 that they may be induced to take charge

 of our children and of yours2 and then 
they will not grow up inferior1 and     
disgrace their ancestors4 ,but if you   
are yourselves original discoverers in  
that field1 give us some proof of your  
skill4 ,who are they who1 having been   
inferior persons1 have become under your
 care good and noble8 ,for if this is   
your first attempt at education1 there  
is a danger that you may be trying the  
experiment1 not on the 'vile corpus' of 
a ,carian slave1 but on your own sons1  
or the sons of your friend1 and1 as the 
proverb says1 'break the large vessel in
 learning to make pots4' ,tell us then1 
what qualities you claim or do not      
claim4 ,make them tell you that1        
,lysimachus1 and do not let them off4   
,,lysimachus3 ,i very much approve of   
the words of ,socrates1 my friends2 but 
you1 ,nicias and ,laches1 must determine
 whether you will be questioned1 and    
give an explanation about matters of    
this sort4 ,assuredly1 ,i and ,melesias 
would be greatly pleased to hear you    

answer the questions which ,socrates    
asks1 if you will3 for ,i began by      
saying that we took you into our        
counsels because we thought that you    
would have attended to the subject1     
especially as you have children who1    
like our own1 are nearly of an age to be
 educated4 ,well1 then1 if you have no  
objection1 suppose that you take        
,socrates into partnership2 and do you  
and he ask and answer one another's     
questions3 for1 as he has well said1 we 
are deliberating about the most         
important of our concerns4 ,i hope that 
you will see fit to comply with our     
request4  ,,nicias3 ,i see very clearly1
 ,lysimachus1 that you have only known  
,socrates' father1 and have no          
acquaintance with ,socrates himself3 at 
least1 you can only have known him when 
he was a child1 and may have met him    
among his fellow-wardsmen1 in company   
with his father1 at a sacrifice1 or at  
some other gathering4 ,you clearly show 
that you have never known him since he  

arrived at manhood4  ,,lysimachus3 ,why 
do you say that1 ,nicias8  ,,nicias3    
,because you seem not to be aware that  
any one who has an intellectual affinity
 to ,socrates and enters into           
conversation with him is liable to be   
drawn into an argument2 and whatever    
subject he may start1 he will be        
continually carried round and round by  
him1 until at last he finds that he has 
to give an account both of his present  
and past life2 and when he is once      
entangled1 ,socrates will not let him go
 until he has completely and thoroughly 
sifted him4 ,now ,i am used to his ways2
 and ,i know that he will certainly do  
as ,i say1 and also that ,i myself shall
 be the sufferer2 for ,i am fond of his 
conversation1 ,lysimachus4 ,and ,i think
 that there is no harm in being reminded
 of any wrong thing which we are1 or    
have been1 doing3 he who does not fly   
from reproof will be sure to take more  
heed of his after-life2 as ,solon says1 
he will wish and desire to be learning  

so long as he lives1 and will not think 
that old age of itself brings wisdom4   
,to me1 to be cross-examined by         
,socrates is neither unusual nor        
unpleasant2 indeed1 ,i knew all along   
that where ,socrates was1 the argument  
would soon pass from our sons to        
ourselves2 and therefore1 ,i say that   
for my part1 ,i am quite willing to     
discourse with ,socrates in his own     
manner2 but you had better ask our      
friend ,laches what his feeling may be4 
,,laches3 ,i have but one feeling1      
,nicias1 or 7shall ,i say87 two         
feelings1 about discussions4 ,some would
 think that ,i am a lover1 and to others
 ,i may seem to be a hater of discourse2
 for when ,i hear a man discoursing of  
virtue1 or of any sort of wisdom1 who is
 a true man and worthy of his theme1 ,i 
am delighted beyond measure3 and ,i     
compare the man and his words1 and note 
the harmony and correspondence of them4 
,and such an one ,i deem to be the true 
musician1 attuned to a fairer harmony   

than that of the lyre1 or any pleasant  
instrument of music2 for truly he has in
 his own life a harmony of words and    
deeds arranged1 not in the ,ionian1 or  
in the ,phrygian mode1 nor yet in the   
,lydian1 but in the true ,hellenic mode1
 which is the ,dorian1 and no other4    
,such an one makes me merry with the    
sound of his voice2 and when ,i hear him
 ,i am thought to be a lover of         
discourse2 so eager am ,i in drinking in
 his words4 ,but a man whose actions do 
not agree with his words is an annoyance
 to me2 and the better he speaks the    
more ,i hate him1 and then ,i seem to be
 a hater of discourse4 ,as to ,socrates1
 ,i have no knowledge of his words1 but 
of old1 as would seem1 ,i have had      
experience of his deeds2 and his deeds  
show that free and noble sentiments are 
natural to him4 ,and if his words       
accord1 then ,i am of one mind with him1
 and shall be delighted to be           
interrogated by a man such as he is1 and
 shall not be annoyed at having to learn

