,,lysis  ,by ,plato   ,translated by    
,benjamin ,jowett     ,,introduction4   
,no answer is given in the ,lysis to the
 question1 ',what is ,friendship8' any  
more than in the ,charmides to the      
question1 ',what is ,temperance8' ,there
 are several resemblances in the two    
,dialogues3 the same youthfulness and   
sense of beauty pervades both of them2  
they are alike rich in the description  
of ,greek life4 ,the question is again  
raised of the relation of knowledge to  
virtue and good1 which also recurs in   
the ,laches2 and ,socrates appears again
 as the elder friend of the two boys1   
,lysis and ,menexenus4 ,in the          
,charmides1 as also in the ,laches1 he  
is described as middle-aged2 in the     
,lysis he is advanced in years4  ,the   
,dialogue consists of two scenes or     
conversations which seem to have no     
relation to each other4 ,the first is a 
conversation between ,socrates and      
,lysis1 who1 like ,charmides1 is an     
,athenian youth of noble descent and of 

great beauty1 goodness1 and             
intelligence3 this is carried on in the 
absence of ,menexenus1 who is called    
away to take part in a sacrifice4       
,socrates asks ,lysis whether his father
 and mother do not love him very much8  
',to be sure they do4' ',then of course 
they allow him to do exactly as he      
likes4' ',of course not3 the very slaves
 have more liberty than he has4' ',but  
how is this8' ',the reason is that he is
 not old enough4' ',no2 the real reason 
is that he is not wise enough3 for are  
there not some things which he is       
allowed to do1 although he is not       
allowed to do others8' ',yes1 because he
 knows them1 and does not know the      
others4' ,this leads to the conclusion  
that all men everywhere will trust him  
in what he knows1 but not in what he    
does not know2 for in such matters he   
will be unprofitable to them1 and do    
them no good4 ,and no one will love him1
 if he does them no good2 and he can    
only do them good by knowledge2 and as  

he is still without knowledge1 he can   
have as yet no conceit of knowledge4 ,in
 this manner ,socrates reads a lesson to
 ,hippothales1 the foolish lover of     
,lysis1 respecting the style of         
conversation which he should address to 
his beloved4  ,after the return of      
,menexenus1 ,socrates1 at the request of
 ,lysis1 asks him a new question3 ',what
 is friendship8 ,you1 ,menexenus1 who   
have a friend already1 can tell me1 who 
am always longing to find one1 what is  
the secret of this great blessing4'     
,when one man loves another1 which is   
the friend--he who loves1 or he who is  
loved8 ,or are both friends8 ,from the  
first of these suppositions they are    
driven to the second2 and from the      
second to the third2 and neither the two
 boys nor ,socrates are satisfied with  
any of the three or with all of them4   
,socrates turns to the poets1 who affirm
 that ,god brings like to like 7,homer71
 and to philosophers 7,empedocles71 who 
also assert that like is the friend of  

like4 ,but the bad are not friends1 for 
they are not even like themselves1 and  
still less are they like one another4   
,and the good have no need of one       
another1 and therefore do not care about
 one another4 ,moreover there are others
 who say that likeness is a cause of    
aversion1 and unlikeness of love and    
friendship2 and they too adduce the     
authority of poets and philosophers in  
support of their doctrines2 for ,hesiod 
says that 'potter is jealous of potter1 
bard of bard2' and subtle doctors tell  
us that 'moist is the friend of dry1 hot
 of cold1' and the like4 ,but neither   
can their doctrine be maintained2 for   
then the just would be the friend of the
 unjust1 good of evil4  ,thus we arrive 
at the conclusion that like is not the  
friend of like1 nor unlike of unlike2   
and therefore good is not the friend of 
good1 nor evil of evil1 nor good of     
evil1 nor evil of good4 ,what remains   
but that the indifferent1 which is      
neither good nor evil1 should be the    

friend 7not of the indifferent1 for that
 would be 'like the friend of like1'    
but7 of the good1 or rather of the      
beautiful8  ,but why should the         
indifferent have this attachment to the 
beautiful or good8 ,there are           
circumstances under which such an       
attachment would be natural4 ,suppose   
the indifferent1 say the human body1 to 
be desirous of getting rid of some evil1
 such as disease1 which is not essential
 but only accidental to it 7for if the  
evil were essential the body would cease
 to be indifferent1 and would become    
evil7--in such a case the indifferent   
becomes a friend of the good for the    
sake of getting rid of the evil4 ,in    
this intermediate 'indifferent' position
 the philosopher or lover of wisdom     
stands3 he is not wise1 and yet not     
unwise1 but he has ignorance            
accidentally clinging to him1 and he    
yearns for wisdom as the cure of the    
evil4 7,symp47  ,after this explanation 
has been received with triumphant       

accord1 a fresh dissatisfaction begins  
to steal over the mind of ,socrates3    
,must not friendship be for the sake of 
some ulterior end8 and what can that    
final cause or end of friendship be1    
other than the good8 ,but the good is   
desired by us only as the cure of evil2 
and therefore if there were no evil     
there would be no friendship4 ,some     
other explanation then has to be        
devised4 ,may not desire be the source  
of friendship8 ,and desire is of what a 
man wants and of what is congenial to   
him4 ,but then the congenial cannot be  
the same as the like2 for like1 as has  
been already shown1 cannot be the friend
 of like4 ,nor can the congenial be the 
good2 for good is not the friend of     
good1 as has been also shown4 ,the      
problem is unsolved1 and the three      
friends1 ,socrates1 ,lysis1 and         
,menexenus1 are still unable to find out
 what a friend is4  ,thus1 as in the    
,charmides and ,laches1 and several of  
the other ,dialogues of ,plato 7compare 

especially the ,protagoras and          
,theaetetus71 no conclusion is arrived  
at4 ,socrates maintains his character of
 a 'know nothing2' but the boys have    
already learned the lesson which he is  
unable to teach them1 and they are free 
from the conceit of knowledge4 7,compare
 ,chrm47 ,the dialogue is what would be 
called in the language of ,thrasyllus   
tentative or inquisitive4 ,the subject  
is continued in the ,phaedrus and       
,symposium1 and treated1 with a manifest
 reference to the ,lysis1 in the eighth 
and ninth books of the ,nicomachean     
,ethics of ,aristotle4 ,as in other     
writings of ,plato 7for example1 the    
,republic71 there is a progress from    
unconscious morality1 illustrated by the
 friendship of the two youths1 and also 
by the sayings of the poets 7'who are   
our fathers in wisdom1' and yet only    
tell us half the truth1 and in this     
particular instance are not much        
improved upon by the philosophers71 to a
 more comprehensive notion of           

friendship4 ,this1 however1 is far from 
being cleared of its perplexity4 ,two   
notions appear to be struggling or      
balancing in the mind of                
,socrates3--,first1 the sense that      
friendship arises out of human needs and
 wants2 ,secondly1 that the higher form 
or ideal of friendship exists only for  
the sake of the good4 ,that friends are 
not necessarily either like or unlike1  
is also a truth confirmed by experience4
 ,but the use of the terms 'like' or    
'good' is too strictly limited2         
,socrates has allowed himself to be     
carried away by a sort of eristic or    
illogical logic against which no        
definition of friendship would be able  
to stand4 ,in the course of the argument
 he makes a distinction between property
 and accident which is a real           
contribution to the science of logic4   
,some higher truths appear through the  
mist4 ,the manner in which the field of 
argument is widened1 as in the          
,charmides and ,laches by the           

introduction of the idea of knowledge1  
so here by the introduction of the good1
 is deserving of attention4 ,the sense  
of the inter-dependence of good and     
evil1 and the allusion to the           
possibility of the non-existence of     
evil1 are also very remarkable4  ,the   
dialectical interest is fully sustained 
by the dramatic accompaniments4         
,observe1 first1 the scene1 which is a  
,greek ,palaestra1 at a time when a     
sacrifice is going on1 and the ,hermaea 
are in course of celebration2 secondly1 
the 'accustomed irony' of ,socrates1 who
 declares1 as in the ,symposium1 that he
 is ignorant of all other things1 but   
claims to have a knowledge of the       
mysteries of love4 ,there are likewise  
several contrasts of character2 first of
 the dry1 caustic ,ctesippus1 of whom   
,socrates professes a humorous sort of  
fear1 and ,hippothales the flighty      
lover1 who murders sleep by bawling out 
the name of his beloved2 there is also a
 contrast between the false1            

exaggerated1 sentimental love of        
,hippothales towards ,lysis1 and the    
childlike and innocent friendship of the
 boys with one another4 ,some difference
 appears to be intended between the     
characters of the more talkative        
,menexenus and the reserved and simple  
,lysis4 ,socrates draws out the latter  
by a new sort of irony1 which is        
sometimes adopted in talking to         
children1 and consists in asking a      
leading question which can only be      
answered in a sense contrary to the     
intention of the question3 ',your father
 and mother of course allow you to drive
 the chariot8' ',no they do not4' ,when 
,menexenus returns1 the serious         
dialectic begins4 ,he is described as   
'very pugnacious1' and we are thus      
prepared for the part which a mere youth
 takes in a difficult argument4 ,but    
,plato has not forgotten dramatic       
propriety1 and ,socrates proposes at    
last to refer the question to some older
 person4   ,,some ,,questions ,,relating

