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99999999999999999999  ,,time ,,when     
,,proofing ,,methods ,,and ,,tools      
,,were ,,not ,,well ,,developed4 ,,there
 ,,is ,,an ,,improved ,,edition ,,of    
,,this ,,title ,,which ,,may ,,be       
,,viewed ,,at ,,ebook 7#eebja7          
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99999999999999999999           ,,the    
,,republic  by ,plato  7#cfj ,b4,c47    
translated by ,benjamin ,jowett         
,,the ,,introduction  ,,the ,republic of
 ,plato is the longest of his works with
 the exception of the ,laws1 and is     
certainly the greatest of them4  ,there 
are nearer approaches to modern         
metaphysics in the ,philebus and in the 
,sophist2 the ,politicus or ,statesman  
is more ideal2 the form and institutions
 of the ,state are more clearly drawn   
out in the ,laws2 as works of art1 the  

,symposium and the ,protagoras are of   
higher excellence4  ,but no other       
,dialogue of ,plato has the same        
largeness of view and the same          
perfection of style2 no other shows an  
equal knowledge of the world1 or        
contains more of those thoughts which   
are new as well as old1 and not of one  
age only but of all4  ,nowhere in ,plato
 is there a deeper irony or a greater   
wealth of humor or imagery1 or more     
dramatic power4  ,nor in any other of   
his writings is the attempt made to     
interweave life and speculation1 or to  
connect politics with philosophy4  ,the 
,republic is the centre around which the
 other ,dialogues may be grouped2 here  
philosophy reaches the highest point to 
which ancient thinkers ever attained4   
,plato among the ,greeks1 like ,bacon   
among the moderns1 was the first who    
conceived a method of knowledge1        
although neither of them always         
distinguished the bare outline or form  
from the substance of truth2 and both of

 them had to be content with an         
abstraction of science which was not yet
 realized4  ,he was the greatest        
metaphysical genius whom the world has  
seen2 and in him1 more than in any other
 ancient thinker1 the germs of future   
knowledge are contained4  ,the sciences 
of logic and psychology1 which have     
supplied so many instruments of thought 
to after-ages1 are based upon the       
analyses of ,socrates and ,plato4  ,the 
principles of definition1 the law of    
contradiction1 the fallacy of arguing in
 a circle1 the distinction between the  
essence and accidents of a thing or     
notion1 between means and ends1 between 
causes and conditions2 also the division
 of the mind into the rational1         
concupiscent1 and irascible elements1 or
 of pleasures and desires into necessary
 and unnecessary--these and other great 
forms of thought are all of them to be  
found in the ,republic1 and were        
probably first invented by ,plato4  ,the
 greatest of all logical truths1 and the

 one of which writers on philosophy are 
most apt to lose sight1 the difference  
between words and things1 has been most 
strenuously insisted on by him1 although
 he has not always avoided the confusion
 of them in his own writings4  ,but he  
does not bind up truth in logical       
formulae1--logic is still veiled in     
metaphysics2 and the science which he   
imagines to contemplate all truth and   
all existence is very unlike the        
doctrine of the syllogism which         
,aristotle claims to have discovered4   
,neither must we forget that the        
,republic is but the third part of a    
still larger design which was to have   
included an ideal history of ,athens1 as
 well as a political and physical       
philosophy4  ,the fragment of the       
,critias has given birth to a           
world-famous fiction1 second only in    
importance to the tale of ,troy and the 
legend of ,arthur2 and is said as a fact
 to have inspired some of the early     
navigators of the sixteenth century4    

,this mythical tale1 of which the       
subject was a history of the wars of the
 ,athenians against the ,island of      
,atlantis1 is supposed to be founded    
upon an unfinished poem of ,solon1 to   
which it would have stood in the same   
relation as the writings of the         
logographers to the poems of ,homer4    
,it would have told of a struggle for   
,liberty1 intended to represent the     
conflict of ,persia and ,hellas4 ,we may
 judge from the noble commencement of   
the ,timaeus1 from the fragment of the  
,critias itself1 and from the third book
 of the ,laws1 in what manner ,plato    
would have treated this high argument4  
,we can only guess why the great design 
was abandoned2 perhaps because ,plato   
became sensible of some incongruity in a
 fictitious history1 or because he had  
lost his interest in it1 or because     
advancing years forbade the completion  
of it2 and we may please ourselves with 
the fancy that had this imaginary       
narrative ever been finished1 we should 

have found ,plato himself sympathizing  
with the struggle for ,hellenic         
independence1 singing a hymn of triumph 
over ,marathon and ,salamis1 perhaps    
making the reflection of ,herodotus     
where he contemplates the growth of the 
,athenian empire--,how brave a thing is 
freedom of speech1 which has made the   
,athenians so far exceed every other    
state of ,hellas in greatness6 or1 more 
probably1 attributing the victory to the
 ancient good order of ,athens and to   
the favor of ,apollo and ,athene4       
,again1 ,plato may be regarded as the   
captain 7'arhchegoz'7 or leader of a    
goodly band of followers2 for in the    
,republic is to be found the original of
 ,cicero's ,de ,republica1 of ,st4      
,augustine's ,city of ,god1 of the      
,utopia of ,sir ,thomas ,more1 and of   
the numerous other imaginary ,states    
which are framed upon the same model4   
,the extent to which ,aristotle or the  
,aristotelian school were indebted to   
him in the ,politics has been little    

recognized1 and the recognition is the  
more necessary because it is not made by
 ,aristotle himself4  ,the two          
philosophers had more in common than    
they were conscious of2 and probably    
some elements of ,plato remain still    
undetected in ,aristotle4 ,in ,english  
philosophy too1 many affinities may be  
traced1 not only in the works of the    
,cambridge ,platonists1 but in great    
original writers like ,berkeley or      
,coleridge1 to ,plato and his ideas4    
,that there is a truth higher than      
experience1 of which the mind bears     
witness to herself1 is a conviction     
which in our own generation has been    
enthusiastically asserted1 and is       
perhaps gaining ground4  ,of the ,greek 
authors who at the ,renaissance brought 
a new life into the world ,plato has had
 the greatest influence4  ,the ,republic
 of ,plato is also the first treatise   
upon education1 of which the writings of
 ,milton and ,locke1 ,rousseau1 ,jean   
,paul1 and ,goethe are the legitimate   

descendants4 ,like ,dante or ,bunyan1 he
 has a revelation of another life2 like 
,bacon1 he is profoundly impressed with 
the unity of knowledge2 in the early    
,church he exercised a real influence on
 theology1 and at the ,revival of       
,literature on politics4  ,even the     
fragments of his words when repeated at 
second-hand have in all ages ravished   
the hearts of men1 who have seen        
reflected in them their own higher      
nature4  ,he is the father of idealism  
in philosophy1 in politics1 in          
literature4  ,and many of the latest    
conceptions of modern thinkers and      
statesmen1 such as the unity of         
knowledge1 the reign of law1 and the    
equality of the sexes1 have been        
anticipated in a dream by him4          
,,argument  ,the argument of the        
,republic is the search after ,justice1 
the nature of which is first hinted at  
by ,cephalus1 the just and blameless old
 man--then discussed on the basis of    
proverbial morality by ,socrates and    

,polemarchus--then caricatured by       
,thrasymachus and partially explained by
 ,socrates--reduced to an abstraction by
 ,glaucon and ,adeimantus1 and having   
become invisible in the individual      
reappears at length in the ideal ,state 
which is constructed by ,socrates4  ,the
 first care of the rulers is to be      
education1 of which an outline is drawn 
after the old ,hellenic model1 providing
 only for an improved religion and      
morality1 and more simplicity in music  
and gymnastic1 a manlier strain of      
poetry1 and greater harmony of the      
individual and the ,state4  ,we are thus
 led on to the conception of a higher   
,state1 in which no man calls anything  
his own1 and in which there is neither  
marrying nor giving in marriage1 and    
kings are philosophers and philosophers 
are kings2 and there is another and     
higher education1 intellectual as well  
as moral and religious1 of science as   
well as of art1 and not of youth only   
but of the whole of life4  ,such a      

,state is hardly to be realized in this 
world and would quickly degenerate4  ,to
 the perfect ideal succeeds the         
government of the soldier and the lover 
of honor1 this again declining into     
democracy1 and democracy into tyranny1  
in an imaginary but regular order having
 not much resemblance to the actual     
facts4  ,when the wheel has come full   
circle we do not begin again with a new 
period of human life2 but we have passed
 from the best to the worst1 and there  
we end4  ,the subject is then changed   
and the old quarrel of poetry and       
philosophy which had been more lightly  
treated in the earlier books of the     
,republic is now resumed and fought out 
to a conclusion4  ,poetry is discovered 
to be an imitation thrice removed from  
the truth1 and ,homer1 as well as the   
dramatic poets1 having been condemned as
 an imitator1 is sent into banishment   
along with them4  ,and the idea of the  
,state is supplemented by the revelation
 of a future life4  ,the division into  

books1 like all similar divisions1 is   
probably later than the age of ,plato4  
,the natural divisions are five in      
number2--7#a7 ,book ,i and the first    
half of ,book ,,ii down to the paragraph
 beginning1 ,i had always admired the   
genius of ,glaucon and ,adeimantus1     
which is introductory2 the first book   
containing a refutation of the popular  
and sophistical notions of justice1 and 
concluding1 like some of the earlier    
,dialogues1 without arriving at any     
definite result4  ,to this is appended a
 restatement of the nature of justice   
according to common opinion1 and an     
answer is demanded to the               
question--,what is justice1 stripped of 
appearances8  ,the second division 7#b7 
includes the remainder of the second and
 the whole of the third and fourth      
books1 which are mainly occupied with   
the construction of the first ,state and
 the first education4  ,the third       
division 7#c7 consists of the fifth1    
sixth1 and seventh books1 in which      

philosophy rather than justice is the   
subject of inquiry1 and the second      
,state is constructed on principles of  
communism and ruled by philosophers1 and
 the contemplation of the idea of good  
takes the place of the social and       
political virtues4  ,in the eighth and  
ninth books 7#d7 the perversions of     
,states and of the individuals who      
correspond to them are reviewed in      
succession2 and the nature of pleasure  
and the principle of tyranny are further
 analyzed in the individual man4  ,the  
tenth book 7#e7 is the conclusion of the
 whole1 in which the relations of       
philosophy to poetry are finally        
determined1 and the happiness of the    
citizens in this life1 which has now    
been assured1 is crowned by the vision  
of another4  ,or a more general division
 into two parts may be adopted2 the     
first 7,books ,i-,,iv7 containing the   
description of a ,state framed generally
 in accordance with ,hellenic notions of
 religion and morality1 while in the    

second 7,books ,v-,x7 the ,hellenic     
,state is transformed into an ideal     
kingdom of philosophy1 of which all     
other governments are the perversions4  
,these two points of view are really    
opposed1 and the opposition is only     
veiled by the genius of ,plato4  ,the   
,republic1 like the ,phaedrus1 is an    
imperfect whole2 the higher light of    
philosophy breaks through the regularity
 of the ,hellenic temple1 which at last 
fades away into the heavens4  ,whether  
this imperfection of structure arises   
from an enlargement of the plan2 or from
 the imperfect reconcilement in the     
writer's own mind of the struggling     
elements of thought which are now first 
brought together by him2 or1 perhaps1   
from the composition of the work at     
different times--are questions1 like the
 similar question about the ,iliad and  
the ,odyssey1 which are worth asking1   
but which cannot have a distinct answer4
  ,in the age of ,plato there was no    
regular mode of publication1 and an     

author would have the less scruple in   
altering or adding to a work which was  
known only to a few of his friends4     
,there is no absurdity in supposing that
 he may have laid his labors aside for a
 time1 or turned from one work to       
another2 and such interruptions would be
 more likely to occur in the case of a  
long than of a short writing4  ,in all  
attempts to determine the chronological 
he order of the ,platonic writings on   
internal evidence1 this uncertainty     
about any single ,dialogue being        
composed at one time is a disturbing    
element1 which must be admitted to      
affect longer works1 such as the        
,republic and the ,laws1 more than      
shorter ones4  ,but1 on the other hand1 
the seeming discrepancies of the        
,republic may only arise out of the     
discordant elements which the           
philosopher has attempted to unite in a 
single whole1 perhaps without being     
himself able to recognize the           
inconsistency which is obvious to us4   

,for there is a judgment of after ages  
which few great writers have ever been  
able to anticipate for themselves4      
,they do not perceive the want of       
connection in their own writings1 or the
 gaps in their systems which are visible
 enough to those who come after them4   
,in the beginnings of literature and    
philosophy1 amid the first efforts of   
thought and language1 more              
inconsistencies occur than now1 when the
 paths of speculation are well worn and 
the meaning of words precisely defined4 
,for consistency1 too1 is the growth of 
time2 and some of the greatest creations
 of the human mind have been wanting in 
unity4  ,tried by this test1 several of 
the ,platonic ,dialogues1 according to  
our modern ideas1 appear to be          
defective1 but the deficiency is no     
proof that they were composed at        
different times or by different hands4  
,and the supposition that the ,republic 
was written uninterruptedly and by a    
continuous effort is in some degree     

confirmed by the numerous references    
from one part of the work to another4   
,the second title1 ,concerning ,justice1
 is not the one by which the ,republic  
is quoted1 either by ,aristotle or      
generally in antiquity1 and1 like the   
other second titles of the ,platonic    
,dialogues1 may therefore be assumed to 
be of later date4  ,morgenstern and     
others have asked whether the definition
 of justice1 which is the professed aim1
 or the construction of the ,state is   
the principal argument of the work4     
,the answer is1 that the two blend in   
one1 and are two faces of the same      
truth2 for justice is the order of the  
,state1 and the ,state is the visible   
embodiment of justice under the         
conditions of human society4 ,the one is
 the soul and the other is the body1 and
 the ,greek ideal of the ,state1 as of  
the individual1 is a fair mind in a fair
 body4  ,in ,hegelian phraseology the   
,state is the reality of which justice  
is the ideal4  ,or1 described in        