 of him3 for ,i too agree with ,solon1  
'that ,i would fain grow old1 learning  
many things4' ,but ,i must be allowed to
 add 'of the good only4' ,socrates must 
be willing to allow that he is a good   
teacher1 or ,i shall be a dull and      
uncongenial pupil3 but that the teacher 
is younger1 or not as yet in            
repute--anything of that sort is of no  
account with me4 ,and therefore1        
,socrates1 ,i give you notice that you  
may teach and confute me as much as ever
 you like1 and also learn of me anything
 which ,i know4 ,so high is the opinion 
which ,i have entertained of you ever   
since the day on which you were my      
companion in danger1 and gave a proof of
 your valour such as only the man of    
merit can give4 ,therefore1 say whatever
 you like1 and do not mind about the    
difference of our ages4  ,,socrates3 ,i 
cannot say that either of you show any  
reluctance to take counsel and advise   
with me4  ,,lysimachus3 ,but this is our
 proper business2 and yours as well as  

ours1 for ,i reckon you as one of us4   
,please then to take my place1 and find 
out from ,nicias and ,laches what we    
want to know1 for the sake of the       
youths1 and talk and consult with them3 
for ,i am old1 and my memory is bad2 and
 ,i do not remember the questions which 
,i am going to ask1 or the answers to   
them2 and if there is any interruption  
,i am quite lost4 ,i will therefore beg 
of you to carry on the proposed         
discussion by your selves2 and ,i will  
listen1 and ,melesias and ,i will act   
upon your conclusions4  ,,socrates3 ,let
 us1 ,nicias and ,laches1 comply with   
the request of ,lysimachus and          
,melesias4 ,there will be no harm in    
asking ourselves the question which was 
first proposed to us3 ',who have been   
our own instructors in this sort of     
training1 and whom have we made better8'
 ,but the other mode of carrying on the 
enquiry will bring us equally to the    
same point1 and will be more like       
proceeding from first principles4 ,for  

if we knew that the addition of         
something would improve some other      
thing1 and were able to make the        
addition1 then1 clearly1 we must know   
how that about which we are advising may
 be best and most easily attained4      
,perhaps you do not understand what ,i  
mean4 ,then let me make my meaning      
plainer in this way4 ,suppose we knew   
that the addition of sight makes better 
the eyes which possess this gift1 and   
also were able to impart sight to the   
eyes1 then1 clearly1 we should know the 
nature of sight1 and should be able to  
advise how this gift of sight may be    
best and most easily attained2 but if we
 knew neither what sight is1 nor what   
hearing is1 we should not be very good  
medical advisers about the eyes or the  
ears1 or about the best mode of giving  
sight and hearing to them4  ,,laches3   
,that is true1 ,socrates4  ,,socrates3  
,and are not our two friends1 ,laches1  
at this very moment inviting us to      
consider in what way the gift of virtue 

may be imparted to their sons for the   
improvement of their minds8  ,,laches3  
,very true4  ,,socrates3 ,then must we  
not first know the nature of virtue8    
,for how can we advise any one about the
 best mode of attaining something of    
which we are wholly ignorant8  ,,laches3
 ,i do not think that we can1 ,socrates4
  ,,socrates3 ,then1 ,laches1 we may    
presume that we know the nature of      
virtue8  ,,laches3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3   
,and that which we know we must surely  
be able to tell8  ,,laches3 ,certainly4 
,,socrates3 ,i would not have us begin1 
my friend1 with enquiring about the     
whole of virtue2 for that may be more   
than we can accomplish2 let us first    
consider whether we have a sufficient   
knowledge of a part2 the enquiry will   
thus probably be made easier to us4     
,,laches3 ,let us do as you say1        
,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,then which of  
the parts of virtue shall we select8    
,must we not select that to which the   
art of fighting in armour is supposed to

 conduce8 ,and is not that generally    
thought to be courage8  ,,laches3 ,yes1 
certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,then1 ,laches1 
suppose that we first set about         
determining the nature of courage1 and  
in the second place proceed to enquire  
how the young men may attain this       
quality by the help of studies and      
pursuits4 ,tell me1 if you can1 what is 
courage4  ,,laches3 ,indeed1 ,socrates1 
,i see no difficulty in answering2 he is
 a man of courage who does not run away1
 but remains at his post and fights     
against the enemy2 there can be no      
mistake about that4  ,,socrates3 ,very  
good1 ,laches2 and yet ,i fear that ,i  
did not express myself clearly2 and     
therefore you have answered not the     
question which ,i intended to ask1 but  
another4  ,,laches3 ,what do you mean1  
,socrates8  ,,socrates3 ,i will         
endeavour to explain2 you would call a  
man courageous who remains at his post1 
and fights with the enemy8  ,,laches3   
,certainly ,i should4  ,,socrates3 ,and 