 ,,to ,,friendship4  ,the subject of    
friendship has a lower place in the     
modern than in the ancient world1 partly
 because a higher place is assigned by  
us to love and marriage4 ,the very      
meaning of the word has become slighter 
and more superficial2 it seems almost to
 be borrowed from the ancients1 and has 
nearly disappeared in modern treatises  
on ,moral ,philosophy4 ,the received    
examples of friendship are to be found  
chiefly among the ,greeks and ,romans4  
,hence the casuistical or other         
questions which arise out of the        
relations of friends have not often been
 considered seriously in modern times4  
,many of them will be found to be the   
same which are discussed in the ,lysis4 
,we may ask with ,socrates1 #a7 whether 
friendship is 'of similars or           
dissimilars1' or of both2 #b7 whether   
such a tie exists between the good only 
and for the sake of the good2 or #c7    
whether there may not be some peculiar  
attraction1 which draws together 'the   

neither good nor evil' for the sake of  
the good and because of the evil2 #d7   
whether friendship is always            
mutual1--may there not be a one-sided   
and unrequited friendship8 ,this        
question1 which1 like many others1 is   
only one of a laxer or stricter use of  
words1 seems to have greatly exercised  
the minds both of ,aristotle and ,plato4
  #e7 ,can we expect friendship to be   
permanent1 or must we acknowledge with  
,cicero1 ',nihil difficilius quam       
amicitiam usque ad extremum vitae       
permanere'8 ,is not friendship1 even    
more than love1 liable to be swayed by  
the caprices of fancy8 ,the person who  
pleased us most at first sight or upon a
 slight acquaintance1 when we have seen 
him again1 and under different          
circumstances1 may make a much less     
favourable impression on our minds4     
,young people swear 'eternal            
friendships1' but at these innocent     
perjuries their elders laugh4 ,no one   
forms a friendship with the intention of

 renouncing it2 yet in the course of a  
varied life it is practically certain   
that many changes will occur of feeling1
 opinion1 locality1 occupation1 fortune1
 which will divide us from some persons 
and unite us to others4 #f7 ,there is an
 ancient saying1 ,qui amicos amicum non 
habet4 ,but is not some less exclusive  
form of friendship better suited to the 
condition and nature of man8 ,and in    
those especially who have no family     
ties1 may not the feeling pass beyond   
one or a few1 and embrace all with whom 
we come into contact1 and1 perhaps in a 
few passionate and exalted natures1 all 
men everywhere8 #g7 ,the ancients had   
their three kinds of friendship1 'for   
the sake of the pleasant1 the useful1   
and the good3' is the last to be        
resolved into the two first2 or are the 
two first to be included in the last8   
,the subject was puzzling to them3 they 
could not say that friendship was only a
 quality1 or a relation1 or a virtue1 or
 a kind of virtue2 and they had not in  

the age of ,plato reached the point of  
regarding it1 like justice1 as a form or
 attribute of virtue4 ,they had another 
perplexity3 #h7 ,how could one of the   
noblest feelings of human nature be so  
near to one of the most detestable      
corruptions of it8 7,compare ,symposium2
 ,laws74  ,leaving the ,greek or ancient
 point of view1 we may regard the       
question in a more general way4         
,friendship is the union of two persons 
in mutual affection and remembrance of  
one another4 ,the friend can do for his 
friend what he cannot do for himself4   
,he can give him counsel in time of     
difficulty2 he can teach him 'to see    
himself as others see him'2 he can stand
 by him1 when all the world are against 
him2 he can gladden and enlighten him by
 his presence2 he 'can divide his       
sorrows1' he can 'double his joys2' he  
can anticipate his wants4 ,he will      
discover ways of helping him without    
creating a sense of his own superiority2
 he will find out his mental trials1 but

 only that he may minister to them4     
,among true friends jealousy has no     
place3 they do not complain of one      
another for making new friends1 or for  
not revealing some secret of their      
lives2 7in friendship too there must be 
reserves27 they do not intrude upon one 
another1 and they mutually rejoice in   
any good which happens to either of     
them1 though it may be to the loss of   
the other4 ,they may live apart and have
 little intercourse1 but when they meet1
 the old tie is as strong as            
ever--according to the common saying1   
they find one another always the same4  
,the greatest good of friendship is not 
daily intercourse1 for circumstances    
rarely admit of this2 but on the great  
occasions of life1 when the advice of a 
friend is needed1 then the word spoken  
in season about conduct1 about health1  
about marriage1 about business1--the    
letter written from a distance by a     
disinterested person who sees with      
clearer eyes may be of inestimable      

value4 ,when the heart is failing and   
despair is setting in1 then to hear the 
voice or grasp the hand of a friend1 in 
a shipwreck1 in a defeat1 in some other 
failure or misfortune1 may restore the  
necessary courage and composure to the  
paralysed and disordered mind1 and      
convert the feeble person into a hero2  
7compare ,symposium74  ,it is true that 
friendships are apt to be disappointing3
 either we expect too much from them2 or
 we are indolent and do not 'keep them  
in repair2' or being admitted to        
intimacy with another1 we see his faults
 too clearly and lose our respect for   
him2 and he loses his affection for us4 
,friendships may be too violent2 and    
they may be too sensitive4 ,the egotism 
of one of the parties may be too much   
for the other4 ,the word of counsel or  
sympathy has been uttered too           
obtrusively1 at the wrong time1 or in   
the wrong manner2 or the need of it has 
not been perceived until too late4 ',oh 
if he had only told me' has been the    

silent thought of many a troubled soul4 
,and some things have to be indicated   
rather than spoken1 because the very    
mention of them tends to disturb the    
equability of friendship4 ,the          
alienation of friends1 like many other  
human evils1 is commonly due to a want  
of tact and insight4 ,there is not      
enough of the ,scimus et hanc veniam    
petimusque damusque vicissim4 ,the sweet
 draught of sympathy is not             
inexhaustible2 and it tends to weaken   
the person who too freely partakes of   
it4 ,thus we see that there are many    
causes which impair the happiness of    
friends4  ,we may expect a friendship   
almost divine1 such as philosophers have
 sometimes dreamed of3 we find what is  
human4 ,the good of it is necessarily   
limited2 it does not take the place of  
marriage2 it affords rather a solace    
than an arm of support4 ,it had better  
not be based on pecuniary obligations2  
these more often mar than make a        
friendship4 ,it is most likely to be    

permanent when the two friends are equal
 and independent1 or when they are      
engaged together in some common work or 
have some public interest in common4 ,it
 exists among the bad or inferior sort  
of men almost as much as among the good2
 the bad and good1 and 'the neither bad 
nor good1' are drawn together in a      
strange manner by personal attachment4  
,the essence of it is loyalty1 without  
which it would cease to be friendship4  
,another question #i7 may be raised1    
whether friendship can safely exist     
between young persons of different      
sexes1 not connected by ties of         
relationship1 and without the thought of
 love or marriage2 whether1 again1 a    
wife or a husband should have any       
intimate friend1 besides his or her     
partner in marriage4 ,the answer to this
 latter question is rather perplexing1  
and would probably be different in      
different countries 7compare ,sympos474 
,while we do not deny that great good   
may result from such attachments1 for   