,christian language1 the kingdom of ,god
 is within1 and yet develops into a     
,church or external kingdom2 the house  
not made with hands1 eternal in the     
heavens1 is reduced to the proportions  
of an earthly building4  ,or1 to use a  
,platonic image1 justice and the ,state 
are the warp and the woof which run     
through the whole texture4  ,and when   
the constitution of the ,state is       
completed1 the conception of justice is 
not dismissed1 but reappears under the  
same or different names throughout the  
work1 both as the inner law of the      
individual soul1 and finally as the     
principle of rewards and punishments in 
another life4  ,the virtues are based on
 justice1 of which common honesty in    
buying and selling is the shadow1 and   
justice is based on the idea of good1   
which is the harmony of the world1 and  
is reflected both in the institutions of
 ,states and in motions of the heavenly 
bodies4  ,the ,timaeus1 which takes up  
the political rather than the ethical   

side of the ,republic1 and is chiefly   
occupied with hypotheses concerning the 
outward world1 yet contains many        
indications that the same law is        
supposed to reign over the ,state1 over 
nature1 and over man4  ,too much1       
however1 has been made of this question 
both in ancient and in modern times4    
,there is a stage of criticism in which 
all works1 whether of nature or of art1 
are referred to design4  ,now in ancient
 writings1 and indeed in literature     
generally1 there remains often a large  
element which was not comprehended in   
the original design4  ,for the plan     
grows under the author's hand2 new      
thoughts occur to him in the act of     
writing2 he has not worked out the      
argument to the end before he begins4   
,the reader who seeks to find some one  
idea under which the whole may be       
conceived1 must necessarily seize on the
 vaguest and most general4  ,thus       
,stallbaum1 who is dissatisfied with the
 ordinary explanations of the argument  

of the ,republic1 imagines himself to   
have found the true argument in the     
representation of human life in a ,state
 perfected by justice and governed      
according to the idea of good4 ,there   
may be some use in such general         
descriptions1 but they can hardly be    
said to express the design of the       
writer4  ,the truth is1 that we may as  
well speak of many designs as of one2   
nor need anything be excluded from the  
plan of a great work to which the mind  
is naturally led by the association of  
ideas1 and which does not interfere with
 the general purpose4  ,what kind or    
degree of unity is to be sought after in
 a building1 in the plastic arts1 in    
poetry1 in prose1 is a problem which has
 to be determined relatively to the     
subject-matter4 ,to ,plato himself1 the 
inquiry what was the intention of the   
writer1 or what was the principal       
argument of the ,republic would have    
been hardly intelligible1 and therefore 
had better be at once dismissed4  ,is   

not the ,republic the vehicle of three  
or four great truths which1 to ,plato's 
own mind1 are most naturally represented
 in the form of the ,state8  ,just as in
 the ,jewish prophets the reign of      
,messiah1 or the day of the ,lord1 or   
the suffering ,servant or people of     
,god1 or the ,sun of righteousness with 
healing in his wings only convey1 to us 
at least1 their great spiritual ideals1 
so through the ,greek ,state ,plato     
reveals to us his own thoughts about    
divine perfection1 which is the idea of 
good--like the sun in the visible       
world2--about human perfection1 which is
 justice--about education beginning in  
youth and continuing in later           
years--about poets and sophists and     
tyrants who are the false teachers and  
evil rulers of mankind--about the world 
which is the embodiment of them--about a
 kingdom which exists nowhere upon earth
 but is laid up in heaven to be the     
pattern and rule of human life4  ,no    
such inspired creation is at unity with 

itself1 any more than the clouds of     
heaven when the sun pierces through     
them4  ,every shade of light and dark1  
of truth1 and of fiction which is the   
veil of truth1 is allowable in a work of
 philosophical imagination4  ,it is not 
all on the same plane2 it easily passes 
from ideas to myths and fancies1 from   
facts to figures of speech4  ,it is not 
prose but poetry1 at least a great part 
of it1 and ought not to be judged by the
 rules of logic or the probabilities of 
history4  ,the writer is not fashioning 
his ideas into an artistic whole2 they  
take possession of him and are too much 
for him4  ,we have no need therefore to 
discuss whether a ,state such as ,plato 
has conceived is practicable or not1 or 
whether the outward form or the inward  
life came first into the mind of the    
writer4  ,for the practicability of his 
ideas has nothing to do with their      
truth2 and the highest thoughts to which
 he attains may be truly said to bear   
the greatest marks of design--justice   

more than the external frame-work of the
 ,state1 the idea of good more than     
justice4  ,the great science of         
dialectic or the organization of ideas  
has no real content2 but is only a type 
of the method or spirit in which the    
higher knowledge is to be pursued by the
 spectator of all time and all          
existence4  ,it is in the fifth1 sixth1 
and seventh books that ,plato reaches   
the summit of speculation1 and these1   
although they fail to satisfy the       
requirements of a modern thinker1 may   
therefore be regarded as the most       
important1 as they are also the most    
original1 portions of the work4  ,it is 
not necessary to discuss at length a    
minor question which has been raised by 
,boeckh1 respecting the imaginary date  
at which the conversation was held 7the 
year #daa ,b4 ,c4 which is proposed by  
him will do as well as any other72 for a
 writer of fiction1 and especially a    
writer who1 like ,plato1 is notoriously 
careless of chronology1 only aims at    

general probability4  ,whether all the  
persons mentioned in the ,republic could
 ever have met at any one time is not a 
difficulty which would have occurred to 
an ,athenian reading the work forty     
years later1 or to ,plato himself at the
 time of writing 7any more than to      
,shakespeare respecting one of his own  
dramas72 and need not greatly trouble us
 now4  ,yet this may be a question      
having no answer which is still worth   
asking1 because the investigation shows 
that we can not argue historically from 
the dates in ,plato2 it would be useless
 therefore to waste time in inventing   
far-fetched reconcilements of them in   
order avoid chronological difficulties1 
such1 for example1 as the conjecture of 
,c4 ,f4 ,hermann1 that ,glaucon and     
,adeimantus are not the brothers but the
 uncles of ,plato1 or the fancy of      
,stallbaum that ,plato intentionally    
left anachronisms indicating the dates  
at which some of his ,dialogues were    
written4    ,,characters  ,the principal

 characters in the ,republic are        
,cephalus1 ,polemarchus1 ,thrasymachus1 
,socrates1 ,glaucon1 and ,adeimantus4   
,cephalus appears in the introduction   
only1 ,polemarchus drops at the end of  
the first argument1 and ,thrasymachus is
 reduced to silence at the close of the 
first book4  ,the main discussion is    
carried on by ,socrates1 ,glaucon1 and  
,adeimantus4  ,among the company are    
,lysias 7the orator7 and ,euthydemus1   
the sons of ,cephalus and brothers of   
,polemarchus1 an unknown                
,charmantides--these are mute auditors2 
also there is ,cleitophon1 who once     
interrupts1 where1 as in the ,dialogue  
which bears his name1 he appears as the 
friend and ally of ,thrasymachus4       
,cephalus1 the patriarch of house1 has  
been appropriately engaged in offering a
 sacrifice4  ,he is the pattern of an   
old man who has almost done with life1  
and is at peace with himself and with   
all mankind4  ,he feels that he is      
drawing nearer to the world below1 and  

seems to linger around the memory of the
 past4  ,he is eager that ,socrates     
should come to visit him1 fond of the   
poetry of the last generation1 happy in 
the consciousness of a well-spent life1 
glad at having escaped from the tyranny 
of youthful lusts4  ,his love of        
conversation1 his affection1 his        
indifference to riches1 even his        
garrulity1 are interesting traits of    
character4  ,he is not one of those who 
have nothing to say1 because their whole
 mind has been absorbed in making money4
  ,yet he acknowledges that riches have 
the advantage of placing men above the  
temptation to dishonesty or falsehood4  
,the respectful attention shown to him  
by ,socrates1 whose love of             
conversation1 no less than the mission  
imposed upon him by the ,oracle1 leads  
him to ask questions of all men1 young  
and old alike1 should also be noted4    
,who better suited to raise the question
 of justice than ,cephalus1 whose life  
might seem to be the expression of it8  

,the moderation with which old age is   
pictured by ,cephalus as a very         
tolerable portion of existence is       
characteristic1 not only of him1 but of 
,greek feeling generally1 and contrasts 
with the exaggeration of ,cicero in the 
,de ,senectute4  ,the evening of life is
 described by ,plato in the most        
expressive manner1 yet with the fewest  
possible touches4  ,as ,cicero remarks  
7,ep4 ad ,attic4 iv4 #af71 the aged     
,cephalus would have been out of place  
in the discussion which follows1 and    
which he could neither have understood  
nor taken part in without a violation of
 dramatic propriety4  ,his son and heir 
,polemarchus has the frankness and      
impetuousness of youth2 he is for       
detaining ,socrates by force in the     
opening scene1 and will not let him off 
on the subject of women and children4   
,like ,cephalus1 he is limited in his   
point of view1 and represents the       
proverbial stage of morality which has  
rules of life rather than principles2   

and he quotes ,simonides as his father  
had quoted ,pindar4 ,but after this he  
has no more to say2 the answers which he
 makes are only elicited from him by the
 dialectic of ,socrates4  ,he has not   
yet experienced the influence of the    
,sophists like ,glaucon and ,adeimantus1
 nor is he sensible of the necessity of 
refuting them2 he belongs to the        
pre-,socratic or pre-dialectical age4   
,he is incapable of arguing1 and is     
bewildered by ,socrates to such a degree
 that he does not know what he is       
saying4  ,he is made to admit that      
justice is a thief1 and that the virtues
 follow the analogy of the arts4  ,from 
his brother ,lysias we learn that he    
fell a victim to the ,thirty ,tyrants1  
but no allusion is here made to his     
fate1 nor to the circumstance that      
,cephalus and his family were of        
,syracusan origin1 and had migrated from
 ,thurii to ,athens4  ,the ,chalcedonian
 giant1 ,thrasymachus1 of whom we have  
already heard in the ,phaedrus1 is the  

personification of the ,sophists1       
according to ,plato's conception of     
them1 in some of their worst            
characteristics4  ,he is vain and       
blustering1 refusing to discourse unless
 he is paid1 fond of making an oration1 
and hoping thereby to escape the        
inevitable ,socrates2 but a mere child  
in argument1 and unable to foresee that 
the next move 7to use a ,platonic       
expression7 will shut him up4  ,he has  
reached the stage of framing general    
notions1 and in this respect is in      
advance of ,cephalus and ,polemarchus4  
,but he is incapable of defending them  
in a discussion1 and vainly tries to    
cover his confusion in banter and       
insolence4  ,whether such doctrines as  
are attributed to him by ,plato were    
really held either by him or by any     
other ,sophist is uncertain2 in the     
infancy of philosophy serious errors    
about morality might easily grow        
up--they are certainly put into the     
mouths of speakers in ,thucydides2 but  

we are concerned at present with        
,plato's description of him1 and not    
with the historical reality4  ,the      
inequality of the contest adds greatly  
to the humor of the scene4  ,the pompous
 and empty ,sophist is utterly helpless 
in the hands of the great master of     
dialectic1 who knows how to touch all   
the springs of vanity and weakness in   
him4  ,he is greatly irritated by the   
irony of ,socrates1 but his noisy and   
imbecile rage only lays him more and    
more open to the thrusts of his         
assailant4  ,his determination to cram  
down their throats1 or put bodily into  
their souls his own words1 elicits a cry
 of horror from ,socrates4  ,the state  
of his temper is quite as worthy of     
remark as the process of the argument4  
,nothing is more amusing than his       
complete submission when he has been    
once thoroughly beaten4  ,at first he   
seems to continue the discussion with   
reluctance1 but soon with apparent      
good-will1 and he even testifies his    

interest at a later stage by one or two 
occasional remarks4  ,when attacked by  
,glaucon he is humorously protected by  
,socrates as one who has never been his 
enemy and is now his friend4 ,from      
,cicero and ,quintilian and from        
,aristotle's ,rhetoric we learn that the
 ,sophist whom ,plato has made so       
ridiculous was a man of note whose      
writings were preserved in later ages4  
,the play on his name which was made by 
his contemporary ,herodicus1 thou wast  
ever bold in battle1 seems to show that 
the description of him is not devoid of 
verisimilitude4  ,when ,thrasymachus has
 been silenced1 the two principal       
respondents1 ,glaucon and ,adeimantus1  
appear on the scene3  here1 as in ,greek
 tragedy1 three actors are introduced4  
,at first sight the two sons of ,ariston
 may seem to wear a family likeness1    
like the two friends ,simmias and ,cebes
 in the ,phaedo4  ,but on a nearer      
examination of them the similarity      
vanishes1 and they are seen to be       

distinct characters4 ,glaucon is the    
impetuous youth who can just never have 
enough of fechting 7cf4 the character of
 him in ,xen4 ,mem4 iii4 #f72 the man of
 pleasure who is acquainted with the    
mysteries of love2 the juvenis qui      
gaudet canibus1 and who improves the    
breed of animals2 the lover of art and  
music who has all the experiences of    
youthful life4  ,he is full of quickness
 and penetration1 piercing easily below 
the clumsy platitudes of ,thrasymachus  
to the real difficulty2 he turns out to 
the light the seamy side of human life1 
and yet does not lose faith in the just 
and true4  ,it is ,glaucon who seizes   
what may be termed the ludicrous        
relation of the philosopher to the      
world1 to whom a state of simplicity is 
a city of pigs1 who is always prepared  
with a jest when the argument offers him
 an opportunity1 and who is ever ready  
to second the humor of ,socrates and to 
appreciate the ridiculous1 whether in   
the connoisseurs of music1 or in the    

lovers of theatricals1 or in the        
fantastic behavior of the citizens of   
democracy4  ,his weaknesses are several 
times alluded to by ,socrates1 who1     
however1 will not allow him to be       
attacked by his brother ,adeimantus4    
,he is a soldier1 and1 like ,adeimantus1
 has been distinguished at the battle of
 ,megara4  ,the character of ,adeimantus
 is deeper and graver1 and the          
profounder objections are commonly put  
into his mouth4  ,glaucon is more       
demonstrative1 and generally opens the  
game4  ,adeimantus pursues the argument 
further4  ,glaucon has more of the      
liveliness and quick sympathy of youth2 
,adeimantus has the maturer judgment of 
a grown-up man of the world4  ,in the   
second book1 when ,glaucon insists that 
justice and injustice shall be          
considered without regard to their      
consequences1 ,adeimantus remarks that  
they are regarded by mankind in general 
only for the sake of their consequences2
 and in a similar vein of reflection he 

urges at the beginning of the fourth    
book that ,socrates falls in making his 
citizens happy1 and is answered that    
happiness is not the first but the      
second thing1 not the direct aim but the
 indirect consequence of the good       
government of a ,state4  ,in the        
discussion about religion and mythology1
 ,adeimantus is the respondent1 but     
,glaucon breaks in with a slight jest1  
and carries on the conversation in a    
lighter tone about music and gymnastic  
to the end of the book4  ,it is         
,adeimantus again who volunteers the    
criticism of common sense on the        
,socratic method of argument1 and who   
refuses to let ,socrates pass lightly   
over the question of women and children4
  ,it is ,adeimantus who is the         
respondent in the more argumentative1 as
 ,glaucon in the lighter and more       
imaginative portions of the ,dialogue4  
,for example1 throughout the greater    
part of the sixth book1 the causes of   
the corruption of philosophy and the    

conception of the idea of good are      
discussed with ,adeimantus4  ,then      
,glaucon resumes his place of principal 
respondent2 but he has a difficulty in  
apprehending the higher education of    
,socrates1 and makes some false hits in 
the course of the discussion4  ,once    
more ,adeimantus returns with the       
allusion to his brother ,glaucon whom he
 compares to the contentious ,state2 in 
the next book he is again superseded1   
and ,glaucon continues to the end4      
,thus in a succession of characters     
,plato represents the successive stages 
of morality1 beginning with the         
,athenian gentleman of the olden time1  
who is followed by the practical man of 
that day regulating his life by proverbs
 and saws2 to him succeeds the wild     
generalization of the ,sophists1 and    
lastly come the young disciples of the  
great teacher1 who know the sophistical 
arguments but will not be convinced by  
them1 and desire to go deeper into the  
nature of things4  ,these too1 like     