so should ,i2 but what would you say of 
another man1 who fights flying1 instead 
of remaining8  ,,laches3 ,how flying8   
,,socrates3 ,why1 as the ,scythians are 
said to fight1 flying as well as        
pursuing2 and as ,homer says in praise  
of the horses of ,aeneas1 that they knew
 'how to pursue1 and fly quickly hither 
and thither'2 and he passes an encomium 
on ,aeneas himself1 as having a         
knowledge of fear or flight1 and calls  
him 'an author of fear or flight4'      
,,laches3 ,yes1 ,socrates1 and there    
,homer is right3 for he was speaking of 
chariots1 as you were speaking of the   
,scythian cavalry1 who have that way of 
fighting2 but the heavy-armed ,greek    
fights1 as ,i say1 remaining in his     
rank4  ,,socrates3 ,and yet1 ,laches1   
you must except the ,lacedaemonians at  
,plataea1 who1 when they came upon the  
light shields of the ,persians1 are said
 not to have been willing to stand and  
fight1 and to have fled2 but when the   
ranks of the ,persians were broken1 they

 turned upon them like cavalry1 and won 
the battle of ,plataea4  ,,laches3 ,that
 is true4  ,,socrates3 ,that was my     
meaning when ,i said that ,i was to     
blame in having put my question badly1  
and that this was the reason of your    
answering badly4 ,for ,i meant to ask   
you not only about the courage of       
heavy-armed soldiers1 but about the     
courage of cavalry and every other style
 of soldier2 and not only who are       
courageous in war1 but who are          
courageous in perils by sea1 and who in 
disease1 or in poverty1 or again in     
politics1 are courageous2 and not only  
who are courageous against pain or fear1
 but mighty to contend against desires  
and pleasures1 either fixed in their    
rank or turning upon their enemy4 ,there
 is this sort of courage--is there not1 
,laches8  ,,laches3 ,certainly1         
,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,and all these  
are courageous1 but some have courage in
 pleasures1 and some in pains3 some in  
desires1 and some in fears1 and some are

 cowards under the same conditions1 as  
,i should imagine4  ,,laches3 ,very     
true4  ,,socrates3 ,now ,i was asking   
about courage and cowardice in general4 
,and ,i will begin with courage1 and    
once more ask1 ,what is that common     
quality1 which is the same in all these 
cases1 and which is called courage8 ,do 
you now understand what ,i mean8        
,,laches3 ,not over well4  ,,socrates3  
,i mean this3 ,as ,i might ask what is  
that quality which is called quickness1 
and which is found in running1 in       
playing the lyre1 in speaking1 in       
learning1 and in many other similar     
actions1 or rather which we possess in  
nearly every action that is worth       
mentioning of arms1 legs1 mouth1 voice1 
mind2--would you not apply the term     
quickness to all of them8  ,,laches3    
,quite true4  ,,socrates3 ,and suppose  
,i were to be asked by some one3 ,what  
is that common quality1 ,socrates1      
which1 in all these uses of the word1   
you call quickness8 ,i should say the   

quality which accomplishes much in a    
little time--whether in running1        
speaking1 or in any other sort of       
action4  ,,laches3 ,you would be quite  
correct4  ,,socrates3 ,and now1 ,laches1
 do you try and tell me in like manner1 
,what is that common quality which is   
called courage1 and which includes all  
the various uses of the term when       
applied both to pleasure and pain1 and  
in all the cases to which ,i was just   
now referring8  ,,laches3 ,i should say 
that courage is a sort of endurance of  
the soul1 if ,i am to speak of the      
universal nature which pervades them    
all4  ,,socrates3 ,but that is what we  
must do if we are to answer the         
question4 ,and yet ,i cannot say that   
every kind of endurance is1 in my       
opinion1 to be deemed courage4 ,hear my 
reason3 ,i am sure1 ,laches1 that you   
would consider courage to be a very     
noble quality4  ,,laches3 ,most noble1  
certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,and you would  
say that a wise endurance is also good  

and noble8  ,,laches3 ,very noble4      
,,socrates3 ,but what would you say of a
 foolish endurance8 ,is not that1 on the
 other hand1 to be regarded as evil and 
hurtful8  ,,laches3 ,true4  ,,socrates3 
,and is anything noble which is evil and
 hurtful8  ,,laches3 ,i ought not to say
 that1 ,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,then you
 would not admit that sort of endurance 
to be courage--for it is not noble1 but 
courage is noble8  ,,laches3 ,you are   
right4  ,,socrates3 ,then1 according to 
you1 only the wise endurance is courage8
  ,,laches3 ,true4  ,,socrates3 ,but as 
to the epithet 'wise1'--wise in what8   
,in all things small as well as great8  
,for example1 if a man shows the quality
 of endurance in spending his money     
wisely1 knowing that by spending he will
 acquire more in the end1 do you call   
him courageous8  ,,laches3 ,assuredly   
not4  ,,socrates3 ,or1 for example1 if a
 man is a physician1 and his son1 or    
some patient of his1 has inflammation of
 the lungs1 and begs that he may be     