the mind may be drawn out and the       
character enlarged by them2 yet we feel 
also that they are attended with many   
dangers1 and that this ,romance of      
,heavenly ,love requires a strength1 a  
freedom from passion1 a self-control1   
which1 in youth especially1 are rarely  
to be found4 ,the propriety of such     
friendships must be estimated a good    
deal by the manner in which public      
opinion regards them2 they must be      
reconciled with the ordinary duties of  
life2 and they must be justified by the 
result4  ,yet another question1 #aj74   
,admitting that friendships cannot be   
always permanent1 we may ask when and   
upon what conditions should they be     
dissolved4 ,it would be futile to retain
 the name when the reality has ceased to
 be4 ,that two friends should part      
company whenever the relation between   
them begins to drag may be better for   
both of them4 ,but then arises the      
consideration1 how should these friends 
in youth or friends of the past regard  

or be regarded by one another8 ,they are
 parted1 but there still remain duties  
mutually owing by them4 ,they will not  
admit the world to share in their       
difference any more than in their       
friendship2 the memory of an old        
attachment1 like the memory of the dead1
 has a kind of sacredness for them on   
which they will not allow others to     
intrude4 ,neither1 if they were ever    
worthy to bear the name of friends1 will
 either of them entertain any enmity or 
dislike of the other who was once so    
much to him4 ,neither will he by        
'shadowed hint reveal' the secrets great
 or small which an unfortunate mistake  
has placed within his reach4 ,he who is 
of a noble mind will dwell upon his own 
faults rather than those of another1 and
 will be ready to take upon himself the 
blame of their separation4 ,he will feel
 pain at the loss of a friend2 and he   
will remember with gratitude his ancient
 kindness4 ,but he will not lightly     
renew a tie which has not been lightly  

broken444,these are a few of the        
,problems of ,friendship1 some of them  
suggested by the ,lysis1 others by      
modern life1 which he who wishes to make
 or keep a friend may profitably study4 
7,compare ,bacon1 ,essay on ,friendship2
 ,cic4 de ,amicitia47     ,,lysis1 ,,or 
,,friendship     ,,persons ,,of ,,the   
,,dialogue3  ,socrates1 who is the      
narrator1 ,menexenus1 ,hippothales1     
,lysis1 ,ctesippus4  ,,scene3 ,a        
newly-erected ,palaestra outside the    
walls of ,athens4   ,i was going from   
the ,academy straight to the ,lyceum1   
intending to take the outer road1 which 
is close under the wall4 ,when ,i came  
to the postern gate of the city1 which  
is by the fountain of ,panops1 ,i fell  
in with ,hippothales1 the son of        
,hieronymus1 and ,ctesippus the         
,paeanian1 and a company of young men   
who were standing with them4            
,hippothales1 seeing me approach1 asked 
whence ,i came and whither ,i was going4
  ,i am going1 ,i replied1 from the     

,academy straight to the ,lyceum4  ,then
 come straight to us1 he said1 and put  
in here2 you may as well4  ,who are you1
 ,i said2 and where am ,i to come8  ,he 
showed me an enclosed space and an open 
door over against the wall4 ,and there1 
he said1 is the building at which we all
 meet3 and a goodly company we are4     
,and what is this building1 ,i asked2   
and what sort of entertainment have you8
  ,the building1 he replied1 is a newly 
erected ,palaestra2 and the             
entertainment is generally conversation1
 to which you are welcome4  ,thank you1 
,i said2 and is there any teacher there8
  ,yes1 he said1 your old friend and    
admirer1 ,miccus4  ,indeed1 ,i replied2 
he is a very eminent professor4  ,are   
you disposed1 he said1 to go with me and
 see them8  ,yes1 ,i said2 but ,i should
 like to know first1 what is expected of
 me1 and who is the favourite among you8
  ,some persons have one favourite1     
,socrates1 and some another1 he said4   
,and who is yours8 ,i asked3 tell me    

that1 ,hippothales4  ,at this he        
blushed2 and ,i said to him1 ,o         
,hippothales1 thou son of ,hieronymus6  
do not say that you are1 or that you are
 not1 in love2 the confession is too    
late2 for ,i see that you are not only  
in love1 but are already far gone in    
your love4 ,simple and foolish as ,i am1
 the ,gods have given me the power of   
understanding affections of this kind4  
,whereupon he blushed more and more4    
,ctesippus said3 ,i like to see you     
blushing1 ,hippothales1 and hesitating  
to tell ,socrates the name2 when1 if he 
were with you but for a very short time1
 you would have plagued him to death by 
talking about nothing else4 ,indeed1    
,socrates1 he has literally deafened us1
 and stopped our ears with the praises  
of ,lysis2 and if he is a little        
intoxicated1 there is every likelihood  
that we may have our sleep murdered with
 a cry of ,lysis4 ,his performances in  
prose are bad enough1 but nothing at all
 in comparison with his verse2 and when 

he drenches us with his poems and other 
compositions1 it is really too bad2 and 
worse still is his manner of singing    
them to his love2 he has a voice which  
is truly appalling1 and we cannot help  
hearing him3 and now having a question  
put to him by you1 behold he is         
blushing4  ,who is ,lysis8 ,i said3 ,i  
suppose that he must be young2 for the  
name does not recall any one to me4     
,why1 he said1 his father being a very  
well-known man1 he retains his          
patronymic1 and is not as yet commonly  
called by his own name2 but1 although   
you do not know his name1 ,i am sure    
that you must know his face1 for that is
 quite enough to distinguish him4  ,but 
tell me whose son he is1 ,i said4  ,he  
is the eldest son of ,democrates1 of the
 deme of ,aexone4  ,ah1 ,hippothales1 ,i
 said2 what a noble and really perfect  
love you have found6 ,i wish that you   
would favour me with the exhibition     
which you have been making to the rest  
of the company1 and then ,i shall be    

able to judge whether you know what a   
lover ought to say about his love1      
either to the youth himself1 or to      
others4  ,nay1 ,socrates1 he said2 you  
surely do not attach any importance to  
what he is saying4  ,do you mean1 ,i    
said1 that you disown the love of the   
person whom he says that you love8  ,no2
 but ,i deny that ,i make verses or     
address compositions to him4  ,he is not
 in his right mind1 said ,ctesippus2 he 
is talking nonsense1 and is stark mad4  
,o ,hippothales1 ,i said1 if you have   
ever made any verses or songs in honour 
of your favourite1 ,i do not want to    
hear them2 but ,i want to know the      
purport of them1 that ,i may be able to 
judge of your mode of approaching your  
fair one4  ,ctesippus will be able to   
tell you1 he said2 for if1 as he avers1 
the sound of my words is always dinning 
in his ears1 he must have a very        
accurate knowledge and recollection of  
them4  ,yes1 indeed1 said ,ctesippus2 ,i
 know only too well2 and very ridiculous

 the tale is3 for although he is a      
lover1 and very devotedly in love1 he   
has nothing particular to talk about to 
his beloved which a child might not say4
 ,now is not that ridiculous8 ,he can   
only speak of the wealth of ,democrates1
 which the whole city celebrates1 and   
grandfather ,lysis1 and the other       
ancestors of the youth1 and their stud  
of horses1 and their victory at the     
,pythian games1 and at the ,isthmus1 and
 at ,nemea with four horses and single  
horses--these are the tales which he    
composes and repeats4 ,and there is     
greater twaddle still4 ,only the day    
before yesterday he made a poem in which
 he described the entertainment of      
,heracles1 who was a connexion of the   
family1 setting forth how in virtue of  
this relationship he was hospitably     
received by an ancestor of ,lysis2 this 
ancestor was himself begotten of ,zeus  
by the daughter of the founder of the   
deme4 ,and these are the sort of old    
wives' tales which he sings and recites 

to us1 and we are obliged to listen to  
him4  ,when ,i heard this1 ,i said3 ,o  
ridiculous ,hippothales6 how can you be 
making and singing hymns in honour of   
yourself before you have won8  ,but my  
songs and verses1 he said1 are not in   
honour of myself1 ,socrates4  ,you think
 not8 ,i said4  ,nay1 but what do you   
think8 he replied4  ,most assuredly1 ,i 
said1 those songs are all in your own   
honour2 for if you win your beautiful   
love1 your discourses and songs will be 
a glory to you1 and may be truly        
regarded as hymns of praise composed in 
honour of you who have conquered and won
 such a love2 but if he slips away from 
you1 the more you have praised him1 the 
more ridiculous you will look at having 
lost this fairest and best of blessings2
 and therefore the wise lover does not  
praise his beloved until he has won him1
 because he is afraid of accidents4     
,there is also another danger2 the fair1
 when any one praises or magnifies them1
 are filled with the spirit of pride and