,cephalus1 ,polemarchus1 ,thrasymachus1 
are clearly distinguished from one      
another4  ,neither in the ,republic1 nor
 in any other ,dialogue of ,plato1 is a 
single character repeated4  ,the        
delineation of ,socrates in the         
,republic is not wholly consistent4 ,in 
the first book we have more of the real 
,socrates1 such as he is depicted in the
 ,memorabilia of ,xenophon1 in the      
earliest ,dialogues of ,plato1 and in   
the ,apology4  ,he is ironical1         
provoking1 questioning1 the old enemy of
 the ,sophists1 ready to put on the mask
 of ,silenus as well as to argue        
seriously4  ,but in the sixth book his  
enmity towards the ,sophists abates2 he 
acknowledges that they are the          
representatives rather than the         
corrupters of the world4  ,he also      
becomes more dogmatic and constructive1 
passing beyond the range either of the  
political or the speculative ideas of   
the real ,socrates4  ,in one passage    
,plato himself seems to intimate that   

the time had now come for ,socrates1 who
 had passed his whole life in           
philosophy1 to give his own opinion and 
not to be always repeating the notions  
of other men4  ,there is no evidence    
that either the idea of good or the     
conception of a perfect ,state were     
comprehended in the ,socratic teaching1 
though he certainly dwelt on the nature 
of the universal and of final causes    
7cp4 ,xen4 ,mem4 i4 #d2 ,phaedo #ig72   
and a deep thinker like him in his      
thirty or forty years of public         
teaching1 could hardly have falled to   
touch on the nature of family relations1
 for which there is also some positive  
evidence in the ,memorabilia 7,mem4 i4  
#b1 #ea foll47 ,the ,socratic method is 
nominally retained2 and every inference 
is either put into the mouth of the     
respondent or represented as the common 
discovery of him and ,socrates4  ,but   
any one can see that this is a mere     
form1 of which the affectation grows    
wearisome as the work advances4  ,the   

method of inquiry has passed into a     
method of teaching in which by the help 
of interlocutors the same thesis is     
looked at from various points of view4  
,the nature of the process is truly     
characterized by ,glaucon1 when he      
describes himself as a companion who is 
not good for much in an investigation1  
but can see what he is shown1 and may1  
perhaps1 give the answer to a question  
more fluently than another4  ,neither   
can we be absolutely certain that1      
,socrates himself taught the immortality
 of the soul1 which is unknown to his   
disciple ,glaucon in the ,republic2 nor 
is there any reason to suppose that he  
used myths or revelations of another    
world as a vehicle of instruction1 or   
that he would have banished poetry or   
have denounced the ,greek mythology4    
,his favorite oath is retained1 and a   
slight mention is made of the daemonium1
 or internal sign1 which is alluded to  
by ,socrates as a phenomenon peculiar to
 himself4  ,a real element of ,socratic 

teaching1 which is more prominent in the
 ,republic than in any of the other     
,dialogues of ,plato1 is the use of     
example and illustration 7'taphorhtika  
auto prhospherhontez'73 ,let us apply   
the test of common instances4 ,you1 says
 ,adeimantus1 ironically1 in the sixth  
book1 are so unaccustomed to speak in   
images4  ,and this use of examples or   
images1 though truly ,socratic in       
origin1 is enlarged by the genius of    
,plato into the form of an allegory or  
parable1 which embodies in the concrete 
what has been already described1 or is  
about to be described1 in the abstract4 
,thus the figure of the cave in ,book   
,,vii is a recapitulation of the        
divisions of knowledge in ,book ,,vi4   
,the composite animal in ,book ,,ix is  
an allegory of the parts of the soul4   
,the noble captain and the ship and the 
true pilot in ,book ,,vi are a figure of
 the relation of the people to the      
philosophers in the ,state which has    
been described4  ,other figures1 such as

 the dog in the second1 third1 and      
fourth books1 or the marriage of the    
portionless maiden in the sixth book1 or
 the drones and wasps in the eighth and 
ninth books1 also form links of         
connection in long passages1 or are used
 to recall previous discussions4  ,plato
 is most true to the character of his   
master when he describes him as not of  
this world4  ,and with this             
representation of him the ideal ,state  
and the other paradoxes of the ,republic
 are quite in accordance1 though they   
can not be shown to have been           
speculations of ,socrates4  ,to him1 as 
to other great teachers both            
philosophical and religious1 when they  
looked upward1 the world seemed to be   
the embodiment of error and evil4  ,the 
common sense of mankind has revolted    
against this view1 or has only partially
 admitted it4  ,and even in ,socrates   
himself the sterner judgment of the     
multitude at times passes into a sort of
 ironical pity or love4  ,men in general

 are incapable of philosophy1 and are   
therefore at enmity with the            
philosopher2 but their misunderstanding 
of him is unavoidable3 for they have    
never seen him as he truly is in his own
 image2 they are only acquainted with   
artificial systems possessing no native 
force of truth--words which admit of    
many applications4  ,their leaders have 
nothing to measure with1 and are        
therefore ignorant of their own stature4
  ,but they are to be pitied or laughed 
at1 not to be quarrelled with2 they mean
 well with their nostrums1 if they could
 only learn that they are cutting off a 
,hydra's head4  ,this moderation towards
 those who are in error is one of the   
most characteristic features of         
,socrates in the ,republic4  ,in all the
 different representations of ,socrates1
 whether of ,xenophon or ,plato1 and the
 differences of the earlier or later    
,dialogues1 he always retains the       
character of the unwearied and          
disinterested seeker after truth1       

without which he would have ceased to be
 ,socrates4  ,leaving the characters we 
may now analyze the contents of the     
,republic1 and then proceed to consider 
7#a7 ,the general aspects of this       
,hellenic ideal of the ,state1 7#b7 ,the
 modern lights in which the thoughts of 
,plato may be read4      ,,book ,i      
,,socrates - ,,glaucon  ,i ,,went down  
yesterday to the ,piraeus with ,glaucon 
the son of ,ariston1 that ,i might offer
 up my prayers to the goddess2 and also 
because ,i wanted to see in what manner 
they would celebrate the festival1 which
 was a new thing4  ,i was delighted with
 the procession of the inhabitants2 but 
that of the ,thracians was equally1 if  
not more1 beautiful4  ,when we had      
finished our prayers and viewed the     
spectacle1 we turned in the direction of
 the city2 and at that instant          
,polemarchus the son of ,cephalus       
chanced to catch sight of us from a     
distance as we were starting on our way 
home1 and told his servant to run and   

bid us wait for him4  ,the servant took 
hold of me by the cloak behind1 and     
said3 ,polemarchus desires you to wait4 
,i turned round1 and asked him where his
 master was4  ,there he is1 said the    
youth1 coming after you1 if you will    
only wait4  ,certainly we will1 said    
,glaucon2 and in a few minutes          
,polemarchus appeared1 and with him     
,adeimantus1 ,glaucon's brother1        
,niceratus the son of ,nicias1 and      
several others who had been at the      
procession4  ,,socrates - ,,polemarchus 
- ,,glaucon - ,,adeimantus  ,polemarchus
 said to me3  ,i perceive1 ,socrates1   
that you and our companion are already  
on your way to the city4  ,you are not  
far wrong1 ,i said4  ,but do you see1 he
 rejoined1 how many we are8  ,of course4
  ,and are you stronger than all these8 
for if not1 you will have to remain     
where you are4  ,may there not be the   
alternative1 ,i said1 that we may       
persuade you to let us go8  ,but can you
 persuade us1 if we refuse to listen to 

you8 he said4  ,certainly not1 replied  
,glaucon4  ,then we are not going to    
listen2 of that you may be assured4     
,adeimantus added3  ,has no one told you
 of the torch-race on horseback in      
honour of the goddess which will take   
place in the evening8  ,with horses6  ,i
 replied3  ,that is a novelty4  ,will   
horsemen carry torches and pass them one
 to another during the race8  ,yes1 said
 ,polemarchus1 and not only so1 but a   
festival will he celebrated at night1   
which you certainly ought to see4  ,let 
us rise soon after supper and see this  
festival2 there will be a gathering of  
young men1 and we will have a good talk4
  ,stay then1 and do not be perverse4   
,glaucon said3  ,i suppose1 since you   
insist1 that we must4  ,very good1 ,i   
replied4  ,,glaucon - ,,cephalus -      
,,socrates  ,accordingly we went with   
,polemarchus to his house2 and there we 
found his brothers ,lysias and          
,euthydemus1 and with them ,thrasymachus
 the ,chalcedonian1 ,charmantides the   

,paeanian1 and ,cleitophon the son of   
,aristonymus4  ,there too was ,cephalus 
the father of ,polemarchus1 whom ,i had 
not seen for a long time1 and ,i thought
 him very much aged4  ,he was seated on 
a cushioned chair1 and had a garland on 
his head1 for he had been sacrificing in
 the court2 and there were some other   
chairs in the room arranged in a        
semicircle1 upon which we sat down by   
him4  ,he saluted me eagerly1 and then  
he said3--  ,you don't come to see me1  
,socrates1 as often as you ought3 ,if ,i
 were still able to go and see you ,i   
would not ask you to come to me4  ,but  
at my age ,i can hardly get to the city1
 and therefore you should come oftener  
to the ,piraeus4  ,for let me tell you1 
that the more the pleasures of the body 
fade away1 the greater to me is the     
pleasure and charm of conversation4  ,do
 not then deny my request1 but make our 
house your resort and keep company with 
these young men2 we are old friends1 and
 you will be quite at home with us4  ,i 

replied3  ,there is nothing which for my
 part ,i like better1 ,cephalus1 than   
conversing with aged men2 for ,i regard 
them as travellers who have gone a      
journey which ,i too may have to go1 and
 of whom ,i ought to enquire1 whether   
the way is smooth and easy1 or rugged   
and difficult4 ,and this is a question  
which ,i should like to ask of you who  
have arrived at that time which the     
poets call the 'threshold of old        
age'--,is life harder towards the end1  
or what report do you give of it8  ,i   
will tell you1 ,socrates1 he said1 what 
my own feeling is4  ,men of my age flock
 together2 we are birds of a feather1 as
 the old proverb says2 and at our       
meetings the tale of my acquaintance    
commonly is--,i cannot eat1 ,i cannot   
drink2 the pleasures of youth and love  
are fled away3 there was a good time    
once1 but now that is gone1 and life is 
no longer life4  ,some complain of the  
slights which are put upon them by      
relations1 and they will tell you sadly 

of how many evils their old age is the  
cause4  ,but to me1 ,socrates1 these    
complainers seem to blame that which is 
not really in fault4  ,for if old age   
were the cause1 ,i too being old1 and   
every other old man1 would have felt as 
they do4 ,but this is not my own        
experience1 nor that of others whom ,i  
have known4  ,how well ,i remember the  
aged poet ,sophocles1 when in answer to 
the question1 ,how does love suit with  
age1 ,sophocles1--are you still the man 
you were8  ,peace1 he replied2 most     
gladly have ,i escaped the thing of     
which you speak2 ,i feel as if ,i had   
escaped from a mad and furious master4  
,his words have often occurred to my    
mind since1 and they seem as good to me 
now as at the time when he uttered them4
  ,for certainly old age has a great    
sense of calm and freedom2 when the     
passions relax their hold1 then1 as     
,sophocles says1 we are freed from the  
grasp not of one mad master only1 but of
 many4  ,the truth is1 ,socrates1 that  

these regrets1 and also the complaints  
about relations1 are to be attributed to
 the same cause1 which is not old age1  
but men's characters and tempers2 for he
 who is of a calm and happy nature will 
hardly feel the pressure of age1 but to 
him who is of an opposite disposition   
youth and age are equally a burden4  ,i 
listened in admiration1 and wanting to  
draw him out1 that he might go on--,yes1
 ,cephalus1 ,i said3  but ,i rather     
suspect that people in general are not  
convinced by you when you speak thus2   
they think that old age sits lightly    
upon you1 not because of your happy     
disposition1 but because you are rich1  
and wealth is well known to be a great  
comforter4  ,you are right1 he replied2 
they are not convinced3  and there is   
something in what they say2 not1        
however1 so much as they imagine4  ,i   
might answer them as ,themistocles      
answered the ,seriphian who was abusing 
him and saying that he was famous1 not  
for his own merits but because he was an

 ,athenian3  ',if you had been a native 
of my country or ,i of yours1 neither of
 us would have been famous4' ,and to    
those who are not rich and are impatient
 of old age1 the same reply may be made2
 for to the good poor man old age cannot
 be a light burden1 nor can a bad rich  
man ever have peace with himself4  ,may 
,i ask1 ,cephalus1 whether your fortune 
was for the most part inherited or      
acquired by you8  ,acquired6  ,socrates2
 do you want to know how much ,i        
acquired8  ,in the art of making money  
,i have been midway between my father   
and grandfather3 for my grandfather1    
whose name ,i bear1 doubled and trebled 
the value of his patrimony1 that which  
he inherited being much what ,i possess 
now2 but my father ,lysanias reduced the
 property below what it is at present3  
and ,i shall be satisfied if ,i leave to
 these my sons not less but a little    
more than ,i received4  ,that was why ,i
 asked you the question1 ,i replied1    
because ,i see that you are indifferent 

about money1 which is a characteristic  
rather of those who have inherited their
 fortunes than of those who have        
acquired them2 the makers of fortunes   
have a second love of money as a        
creation of their own1 resembling the   
affection of authors for their own      
poems1 or of parents for their children1
 besides that natural love of it for the
 sake of use and profit which is common 
to them and all men4  ,and hence they   
are very bad company1 for they can talk 
about nothing but the praises of wealth4
  ,that is true1 he said4  ,yes1 that is
 very true1 but may ,i ask another      
question8  ,what do you consider to be  
the greatest blessing which you have    
reaped from your wealth8  ,one1 he said1
 of which ,i could not expect easily to 
convince others4 ,for let me tell you1  
,socrates1 that when a man thinks       
himself to be near death1 fears and     
cares enter into his mind which he never
 had before2 the tales of a world below 
and the punishment which is exacted     

there of deeds done here were once a    
laughing matter to him1 but now he is   
tormented with the thought that they may
 be true3 either from the weakness of   
age1 or because he is now drawing nearer
 to that other place1 he has a clearer  
view of these things2 suspicions and    
alarms crowd thickly upon him1 and he   
begins to reflect and consider what     
wrongs he has done to others4  ,and when
 he finds that the sum of his           
transgressions is great he will many a  
time like a child start up in his sleep 
for fear1 and he is filled with dark    
forebodings4  ,but to him who is        
conscious of no sin1 sweet hope1 as     
,pindar charmingly says1 is the kind    
nurse of his age3      ,hope1 he says1  
cherishes the soul of him who lives in  
justice and holiness and is the nurse of
 his age and the     companion of his   
journey2--hope which is mightiest to    
sway     the restless soul of man4  ,how
 admirable are his words6  ,and the     
great blessing of riches1 ,i do not say 

to every man1 but to a good man1 is1    
that he has had no occasion to deceive  
or to defraud others1 either            
intentionally or unintentionally2 and   
when he departs to the world below he is
 not in any apprehension about offerings
 due to the gods or debts which he owes 
to men4  ,now to this peace of mind the 
possession of wealth greatly            
contributes2 and therefore ,i say1 that1
 setting one thing against another1 of  
the many advantages which wealth has to 
give1 to a man of sense this is in my   
opinion the greatest4  ,well said1      
,cephalus1 ,i replied2 but as concerning
 justice1 what is it8--to speak the     
truth and to pay your debts--no more    
than this8  ,and even to this are there 
not exceptions8  ,suppose that a friend 
when in his right mind has deposited    
arms with me and he asks for them when  
he is not in his right mind1 ought ,i to
 give them back to him8  ,no one would  
say that ,i ought or that ,i should be  
right in doing so1 any more than they   

would say that ,i ought always to speak 
the truth to one who is in his          
condition4  ,you are quite right1 he    
replied4  ,but then1 ,i said1 speaking  
the truth and paying your debts is not a
 correct definition of justice4         
,,cephalus - ,,socrates - ,,polemarchus 
,quite correct1 ,socrates1 if ,simonides
 is to be believed1 said ,polemarchus   
interposing4  ,i fear1 said ,cephalus1  
that ,i must go now1 for ,i have to look
 after the sacrifices1 and ,i hand over 
the argument to ,polemarchus and the    
company4  ,is not ,polemarchus your     
heir8  ,i said4  ,to be sure1 he        
answered1 and went away laughing to the 
sacrifices4  ,,socrates - ,,polemarchus 
,tell me then1 ,o thou heir of the      
argument1 what did ,simonides say1 and  
according to you truly say1 about       
justice8  ,he said that the repayment of
 a debt is just1 and in saying so he    
appears to me to be right4  ,i should be
 sorry to doubt the word of such a wise 
and inspired man1 but his meaning1      