allowed to eat or drink something1 and  
the other is firm and refuses2 is that  
courage8  ,,laches3 ,no2 that is not    
courage at all1 any more than the last4 
,,socrates3 ,again1 take the case of one
 who endures in war1 and is willing to  
fight1 and wisely calculates and knows  
that others will help him1 and that     
there will be fewer and inferior men    
against him than there are with him2 and
 suppose that he has also advantages of 
position2 would you say of such a one   
who endures with all this wisdom and    
preparation1 that he1 or some man in the
 opposing army who is in the opposite   
circumstances to these and yet endures  
and remains at his post1 is the braver8 
,,laches3 ,i should say that the latter1
 ,socrates1 was the braver4  ,,socrates3
 ,but1 surely1 this is a foolish        
endurance in comparison with the other8 
,,laches3 ,that is true4  ,,socrates3   
,then you would say that he who in an   
engagement of cavalry endures1 having   
the knowledge of horsemanship1 is not so

 courageous as he who endures1 having no
 such knowledge8  ,,laches3 ,so ,i      
should say4  ,,socrates3 ,and he who    
endures1 having a knowledge of the use  
of the sling1 or the bow1 or of any     
other art1 is not so courageous as he   
who endures1 not having such a          
knowledge8  ,,laches3 ,true4            
,,socrates3 ,and he who descends into a 
well1 and dives1 and holds out in this  
or any similar action1 having no        
knowledge of diving1 or the like1 is1 as
 you would say1 more courageous than    
those who have this knowledge8          
,,laches3 ,why1 ,socrates1 what else can
 a man say8  ,,socrates3 ,nothing1 if   
that be what he thinks4  ,,laches3 ,but 
that is what ,i do think4  ,,socrates3  
,and yet men who thus run risks and     
endure are foolish1 ,laches1 in         
comparison of those who do the same     
things1 having the skill to do them4    
,,laches3 ,that is true4  ,,socrates3   
,but foolish boldness and endurance     
appeared before to be base and hurtful  

to us4  ,,laches3 ,quite true4          
,,socrates3 ,whereas courage was        
acknowledged to be a noble quality4     
,,laches3 ,true4  ,,socrates3 ,and now  
on the contrary we are saying that the  
foolish endurance1 which was before held
 in dishonour1 is courage4  ,,laches3   
,very true4  ,,socrates3 ,and are we    
right in saying so8  ,,laches3 ,indeed1 
,socrates1 ,i am sure that we are not   
right4  ,,socrates3 ,then according to  
your statement1 you and ,i1 ,laches1 are
 not attuned to the ,dorian mode1 which 
is a harmony of words and deeds2 for our
 deeds are not in accordance with our   
words4 ,any one would say that we had   
courage who saw us in action1 but not1  
,i imagine1 he who heard us talking     
about courage just now4  ,,laches3 ,that
 is most true4  ,,socrates3 ,and is this
 condition of ours satisfactory8        
,,laches3 ,quite the reverse4           
,,socrates3 ,suppose1 however1 that we  
admit the principle of which we are     
speaking to a certain extent4  ,,laches3

 ,to what extent and what principle do  
you mean8  ,,socrates3 ,the principle of
 endurance4 ,we too must endure and     
persevere in the enquiry1 and then      
courage will not laugh at our           
faint-heartedness in searching for      
courage2 which after all may1 very      
likely1 be endurance4  ,,laches3 ,i am  
ready to go on1 ,socrates2 and yet ,i am
 unused to investigations of this sort4 
,but the spirit of controversy has been 
aroused in me by what has been said2 and
 ,i am really grieved at being thus     
unable to express my meaning4 ,for ,i   
fancy that ,i do know the nature of     
courage2 but1 somehow or other1 she has 
slipped away from me1 and ,i cannot get 
hold of her and tell her nature4        
,,socrates3 ,but1 my dear friend1 should
 not the good sportsman follow the      
track1 and not be lazy8  ,,laches3      
,certainly1 he should4  ,,socrates3 ,and
 shall we invite ,nicias to join us8 he 
may be better at the sport than we are4 
,what do you say8  ,,laches3 ,i should  