 vain-glory4 ,do you not agree with me8 
,yes1 he said4  ,and the more           
vain-glorious they are1 the more        
difficult is the capture of them8  ,i   
believe you4  ,what should you say of a 
hunter who frightened away his prey1 and
 made the capture of the animals which  
he is hunting more difficult8  ,he would
 be a bad hunter1 undoubtedly4  ,yes2   
and if1 instead of soothing them1 he    
were to infuriate them with words and   
songs1 that would show a great want of  
wit3 do you not agree4  ,yes4  ,and now 
reflect1 ,hippothales1 and see whether  
you are not guilty of all these errors  
in writing poetry4 ,for ,i can hardly   
suppose that you will affirm a man to be
 a good poet who injures himself by his 
poetry4  ,assuredly not1 he said2 such a
 poet would be a fool4 ,and this is the 
reason why ,i take you into my counsels1
 ,socrates1 and ,i shall be glad of any 
further advice which you may have to    
offer4 ,will you tell me by what words  
or actions ,i may become endeared to my 

love8  ,that is not easy to determine1  
,i said2 but if you will bring your love
 to me1 and will let me talk with him1  
,i may perhaps be able to show you how  
to converse with him1 instead of singing
 and reciting in the fashion of which   
you are accused4  ,there will be no     
difficulty in bringing him1 he replied2 
if you will only go with ,ctesippus into
 the ,palaestra1 and sit down and talk1 
,i believe that he will come of his own 
accord2 for he is fond of listening1    
,socrates4 ,and as this is the festival 
of the ,hermaea1 the young men and boys 
are all together1 and there is no       
separation between them4 ,he will be    
sure to come3 but if he does not1       
,ctesippus with whom he is familiar1 and
 whose relation ,menexenus is his great 
friend1 shall call him4  ,that will be  
the way1 ,i said4 ,thereupon ,i led     
,ctesippus into the ,palaestra1 and the 
rest followed4  ,upon entering we found 
that the boys had just been sacrificing2
 and this part of the festival was      

nearly at an end4 ,they were all in     
their white array1 and games at dice    
were going on among them4 ,most of them 
were in the outer court amusing         
themselves2 but some were in a corner of
 the ,apodyterium playing at odd and    
even with a number of dice1 which they  
took out of little wicker baskets4      
,there was also a circle of lookers-on2 
among them was ,lysis4 ,he was standing 
with the other boys and youths1 having a
 crown upon his head1 like a fair       
vision1 and not less worthy of praise   
for his goodness than for his beauty4   
,we left them1 and went over to the     
opposite side of the room1 where1       
finding a quiet place1 we sat down2 and 
then we began to talk4 ,this attracted  
,lysis1 who was constantly turning round
 to look at us--he was evidently wanting
 to come to us4 ,for a time he hesitated
 and had not the courage to come alone2 
but first of all1 his friend ,menexenus1
 leaving his play1 entered the          
,palaestra from the court1 and when he  

saw ,ctesippus and myself1 was going to 
take a seat by us2 and then ,lysis1     
seeing him1 followed1 and sat down by   
his side2 and the other boys joined4 ,i 
should observe that ,hippothales1 when  
he saw the crowd1 got behind them1 where
 he thought that he would be out of     
sight of ,lysis1 lest he should anger   
him2 and there he stood and listened4   
,i turned to ,menexenus1 and said3 ,son 
of ,demophon1 which of you two youths is
 the elder8  ,that is a matter of       
dispute between us1 he said4  ,and which
 is the nobler8 ,is that also a matter  
of dispute8  ,yes1 certainly4  ,and     
another disputed point is1 which is the 
fairer8  ,the two boys laughed4  ,i     
shall not ask which is the richer of the
 two1 ,i said2 for you are friends1 are 
you not8  ,certainly1 they replied4     
,and friends have all things in common1 
so that one of you can be no richer than
 the other1 if you say truly that you   
are friends4  ,they assented4 ,i was    
about to ask which was the juster of the

 two1 and which was the wiser of the    
two2 but at this moment ,menexenus was  
called away by some one who came and    
said that the gymnastic-master wanted   
him4 ,i supposed that he had to offer   
sacrifice4 ,so he went away1 and ,i     
asked ,lysis some more questions4 ,i    
dare say1 ,lysis1 ,i said1 that your    
father and mother love you very much4   
,certainly1 he said4  ,and they would   
wish you to be perfectly happy4  ,yes4  
,but do you think that any one is happy 
who is in the condition of a slave1 and 
who cannot do what he likes8  ,i should 
think not indeed1 he said4  ,and if your
 father and mother love you1 and desire 
that you should be happy1 no one can    
doubt that they are very ready to       
promote your happiness4  ,certainly1 he 
replied4  ,and do they then permit you  
to do what you like1 and never rebuke   
you or hinder you from doing what you   
desire8  ,yes1 indeed1 ,socrates2 there 
are a great many things which they      
hinder me from doing4  ,what do you     

mean8 ,i said4 ,do they want you to be  
happy1 and yet hinder you from doing    
what you like8 for example1 if you want 
to mount one of your father's chariots1 
and take the reins at a race1 they will 
not allow you to do so--they will       
prevent you8  ,certainly1 he said1 they 
will not allow me to do so4  ,whom then 
will they allow8  ,there is a           
charioteer1 whom my father pays for     
driving4  ,and do they trust a hireling 
more than you8 and may he do what he    
likes with the horses8 and do they pay  
him for this8  ,they do4  ,but ,i dare  
say that you may take the whip and guide
 the mule-cart if you like2--they will  
permit that8  ,permit me6 indeed they   
will not4  ,then1 ,i said1 may no one   
use the whip to the mules8  ,yes1 he    
said1 the muleteer4  ,and is he a slave 
or a free man8  ,a slave1 he said4  ,and
 do they esteem a slave of more value   
than you who are their son8 ,and do they
 entrust their property to him rather   
than to you8 and allow him to do what he

 likes1 when they prohibit you8 ,answer 
me now3 ,are you your own master1 or do 
they not even allow that8  ,nay1 he     
said2 of course they do not allow it4   
,then you have a master8  ,yes1 my      
tutor2 there he is4  ,and is he a slave8
  ,to be sure2 he is our slave1 he      
replied4  ,surely1 ,i said1 this is a   
strange thing1 that a free man should be
 governed by a slave4 ,and what does he 
do with you8  ,he takes me to my        
teachers4  ,you do not mean to say that 
your teachers also rule over you8  ,of  
course they do4  ,then ,i must say that 
your father is pleased to inflict many  
lords and masters on you4 ,but at any   
rate when you go home to your mother1   
she will let you have your own way1 and 
will not interfere with your happiness2 
her wool1 or the piece of cloth which   
she is weaving1 are at your disposal3 ,i
 am sure that there is nothing to hinder
 you from touching her wooden spathe1 or
 her comb1 or any other of her spinning 
implements4  ,nay1 ,socrates1 he        

replied1 laughing2 not only does she    
hinder me1 but ,i should be beaten if ,i
 were to touch one of them4  ,well1 ,i  
said1 this is amazing4 ,and did you ever
 behave ill to your father or your      
mother8  ,no1 indeed1 he replied4  ,but 
why then are they so terribly anxious to
 prevent you from being happy1 and doing
 as you like8--keeping you all day long 
in subjection to another1 and1 in a     
word1 doing nothing which you desire2 so
 that you have no good1 as would appear1
 out of their great possessions1 which  
are under the control of anybody rather 
than of you1 and have no use of your own
 fair person1 which is tended and taken 
care of by another2 while you1 ,lysis1  
are master of nobody1 and can do        
nothing8  ,why1 he said1 ,socrates1 the 
reason is that ,i am not of age4  ,i    
doubt whether that is the real reason1  
,i said2 for ,i should imagine that your
 father ,democrates1 and your mother1 do
 permit you to do many things already1  
and do not wait until you are of age3   

for example1 if they want anything read 
or written1 you1 ,i presume1 would be   
the first person in the house who is    
summoned by them4  ,very true4  ,and you
 would be allowed to write or read the  
letters in any order which you please1  
or to take up the lyre and tune the     
notes1 and play with the fingers1 or    
strike with the plectrum1 exactly as you
 please1 and neither father nor mother  
would interfere with you4  ,that is     
true1 he said4  ,then what can be the   
reason1 ,lysis1 ,i said1 why they allow 
you to do the one and not the other8  ,i
 suppose1 he said1 because ,i understand
 the one1 and not the other4  ,yes1 my  
dear youth1 ,i said1 the reason is not  
any deficiency of years1 but a          
deficiency of knowledge2 and whenever   
your father thinks that you are wiser   
than he is1 he will instantly commit    
himself and his possessions to you4  ,i 
think so4  ,aye1 ,i said2 and about your
 neighbour1 too1 does not the same rule 
hold as about your father8 ,if he is    