though probably clear to you1 is the    
reverse of clear to me4  ,for he        
certainly does not mean1 as we were now 
saying that ,i ought to return a return 
a deposit of arms or of anything else to
 one who asks for it when he is not in  
his right senses2 and yet a deposit     
cannot be denied to be a debt4  ,true4  
,then when the person who asks me is not
 in his right mind ,i am by no means to 
make the return8  ,certainly not4  ,when
 ,simonides said that the repayment of a
 debt was justice1 he did not mean to   
include that case8  ,certainly not2 for 
he thinks that a friend ought always to 
do good to a friend and never evil4     
,you mean that the return of a deposit  
of gold which is to the injury of the   
receiver1 if the two parties are        
friends1 is not the repayment of a      
debt1--that is what you would imagine   
him to say8  ,yes4  ,and are enemies    
also to receive what we owe to them8    
,to be sure1 he said1 they are to       
receive what we owe them1 and an enemy1 

as ,i take it1 owes to an enemy that    
which is due or proper to him--that is  
to say1 evil4  ,simonides1 then1 after  
the manner of poets1 would seem to have 
spoken darkly of the nature of justice2 
for he really meant to say that justice 
is the giving to each man what is proper
 to him1 and this he termed a debt4     
,that must have been his meaning1 he    
said4  ,by heaven6  ,i replied2 and if  
we asked him what due or proper thing is
 given by medicine1 and to whom1 what   
answer do you think that he would make  
to us8  ,he would surely reply that     
medicine gives drugs and meat and drink 
to human bodies4  ,and what due or      
proper thing is given by cookery1 and to
 what8  ,seasoning to food4  ,and what  
is that which justice gives1 and to     
whom8  ,if1 ,socrates1 we are to be     
guided at all by the analogy of the     
preceding instances1 then justice is the
 art which gives good to friends and    
evil to enemies4  ,that is his meaning  
then8  ,i think so4  ,and who is best   

able to do good to his friends and evil 
to his enemies in time of sickness8     
,the physician4  ,or when they are on a 
voyage1 amid the perils of the sea8     
,the pilot4  ,and in what sort of       
actions or with a view to what result is
 the just man most able to do harm to   
his enemy and good to his friends8  ,in 
going to war against the one and in     
making alliances with the other4  ,but  
when a man is well1 my dear             
,polemarchus1 there is no need of a     
physician8  ,no4  ,and he who is not on 
a voyage has no need of a pilot8  ,no4  
,then in time of peace justice will be  
of no use8  ,i am very far from thinking
 so4  ,you think that justice may be of 
use in peace as well as in war8  ,yes4  
,like husbandry for the acquisition of  
corn8  ,yes4  ,or like shoemaking for   
the acquisition of shoes1--that is what 
you mean8  ,yes4  ,and what similar use 
or power of acquisition has justice in  
time of peace8  ,in contracts1          
,socrates1 justice is of use4  ,and by  

contracts you mean partnerships8        
,exactly4  ,but is the just man or the  
skilful player a more useful and better 
partner at a game of draughts8  ,the    
skilful player4  ,and in the laying of  
bricks and stones is the just man a more
 useful or better partner than the      
builder8  ,quite the reverse4  ,then in 
what sort of partnership is the just man
 a better partner than the harp-player1 
as in playing the harp the harp-player  
is certainly a better partner than the  
just man8  ,in a money partnership4     
,yes1 ,polemarchus1 but surely not in   
the use of money2 for you do not want a 
just man to be your counsellor the      
purchase or sale of a horse2 a man who  
is knowing about horses would be better 
for that1 would he not8  ,certainly4    
,and when you want to buy a ship1 the   
shipwright or the pilot would be better8
  ,true4  ,then what is that joint use  
of silver or gold in which the just man 
is to be preferred8  ,when you want a   
deposit to be kept safely4  ,you mean   

when money is not wanted1 but allowed to
 lie8  ,precisely4  ,that is to say1    
justice is useful when money is useless8
  ,that is the inference4  ,and when you
 want to keep a pruning-hook safe1 then 
justice is useful to the individual and 
to the state2 but when you want to use  
it1 then the art of the vine-dresser8   
,clearly4  ,and when you want to keep a 
shield or a lyre1 and not to use them1  
you would say that justice is useful2   
but when you want to use them1 then the 
art of the soldier or of the musician8  
,certainly4  ,and so of all the other   
things2--justice is useful when they are
 useless1 and useless when they are     
useful8  ,that is the inference4  ,then 
justice is not good for much4  ,but let 
us consider this further point3  ,is not
 he who can best strike a blow in a     
boxing match or in any kind of fighting 
best able to ward off a blow8           
,certainly4  ,and he who is most skilful
 in preventing or escaping from a       
disease is best able to create one8     

,true4  ,and he is the best guard of a  
camp who is best able to steal a march  
upon the enemy8  ,certainly4  ,then he  
who is a good keeper of anything is also
 a good thief8  ,that1 ,i suppose1 is to
 be inferred4  ,then if the just man is 
good at keeping money1 he is good at    
stealing it4  ,that is implied in the   
argument4  ,then after all the just man 
has turned out to be a thief4  ,and this
 is a lesson which ,i suspect you must  
have learnt out of ,homer2 for he1      
speaking of ,autolycus1 the maternal    
grandfather of ,odysseus1 who is a      
favourite of his1 affirms that      ,he 
was excellent above all men in theft and
 perjury4  ,and so1 you and ,homer and  
,simonides are agreed that justice is an
 art of theft2 to be practised however  
'for the good of friends and for the    
harm of enemies1'--that was what you    
were saying8  ,no1 certainly not that1  
though ,i do not now know what ,i did   
say2 but ,i still stand by the latter   
words4  ,well1 there is another         

question3  ,by friends and enemies do we
 mean those who are so really1 or only  
in seeming8  ,surely1 he said1 a man may
 be expected to love those whom he      
thinks good1 and to hate those whom he  
thinks evil4  ,yes1 but do not persons  
often err about good and evil3 many who 
are not good seem to be so1 and         
conversely8  ,that is true4  ,then to   
them the good will be enemies and the   
evil will be their friends8  ,true4     
,and in that case they will be right in 
doing good to the evil and evil to the  
good8  ,clearly4  ,but the good are just
 and would not do an injustice8  ,true4 
,then according to your argument it is  
just to injure those who do no wrong8   
,nay1 ,socrates2 the doctrine is        
immoral4  ,then ,i suppose that we ought
 to do good to the just and harm to the 
unjust8  ,i like that better4  ,but see 
the consequence3--,many a man who is    
ignorant of human nature has friends who
 are bad friends1 and in that case he   
ought to do harm to them2 and he has    

good enemies whom he ought to benefit2  
but1 if so1 we shall be saying the very 
opposite of that which we affirmed to be
 the meaning of ,simonides4  ,very true1
 he said3  and ,i think that we had     
better correct an error into which we   
seem to have fallen in the use of the   
words 'friend' and 'enemy4'  ,what was  
the error1 ,polemarchus8  ,i asked4  ,we
 assumed that he is a friend who seems  
to be or who is thought good4  ,and how 
is the error to be corrected8  ,we      
should rather say that he is a friend   
who is1 as well as seems1 good2 and that
 he who seems only1 and is not good1    
only seems to be and is not a friend2   
and of an enemy the same may be said4   
,you would argue that the good are our  
friends and the bad our enemies8  ,yes4 
,and instead of saying simply as we did 
at first1 that it is just to do good to 
our friends and harm to our enemies1 we 
should further say3 ,it is just to do   
good to our friends when they are good  
and harm to our enemies when they are   

evil8  ,yes1 that appears to me to be   
the truth4  ,but ought the just to      
injure any one at all8  ,undoubtedly he 
ought to injure those who are both      
wicked and his enemies4  ,when horses   
are injured1 are they improved or       
deteriorated8  ,the latter4             
,deteriorated1 that is to say1 in the   
good qualities of horses1 not of dogs8  
,yes1 of horses4  ,and dogs are         
deteriorated in the good qualities of   
dogs1 and not of horses8  ,of course4   
,and will not men who are injured be    
deteriorated in that which is the proper
 virtue of man8  ,certainly4  ,and that 
human virtue is justice8  ,to be sure4  
,then men who are injured are of        
necessity made unjust8  ,that is the    
result4  ,but can the musician by his   
art make men unmusical8  ,certainly not4
  ,or the horseman by his art make them 
bad horsemen8  ,impossible4  ,and can   
the just by justice make men unjust1 or 
speaking general can the good by virtue 
make them bad8  ,assuredly not4  ,any   

more than heat can produce cold8  ,it   
cannot4  ,or drought moisture8  ,clearly
 not4  ,nor can the good harm any one8  
,impossible4  ,and the just is the good8
  ,certainly4  ,then to injure a friend 
or any one else is not the act of a just
 man1 but of the opposite1 who is the   
unjust8  ,i think that what you say is  
quite true1 ,socrates4  ,then if a man  
says that justice consists in the       
repayment of debts1 and that good is the
 debt which a man owes to his friends1  
and evil the debt which he owes to his  
enemies1--to say this is not wise2 for  
it is not true1 if1 as has been clearly 
shown1 the injuring of another can be in
 no case just4  ,i agree with you1 said 
,polemarchus4  ,then you and ,i are     
prepared to take up arms against any one
 who attributes such a saying to        
,simonides or ,bias or ,pittacus1 or any
 other wise man or seer8  ,i am quite   
ready to do battle at your side1 he     
said4  ,shall ,i tell you whose ,i      
believe the saying to be8  ,whose8  ,i  

believe that ,periander or ,perdiccas or
 ,xerxes or ,ismenias the ,theban1 or   
some other rich and mighty man1 who had 
a great opinion of his own power1 was   
the first to say that justice is 'doing 
good to your friends and harm to your   
enemies4'  ,most true1 he said4  ,yes1  
,i said2 but if this definition of      
justice also breaks down1 what other can
 be offered8  ,several times in the     
course of the discussion ,thrasymachus  
had made an attempt to get the argument 
into his own hands1 and had been put    
down by the rest of the company1 who    
wanted to hear the end4  ,but when      
,polemarchus and ,i had done speaking   
and there was a pause1 he could no      
longer hold his peace2 and1 gathering   
himself up1 he came at us like a wild   
beast1 seeking to devour us4  ,we were  
quite panic-stricken at the sight of    
him4  ,,socrates - ,,polemarchus -      
,,thrasymachus  ,he roared out to the   
whole company3  ,what folly4  ,socrates1
 has taken possession of you all8  ,and 

why1 sillybillies1 do you knock under to
 one another8  ,i say that if you want  
really to know what justice is1 you     
should not only ask but answer1 and you 
should not seek honour to yourself from 
the refutation of an opponent1 but have 
your own answer2 for there is many a one
 who can ask and cannot answer4  ,and   
now ,i will not have you say that       
justice is duty or advantage or profit  
or gain or interest1 for this sort of   
nonsense will not do for me2 ,i must    
have clearness and accuracy4  ,i was    
panic-stricken at his words1 and could  
not look at him without trembling4      
,indeed ,i believe that if ,i had not   
fixed my eye upon him1 ,i should have   
been struck dumb3  but when ,i saw his  
fury rising1 ,i looked at him first1 and
 was therefore able to reply to him4    
,thrasymachus1 ,i said1 with a quiver1  
don't be hard upon us4 ,polemarchus and 
,i may have been guilty of a little     
mistake in the argument1 but ,i can     
assure you that the error was not       

intentional4  ,if we were seeking for a 
piece of gold1 you would not imagine    
that we were 'knocking under to one     
another1' and so losing our chance of   
finding it4  ,and why1 when we are      
seeking for justice1 a thing more       
precious than many pieces of gold1 do   
you say that we are weakly yielding to  
one another and not doing our utmost to 
get at the truth8  ,nay1 my good friend1
 we are most willing and anxious to do  
so1 but the fact is that we cannot4     
,and if so1 you people who know all     
things should pity us and not be angry  
with us4  ,how characteristic of        
,socrates6 he replied1 with a bitter    
laugh2--that's your ironical style6     
,did ,i not foresee--have ,i not already
 told you1 that whatever he was asked he
 would refuse to answer1 and try irony  
or any other shuffle1 in order that he  
might avoid answering8  ,you are a      
philosopher1 ,thrasymachus1 ,i replied1 
and well know that if you ask a person  
what numbers make up twelve1 taking care

 to prohibit him whom you ask from      
answering twice six1 or three times     
four1 or six times two1 or four times   
three1 'for this sort of nonsense will  
not do for me1'--then obviously1 that is
 your way of putting the question1 no   
one can answer you4  ,but suppose that  
he were to retort1 ',thrasymachus1 what 
do you mean8  ,if one of these numbers  
which you interdict be the true answer  
to the question1 am ,i falsely to say   
some other number which is not the right
 one8--is that your meaning8'--,how     
would you answer him8  ,just as if the  
two cases were at all alike6 he said4   
,why should they not be8  ,i replied2   
and even if they are not1 but only      
appear to be so to the person who is    
asked1 ought he not to say what he      
thinks1 whether you and ,i forbid him or
 not8  ,i presume then that you are     
going to make one of the interdicted    
answers8  ,i dare say that ,i may1      
notwithstanding the danger1 if upon     
reflection ,i approve of any of them4   

,but what if ,i give you an answer about
 justice other and better1 he said1 than
 any of these8  ,what do you deserve to 
have done to you8  ,done to me6--as     
becomes the ignorant1 ,i must learn from
 the wise--that is what ,i deserve to   
have done to me4  ,what1 and no payment6
 a pleasant notion6  ,i will pay when ,i
 have the money1 ,i replied4  ,,socrates
 - ,,thrasymachus - ,,glaucon  ,but you 
have1 ,socrates1 said ,glaucon3  and    
you1 ,thrasymachus1 need be under no    
anxiety about money1 for we will all    
make a contribution for ,socrates4      
,yes1 he replied1 and then ,socrates    
will do as he always does--refuse to    
answer himself1 but take and pull to    
pieces the answer of some one else4     
,why1 my good friend1 ,i said1 how can  
any one answer who knows1 and says that 
he knows1 just nothing2 and who1 even if
 he has some faint notions of his own1  
is told by a man of authority not to    
utter them8  ,the natural thing is1 that
 the speaker should be some one like    

yourself who professes to know and can  
tell what he knows4  ,will you then     
kindly answer1 for the edification of   
the company and of myself8  ,glaucon and
 the rest of the company joined in my   
request and ,thrasymachus1 as any one   
might see1 was in reality eager to      
speak2 for he thought that he had an    
excellent answer1 and would distinguish 
himself4  ,but at first he to insist on 
my answering2 at length he consented to 
begin4  ,behold1 he said1 the wisdom of 
,socrates2 he refuses to teach himself1 
and goes about learning of others1 to   
whom he never even says thank you4      
,that ,i learn of others1 ,i replied1 is
 quite true2 but that ,i am ungrateful  
,i wholly deny4  ,money ,i have none1   
and therefore ,i pay in praise1 which is
 all ,i have3  and how ready ,i am to   
praise any one who appears to me to     
speak well you will very soon find out  
when you answer2 for ,i expect that you 
will answer well4  ,listen1 then1 he    
said2 ,i proclaim that justice is       

nothing else than the interest of the   
stronger4  ,and now why do you not me8  
,but of course you won't4  ,let me first
 understand you1 ,i replied4  ,justice1 
as you say1 is the interest of the      
stronger4  ,what1 ,thrasymachus1 is the 
meaning of this8 ,you cannot mean to say
 that because ,polydamas1 the           
pancratiast1 is stronger than we are1   
and finds the eating of beef conducive  
to his bodily strength1 that to eat beef
 is therefore equally for our good who  
are weaker than he is1 and right and    
just for us8  ,that's abominable of you1
 ,socrates2 you take the words in the   
sense which is most damaging to the     
argument4  ,not at all1 my good sir1 ,i 
said2 ,i am trying to understand them2  
and ,i wish that you would be a little  
clearer4  ,well1 he said1 have you never
 heard that forms of government differ2 
there are tyrannies1 and there are      
democracies1 and there are              
aristocracies8  ,yes1 ,i know4  ,and the
 government is the ruling power in each 