like that4  ,,socrates3 ,come then1     
,nicias1 and do what you can to help    
your friends1 who are tossing on the    
waves of argument1 and at the last gasp3
 you see our extremity1 and may save us 
and also settle your own opinion1 if you
 will tell us what you think about      
courage4  ,,nicias3 ,i have been        
thinking1 ,socrates1 that you and       
,laches are not defining courage in the 
right way2 for you have forgotten an    
excellent saying which ,i have heard    
from your own lips4  ,,socrates3 ,what  
is it1 ,nicias8  ,,nicias3 ,i have often
 heard you say that ',every man is good 
in that in which he is wise1 and bad in 
that in which he is unwise4'            
,,socrates3 ,that is certainly true1    
,nicias4  ,,nicias3 ,and therefore if   
the brave man is good1 he is also wise4 
,,socrates3 ,do you hear him1 ,laches8  
,,laches3 ,yes1 ,i hear him1 but ,i do  
not very well understand him4           
,,socrates3 ,i think that ,i understand 
him2 and he appears to me to mean that  

courage is a sort of wisdom4  ,,laches3 
,what can he possibly mean1 ,socrates8  
,,socrates3 ,that is a question which   
you must ask of himself4  ,,laches3     
,yes4  ,,socrates3 ,tell him then1      
,nicias1 what you mean by this wisdom2  
for you surely do not mean the wisdom   
which plays the flute8  ,,nicias3       
,certainly not4  ,,socrates3 ,nor the   
wisdom which plays the lyre8  ,,nicias3 
,no4  ,,socrates3 ,but what is this     
knowledge then1 and of what8  ,,laches3 
,i think that you put the question to   
him very well1 ,socrates2 and ,i would  
like him to say what is the nature of   
this knowledge or wisdom4  ,,nicias3 ,i 
mean to say1 ,laches1 that courage is   
the knowledge of that which inspires    
fear or confidence in war1 or in        
anything4  ,,laches3 ,how strangely he  
is talking1 ,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,why
 do you say so1 ,laches8  ,,laches3     
,why1 surely courage is one thing1 and  
wisdom another4  ,,socrates3 ,that is   
just what ,nicias denies4  ,,laches3    

,yes1 that is what he denies2 but he is 
so silly4  ,,socrates3 ,suppose that we 
instruct instead of abusing him8        
,,nicias3 ,laches does not want to      
instruct me1 ,socrates2 but having been 
proved to be talking nonsense himself1  
he wants to prove that ,i have been     
doing the same4  ,,laches3 ,very true1  
,nicias2 and you are talking nonsense1  
as ,i shall endeavour to show4 ,let me  
ask you a question3 ,do not physicians  
know the dangers of disease8 or do the  
courageous know them8 or are the        
physicians the same as the courageous8  
,,nicias3 ,not at all4  ,,laches3 ,no   
more than the husbandmen who know the   
dangers of husbandry1 or than other     
craftsmen1 who have a knowledge of that 
which inspires them with fear or        
confidence in their own arts1 and yet   
they are not courageous a whit the more 
for that4  ,,socrates3 ,what is ,laches 
saying1 ,nicias8 ,he appears to be      
saying something of importance4         
,,nicias3 ,yes1 he is saying something1 

but it is not true4  ,,socrates3 ,how   
so8  ,,nicias3 ,why1 because he does not
 see that the physician's knowledge only
 extends to the nature of health and    
disease3 he can tell the sick man no    
more than this4 ,do you imagine1        
,laches1 that the physician knows       
whether health or disease is the more   
terrible to a man8 ,had not many a man  
better never get up from a sick bed8 ,i 
should like to know whether you think   
that life is always better than death4  
,may not death often be the better of   
the two8  ,,laches3 ,yes certainly so in
 my opinion4  ,,nicias3 ,and do you     
think that the same things are terrible 
to those who had better die1 and to     
those who had better live8  ,,laches3   
,certainly not4  ,,nicias3 ,and do you  
suppose that the physician or any other 
artist knows this1 or any one indeed1   
except he who is skilled in the grounds 
of fear and hope8 ,and him ,i call the  
courageous4  ,,socrates3 ,do you        
understand his meaning1 ,laches8        