satisfied that you know more of         
housekeeping than he does1 will he      
continue to administer his affairs      
himself1 or will he commit them to you8 
,i think that he will commit them to me4
  ,will not the ,athenian people1 too1  
entrust their affairs to you when they  
see that you have wisdom enough to      
manage them8  ,yes4  ,and oh6 let me put
 another case1 ,i said3 ,there is the   
great king1 and he has an eldest son1   
who is the ,prince of ,asia2--suppose   
that you and ,i go to him and establish 
to his satisfaction that we are better  
cooks than his son1 will he not entrust 
to us the prerogative of making soup1   
and putting in anything that we like    
while the pot is boiling1 rather than to
 the ,prince of ,asia1 who is his son8  
,to us1 clearly4  ,and we shall be      
allowed to throw in salt by handfuls1   
whereas the son will not be allowed to  
put in as much as he can take up between
 his fingers8  ,of course4  ,or suppose 
again that the son has bad eyes1 will he

 allow him1 or will he not allow him1 to
 touch his own eyes if he thinks that he
 has no knowledge of medicine8  ,he will
 not allow him4  ,whereas1 if he        
supposes us to have a knowledge of      
medicine1 he will allow us to do what we
 like with him--even to open the eyes   
wide and sprinkle ashes upon them1      
because he supposes that we know what is
 best8  ,that is true4  ,and everything 
in which we appear to him to be wiser   
than himself or his son he will commit  
to us8  ,that is very true1 ,socrates1  
he replied4  ,then now1 my dear ,lysis1 
,i said1 you perceive that in things    
which we know every one will trust      
us1--,hellenes and barbarians1 men and  
women1--and we may do as we please about
 them1 and no one will like to interfere
 with us2 we shall be free1 and masters 
of others2 and these things will be     
really ours1 for we shall be benefited  
by them4 ,but in things of which we have
 no understanding1 no one will trust us 
to do as seems good to us--they will    

hinder us as far as they can2 and not   
only strangers1 but father and mother1  
and the friend1 if there be one1 who is 
dearer still1 will also hinder us2 and  
we shall be subject to others2 and these
 things will not be ours1 for we shall  
not be benefited by them4 ,do you agree8
  ,he assented4  ,and shall we be       
friends to others1 and will any others  
love us1 in as far as we are useless to 
them8  ,certainly not4  ,neither can    
your father or mother love you1 nor can 
anybody love anybody else1 in so far as 
they are useless to them8  ,no4  ,and   
therefore1 my boy1 if you are wise1 all 
men will be your friends and kindred1   
for you will be useful and good2 but if 
you are not wise1 neither father1 nor   
mother1 nor kindred1 nor any one else1  
will be your friends4 ,and in matters of
 which you have as yet no knowledge1 can
 you have any conceit of knowledge8     
,that is impossible1 he replied4  ,and  
you1 ,lysis1 if you require a teacher1  
have not yet attained to wisdom4  ,true4

  ,and therefore you are not conceited1 
having nothing of which to be conceited4
  ,indeed1 ,socrates1 ,i think not4     
,when ,i heard him say this1 ,i turned  
to ,hippothales1 and was very nearly    
making a blunder1 for ,i was going to   
say to him3 ,that is the way1           
,hippothales1 in which you should talk  
to your beloved1 humbling and lowering  
him1 and not as you do1 puffing him up  
and spoiling him4 ,but ,i saw that he   
was in great excitement and confusion at
 what had been said1 and ,i remembered  
that1 although he was in the            
neighbourhood1 he did not want to be    
seen by ,lysis2 so upon second thoughts 
,i refrained4  ,in the meantime         
,menexenus came back and sat down in his
 place by ,lysis2 and ,lysis1 in a      
childish and affectionate manner1       
whispered privately in my ear1 so that  
,menexenus should not hear3 ,do1        
,socrates1 tell ,menexenus what you have
 been telling me4  ,suppose that you    
tell him yourself1 ,lysis1 ,i replied2  

for ,i am sure that you were attending4 
,certainly1 he replied4  ,try1 then1 to 
remember the words1 and be as exact as  
you can in repeating them to him1 and if
 you have forgotten anything1 ask me    
again the next time that you see me4  ,i
 will be sure to do so1 ,socrates2 but  
go on telling him something new1 and let
 me hear1 as long as ,i am allowed to   
stay4  ,i certainly cannot refuse1 ,i   
said1 since you ask me2 but then1 as you
 know1 ,menexenus is very pugnacious1   
and therefore you must come to the      
rescue if he attempts to upset me4      
,yes1 indeed1 he said2 he is very       
pugnacious1 and that is the reason why  
,i want you to argue with him4  ,that ,i
 may make a fool of myself8  ,no1       
indeed1 he said2 but ,i want you to put 
him down4  ,that is no easy matter1 ,i  
replied2 for he is a terrible fellow--a 
pupil of ,ctesippus4 ,and there is      
,ctesippus himself3 do you see him8     
,never mind1 ,socrates1 you shall argue 
with him4  ,well1 ,i suppose that ,i    

must1 ,i replied4  ,hereupon ,ctesippus 
complained that we were talking in      
secret1 and keeping the feast to        
ourselves4  ,i shall be happy1 ,i said1 
to let you have a share4 ,here is       
,lysis1 who does not understand         
something that ,i was saying1 and wants 
me to ask ,menexenus1 who1 as he thinks1
 is likely to know4  ,and why do you not
 ask him8 he said4  ,very well1 ,i said1
 ,i will2 and do you1 ,menexenus1       
answer4 ,but first ,i must tell you that
 ,i am one who from my childhood upward 
have set my heart upon a certain thing4 
,all people have their fancies2 some    
desire horses1 and others dogs2 and some
 are fond of gold1 and others of honour4
 ,now1 ,i have no violent desire of any 
of these things2 but ,i have a passion  
for friends2 and ,i would rather have a 
good friend than the best cock or quail 
in the world3 ,i would even go further1 
and say the best horse or dog4 ,yea1 by 
the dog of ,egypt1 ,i should greatly    
prefer a real friend to all the gold of 

,darius1 or even to ,darius himself3 ,i 
am such a lover of friends as that4 ,and
 when ,i see you and ,lysis1 at your    
early age1 so easily possessed of this  
treasure1 and so soon1 he of you1 and   
you of him1 ,i am amazed and delighted1 
seeing that ,i myself1 although ,i am   
now advanced in years1 am so far from   
having made a similar acquisition1 that 
,i do not even know in what way a friend
 is acquired4 ,but ,i want to ask you a 
question about this1 for you have       
experience3 tell me then1 when one loves
 another1 is the lover or the beloved   
the friend2 or may either be the friend8
  ,either may1 ,i should think1 be the  
friend of either4  ,do you mean1 ,i     
said1 that if only one of them loves the
 other1 they are mutual friends8  ,yes1 
he said2 that is my meaning4  ,but what 
if the lover is not loved in return8    
which is a very possible case4  ,yes4   
,or is1 perhaps1 even hated8 which is a 
fancy which sometimes is entertained by 
lovers respecting their beloved4        