state8  ,certainly4  ,and the different 
forms of government make laws           
democratical1 aristocratical1           
tyrannical1 with a view to their several
 interests2 and these laws1 which are   
made by them for their own interests1   
are the justice which they deliver to   
their subjects1 and him who transgresses
 them they punish as a breaker of the   
law1 and unjust4  ,and that is what ,i  
mean when ,i say that in all states     
there is the same principle of justice1 
which is the interest of the government2
 and as the government must be supposed 
to have power1 the only reasonable      
conclusion is1 that everywhere there is 
one principle of justice1 which is the  
interest of the stronger4  ,now ,i      
understand you1 ,i said2 and whether you
 are right or not ,i will try to        
discover4  ,but let me remark1 that in  
defining justice you have yourself used 
the word 'interest' which you forbade me
 to use4  ,it is true1 however1 that in 
your definition the words 'of the       

stronger' are added4  ,a small addition1
 you must allow1 he said4  ,great or    
small1 never mind about that3  we must  
first enquire whether what you are      
saying is the truth4  ,now we are both  
agreed that justice is interest of some 
sort1 but you go on to say 'of the      
stronger'2 about this addition ,i am not
 so sure1 and must therefore consider   
further4  ,proceed4  ,i will2 and first 
tell me1 ,do you admit that it is just  
or subjects to obey their rulers8  ,i   
do4  ,but are the rulers of states      
absolutely infallible1 or are they      
sometimes liable to err8  ,to be sure1  
he replied1 they are liable to err4     
,then in making their laws they may     
sometimes make them rightly1 and        
sometimes not8  ,true4  ,when they make 
them rightly1 they make them agreeably  
to their interest2 when they are        
mistaken1 contrary to their interest2   
you admit that8  ,yes4  ,and the laws   
which they make must be obeyed by their 
subjects1--and that is what you call    

justice8  ,doubtless4  ,then justice1   
according to your argument1 is not only 
obedience to the interest of the        
stronger but the reverse8  ,what is that
 you are saying8 he asked4  ,i am only  
repeating what you are saying1 ,i       
believe4  ,but let us consider3 ,have we
 not admitted that the rulers may be    
mistaken about their own interest in    
what they command1 and also that to obey
 them is justice8  ,has not that been   
admitted8  ,yes4  ,then you must also   
have acknowledged justice not to be for 
the interest of the stronger1 when the  
rulers unintentionally command things to
 be done which are to their own injury4 
,for if1 as you say1 justice is the     
obedience which the subject renders to  
their commands1 in that case1 ,o wisest 
of men1 is there any escape from the    
conclusion that the weaker are commanded
 to do1 not what is for the interest1   
but what is for the injury of the       
stronger8  ,nothing can be clearer1     
,socrates1 said ,polemarchus4           

,,socrates - ,,cleitophon -             
,,polemarchus - ,,thrasymachus  ,yes1   
said ,cleitophon1 interposing1 if you   
are allowed to be his witness4  ,but    
there is no need of any witness1 said   
,polemarchus1 for ,thrasymachus himself 
acknowledges that rulers may sometimes  
command what is not for their own       
interest1 and that for subjects to obey 
them is justice4  ,yes1                 
,polemarchus1--,thrasymachus said that  
for subjects to do what was commanded by
 their rulers is just4  ,yes1           
,cleitophon1 but he also said that      
justice is the interest of the stronger1
 and1 while admitting both these        
propositions1 he further acknowledged   
that the stronger may command the weaker
 who are his subjects to do what is not 
for his own interest2 whence follows    
that justice is the injury quite as much
 as the interest of the stronger4  ,but1
 said ,cleitophon1 he meant by the      
interest of the stronger what the       
stronger thought to be his              

interest1--this was what the weaker had 
to do2 and this was affirmed by him to  
be justice4  ,those were not his words1 
rejoined ,polemarchus4  ,,socrates -    
,,thrasymachus  ,never mind1 ,i replied1
 if he now says that they are1 let us   
accept his statement4  ,tell me1        
,thrasymachus1 ,i said1 did you mean by 
justice what the stronger thought to be 
his interest1 whether really so or not8 
,certainly not1 he said4  ,do you       
suppose that ,i call him who is mistaken
 the stronger at the time when he is    
mistaken8  ,yes1 ,i said1 my impression 
was that you did so1 when you admitted  
that the ruler was not infallible but   
might be sometimes mistaken4  ,you argue
 like an informer1 ,socrates4  ,do you  
mean1 for example1 that he who is       
mistaken about the sick is a physician  
in that he is mistaken8 or that he who  
errs in arithmetic or grammar is an     
arithmetician or grammarian at the me   
when he is making the mistake1 in       
respect of the mistake8  ,true1 we say  

that the physician or arithmetician or  
grammarian has made a mistake1 but this 
is only a way of speaking2 for the fact 
is that neither the grammarian nor any  
other person of skill ever makes a      
mistake in so far as he is what his name
 implies2 they none of them err unless  
their skill fails them1 and then they   
cease to be skilled artists4  ,no artist
 or sage or ruler errs at the time when 
he is what his name implies2 though he  
is commonly said to err1 and ,i adopted 
the common mode of speaking4  ,but to be
 perfectly accurate1 since you are such 
a lover of accuracy1 we should say that 
the ruler1 in so far as he is the ruler1
 is unerring1 and1 being unerring1      
always commands that which is for his   
own interest2 and the subject is        
required to execute his commands2 and   
therefore1 as ,i said at first and now  
repeat1 justice is the interest of the  
stronger4  ,indeed1 ,thrasymachus1 and  
do ,i really appear to you to argue like
 an informer8  ,certainly1 he replied4  

,and you suppose that ,i ask these      
questions with any design of injuring   
you in the argument8  ,nay1 he replied1 
'suppose' is not the word--,i know it2  
but you will be found out1 and by sheer 
force of argument you will never        
prevail4  ,i shall not make the attempt1
 my dear man2 but to avoid any          
misunderstanding occurring between us in
 future1 let me ask1 in what sense do   
you speak of a ruler or stronger whose  
interest1 as you were saying1 he being  
the superior1 it is just that the       
inferior should execute--is he a ruler  
in the popular or in the strict sense of
 the term8  ,in the strictest of all    
senses1 he said4  ,and now cheat and    
play the informer if you can2 ,i ask no 
quarter at your hands4  ,but you never  
will be able1 never4  ,and do you       
imagine1 ,i said1 that ,i am such a     
madman as to try and cheat1             
,thrasymachus8  ,i might as well shave a
 lion4  ,why1 he said1 you made the     
attempt a minute ago1 and you failed4   

,enough1 ,i said1 of these civilities4  
,it will be better that ,i should ask   
you a question3  ,is the physician1     
taken in that strict sense of which you 
are speaking1 a healer of the sick or a 
maker of money8  ,and remember that ,i  
am now speaking of the true physician4  
,a healer of the sick1 he replied4  ,and
 the pilot--that is to say1 the true    
pilot--is he a captain of sailors or a  
mere sailor8  ,a captain of sailors4    
,the circumstance that he sails in the  
ship is not to be taken into account2   
neither is he to be called a sailor2 the
 name pilot by which he is distinguished
 has nothing to do with sailing1 but is 
significant of his skill and of his     
authority over the sailors4  ,very true1
 he said4  ,now1 ,i said1 every art has 
an interest8  ,certainly4  ,for which   
the art has to consider and provide8    
,yes1 that is the aim of art4  ,and the 
interest of any art is the perfection of
 it--this and nothing else8  ,what do   
you mean8  ,i mean what ,i may          

illustrate negatively by the example of 
the body4 ,suppose you were to ask me   
whether the body is self-sufficing or   
has wants1 ,i should reply3  ,certainly 
the body has wants2 for the body may be 
ill and require to be cured1 and has    
therefore interests to which the art of 
medicine ministers2 and this is the     
origin and intention of medicine1 as you
 will acknowledge4  ,am ,i not right8   
,quite right1 he replied4  ,but is the  
art of medicine or any other art faulty 
or deficient in any quality in the same 
way that the eye may be deficient in    
sight or the ear fail of hearing1 and   
therefore requires another art to       
provide for the interests of seeing and 
hearing--has art in itself1 ,i say1 any 
similar liability to fault or defect1   
and does every art require another      
supplementary art to provide for its    
interests1 and that another and another 
without end8  ,or have the arts to look 
only after their own interests8  ,or    
have they no need either of themselves  

or of another8--having no faults or     
defects1 they have no need to correct   
them1 either by the exercise of their   
own art or of any other2 they have only 
to consider the interest of their       
subject-matter4 ,for every art remains  
pure and faultless while remaining      
true--that is to say1 while perfect and 
unimpaired4  ,take the words in your    
precise sense1 and tell me whether ,i am
 not right4  ,yes1 clearly4  ,then      
medicine does not consider the interest 
of medicine1 but the interest of the    
body8  ,true1 he said4  ,nor does the   
art of horsemanship consider the        
interests of the art of horsemanship1   
but the interests of the horse2 neither 
do any other arts care for themselves1  
for they have no needs2 they care only  
for that which is the subject of their  
art8  ,true1 he said4  ,but surely1     
,thrasymachus1 the arts are the         
superiors and rulers of their own       
subjects8  ,to this he assented with a  
good deal of reluctance4  ,then1 ,i     

said1 no science or art considers or    
enjoins the interest of the stronger or 
superior1 but only the interest of the  
subject and weaker8  ,he made an attempt
 to contest this proposition also1 but  
finally acquiesced4  ,then1 ,i          
continued1 no physician1 in so far as he
 is a physician1 considers his own good 
in what he prescribes1 but the good of  
his patient2 for the true physician is  
also a ruler having the human body as a 
subject1 and is not a mere money-maker2 
that has been admitted8  ,yes4  ,and the
 pilot likewise1 in the strict sense of 
the term1 is a ruler of sailors and not 
a mere sailor8  ,that has been admitted4
  ,and such a pilot and ruler will      
provide and prescribe for the interest  
of the sailor who is under him1 and not 
for his own or the ruler's interest8    
,he gave a reluctant ',yes4'  ,then1 ,i 
said1 ,thrasymachus1 there is no one in 
any rule who1 in so far as he is a      
ruler1 considers or enjoins what is for 
his own interest1 but always what is for

 the interest of his subject or suitable
 to his art2 to that he looks1 and that 
alone he considers in everything which  
he says and does4  ,when we had got to  
this point in the argument1 and every   
one saw that the definition of justice  
had been completely upset1              
,thrasymachus1 instead of replying to   
me1 said3  ,tell me1 ,socrates1 have you
 got a nurse8  ,why do you ask such a   
question1 ,i said1 when you ought rather
 to be answering8  ,because she leaves  
you to snivel1 and never wipes your     
nose3 she has not even taught you to    
know the shepherd from the sheep4  ,what
 makes you say that8  ,i replied4       
,because you fancy that the shepherd or 
neatherd fattens of tends the sheep or  
oxen with a view to their own good and  
not to the good of himself or his       
master2 and you further imagine that the
 rulers of states1 if they are true     
rulers1 never think of their subjects as
 sheep1 and that they are not studying  
their own advantage day and night4  ,oh1

 no2 and so entirely astray are you in  
your ideas about the just and unjust as 
not even to know that justice and the   
just are in reality another's good2 that
 is to say1 the interest of the ruler   
and stronger1 and the loss of the       
subject and servant2 and injustice the  
opposite2 for the unjust is lord over   
the truly simple and just3 he is the    
stronger1 and his subjects do what is   
for his interest1 and minister to his   
happiness1 which is very far from being 
their own4 ,consider further1 most      
foolish ,socrates1 that the just is     
always a loser in comparison with the   
unjust4  ,first of all1 in private      
contracts3 wherever the unjust is the   
partner of the just you will find that1 
when the partnership is dissolved1 the  
unjust man has always more and the just 
less4  ,secondly1 in their dealings with
 the ,state3 when there is an income    
tax1 the just man will pay more and the 
unjust less on the same amount of       
income2 and when there is anything to be

 received the one gains nothing and the 
other much4  ,observe also what happens 
when they take an office2 there is the  
just man neglecting his affairs and     
perhaps suffering other losses1 and     
getting nothing out of the public1      
because he is just2 moreover he is hated
 by his friends and acquaintance for    
refusing to serve them in unlawful ways4
  ,but all this is reversed in the case 
of the unjust man4  ,i am speaking1 as  
before1 of injustice on a large scale in
 which the advantage of the unjust is   
more apparent2 and my meaning will be   
most clearly seen if we turn to that    
highest form of injustice in which the  
criminal is the happiest of men1 and the
 sufferers or those who refuse to do    
injustice are the most miserable--that  
is to say tyranny1 which by fraud and   
force takes away the property of others1
 not little by little but wholesale2    
comprehending in one1 things sacred as  
well as profane1 private and public2 for
 which acts of wrong1 if he were        

detected perpetrating any one of them   
singly1 he would be punished and incur  
great disgrace--they who do such wrong  
in particular cases are called robbers  
of temples1 and man-stealers and        
burglars and swindlers and thieves4     
,but when a man besides taking away the 
money of the citizens has made slaves of
 them1 then1 instead of these names of  
reproach1 he is termed happy and        
blessed1 not only by the citizens but by
 all who hear of his having achieved the
 consummation of injustice4  ,for       
mankind censure injustice1 fearing that 
they may be the victims of it and not   
because they shrink from committing it4 
,and thus1 as ,i have shown1 ,socrates1 
injustice1 when on a sufficient scale1  
has more strength and freedom and       
mastery than justice2 and1 as ,i said at
 first1 justice is the interest of the  
stronger1 whereas injustice is a man's  
own profit and interest4  ,thrasymachus1
 when he had thus spoken1 having1 like a
 bathman1 deluged our ears with his     

words1 had a mind to go away4  ,but the 
company would not let him2 they insisted
 that he should remain and defend his   
position2 and ,i myself added my own    
humble request that he would not leave  
us4  ,thrasymachus1 ,i said to him1     
excellent man1 how suggestive are your  
remarks6  ,and are you going to run away
 before you have fairly taught or       
learned whether they are true or not8   
,is the attempt to determine the way of 
man's life so small a matter in your    
eyes--to determine how life may be      
passed by each one of us to the greatest
 advantage8  ,and do ,i differ from you1
 he said1 as to the importance of the   
enquiry8  ,you appear rather1 ,i        
replied1 to have no care or thought     
about us1 ,thrasymachus--whether we live
 better or worse from not knowing what  
you say you know1 is to you a matter of 
indifference4  ,prithee1 friend1 do not 
keep your knowledge to yourself2 we are 
a large party2 and any benefit which you
 confer upon us will be amply rewarded4 