,,laches3 ,yes2 ,i suppose that1 in his 
way of speaking1 the soothsayers are    
courageous4 ,for who but one of them can
 know to whom to die or to live is      
better8 ,and yet ,nicias1 would you     
allow that you are yourself a           
soothsayer1 or are you neither a        
soothsayer nor courageous8  ,,nicias3   
,what6 do you mean to say that the      
soothsayer ought to know the grounds of 
hope or fear8  ,,laches3 ,indeed ,i do3 
who but he8  ,,nicias3 ,much rather ,i  
should say he of whom ,i speak2 for the 
soothsayer ought to know only the signs 
of things that are about to come to     
pass1 whether death or disease1 or loss 
of property1 or victory1 or defeat in   
war1 or in any sort of contest2 but to  
whom the suffering or not suffering of  
these things will be for the best1 can  
no more be decided by the soothsayer    
than by one who is no soothsayer4       
,,laches3 ,i cannot understand what     
,nicias would be at1 ,socrates2 for he  
represents the courageous man as neither

 a soothsayer1 nor a physician1 nor in  
any other character1 unless he means to 
say that he is a god4 ,my opinion is    
that he does not like honestly to       
confess that he is talking nonsense1 but
 that he shuffles up and down in order  
to conceal the difficulty into which he 
has got himself4 ,you and ,i1 ,socrates1
 might have practised a similar shuffle 
just now1 if we had only wanted to avoid
 the appearance of inconsistency4 ,and  
if we had been arguing in a court of law
 there might have been reason in so     
doing2 but why should a man deck himself
 out with vain words at a meeting of    
friends such as this8  ,,socrates3 ,i   
quite agree with you1 ,laches1 that he  
should not4 ,but perhaps ,nicias is     
serious1 and not merely talking for the 
sake of talking4 ,let us ask him just to
 explain what he means1 and if he has   
reason on his side we will agree with   
him2 if not1 we will instruct him4      
,,laches3 ,do you1 ,socrates1 if you    
like1 ask him3 ,i think that ,i have    

asked enough4  ,,socrates3 ,i do not see
 why ,i should not2 and my question will
 do for both of us4  ,,laches3 ,very    
good4  ,,socrates3 ,then tell me1       
,nicias1 or rather tell us1 for ,laches 
and ,i are partners in the argument3 ,do
 you mean to affirm that courage is the 
knowledge of the grounds of hope and    
fear8  ,,nicias3 ,i do4  ,,socrates3    
,and not every man has this knowledge2  
the physician and the soothsayer have it
 not2 and they will not be courageous   
unless they acquire it--that is what you
 were saying8  ,,nicias3 ,i was4        
,,socrates3 ,then this is certainly not 
a thing which every pig would know1 as  
the proverb says1 and therefore he could
 not be courageous4  ,,nicias3 ,i think 
not4  ,,socrates3 ,clearly not1 ,nicias2
 not even such a big pig as the         
,crommyonian sow would be called by you 
courageous4 ,and this ,i say not as a   
joke1 but because ,i think that he who  
assents to your doctrine1 that courage  
is the knowledge of the grounds of fear 

and hope1 cannot allow that any wild    
beast is courageous1 unless he admits   
that a lion1 or a leopard1 or perhaps a 
boar1 or any other animal1 has such a   
degree of wisdom that he knows things   
which but a few human beings ever know  
by reason of their difficulty4 ,he who  
takes your view of courage must affirm  
that a lion1 and a stag1 and a bull1 and
 a monkey1 have equally little          
pretensions to courage4  ,,laches3      
,capital1 ,socrates2 by the gods1 that  
is truly good4 ,and ,i hope1 ,nicias1   
that you will tell us whether these     
animals1 which we all admit to be       
courageous1 are really wiser than       
mankind2 or whether you will have the   
boldness1 in the face of universal      
opinion1 to deny their courage4         
,,nicias3 ,why1 ,laches1 ,i do not call 
animals or any other things which have  
no fear of dangers1 because they are    
ignorant of them1 courageous1 but only  
fearless and senseless4 ,do you imagine 
that ,i should call little children     

courageous1 which fear no dangers       
because they know none8 ,there is a     
difference1 to my way of thinking1      
between fearlessness and courage4 ,i am 
of opinion that thoughtful courage is a 
quality possessed by very few1 but that 
rashness and boldness1 and fearlessness1
 which has no forethought1 are very     
common qualities possessed by many men1 
many women1 many children1 many animals4
 ,and you1 and men in general1 call by  
the term 'courageous' actions which ,i  
call rash2--my courageous actions are   
wise actions4  ,,laches3 ,behold1       
,socrates1 how admirably1 as he thinks1 
he dresses himself out in words1 while  
seeking to deprive of the honour of     
courage those whom all the world        
acknowledges to be courageous4          
,,nicias3 ,not so1 ,laches1 but do not  
be alarmed2 for ,i am quite willing to  
say of you and also of ,lamachus1 and of
 many other ,athenians1 that you are    
courageous and therefore wise4          
,,laches3 ,i could answer that2 but ,i  