,nothing can exceed their love2 and yet 
they imagine either that they are not   
loved in return1 or that they are hated4
 ,is not that true8  ,yes1 he said1     
quite true4  ,in that case1 the one     
loves1 and the other is loved8  ,yes4   
,then which is the friend of which8 ,is 
the lover the friend of the beloved1    
whether he be loved in return1 or hated2
 or is the beloved the friend2 or is    
there no friendship at all on either    
side1 unless they both love one another8
  ,there would seem to be none at all4  
,then this notion is not in accordance  
with our previous one4 ,we were saying  
that both were friends1 if one only     
loved2 but now1 unless they both love1  
neither is a friend4  ,that appears to  
be true4  ,then nothing which does not  
love in return is beloved by a lover8   
,i think not4  ,then they are not lovers
 of horses1 whom the horses do not love 
in return2 nor lovers of quails1 nor of 
dogs1 nor of wine1 nor of gymnastic     
exercises1 who have no return of love2  

no1 nor of wisdom1 unless wisdom loves  
them in return4 ,or shall we say that   
they do love them1 although they are not
 beloved by them2 and that the poet was 
wrong who sings--  ',happy the man to   
whom his children are dear1 and steeds  
having single hoofs1 and dogs of chase1 
and the stranger of another land'8  ,i  
do not think that he was wrong4  ,you   
think that he is right8  ,yes4  ,then1  
,menexenus1 the conclusion is1 that what
 is beloved1 whether loving or hating1  
may be dear to the lover of it3 for     
example1 very young children1 too young 
to love1 or even hating their father or 
mother when they are punished by them1  
are never dearer to them than at the    
time when they are being hated by them4 
,i think that what you say is true4     
,and1 if so1 not the lover1 but the     
beloved1 is the friend or dear one8     
,yes4  ,and the hated one1 and not the  
hater1 is the enemy8  ,clearly4  ,then  
many men are loved by their enemies1 and
 hated by their friends1 and are the    

friends of their enemies1 and the       
enemies of their friends4 ,yet how      
absurd1 my dear friend1 or indeed       
impossible is this paradox of a man     
being an enemy to his friend or a friend
 to his enemy4  ,i quite agree1         
,socrates1 in what you say4  ,but if    
this cannot be1 the lover will be the   
friend of that which is loved8  ,true4  
,and the hater will be the enemy of that
 which is hated8  ,certainly4  ,yet we  
must acknowledge in this1 as in the     
preceding instance1 that a man may be   
the friend of one who is not his friend1
 or who may be his enemy1 when he loves 
that which does not love him or which   
even hates him4 ,and he may be the enemy
 of one who is not his enemy1 and is    
even his friend3 for example1 when he   
hates that which does not hate him1 or  
which even loves him4  ,that appears to 
be true4  ,but if the lover is not a    
friend1 nor the beloved a friend1 nor   
both together1 what are we to say8 ,whom
 are we to call friends to one another8 

,do any remain8  ,indeed1 ,socrates1 ,i 
cannot find any4  ,but1 ,o ,menexenus6  
,i said1 may we not have been altogether
 wrong in our conclusions8  ,i am sure  
that we have been wrong1 ,socrates1 said
 ,lysis4 ,and he blushed as he spoke1   
the words seeming to come from his lips 
involuntarily1 because his whole mind   
was taken up with the argument2 there   
was no mistaking his attentive look     
while he was listening4  ,i was pleased 
at the interest which was shown by      
,lysis1 and ,i wanted to give ,menexenus
 a rest1 so ,i turned to him and said1  
,i think1 ,lysis1 that what you say is  
true1 and that1 if we had been right1 we
 should never have gone so far wrong2   
let us proceed no further in this       
direction 7for the road seems to be     
getting troublesome71 but take the other
 path into which we turned1 and see what
 the poets have to say2 for they are to 
us in a manner the fathers and authors  
of wisdom1 and they speak of friends in 
no light or trivial manner1 but ,god    

himself1 as they say1 makes them and    
draws them to one another2 and this they
 express1 if ,i am not mistaken1 in the 
following words3--  ',god is ever       
drawing like towards like1 and making   
them acquainted4'  ,i dare say that you 
have heard those words4  ,yes1 he said2 
,i have4  ,and have you not also met    
with the treatises of philosophers who  
say that like must love like8 they are  
the people who argue and write about    
nature and the universe4  ,very true1 he
 replied4  ,and are they right in saying
 this8  ,they may be4  ,perhaps1 ,i     
said1 about half1 or possibly1          
altogether1 right1 if their meaning were
 rightly apprehended by us4 ,for the    
more a bad man has to do with a bad man1
 and the more nearly he is brought into 
contact with him1 the more he will be   
likely to hate him1 for he injures him2 
and injurer and injured cannot be       
friends4 ,is not that true8  ,yes1 he   
said4  ,then one half of the saying is  
untrue1 if the wicked are like one      

another8  ,that is true4  ,but the real 
meaning of the saying1 as ,i imagine1   
is1 that the good are like one another1 
and friends to one another2 and that the
 bad1 as is often said of them1 are     
never at unity with one another or with 
themselves2 for they are passionate and 
restless1 and anything which is at      
variance and enmity with itself is not  
likely to be in union or harmony with   
any other thing4 ,do you not agree8     
,yes1 ,i do4  ,then1 my friend1 those   
who say that the like is friendly to the
 like mean to intimate1 if ,i rightly   
apprehend them1 that the good only is   
the friend of the good1 and of him only2
 but that the evil never attains to any 
real friendship1 either with good or    
evil4 ,do you agree8  ,he nodded assent4
  ,then now we know how to answer the   
question ',who are friends8' for the    
argument declares ',that the good are   
friends4'  ,yes1 he said1 that is true4 
,yes1 ,i replied2 and yet ,i am not     
quite satisfied with this answer4 ,by   

heaven1 and shall ,i tell you what ,i   
suspect8 ,i will4 ,assuming that like1  
inasmuch as he is like1 is the friend of
 like1 and useful to him--or rather let 
me try another way of putting the       
matter3 ,can like do any good or harm to
 like which he could not do to himself1 
or suffer anything from his like which  
he would not suffer from himself8 ,and  
if neither can be of any use to the     
other1 how can they be loved by one     
another8 ,can they now8  ,they cannot4  
,and can he who is not loved be a       
friend8  ,certainly not4  ,but say that 
the like is not the friend of the like  
in so far as he is like2 still the good 
may be the friend of the good in so far 
as he is good8  ,true4  ,but then again1
 will not the good1 in so far as he is  
good1 be sufficient for himself8        
,certainly he will4 ,and he who is      
sufficient wants nothing--that is       
implied in the word sufficient4  ,of    
course not4  ,and he who wants nothing  
will desire nothing8  ,he will not4     

,neither can he love that which he does 
not desire8  ,he cannot4  ,and he who   
loves not is not a lover or friend8     
,clearly not4  ,what place then is there
 for friendship1 if1 when absent1 good  
men have no need of one another 7for    
even when alone they are sufficient for 
themselves71 and when present have no   
use of one another8 ,how can such       
persons ever be induced to value one    
another8  ,they cannot4  ,and friends   
they cannot be1 unless they value one   
another8  ,very true4  ,but see now1    
,lysis1 whether we are not being        
deceived in all this--are we not indeed 
entirely wrong8  ,how so8 he replied4   
,have ,i not heard some one say1 as ,i  
just now recollect1 that the like is the
 greatest enemy of the like1 the good of
 the good8--,yes1 and he quoted the     
authority of ,hesiod1 who says3         
',potter quarrels with potter1 bard with
 bard1 ,beggar with beggar2'  and of all
 other things he affirmed1 in like      
manner1 ',that of necessity the most    

like are most full of envy1 strife1 and 
hatred of one another1 and the most     
unlike1 of friendship4 ,for the poor man
 is compelled to be the friend of the   
rich1 and the weak requires the aid of  
the strong1 and the sick man of the     
physician2 and every one who is         
ignorant1 has to love and court him who 
knows4' ,and indeed he went on to say in
 grandiloquent language1 that the idea  
of friendship existing between similars 
is not the truth1 but the very reverse  
of the truth1 and that the most opposed 
are the most friendly2 for that         
everything desires not like but that    
which is most unlike3 for example1 the  
dry desires the moist1 the cold the hot1
 the bitter the sweet1 the sharp the    
blunt1 the void the full1 the full the  
void1 and so of all other things2 for   
the opposite is the food of the         
opposite1 whereas like receives nothing 
from like4 ,and ,i thought that he who  
said this was a charming man1 and that  
he spoke well4 ,what do the rest of you 

say8  ,i should say1 at first hearing1  
that he is right1 said ,menexenus4      
,then we are to say that the greatest   
friendship is of opposites8  ,exactly4  
,yes1 ,menexenus2 but will not that be a
 monstrous answer8 and will not the     
all-wise eristics be down upon us in    
triumph1 and ask1 fairly enough1 whether
 love is not the very opposite of hate2 
and what answer shall we make to        
them--must we not admit that they speak 
the truth8  ,we must4  ,they will then  
proceed to ask whether the enemy is the 
friend of the friend1 or the friend the 
friend of the enemy8  ,neither1 he      
replied4  ,well1 but is a just man the  
friend of the unjust1 or the temperate  
of the intemperate1 or the good of the  
bad8  ,i do not see how that is         
possible4  ,and yet1 ,i said1 if        
friendship goes by contraries1 the      
contraries must be friends4  ,they must4
  ,then neither like and like nor unlike
 and unlike are friends4  ,i suppose    
not4  ,and yet there is a further       