,for my own part ,i openly declare that 
,i am not convinced1 and that ,i do not 
believe injustice to be more gainful    
than justice1 even if uncontrolled and  
allowed to have free play4  ,for1       
granting that there may be an unjust man
 who is able to commit injustice either 
by fraud or force1 still this does not  
convince me of the superior advantage of
 injustice1 and there may be others who 
are in the same predicament with myself4
 ,perhaps we may be wrong2 if so1 you in
 your wisdom should convince us that we 
are mistaken in preferring justice to   
injustice4  ,and how am ,i to convince  
you1 he said1 if you are not already    
convinced by what ,i have just said2    
what more can ,i do for you8  ,would you
 have me put the proof bodily into your 
souls8  ,heaven forbid6  ,i said2 ,i    
would only ask you to be consistent2 or1
 if you change1 change openly and let   
there be no deception4  ,for ,i must    
remark1 ,thrasymachus1 if you will      
recall what was previously said1 that   

although you began by defining the true 
physician in an exact sense1 you did not
 observe a like exactness when speaking 
of the shepherd2 you thought that the   
shepherd as a shepherd tends the sheep  
not with a view to their own good1 but  
like a mere diner or banqueter with a   
view to the pleasures of the table2 or1 
again1 as a trader for sale in the      
market1 and not as a shepherd4  ,yet    
surely the art of the shepherd is       
concerned only with the good of his     
subjects2 he has only to provide the    
best for them1 since the perfection of  
the art is already ensured whenever all 
the requirements of it are satisfied4   
,and that was what ,i was saying just   
now about the ruler4  ,i conceived that 
the art of the ruler1 considered as     
ruler1 whether in a state or in private 
life1 could only regard the good of his 
flock or subjects2 whereas you seem to  
think that the rulers in states1 that is
 to say1 the true rulers1 like being in 
authority4  ,think6  ,nay1 ,i am sure of

 it4  ,then why in the case of lesser   
offices do men never take them willingly
 without payment1 unless under the idea 
that they govern for the advantage not  
of themselves but of others8  ,let me   
ask you a question3 ,are not the several
 arts different1 by reason of their each
 having a separate function8  ,and1 my  
dear illustrious friend1 do say what you
 think1 that we may make a little       
progress4  ,yes1 that is the difference1
 he replied4  ,and each art gives us a  
particular good and not merely a general
 one--medicine1 for example1 gives us   
health2 navigation1 safety at sea1 and  
so on8  ,yes1 he said4  ,and the art of 
payment has the special function of     
giving pay3 but we do not confuse this  
with other arts1 any more than the art  
of the pilot is to be confused with the 
art of medicine1 because the health of  
the pilot may be improved by a sea      
voyage4  ,you would not be inclined to  
say1 would you1 that navigation is the  
art of medicine1 at least if we are to  

adopt your exact use of language8       
,certainly not4  ,or because a man is in
 good health when he receives pay you   
would not say that the art of payment is
 medicine8  ,i should say not4  ,nor    
would you say that medicine is the art  
of receiving pay because a man takes    
fees when he is engaged in healing8     
,certainly not4  ,and we have admitted1 
,i said1 that the good of each art is   
specially confined to the art8  ,yes4   
,then1 if there be any good which all   
artists have in common1 that is to be   
attributed to something of which they   
all have the common use8  ,true1 he     
replied4  ,and when the artist is       
benefited by receiving pay the advantage
 is gained by an additional use of the  
art of pay1 which is not the art        
professed by him8  ,he gave a reluctant 
assent to this4  ,then the pay is not   
derived by the several artists from     
their respective arts4  ,but the truth  
is1 that while the art of medicine gives
 health1 and the art of the builder     

builds a house1 another art attends them
 which is the art of pay4  ,the various 
arts may be doing their own business and
 benefiting that over which they        
preside1 but would the artist receive   
any benefit from his art unless he were 
paid as well8  ,i suppose not4  ,but    
does he therefore confer no benefit when
 he works for nothing8  ,certainly1 he  
confers a benefit4  ,then now1          
,thrasymachus1 there is no longer any   
doubt that neither arts nor governments 
provide for their own interests2 but1 as
 we were before saying1 they rule and   
provide for the interests of their      
subjects who are the weaker and not the 
stronger--to their good they attend and 
not to the good of the superior4  ,and  
this is the reason1 my dear             
,thrasymachus1 why1 as ,i was just now  
saying1 no one is willing to govern2    
because no one likes to take in hand the
 reformation of evils which are not his 
concern without remuneration4  ,for1 in 
the execution of his work1 and in giving

 his orders to another1 the true artist 
does not regard his own interest1 but   
always that of his subjects2 and        
therefore in order that rulers may be   
willing to rule1 they must be paid in   
one of three modes of payment3 money1 or
 honour1 or a penalty for refusing4     
,,socrates - ,,glaucon  ,what do you    
mean1 ,socrates8 said ,glaucon4  ,the   
first two modes of payment are          
intelligible enough1 but what the       
penalty is ,i do not understand1 or how 
a penalty can be a payment4  ,you mean  
that you do not understand the nature of
 this payment which to the best men is  
the great inducement to rule8  ,of      
course you know that ambition and       
avarice are held to be1 as indeed they  
are1 a disgrace8  ,very true4  ,and for 
this reason1 ,i said1 money and honour  
have no attraction for them2 good men do
 not wish to be openly demanding payment
 for governing and so to get the name of
 hirelings1 nor by secretly helping     
themselves out of the public revenues to

 get the name of thieves4  ,and not     
being ambitious they do not care about  
honour4  ,wherefore necessity must be   
laid upon them1 and they must be induced
 to serve from the fear of punishment4  
,and this1 as ,i imagine1 is the reason 
why the forwardness to take office1     
instead of waiting to be compelled1 has 
been deemed dishonourable4  ,now the    
worst part of the punishment is that he 
who refuses to rule is liable to be     
ruled by one who is worse than himself4 
,and the fear of this1 as ,i conceive1  
induces the good to take office1 not    
because they would1 but because they    
cannot help--not under the idea that    
they are going to have any benefit or   
enjoyment themselves1 but as a          
necessity1 and because they are not able
 to commit the task of ruling to any one
 who is better than themselves1 or      
indeed as good4 ,for there is reason to 
think that if a city were composed      
entirely of good men1 then to avoid     
office would be as much an object of    

contention as to obtain office is at    
present2 then we should have plain proof
 that the true ruler is not meant by    
nature to regard his own interest1 but  
that of his subjects2 and every one who 
knew this would choose rather to receive
 a benefit from another than to have the
 trouble of conferring one4  ,so far am 
,i from agreeing with ,thrasymachus that
 justice is the interest of the         
stronger4  ,this latter question need   
not be further discussed at present2 but
 when ,thrasymachus says that the life  
of the unjust is more advantageous than 
that of the just1 his new statement     
appears to me to be of a far more       
serious character4  ,which of us has    
spoken truly8  ,and which sort of life1 
,glaucon1 do you prefer8  ,i for my part
 deem the life of the just to be the    
more advantageous1 he answered4  ,did   
you hear all the advantages of the      
unjust which ,thrasymachus was          
rehearsing8  ,yes1 ,i heard him1 he     
replied1 but he has not convinced me4   

,then shall we try to find some way of  
convincing him1 if we can1 that he is   
saying what is not true8  ,most         
certainly1 he replied4  ,if1 ,i said1 he
 makes a set speech and we make another 
recounting all the advantages of being  
just1 and he answers and we rejoin1     
there must be a numbering and measuring 
of the goods which are claimed on either
 side1 and in the end we shall want     
judges to decide2 but if we proceed in  
our enquiry as we lately did1 by making 
admissions to one another1 we shall     
unite the offices of judge and advocate 
in our own persons4  ,very good1 he     
said4  ,and which method do ,i          
understand you to prefer8  ,i said4     
,that which you propose4  ,well1 then1  
,thrasymachus1 ,i said1 suppose you     
begin at the beginning and answer me4   
,you say that perfect injustice is more 
gainful than perfect justice8           
,,socrates - ,,glaucon - ,,thrasymachus 
,yes1 that is what ,i say1 and ,i have  
given you my reasons4  ,and what is your

 view about them8  ,would you call one  
of them virtue and the other vice8      
,certainly4  ,i suppose that you would  
call justice virtue and injustice vice8 
,what a charming notion6  ,so likely    
too1 seeing that ,i affirm injustice to 
be profitable and justice not4  ,what   
else then would you say8  ,the opposite1
 he replied4  ,and would you call       
justice vice8  ,no1 ,i would rather say 
sublime simplicity4  ,then would you    
call injustice malignity8  ,no2 ,i would
 rather say discretion4  ,and do the    
unjust appear to you to be wise and     
good8  ,yes1 he said2 at any rate those 
of them who are able to be perfectly    
unjust1 and who have the power of       
subduing states and nations2 but perhaps
 you imagine me to be talking of        
cutpurses4  ,even this profession if    
undetected has advantages1 though they  
are not to be compared with those of    
which ,i was just now speaking4  ,i do  
not think that ,i misapprehend your     
meaning1 ,thrasymachus1 ,i replied2 but 

still ,i cannot hear without amazement  
that you class injustice with wisdom and
 virtue1 and justice with the opposite4 
,certainly ,i do so class them4  ,now1  
,i said1 you are on more substantial and
 almost unanswerable ground2 for if the 
injustice which you were maintaining to 
be profitable had been admitted by you  
as by others to be vice and deformity1  
an answer might have been given to you  
on received principles2 but now ,i      
perceive that you will call injustice   
honourable and strong1 and to the unjust
 you will attribute all the qualities   
which were attributed by us before to   
the just1 seeing that you do not        
hesitate to rank injustice with wisdom  
and virtue4  ,you have guessed most     
infallibly1 he replied4  ,then ,i       
certainly ought not to shrink from going
 through with the argument so long as ,i
 have reason to think that you1         
,thrasymachus1 are speaking your real   
mind2 for ,i do believe that you are now
 in earnest and are not amusing yourself

 at our expense4  ,i may be in earnest  
or not1 but what is that to you8--to    
refute the argument is your business4   
,very true1 ,i said2 that is what ,i    
have to do3  ,but will you be so good as
 answer yet one more question8  ,does   
the just man try to gain any advantage  
over the just8  ,far otherwise2 if he   
did would not be the simple1 amusing    
creature which he is4  ,and would he try
 to go beyond just action8  ,he would   
not4  ,and how would he regard the      
attempt to gain an advantage over the   
unjust2 would that be considered by him 
as just or unjust8  ,he would think it  
just1 and would try to gain the         
advantage2 but he would not be able4    
,whether he would or would not be able1 
,i said1 is not to the point4  ,my      
question is only whether the just man1  
while refusing to have more than another
 just man1 would wish and claim to have 
more than the unjust8  ,yes1 he would4  
,and what of the unjust--does he claim  
to have more than the just man and to do

 more than is just4  ,of course1 he     
said1 for he claims to have more than   
all men4  ,and the unjust man will      
strive and struggle to obtain more than 
the unjust man or action1 in order that 
he may have more than all8  ,true4  ,we 
may put the matter thus1 ,i said--the   
just does not desire more than his like 
but more than his unlike1 whereas the   
unjust desires more than both his like  
and his unlike8  ,nothing1 he said1 can 
be better than that statement4  ,and the
 unjust is good and wise1 and the just  
is neither8  ,good again1 he said4  ,and
 is not the unjust like the wise and    
good and the just unlike them8  ,of     
course1 he said1 he who is of a certain 
nature1 is like those who are of a      
certain nature2 he who is not1 not4     
,each of them1 ,i said1 is such as his  
like is8  ,certainly1 he replied4  ,very
 good1 ,thrasymachus1 ,i said2 and now  
to take the case of the arts3 you would 
admit that one man is a musician and    
another not a musician8  ,yes4  ,and    

which is wise and which is foolish8     
,clearly the musician is wise1 and he   
who is not a musician is foolish4  ,and 
he is good in as far as he is wise1 and 
bad in as far as he is foolish8  ,yes4  
,and you would say the same sort of     
thing of the physician8  ,yes4  ,and do 
you think1 my excellent friend1 that a  
musician when he adjusts the lyre would 
desire or claim to exceed or go beyond a
 musician in the tightening and         
loosening the strings8  ,i do not think 
that he would4  ,but he would claim to  
exceed the non-musician8  ,of course4   
,and what would you say of the          
physician8  ,in prescribing meats and   
drinks would he wish to go beyond       
another physician or beyond the practice
 of medicine8  ,he would not4  ,but he  
would wish to go beyond the             
non-physician8  ,yes4  ,and about       
knowledge and ignorance in general2 see 
whether you think that any man who has  
knowledge ever would wish to have the   
choice of saying or doing more than     

another man who has knowledge4  ,would  
he not rather say or do the same as his 
like in the same case8  ,that1 ,i       
suppose1 can hardly be denied4  ,and    
what of the ignorant8 would he not      
desire to have more than either the     
knowing or the ignorant8  ,i dare say4  
,and the knowing is wise8  ,yes4  ,and  
the wise is good8  ,true4  ,then the    
wise and good will not desire to gain   
more than his like1 but more than his   
unlike and opposite8  ,i suppose so4    
,whereas the bad and ignorant will      
desire to gain more than both8  ,yes4   
,but did we not say1 ,thrasymachus1 that
 the unjust goes beyond both his like   
and unlike8  ,were not these your words8
  ,they were4  ,they were4  ,and you    
also said that the lust will not go     
beyond his like but his unlike8  ,yes4  
,then the just is like the wise and     
good1 and the unjust like the evil and  
ignorant8  ,that is the inference4  ,and
 each of them is such as his like is8   
,that was admitted4  ,then the just has 

turned out to be wise and good and the  
unjust evil and ignorant4  ,thrasymachus
 made all these admissions1 not         
fluently1 as ,i repeat them1 but with   
extreme reluctance2 it was a hot        
summer's day1 and the perspiration      
poured from him in torrents2 and then ,i
 saw what ,i had never seen before1     
,thrasymachus blushing4  ,as we were now
 agreed that justice was virtue and     
wisdom1 and injustice vice and          
ignorance1 ,i proceeded to another      
point3  ,well1 ,i said1 ,thrasymachus1  
that matter is now settled2 but were we 
not also saying that injustice had      
strength2 do you remember8  ,yes1 ,i    
remember1 he said1 but do not suppose   
that ,i approve of what you are saying  
or have no answer2 if however ,i were to
 answer1 you would be quite certain to  
accuse me of haranguing2 therefore      
either permit me to have my say out1 or 
if you would rather ask1 do so1 and ,i  
will answer ',very good1' as they say to
 story-telling old women1 and will nod  