would not have you cast in my teeth that
 ,i am a haughty ,aexonian4  ,,socrates3
 ,do not answer him1 ,laches2 ,i rather 
fancy that you are not aware of the     
source from which his wisdom is derived4
 ,he has got all this from my friend    
,damon1 and ,damon is always with       
,prodicus1 who1 of all the ,sophists1 is
 considered to be the best puller to    
pieces of words of this sort4  ,,laches3
 ,yes1 ,socrates2 and the examination of
 such niceties is a much more suitable  
employment for a ,sophist than for a    
great statesman whom the city chooses to
 preside over her4  ,,socrates3 ,yes1 my
 sweet friend1 but a great statesman is 
likely to have a great intelligence4    
,and ,i think that the view which is    
implied in ,nicias' definition of       
courage is worthy of examination4       
,,laches3 ,then examine for yourself1   
,socrates4  ,,socrates3 ,that is what ,i
 am going to do1 my dear friend4 ,do    
not1 however1 suppose ,i shall let you  
out of the partnership2 for ,i shall    

expect you to apply your mind1 and join 
with me in the consideration of the     
question4  ,,laches3 ,i will if you     
think that ,i ought4  ,,socrates3 ,yes1 
,i do2 but ,i must beg of you1 ,nicias1 
to begin again4 ,you remember that we   
originally considered courage to be a   
part of virtue4  ,,nicias3 ,very true4  
,,socrates3 ,and you yourself said that 
it was a part2 and there were many other
 parts1 all of which taken together are 
called virtue4  ,,nicias3 ,certainly4   
,,socrates3 ,do you agree with me about 
the parts8 ,for ,i say that justice1    
temperance1 and the like1 are all of    
them parts of virtue as well as courage4
 ,would you not say the same8  ,,nicias3
 ,certainly4  ,,socrates3 ,well then1 so
 far we are agreed4 ,and now let us     
proceed a step1 and try to arrive at a  
similar agreement about the fearful and 
the hopeful3 ,i do not want you to be   
thinking one thing and myself another4  
,let me then tell you my own opinion1   
and if ,i am wrong you shall set me     

right3 in my opinion the terrible and   
the hopeful are the things which do or  
do not create fear1 and fear is not of  
the present1 nor of the past1 but is of 
future and expected evil4 ,do you not   
agree to that1 ,laches8  ,,laches3 ,yes1
 ,socrates1 entirely4  ,,socrates3 ,that
 is my view1 ,nicias2 the terrible      
things1 as ,i should say1 are the evils 
which are future2 and the hopeful are   
the good or not evil things which are   
future4 ,do you or do you not agree with
 me8  ,,nicias3 ,i agree4  ,,socrates3  
,and the knowledge of these things you  
call courage8  ,,nicias3 ,precisely4    
,,socrates3 ,and now let me see whether 
you agree with ,laches and myself as to 
a third point4  ,,nicias3 ,what is that8
  ,,socrates3 ,i will tell you4 ,he and 
,i have a notion that there is not one  
knowledge or science of the past1       
another of the present1 a third of what 
is likely to be best and what will be   
best in the future2 but that of all     
three there is one science only3 for    

example1 there is one science of        
medicine which is concerned with the    
inspection of health equally in all     
times1 present1 past1 and future2 and   
one science of husbandry in like manner1
 which is concerned with the productions
 of the earth in all times4 ,as to the  
art of the general1 you yourselves will 
be my witnesses that he has an excellent
 foreknowledge of the future1 and that  
he claims to be the master and not the  
servant of the soothsayer1 because he   
knows better what is happening or is    
likely to happen in war3 and accordingly
 the law places the soothsayer under the
 general1 and not the general under the 
soothsayer4 ,am ,i not correct in saying
 so1 ,laches8  ,,laches3 ,quite correct4
  ,,socrates3 ,and do you1 ,nicias1 also
 acknowledge that the same science has  
understanding of the same things1       
whether future1 present1 or past8       
,,nicias3 ,yes1 indeed ,socrates2 that  
is my opinion4  ,,socrates3 ,and        
courage1 my friend1 is1 as you say1 a   

knowledge of the fearful and of the     
hopeful8  ,,nicias3 ,yes4  ,,socrates3  
,and the fearful1 and the hopeful1 are  
admitted to be future goods and future  
evils8  ,,nicias3 ,true4  ,,socrates3   
,and the same science has to do with the
 same things in the future or at any    
time8  ,,nicias3 ,that is true4         
,,socrates3 ,then courage is not the    
science which is concerned with the     
fearful and hopeful1 for they are future
 only2 courage1 like the other sciences1
 is concerned not only with good and    
evil of the future1 but of the present  
and past1 and of any time8  ,,nicias3   
,that1 as ,i suppose1 is true4          
,,socrates3 ,then the answer which you  
have given1 ,nicias1 includes only a    
third part of courage2 but our question 
extended to the whole nature of courage3
 and according to your view1 that is1   
according to your present view1 courage 
is not only the knowledge of the hopeful
 and the fearful1 but seems to include  
nearly every good and evil without      