consideration3 may not all these notions
 of friendship be erroneous8 but may not
 that which is neither good nor evil    
still in some cases be the friend of the
 good8  ,how do you mean8 he said4  ,why
 really1 ,i said1 the truth is that ,i  
do not know2 but my head is dizzy with  
thinking of the argument1 and therefore 
,i hazard the conjecture1 that 'the     
beautiful is the friend1' as the old    
proverb says4 ,beauty is certainly a    
soft1 smooth1 slippery thing1 and       
therefore of a nature which easily slips
 in and permeates our souls4 ,for ,i    
affirm that the good is the beautiful4  
,you will agree to that8  ,yes4  ,this  
,i say from a sort of notion that what  
is neither good nor evil is the friend  
of the beautiful and the good1 and ,i   
will tell you why ,i am inclined to     
think so3 ,i assume that there are three
 principles--the good1 the bad1 and that
 which is neither good nor bad4 ,you    
would agree--would you not8  ,i agree4  
,and neither is the good the friend of  

the good1 nor the evil of the evil1 nor 
the good of the evil2--these            
alternatives are excluded by the        
previous argument2 and therefore1 if    
there be such a thing as friendship or  
love at all1 we must infer that what is 
neither good nor evil must be the       
friend1 either of the good1 or of that  
which is neither good nor evil1 for     
nothing can be the friend of the bad4   
,true4  ,but neither can like be the    
friend of like1 as we were just now     
saying4  ,true4  ,and if so1 that which 
is neither good nor evil can have no    
friend which is neither good nor evil4  
,clearly not4  ,then the good alone is  
the friend of that only which is neither
 good nor evil4  ,that may be assumed to
 be certain4  ,and does not this seem to
 put us in the right way8 ,just remark1 
that the body which is in health        
requires neither medical nor any other  
aid1 but is well enough2 and the healthy
 man has no love of the physician1      
because he is in health4  ,he has none4 

,but the sick loves him1 because he is  
sick8  ,certainly4  ,and sickness is an 
evil1 and the art of medicine a good and
 useful thing8  ,yes4  ,but the human   
body1 regarded as a body1 is neither    
good nor evil8  ,true4  ,and the body is
 compelled by reason of disease to court
 and make friends of the art of         
medicine8  ,yes4  ,then that which is   
neither good nor evil becomes the friend
 of good1 by reason of the presence of  
evil8  ,so we may infer4  ,and clearly  
this must have happened before that     
which was neither good nor evil had     
become altogether corrupted with the    
element of evil--if itself had become   
evil it would not still desire and love 
the good2 for1 as we were saying1 the   
evil cannot be the friend of the good4  
,impossible4  ,further1 ,i must observe 
that some substances are assimilated    
when others are present with them2 and  
there are some which are not            
assimilated3 take1 for example1 the case
 of an ointment or colour which is put  

on another substance4  ,very good4  ,in 
such a case1 is the substance which is  
anointed the same as the colour or      
ointment8  ,what do you mean8 he said4  
,this is what ,i mean3 ,suppose that ,i 
were to cover your auburn locks with    
white lead1 would they be really white1 
or would they only appear to be white8  
,they would only appear to be white1 he 
replied4  ,and yet whiteness would be   
present in them8  ,true4  ,but that     
would not make them at all the more     
white1 notwithstanding the presence of  
white in them--they would not be white  
any more than black8  ,no4  ,but when   
old age infuses whiteness into them1    
then they become assimilated1 and are   
white by the presence of white4         
,certainly4  ,now ,i want to know       
whether in all cases a substance is     
assimilated by the presence of another  
substance2 or must the presence be after
 a peculiar sort8  ,the latter1 he said4
  ,then that which is neither good nor  
evil may be in the presence of evil1 but

 not as yet evil1 and that has happened 
before now8  ,yes4  ,and when anything  
is in the presence of evil1 not being as
 yet evil1 the presence of good arouses 
the desire of good in that thing2 but   
the presence of evil1 which makes a     
thing evil1 takes away the desire and   
friendship of the good2 for that which  
was once both good and evil has now     
become evil only1 and the good was      
supposed to have no friendship with the 
evil8  ,none4  ,and therefore we say    
that those who are already wise1 whether
 ,gods or men1 are no longer lovers of  
wisdom2 nor can they be lovers of wisdom
 who are ignorant to the extent of being
 evil1 for no evil or ignorant person is
 a lover of wisdom4 ,there remain those 
who have the misfortune to be ignorant1 
but are not yet hardened in their       
ignorance1 or void of understanding1 and
 do not as yet fancy that they know what
 they do not know3 and therefore those  
who are the lovers of wisdom are as yet 
neither good nor bad4 ,but the bad do   

not love wisdom any more than the good2 
for1 as we have already seen1 neither is
 unlike the friend of unlike1 nor like  
of like4 ,you remember that8  ,yes1 they
 both said4  ,and so1 ,lysis and        
,menexenus1 we have discovered the      
nature of friendship--there can be no   
doubt of it3 ,friendship is the love    
which by reason of the presence of evil 
the neither good nor evil has of the    
good1 either in the soul1 or in the     
body1 or anywhere4  ,they both agreed   
and entirely assented1 and for a moment 
,i rejoiced and was satisfied like a    
huntsman just holding fast his prey4    
,but then a most unaccountable suspicion
 came across me1 and ,i felt that the   
conclusion was untrue4 ,i was pained1   
and said1 ,alas6 ,lysis and ,menexenus1 
,i am afraid that we have been grasping 
at a shadow only4  ,why do you say so8  
said ,menexenus4  ,i am afraid1 ,i said1
 that the argument about friendship is  
false3 arguments1 like men1 are often   
pretenders4  ,how do you mean8 he asked4

  ,well1 ,i said2 look at the matter in 
this way3 a friend is the friend of some
 one2 is he not8  ,certainly he is4     
,and has he a motive and object in being
 a friend1 or has he no motive and      
object8  ,he has a motive and object4   
,and is the object which makes him a    
friend1 dear to him1 or neither dear nor
 hateful to him8  ,i do not quite follow
 you1 he said4  ,i do not wonder at     
that1 ,i said4 ,but perhaps1 if ,i put  
the matter in another way1 you will be  
able to follow me1 and my own meaning   
will be clearer to myself4 ,the sick    
man1 as ,i was just now saying1 is the  
friend of the physician--is he not8     
,yes4  ,and he is the friend of the     
physician because of disease1 and for   
the sake of health8  ,yes4  ,and disease
 is an evil8  ,certainly4  ,and what of 
health8 ,i said4 ,is that good or evil1 
or neither8  ,good1 he replied4  ,and we
 were saying1 ,i believe1 that the body 
being neither good nor evil1 because of 
disease1 that is to say because of evil1

 is the friend of medicine1 and medicine
 is a good3 and medicine has entered    
into this friendship for the sake of    
health1 and health is a good4  ,true4   
,and is health a friend1 or not a       
friend8  ,a friend4  ,and disease is an 
enemy8  ,yes4  ,then that which is      
neither good nor evil is the friend of  
the good because of the evil and        
hateful1 and for the sake of the good   
and the friend8  ,clearly4  ,then the   
friend is a friend for the sake of the  
friend1 and because of the enemy8  ,that
 is to be inferred4  ,then at this      
point1 my boys1 let us take heed1 and be
 on our guard against deceptions4 ,i    
will not again repeat that the friend is
 the friend of the friend1 and the like 
of the like1 which has been declared by 
us to be an impossibility2 but1 in order
 that this new statement may not delude 
us1 let us attentively examine another  
point1 which ,i will proceed to explain3
 ,medicine1 as we were saying1 is a     
friend1 or dear to us for the sake of   

health8  ,yes4  ,and health is also     
dear8  ,certainly4  ,and if dear1 then  
dear for the sake of something8  ,yes4  
,and surely this object must also be    
dear1 as is implied in our previous     
admissions8  ,yes4  ,and that something 
dear involves something else dear8      
,yes4  ,but then1 proceeding in this    
way1 shall we not arrive at some first  
principle of friendship or dearness     
which is not capable of being referred  
to any other1 for the sake of which1 as 
we maintain1 all other things are dear1 
and1 having there arrived1 we shall     
stop8  ,true4  ,my fear is that all     
those other things1 which1 as we say1   
are dear for the sake of another1 are   
illusions and deceptions only1 but where
 that first principle is1 there is the  
true ideal of friendship4 ,let me put   
the matter thus3 ,suppose the case of a 
great treasure 7this may be a son1 who  
is more precious to his father than all 
his other treasures72 would not the     
father1 who values his son above all    