',yes' and ',no4'  ,certainly not1 ,i   
said1 if contrary to your real opinion4 
,yes1 he said1 ,i will1 to please you1  
since you will not let me speak4 ,what  
else would you have8  ,nothing in the   
world1 ,i said2 and if you are so       
disposed ,i will ask and you shall      
answer4  ,proceed4  ,then ,i will repeat
 the question which ,i asked before1 in 
order that our examination of the       
relative nature of justice and injustice
 may be carried on regularly4  ,a       
statement was made that injustice is    
stronger and more powerful than justice1
 but now justice1 having been identified
 with wisdom and virtue1 is easily shown
 to be stronger than injustice1 if      
injustice is ignorance2 this can no     
longer be questioned by any one4 ,but ,i
 want to view the matter1 ,thrasymachus1
 in a different way3 ,you would not deny
 that a state may be unjust and may be  
unjustly attempting to enslave other    
states1 or may have already enslaved    
them1 and may be holding many of them in

 subjection8  ,true1 he replied2 and ,i 
will add the best and perfectly unjust  
state will be most likely to do so4  ,i 
know1 ,i said1 that such was your       
position2 but what ,i would further     
consider is1 whether this power which is
 possessed by the superior state can    
exist or be exercised without justice4  
,if you are right in you view1 and      
justice is wisdom1 then only with       
justice2 but if ,i am right1 then       
without justice4  ,i am delighted1      
,thrasymachus1 to see you not only      
nodding assent and dissent1 but making  
answers which are quite excellent4      
,that is out of civility to you1 he     
replied4  ,you are very kind1 ,i said2  
and would you have the goodness also to 
inform me1 whether you think that a     
state1 or an army1 or a band of robbers 
and thieves1 or any other gang of       
evil-doers could act at all if they     
injured one another8  ,no indeed1 he    
said1 they could not4  ,but if they     
abstained from injuring one another1    

then they might act together better8    
,yes4  ,and this is because injustice   
creates divisions and hatreds and       
fighting1 and justice imparts harmony   
and friendship2 is not that true1       
,thrasymachus8  ,i agree1 he said1      
because ,i do not wish to quarrel with  
you4  ,how good of you1 ,i said2 but ,i 
should like to know also whether        
injustice1 having this tendency to      
arouse hatred1 wherever existing1 among 
slaves or among freemen1 will not make  
them hate one another and set them at   
variance and render them incapable of   
common action8  ,certainly4  ,and even  
if injustice be found in two only1 will 
they not quarrel and fight1 and become  
enemies to one another and to the just4 
,they will4  ,and suppose injustice     
abiding in a single person1 would your  
wisdom say that she loses or that she   
retains her natural power8  ,let us     
assume that she retains her power4  ,yet
 is not the power which injustice       
exercises of such a nature that wherever

 she takes up her abode1 whether in a   
city1 in an army1 in a family1 or in any
 other body1 that body is1 to begin     
with1 rendered incapable of united      
action by reason of sedition and        
distraction2 and does it not become its 
own enemy and at variance with all that 
opposes it1 and with the just8  ,is not 
this the case8  ,yes1 certainly4  ,and  
is not injustice equally fatal when     
existing in a single person2 in the     
first place rendering him incapable of  
action because he is not at unity with  
himself1 and in the second place making 
him an enemy to himself and the just8   
,is not that true1 ,thrasymachus8  ,yes4
  ,and ,o my friend1 ,i said1 surely the
 gods are just8  ,granted that they are4
  ,but if so1 the unjust will be the    
enemy of the gods1 and the just will be 
their friend8  ,feast away in triumph1  
and take your fill of the argument2 ,i  
will not oppose you1 lest ,i should     
displease the company4  ,well then1     
proceed with your answers1 and let me   

have the remainder of my repast4  ,for  
we have already shown that the just are 
clearly wiser and better and abler than 
the unjust1 and that the unjust are     
incapable of common action2 nay ing at  
more1 that to speak as we did of men who
 are evil acting at any time vigorously 
together1 is not strictly true1 for if  
they had been perfectly evil1 they would
 have laid hands upon one another2 but  
it is evident that there must have been 
some remnant of justice in them1 which  
enabled them to combine2 if there had   
not been they would have injured one    
another as well as their victims2 they  
were but half--villains in their        
enterprises2 for had they been whole    
villains1 and utterly unjust1 they would
 have been utterly incapable of action4 
,that1 as ,i believe1 is the truth of   
the matter1 and not what you said at    
first4  ,but whether the just have a    
better and happier life than the unjust 
is a further question which we also     
proposed to consider4  ,i think that    

they have1 and for the reasons which to 
have given2 but still ,i should like to 
examine further1 for no light matter is 
at stake1 nothing less than the rule of 
human life4  ,proceed4  ,i will proceed 
by asking a question3  ,would you not   
say that a horse has some end8  ,i      
should4  ,and the end or use of a horse 
or of anything would be that which could
 not be accomplished1 or not so well    
accomplished1 by any other thing8  ,i do
 not understand1 he said4  ,let me      
explain3  ,can you see1 except with the 
eye8  ,certainly not4  ,or hear1 except 
with the ear8  ,no4  ,these then may be 
truly said to be the ends of these      
organs8  ,they may4  ,but you can cut   
off a vine-branch with a dagger or with 
a chisel1 and in many other ways8  ,of  
course4  ,and yet not so well as with a 
pruning-hook made for the purpose8      
,true4  ,may we not say that this is the
 end of a pruning-hook8  ,we may4  ,then
 now ,i think you will have no          
difficulty in understanding my meaning  

when ,i asked the question whether the  
end of anything would be that which     
could not be accomplished1 or not so    
well accomplished1 by any other thing8  
,i understand your meaning1 he said1 and
 assent4  ,and that to which an end is  
appointed has also an excellence8  ,need
 ,i ask again whether the eye has an    
end8  ,it has4  ,and has not the eye an 
excellence8  ,yes4  ,and the ear has an 
end and an excellence also8  ,true4     
,and the same is true of all other      
things2 they have each of them an end   
and a special excellence8  ,that is so4 
,well1 and can the eyes fulfil their end
 if they are wanting in their own proper
 excellence and have a defect instead8  
,how can they1 he said1 if they are     
blind and cannot see8  ,you mean to say1
 if they have lost their proper         
excellence1 which is sight2 but ,i have 
not arrived at that point yet4  ,i would
 rather ask the question more generally1
 and only enquire whether the things    
which fulfil their ends fulfil them by  

their own proper excellence1 and fall of
 fulfilling them by their own defect8   
,certainly1 he replied4  ,i might say   
the same of the ears2 when deprived of  
their own proper excellence they cannot 
fulfil their end8  ,true4  ,and the same
 observation will apply to all other    
things8  ,i agree4  ,well2 and has not  
the soul an end which nothing else can  
fulfil8  for example1 to superintend and
 command and deliberate and the like4   
,are not these functions proper to the  
soul1 and can they rightly be assigned  
to any other8  ,to no other4  ,and is   
not life to be reckoned among the ends  
of the soul8  ,assuredly1 he said4  ,and
 has not the soul an excellence also8   
,yes4  ,and can she or can she not      
fulfil her own ends when deprived of    
that excellence8  ,she cannot4  ,then an
 evil soul must necessarily be an evil  
ruler and superintendent1 and the good  
soul a good ruler8  ,yes1 necessarily4  
,and we have admitted that justice is   
the excellence of the soul1 and         

injustice the defect of the soul8  ,that
 has been admitted4  ,then the just soul
 and the just man will live well1 and   
the unjust man will live ill8  ,that is 
what your argument proves4  ,and he who 
lives well is blessed and happy1 and he 
who lives ill the reverse of happy8     
,certainly4  ,then the just is happy1   
and the unjust miserable8  ,so be it4   
,but happiness and not misery is        
profitable4  ,of course4  ,then1 my     
blessed ,thrasymachus1 injustice can    
never be more profitable than justice4  
,let this1 ,socrates1 he said1 be your  
entertainment at the ,bendidea4  ,for   
which ,i am indebted to you1 ,i said1   
now that you have grown gentle towards  
me and have left off scolding4          
,nevertheless1 ,i have not been well    
entertained2 but that was my own fault  
and not yours4  ,as an epicure snatches 
a taste of every dish which is          
successively brought to table1 he not   
having allowed himself time to enjoy the
 one before1 so have ,i gone from one   

subject to another without having       
discovered what ,i sought at first1 the 
nature of justice4  ,i left that enquiry
 and turned away to consider whether    
justice is virtue and wisdom or evil and
 folly2 and when there arose a further  
question about the comparative          
advantages of justice and injustice1 ,i 
could not refrain from passing on to    
that4  ,and the result of the whole     
discussion has been that ,i know nothing
 at all4  ,for ,i know not what justice 
is1 and therefore ,i am not likely to   
know whether it is or is not a virtue1  
nor can ,i say whether the just man is  
happy or unhappy4     ,,book ,,ii       
,,socrates - ,,glaucon  ,,with these    
words ,i was thinking that ,i had made  
an end of the discussion2 but the end1  
in truth1 proved to be only a beginning4
  ,for ,glaucon1 who is always the most 
pugnacious of men1 was dissatisfied at  
,thrasymachus' retirement2 he wanted to 
have the battle out4  ,so he said to me3
  ,socrates1 do you wish really to      

persuade us1 or only to seem to have    
persuaded us1 that to be just is always 
better than to be unjust8  ,i should    
wish really to persuade you1 ,i replied1
 if ,i could4  ,then you certainly have 
not succeeded4  ,let me ask you         
now3--,how would you arrange goods--are 
there not some which we welcome for     
their own sakes1 and independently of   
their consequences1 as1 for example1    
harmless pleasures and enjoyments1 which
 delight us at the time1 although       
nothing follows from them8  ,i agree in 
thinking that there is such a class1 ,i 
replied4  ,is there not also a second   
class of goods1 such as knowledge1      
sight1 health1 which are desirable not  
only in themselves1 but also for their  
results8  ,certainly1 ,i said4  ,and    
would you not recognize a third class1  
such as gymnastic1 and the care of the  
sick1 and the physician's art2 also the 
various ways of money-making--these do  
us good but we regard them as           
disagreeable2 and no one would choose   

them for their own sakes1 but only for  
the sake of some reward or result which 
flows from them8  ,there is1 ,i said1   
this third class also4  ,but why do you 
ask8  ,because ,i want to know in which 
of the three classes you would place    
justice8  ,in the highest class1 ,i     
replied1--among those goods which he who
 would be happy desires both for their  
own sake and for the sake of their      
results4  ,then the many are of another 
mind2 they think that justice is to be  
reckoned in the troublesome class1 among
 goods which are to be pursued for the  
sake of rewards and of reputation1 but  
in themselves are disagreeable and      
rather to be avoided4  ,i know1 ,i said1
 that this is their manner of thinking1 
and that this was the thesis which      
,thrasymachus was maintaining just now1 
when he censured justice and praised    
injustice4  ,but ,i am too stupid to be 
convinced by him4  ,i wish1 he said1    
that you would hear me as well as him1  
and then ,i shall see whether you and ,i

 agree4  ,for ,thrasymachus seems to me1
 like a snake1 to have been charmed by  
your voice sooner than he ought to have 
been2 but to my mind the nature of      
justice and injustice have not yet been 
made clear4  ,setting aside their       
rewards and results1 ,i want to know    
what they are in themselves1 and how    
they inwardly work in the soul4  ,if    
you1 please1 then1 ,i will revive the   
argument of ,thrasymachus4  ,and first  
,i will speak of the nature and origin  
of justice according to the common view 
of them4  ,secondly1 ,i will show that  
all men who practise justice do so      
against their will1 of necessity1 but   
not as a good4  ,and thirdly1 ,i will   
argue that there is reason in this view1
 for the life of the unjust is after all
 better far than the life of the        
just--if what they say is true1         
,socrates1 since ,i myself am not of    
their opinion4  ,but still ,i           
acknowledge that ,i am perplexed when ,i
 hear the voices of ,thrasymachus and   

myriads of others dinning in my ears2   
and1 on the other hand1 ,i have never   
yet heard the superiority of justice to 
injustice maintained by any one in a    
satisfactory way4  ,i want to hear      
justice praised in respect of itself2   
then ,i shall be satisfied1 and you are 
the person from whom ,i think that ,i am
 most likely to hear this2 and therefore
 ,i will praise the unjust life to the  
utmost of my power1 and my manner of    
speaking will indicate the manner in    
which ,i desire to hear you too praising
 justice and censuring injustice4  ,will
 you say whether you approve of my      
proposal8  ,indeed ,i do2 nor can ,i    
imagine any theme about which a man of  
sense would oftener wish to converse4   
,i am delighted1 he replied1 to hear you
 say so1 and shall begin by speaking1 as
 ,i proposed1 of the nature and origin  
of justice4  ,,glaucon  ,they say that  
to do injustice is1 by nature1 good2 to 
suffer injustice1 evil2 but that the    
evil is greater than the good4  ,and so 

when men have both done and suffered    
injustice and have had experience of    
both1 not being able to avoid the one   
and obtain the other1 they think that   
they had better agree among themselves  
to have neither2 hence there arise laws 
and mutual covenants2 and that which is 
ordained by law is termed by them lawful
 and just4  ,this they affirm to be the 
origin and nature of justice2--it is a  
mean or compromise1 between the best of 
all1 which is to do injustice and not be
 punished1 and the worst of all1 which  
is to suffer injustice without the power
 of retaliation2 and justice1 being at a
 middle point between the two1 is       
tolerated not as a good1 but as the     
lesser evil1 and honoured by reason of  
the inability of men to do injustice4   
,for no man who is worthy to be called a
 man would ever submit to such an       
agreement if he were able to resist2 he 
would be mad if he did4  ,such is the   
received account1 ,socrates1 of the     
nature and origin of justice4  ,now that

 those who practise justice do so       
involuntarily and because they have not 
the power to be unjust will best appear 
if we imagine something of this kind3   
having given both to the just and the   
unjust power to do what they will1 let  
us watch and see whither desire will    
lead them2 then we shall discover in the
 very act the just and unjust man to be 
proceeding along the same road1         
following their interest1 which all     
natures deem to be their good1 and are  
only diverted into the path of justice  
by the force of law4  ,the liberty which
 we are supposing may be most completely
 given to them in the form of such a    
power as is said to have been possessed 
by ,gyges the ancestor of ,croesus the  
,lydian4  ,according to the tradition1  
,gyges was a shepherd in the service of 
the king of ,lydia2 there was a great   
storm1 and an earthquake made an opening
 in the earth at the place where he was 
feeding his flock4  ,amazed at the      
sight1 he descended into the opening1   

where1 among other marvels1 he beheld a 
hollow brazen horse1 having doors1 at   
which he stooping and looking in saw a  
dead body of stature1 as appeared to    
him1 more than human1 and having nothing
 on but a gold ring2 this he took from  
the finger of the dead and reascended4  
,now the shepherds met together1        
according to custom1 that they might    
send their monthly report about the     
flocks to the king2 into their assembly 
he came having the ring on his finger1  
and as he was sitting among them he     
chanced to turn the collet of the ring  
inside his hand1 when instantly he      
became invisible to the rest of the     
company and they began to speak of him  
as if he were no longer present4  ,he   
was astonished at this1 and again       
touching the ring he turned the collet  
outwards and reappeared2 he made several
 trials of the ring1 and always with the
 same result-when he turned the collet  
inwards he became invisible1 when       
outwards he reappeared4  ,whereupon he  

contrived to be chosen one of the       
messengers who were sent to the court2  
where as soon as he arrived he seduced  
the queen1 and with her help conspired  
against the king and slew him1 and took 
the kingdom4  ,suppose now that there   
were two such magic rings1 and the just 
put on one of them and the unjust the   
other2 no man can be imagined to be of  
such an iron nature that he would stand 
fast in justice4  ,no man would keep his
 hands off what was not his own when he 
could safely take what he liked out of  
the market1 or go into houses and lie   
with any one at his pleasure1 or kill or
 release from prison whom he would1 and 
in all respects be like a ,god among    
men4 ,then the actions of the just would
 be as the actions of the unjust2 they  
would both come at last to the same     
point4  ,and this we may truly affirm to
 be a great proof that a man is just1   
not willingly or because he thinks that 
justice is any good to him individually1
 but of necessity1 for wherever any one 

thinks that he can safely be unjust1    
there he is unjust4  ,for all men       
believe in their hearts that injustice  
is far more profitable to the individual
 than justice1 and he who argues as ,i  
have been supposing1 will say that they 
are right4  ,if you could imagine any   
one obtaining this power of becoming    
invisible1 and never doing any wrong or 
touching what was another's1 he would be
 thought by the lookers-on to be a most 
wretched idiot1 although they would     
praise him to one another's faces1 and  
keep up appearances with one another    
from a fear that they too might suffer  
injustice4  ,enough of this4  ,now1 if  
we are to form a real judgment of the   
life of the just and unjust1 we must    
isolate them2 there is no other way2 and
 how is the isolation to be effected8   
,i answer3  ,let the unjust man be      
entirely unjust1 and the just man       
entirely just2 nothing is to be taken   
away from either of them1 and both are  
to be perfectly furnished for the work  

of their respective lives4  ,first1 let 
the unjust be like other distinguished  
masters of craft2 like the skilful pilot
 or physician1 who knows intuitively his
 own powers and keeps within their      
limits1 and who1 if he fails at any     
point1 is able to recover himself4  ,so 
let the unjust make his unjust attempts 
in the right way1 and lie hidden if he  
means to be great in his injustice 7he  
who is found out is nobody73 for the    
highest reach of injustice is3 to be    
deemed just when you are not4 ,therefore
 ,i say that in the perfectly unjust man
 we must assume the most perfect        
injustice2 there is to be no deduction1 
but we must allow him1 while doing the  
most unjust acts1 to have acquired the  
greatest reputation for justice4  ,if he
 have taken a false step he must be able
 to recover himself2 he must be one who 
can speak with effect1 if any of his    
deeds come to light1 and who can force  
his way where force is required his     
courage and strength1 and command of    

money and friends4 ,and at his side let 
us place the just man in his nobleness  
and simplicity1 wishing1 as ,aeschylus  
says1 to be and not to seem good4 ,there
 must be no seeming1 for if he seem to  
be just he will be honoured and         
rewarded1 and then we shall not know    
whether he is just for the sake of      
justice or for the sake of honours and  
rewards2 therefore1 let him be clothed  
in justice only1 and have no other      
covering2 and he must be imagined in a  
state of life the opposite of the       
former4  ,let him be the best of men1   
and let him be thought the worst2 then  
he will have been put to the proof2 and 
we shall see whether he will be affected
 by the fear of infamy and its          
consequences4  ,and let him continue    
thus to the hour of death2 being just   
and seeming to be unjust4  ,when both   
have reached the uttermost extreme1 the 
one of justice and the other of         
injustice1 let judgment be given which  
of them is the happier of the two4      