reference to time4 ,what do you say to  
that alteration in your statement8      
,,nicias3 ,i agree1 ,socrates4          
,,socrates3 ,but then1 my dear friend1  
if a man knew all good and evil1 and how
 they are1 and have been1 and will be   
produced1 would he not be perfect1 and  
wanting in no virtue1 whether justice1  
or temperance1 or holiness8 ,he would   
possess them all1 and he would know     
which were dangers and which were not1  
and guard against them whether they were
 supernatural or natural2 and he would  
provide the good1 as he would know how  
to deal both with gods or men4          
,,nicias3 ,i think1 ,socrates1 that     
there is a great deal of truth in what  
you say4  ,,socrates3 ,but then1        
,nicias1 courage1 according to this new 
definition of yours1 instead of being a 
part of virtue only1 will be all virtue8
  ,,nicias3 ,it would seem so4          
,,socrates3 ,but we were saying that    
courage is one of the parts of virtue8  
,,nicias3 ,yes1 that was what we were   

saying4  ,,socrates3 ,and that is in    
contradiction with our present view8    
,,nicias3 ,that appears to be the case4 
,,socrates3 ,then1 ,nicias1 we have not 
discovered what courage is4  ,,nicias3  
,we have not4  ,,laches3 ,and yet1      
friend ,nicias1 ,i imagined that you    
would have made the discovery1 when you 
were so contemptuous of the answers     
which ,i made to ,socrates4 ,i had very 
great hopes that you would have been    
enlightened by the wisdom of ,damon4    
,,nicias3 ,i perceive1 ,laches1 that you
 think nothing of having displayed your 
ignorance of the nature of courage1 but 
you look only to see whether ,i have not
 made a similar display2 and if we are  
both equally ignorant of the things     
which a man who is good for anything    
should know1 that1 ,i suppose1 will be  
of no consequence4 ,you certainly appear
 to me very like the rest of the world1 
looking at your neighbour and not at    
yourself4 ,i am of opinion that enough  
has been said on the subject which we   

have been discussing2 and if anything   
has been imperfectly said1 that may be  
hereafter corrected by the help of      
,damon1 whom you think to laugh down1   
although you have never seen him1 and   
with the help of others4 ,and when ,i am
 satisfied myself1 ,i will freely impart
 my satisfaction to you1 for ,i think   
that you are very much in want of       
knowledge4  ,,laches3 ,you are a        
philosopher1 ,nicias2 of that ,i am     
aware3 nevertheless ,i would recommend  
,lysimachus and ,melesias not to take   
you and me as advisers about the        
education of their children2 but1 as ,i 
said at first1 they should ask ,socrates
 and not let him off2 if my own sons    
were old enough1 ,i would have asked him
 myself4  ,,nicias3 ,to that ,i quite   
agree1 if ,socrates is willing to take  
them under his charge4 ,i should not    
wish for any one else to be the tutor of
 ,niceratus4 ,but ,i observe that when  
,i mention the matter to him he         
recommends to me some other tutor and   

refuses himself4 ,perhaps he may be more
 ready to listen to you1 ,lysimachus4   
,,lysimachus3 ,he ought1 ,nicias3 for   
certainly ,i would do things for him    
which ,i would not do for many others4  
,what do you say1 ,socrates--will you   
comply8 ,and are you ready to give      
assistance in the improvement of the    
youths8  ,,socrates3 ,indeed1           
,lysimachus1 ,i should be very wrong in 
refusing to aid in the improvement of   
anybody4 ,and if ,i had shown in this   
conversation that ,i had a knowledge    
which ,nicias and ,laches have not1 then
 ,i admit that you would be right in    
inviting me to perform this duty2 but as
 we are all in the same perplexity1 why 
should one of us be preferred to        
another8 ,i certainly think that no one 
should2 and under these circumstances1  
let me offer you a piece of advice 7and 
this need not go further than           
ourselves74 ,i maintain1 my friends1    
that every one of us should seek out the
 best teacher whom he can find1 first   

for ourselves1 who are greatly in need  
of one1 and then for the youth1         
regardless of expense or anything4 ,but 
,i cannot advise that we remain as we   
are4 ,and if any one laughs at us for   
going to school at our age1 ,i would    
quote to them the authority of ,homer1  
who says1 that  ',modesty is not good   
for a needy man4'  ,let us then1        
regardless of what may be said of us1   
make the education of the youths our own
 education4  ,,lysimachus3 ,i like your 
proposal1 ,socrates2 and as ,i am the   
oldest1 ,i am also the most eager to go 
to school with the boys4 ,let me beg a  
favour of you3 ,come to my house        
to-morrow at dawn1 and we will advise   
about these matters4 ,for the present1  
let us make an end of the conversation4 
,,socrates3 ,i will come to you         
to-morrow1 ,lysimachus1 as you propose1 
,god willing4