things1 value other things also for the 
sake of his son8 ,i mean1 for instance1 
if he knew that his son had drunk       
hemlock1 and the father thought that    
wine would save him1 he would value the 
wine8  ,he would4  ,and also the vessel 
which contains the wine8  ,certainly4   
,but does he therefore value the three  
measures of wine1 or the earthen vessel 
which contains them1 equally with his   
son8 ,is not this rather the true state 
of the case8 ,all his anxiety has regard
 not to the means which are provided for
 the sake of an object1 but to the      
object for the sake of which they are   
provided4 ,and although we may often say
 that gold and silver are highly valued 
by us1 that is not the truth2 for there 
is a further object1 whatever it may be1
 which we value most of all1 and for the
 sake of which gold and all our other   
possessions are acquired by us4 ,am ,i  
not right8  ,yes1 certainly4  ,and may  
not the same be said of the friend8     
,that which is only dear to us for the  

sake of something else is improperly    
said to be dear1 but the truly dear is  
that in which all these so-called dear  
friendships terminate4  ,that1 he said1 
appears to be true4  ,and the truly dear
 or ultimate principle of friendship is 
not for the sake of any other or further
 dear4  ,true4  ,then we have done with 
the notion that friendship has any      
further object4 ,may we then infer that 
the good is the friend8  ,i think so4   
,and the good is loved for the sake of  
the evil8 ,let me put the case in this  
way3 ,suppose that of the three         
principles1 good1 evil1 and that which  
is neither good nor evil1 there remained
 only the good and the neutral1 and that
 evil went far away1 and in no way      
affected soul or body1 nor ever at all  
that class of things which1 as we say1  
are neither good nor evil in            
themselves2--would the good be of any   
use1 or other than useless to us8 ,for  
if there were nothing to hurt us any    
longer1 we should have no need of       

anything that would do us good4 ,then   
would be clearly seen that we did but   
love and desire the good because of the 
evil1 and as the remedy of the evil1    
which was the disease2 but if there had 
been no disease1 there would have been  
no need of a remedy4 ,is not this the   
nature of the good--to be loved by us   
who are placed between the two1 because 
of the evil8 but there is no use in the 
good for its own sake4  ,i suppose not4 
,then the final principle of friendship1
 in which all other friendships         
terminated1 those1 ,i mean1 which are   
relatively dear and for the sake of     
something else1 is of another and a     
different nature from them4 ,for they   
are called dear because of another dear 
or friend4 ,but with the true friend or 
dear1 the case is quite the reverse2 for
 that is proved to be dear because of   
the hated1 and if the hated were away it
 would be no longer dear4  ,very true1  
he replied3 at any rate not if our      
present view holds good4  ,but1 oh6 will

 you tell me1 ,i said1 whether if evil  
were to perish1 we should hunger any    
more1 or thirst any more1 or have any   
similar desire8 ,or may we suppose that 
hunger will remain while men and animals
 remain1 but not so as to be hurtful8   
,and the same of thirst and the other   
desires1--that they will remain1 but    
will not be evil because evil has       
perished8 ,or rather shall ,i say1 that 
to ask what either will be then or will 
not be is ridiculous1 for who knows8    
,this we do know1 that in our present   
condition hunger may injure us1 and may 
also benefit us3--,is not that true8    
,yes4  ,and in like manner thirst or any
 similar desire may sometimes be a good 
and sometimes an evil to us1 and        
sometimes neither one nor the other8    
,to be sure4  ,but is there any reason  
why1 because evil perishes1 that which  
is not evil should perish with it8      
,none4  ,then1 even if evil perishes1   
the desires which are neither good nor  
evil will remain8  ,clearly they will4  

,and must not a man love that which he  
desires and affects8  ,he must4  ,then1 
even if evil perishes1 there may still  
remain some elements of love or         
friendship8  ,yes4  ,but not if evil is 
the cause of friendship3 for in that    
case nothing will be the friend of any  
other thing after the destruction of    
evil2 for the effect cannot remain when 
the cause is destroyed4  ,true4  ,and   
have we not admitted already that the   
friend loves something for a reason8 and
 at the time of making the admission we 
were of opinion that the neither good   
nor evil loves the good because of the  
evil8  ,very true4  ,but now our view is
 changed1 and we conceive that there    
must be some other cause of friendship8 
,i suppose so4  ,may not the truth be   
rather1 as we were saying just now1 that
 desire is the cause of friendship2 for 
that which desires is dear to that which
 is desired at the time of desiring it8 
and may not the other theory have been  
only a long story about nothing8        

,likely enough4  ,but surely1 ,i said1  
he who desires1 desires that of which he
 is in want8  ,yes4  ,and that of which 
he is in want is dear to him8  ,true4   
,and he is in want of that of which he  
is deprived8  ,certainly4  ,then love1  
and desire1 and friendship would appear 
to be of the natural or congenial4      
,such1 ,lysis and ,menexenus1 is the    
inference4  ,they assented4  ,then if   
you are friends1 you must have natures  
which are congenial to one another8     
,certainly1 they both said4  ,and ,i    
say1 my boys1 that no one who loves or  
desires another would ever have loved or
 desired or affected him1 if he had not 
been in some way congenial to him1      
either in his soul1 or in his character1
 or in his manners1 or in his form4     
,yes1 yes1 said ,menexenus4 ,but ,lysis 
was silent4  ,then1 ,i said1 the        
conclusion is1 that what is of a        
congenial nature must be loved4  ,it    
follows1 he said4  ,then the lover1 who 
is true and no counterfeit1 must of     

necessity be loved by his love4  ,lysis 
and ,menexenus gave a faint assent to   
this2 and ,hippothales changed into all 
manner of colours with delight4  ,here1 
intending to revise the argument1 ,i    
said3 ,can we point out any difference  
between the congenial and the like8 ,for
 if that is possible1 then ,i think1    
,lysis and ,menexenus1 there may be some
 sense in our argument about friendship4
 ,but if the congenial is only the like1
 how will you get rid of the other      
argument1 of the uselessness of like to 
like in as far as they are like2 for to 
say that what is useless is dear1 would 
be absurd8 ,suppose1 then1 that we agree
 to distinguish between the congenial   
and the like--in the intoxication of    
argument1 that may perhaps be allowed4  
,very true4  ,and shall we further say  
that the good is congenial1 and the evil
 uncongenial to every one8 ,or again    
that the evil is congenial to the evil1 
and the good to the good2 and that which
 is neither good nor evil to that which 

is neither good nor evil8  ,they agreed 
to the latter alternative4  ,then1 my   
boys1 we have again fallen into the old 
discarded error2 for the unjust will be 
the friend of the unjust1 and the bad of
 the bad1 as well as the good of the    
good4  ,that appears to be the result4  
,but again1 if we say that the congenial
 is the same as the good1 in that case  
the good and he only will be the friend 
of the good4  ,true4  ,but that too was 
a position of ours which1 as you will   
remember1 has been already refuted by   
ourselves4  ,we remember4  ,then what is
 to be done8 ,or rather is there        
anything to be done8 ,i can only1 like  
the wise men who argue in courts1 sum up
 the arguments3--,if neither the        
beloved1 nor the lover1 nor the like1   
nor the unlike1 nor the good1 nor the   
congenial1 nor any other of whom we     
spoke--for there were such a number of  
them that ,i cannot remember all--if    
none of these are friends1 ,i know not  
what remains to be said4  ,here ,i was  

going to invite the opinion of some     
older person1 when suddenly we were     
interrupted by the tutors of ,lysis and 
,menexenus1 who came upon us like an    
evil apparition with their brothers1 and
 bade them go home1 as it was getting   
late4 ,at first1 we and the by-standers 
drove them off2 but afterwards1 as they 
would not mind1 and only went on        
shouting in their barbarous dialect1 and
 got angry1 and kept calling the        
boys--they appeared to us to have been  
drinking rather too much at the         
,hermaea1 which made them difficult to  
manage--we fairly gave way and broke up 
the company4  ,i said1 however1 a few   
words to the boys at parting3 ,o        
,menexenus and ,lysis1 how ridiculous   
that you two boys1 and ,i1 an old boy1  
who would fain be one of you1 should    
imagine ourselves to be friends--this is
 what the by-standers will go away and  
say--and as yet we have not been able to
 discover what is a friend6