,,socrates - ,,glaucon  ,heavens6 my    
dear ,glaucon1 ,i said1 how             
energetically you polish them up for the
 decision1 first one and then the other1
 as if they were two statues4  ,i do my 
best1 he said4  ,and now that we know   
what they are like there is no          
difficulty in tracing out the sort of   
life which awaits either of them4  ,this
 ,i will proceed to describe2 but as you
 may think the description a little too 
coarse1 ,i ask you to suppose1          
,socrates1 that the words which follow  
are not mine4-- ,let me put them into   
the mouths of the eulogists of          
injustice3 ,they will tell you that the 
just man who is thought unjust will be  
scourged1 racked1 bound--will have his  
eyes burnt out2 and1 at last1 after     
suffering every kind of evil1 he will be
 impaled3  ,then he will understand that
 he ought to seem only1 and not to be1  
just2 the words of ,aeschylus may be    
more truly spoken of the unjust than of 
the just4  ,for the unjust is pursuing a

 reality2 he does not live with a view  
to appearances--he wants to be really   
unjust and not to seem only3--      ,his
 mind has a soil deep and fertile1      
,out of which spring his prudent        
counsels4  ,in the first place1 he is   
thought just1 and therefore bears rule  
in the city2 he can marry whom he will1 
and give in marriage to whom he will2   
also he can trade and deal where he     
likes1 and always to his own advantage1 
because he has no misgivings about      
injustice and at every contest1 whether 
in public or private1 he gets the better
 of his antagonists1 and gains at their 
expense1 and is rich1 and out of his    
gains he can benefit his friends1 and   
harm his enemies2 moreover1 he can offer
 sacrifices1 and dedicate gifts to the  
gods abundantly and magnificently1 and  
can honour the gods or any man whom he  
wants to honour in a far better style   
than the just1 and therefore he is      
likely to be dearer than they are to the
 gods4  ,and thus1 ,socrates1 gods and  

men are said to unite in making the life
 of the unjust better than the life of  
the just4  ,,adeimantus - ,,socrates  ,i
 was going to say something in answer to
 ,glaucon1 when ,adeimantus1 his        
brother1 interposed3  ,socrates1 he     
said1 you do not suppose that there is  
nothing more to be urged8  ,why1 what   
else is there8  ,i answered4  ,the      
strongest point of all has not been even
 mentioned1 he replied4  ,well1 then1   
according to the proverb1 ',let brother 
help brother'--if he fails in any part  
do you assist him2 although ,i must     
confess that ,glaucon has already said  
quite enough to lay me in the dust1 and 
take from me the power of helping       
justice4  ,,adeimantus  ,nonsense1 he   
replied4  ,but let me add something     
more3  ,there is another side to        
,glaucon's argument about the praise and
 censure of justice and injustice1 which
 is equally required in order to bring  
out what ,i believe to be his meaning4  
,parents and tutors are always telling  

their sons and their wards that they are
 to be just2 but why8 not for the sake  
of justice1 but for the sake of         
character and reputation2 in the hope of
 obtaining for him who is reputed just  
some of those offices1 marriages1 and   
the like which ,glaucon has enumerated  
among the advantages accruing to the    
unjust from the reputation of justice4  
,more1 however1 is made of appearances  
by this class of persons than by the    
others2 for they throw in the good      
opinion of the gods1 and will tell you  
of a shower of benefits which the       
heavens1 as they say1 rain upon the     
pious2 and this accords with the        
testimony of the noble ,hesiod and      
,homer1 the first of whom says1 that the
 gods make the oaks of the just--       
,to hear acorns at their summit1 and    
bees ,i the middle2     ,and the sheep  
the bowed down bowed the with the their 
fleeces4  and many other blessings of a 
like kind are provided for them4  ,and  
,homer has a very similar strain2 for he

 speaks of one whose fame is--      ,as 
the fame of some blameless king who1    
like a god1     ,maintains justice to   
whom the black earth brings forth       
,wheat and barley1 whose trees are bowed
 with fruit1     ,and his sheep never   
fail to bear1 and the sea gives him     
fish4  ,still grander are the gifts of  
heaven which ,musaeus and his son       
vouchsafe to the just2 they take them   
down into the world below1 where they   
have the saints lying on couches at a   
feast1 everlastingly drunk1 crowned with
 garlands2 their idea seems to be that  
an immortality of drunkenness is the    
highest meed of virtue4  ,some extend   
their rewards yet further2 the          
posterity1 as they say1 of the faithful 
and just shall survive to the third and 
fourth generation4  ,this is the style  
in which they praise justice4  ,but     
about the wicked there is another       
strain2 they bury them in a slough in   
,hades1 and make them carry water in a  
sieve2 also while they are yet living   

they bring them to infamy1 and inflict  
upon them the punishments which ,glaucon
 described as the portion of the just   
who are reputed to be unjust2 nothing   
else does their invention supply4  ,such
 is their manner of praising the one and
 censuring the other4  ,once more1      
,socrates1 ,i will ask you to consider  
another way of speaking about justice   
and injustice1 which is not confined to 
the poets1 but is found in prose        
writers4  ,the universal voice of       
mankind is always declaring that justice
 and virtue are honourable1 but grievous
 and toilsome2 and that the pleasures of
 vice and injustice are easy of         
attainment1 and are only censured by law
 and opinion4  ,they say also that      
honesty is for the most part less       
profitable than dishonesty2 and they are
 quite ready to call wicked men happy1  
and to honour them both in public and   
private when they are rich or in any    
other way influential1 while they       
despise and overlook those who may be   

weak and poor1 even though acknowledging
 them to be better than the others4     
,but most extraordinary of all is their 
mode of speaking about virtue and the   
gods3 they say that the gods apportion  
calamity and misery to many good men1   
and good and happiness to the wicked4   
,and mendicant prophets go to rich men's
 doors and persuade them that they have 
a power committed to them by the gods of
 making an atonement for a man's own or 
his ancestor's sins by sacrifices or    
charms1 with rejoicings and feasts2 and 
they promise to harm an enemy1 whether  
just or unjust1 at a small cost2 with   
magic arts and incantations binding     
heaven1 as they say1 to execute their   
will4  ,and the poets are the           
authorities to whom they appeal1 now    
smoothing the path of vice with the     
words of ,hesiod2--      ,vice may be   
had in abundance without trouble2 the   
way is smooth     and her dwelling-place
 is near4 ,but before virtue the gods   
have     set toil1  and a tedious and   

uphill road3  then citing ,homer as a   
witness that the gods may be influenced 
by men2 for he also says3      ,the     
gods1 too1 may he turned from their     
purpose2 and men pray to     them and   
avert their wrath by sacrifices and     
soothing entreaties1     and by         
libations and the odour of fat1 when    
they have sinned and     transgressed4  
,and they produce a host of books       
written by ,musaeus and ,orpheus1 who   
were children of the ,moon and the      
,muses--that is what they say--according
 to which they perform their ritual1 and
 persuade not only individuals1 but     
whole cities1 that expiations and       
atonements for sin may be made by       
sacrifices and amusements which fill a  
vacant hour1 and are equally at the     
service of the living and the dead2 the 
latter sort they call mysteries1 and    
they redeem us from the pains of hell1  
but if we neglect them no one knows what
 awaits us4  ,he proceeded3  ,and now   
when the young hear all this said about 

virtue and vice1 and the way in which   
gods and men regard them1 how are their 
minds likely to be affected1 my dear    
,socrates1--those of them1 ,i mean1 who 
are quickwitted1 and1 like bees on the  
wing1 light on every flower1 and from   
all that they hear are prone to draw    
conclusions as to what manner of persons
 they should be and in what way they    
should walk if they would make the best 
of life8  ,probably the youth will say  
to himself in the words of ,pindar--    
,can ,i by justice or by crooked ways of
 deceit ascend a loftier     tower which
 may he a fortress to me all my days8   
,for what men say is that1 if ,i am     
really just and am not also thought just
 profit there is none1 but the pain and 
loss on the other hand are unmistakable4
  ,but if1 though unjust1 ,i acquire the
 reputation of justice1 a heavenly life 
is promised to me4  ,since then1 as     
philosophers prove1 appearance          
tyrannizes over truth and is lord of    
happiness1 to appearance ,i must devote 

myself4  ,i will describe around me a   
picture and shadow of virtue to be the  
vestibule and exterior of my house2     
behind ,i will trail the subtle and     
crafty fox1 as ,archilochus1 greatest of
 sages1 recommends4  ,but ,i hear some  
one exclaiming that the concealment of  
wickedness is often difficult2 to which 
,i answer1 ,nothing great is easy4      
,nevertheless1 the argument indicates   
this1 if we would be happy1 to be the   
path along which we should proceed4     
,with a view to concealment we will     
establish secret brotherhoods and       
political clubs4  ,and there are        
professors of rhetoric who teach the art
 of persuading courts and assemblies2   
and so1 partly by persuasion and partly 
by force1 ,i shall make unlawful gains  
and not be punished4  ,still ,i hear a  
voice saying that the gods cannot be    
deceived1 neither can they be compelled4
  ,but what if there are no gods8 or1   
suppose them to have no care of human   
things--why in either case should we    

mind about concealment8  ,and even if   
there are gods1 and they do care about  
us1 yet we know of them only from       
tradition and the genealogies of the    
poets2 and these are the very persons   
who say that they may be influenced and 
turned by 'sacrifices and soothing      
entreaties and by offerings4' ,let us be
 consistent then1 and believe both or   
neither4  ,if the poets speak truly1 why
 then we had better be unjust1 and offer
 of the fruits of injustice2 for if we  
are just1 although we may escape the    
vengeance of heaven1 we shall lose the  
gains of injustice2 but1 if we are      
unjust1 we shall keep the gains1 and by 
our sinning and praying1 and praying and
 sinning1 the gods will be propitiated1 
and we shall not be punished4  ',but    
there is a world below in which either  
we or our posterity will suffer for our 
unjust deeds4' ,yes1 my friend1 will be 
the reflection1 but there are mysteries 
and atoning deities1 and these have     
great power4  ,that is what mighty      

cities declare2 and the children of the 
gods1 who were their poets and prophets1
 bear a like testimony4  ,on what       
principle1 then1 shall we any longer    
choose justice rather than the worst    
injustice8 when1 if we only unite the   
latter with a deceitful regard to       
appearances1 we shall fare to our mind  
both with gods and men1 in life and     
after death1 as the most numerous and   
the highest authorities tell us4        
,knowing all this1 ,socrates1 how can a 
man who has any superiority of mind or  
person or rank or wealth1 be willing to 
honour justice2 or indeed to refrain    
from laughing when he hears justice     
praised8  ,and even if there should be  
some one who is able to disprove the    
truth of my words1 and who is satisfied 
that justice is best1 still he is not   
angry with the unjust1 but is very ready
 to forgive them1 because he also knows 
that men are not just of their own free 
will2 unless1 peradventure1 there be    
some one whom the divinity within him   

may have inspired with a hatred of      
injustice1 or who has attained knowledge
 of the truth--but no other man4  ,he   
only blames injustice who1 owing to     
cowardice or age or some weakness1 has  
not the power of being unjust4  ,and    
this is proved by the fact that when he 
obtains the power1 he immediately       
becomes unjust as far as he can be4     
,the cause of all this1 ,socrates1 was  
indicated by us at the beginning of the 
argument1 when my brother and ,i told   
you how astonished we were to find that 
of all the professing panegyrists of    
justice--beginning with the ancient     
heroes of whom any memorial has been    
preserved to us1 and ending with the men
 of our own time--no one has ever blamed
 injustice or praised justice except    
with a view to the glories1 honours1 and
 benefits which flow from them4  ,no one
 has ever adequately described either in
 verse or prose the true essential      
nature of either of them abiding in the 
soul1 and invisible to any human or     

divine eye2 or shown that of all the    
things of a man's soul which he has     
within him1 justice is the greatest     
good1 and injustice the greatest evil4  
,had this been the universal strain1 had
 you sought to persuade us of this from 
our youth upwards1 we should not have   
been on the watch to keep one another   
from doing wrong1 but every one would   
have been his own watchman1 because     
afraid1 if he did wrong1 of harbouring  
in himself the greatest of evils4  ,i   
dare say that ,thrasymachus and others  
would seriously hold the language which 
,i have been merely repeating1 and words
 even stronger than these about justice 
and injustice1 grossly1 as ,i conceive1 
perverting their true nature4  ,but ,i  
speak in this vehement manner1 as ,i    
must frankly confess to you1 because ,i 
want to hear from you the opposite side2
 and ,i would ask you to show not only  
the superiority which justice has over  
injustice1 but what effect they have on 
the possessor of them which makes the   

one to be a good and the other an evil  
to him4  ,and please1 as ,glaucon       
requested of you1 to exclude            
reputations2 for unless you take away   
from each of them his true reputation   
and add on the false1 we shall say that 
you do not praise justice1 but the      
appearance of it2 we shall think that   
you are only exhorting us to keep       
injustice dark1 and that you really     
agree with ,thrasymachus in thinking    
that justice is another's good and the  
interest of the stronger1 and that      
injustice is a man's own profit and     
interest1 though injurious to the       
weaker4  ,now as you have admitted that 
justice is one of that highest class of 
goods which are desired indeed for their
 results1 but in a far greater degree   
for their own sakes--like sight or      
hearing or knowledge or health1 or any  
other real and natural and not merely   
conventional good--,i would ask you in  
your praise of justice to regard one    
point only3 ,i mean the essential good  

and evil which justice and injustice    
work in the possessors of them4 ,let    
others praise justice and censure       
injustice1 magnifying the rewards and   
honours of the one and abusing the      
other2 that is a manner of arguing      
which1 coming from them1 ,i am ready to 
tolerate1 but from you who have spent   
your whole life in the consideration of 
this question1 unless ,i hear the       
contrary from your own lips1 ,i expect  
something better4  ,and therefore1 ,i   
say1 not only prove to us that justice  
is better than injustice1 but show what 
they either of them do to the possessor 
of them1 which makes the one to be a    
good and the other an evil1 whether seen
 or unseen by gods and men4  ,,socrates 
- ,,adeimantus  ,i had always admired   
the genius of ,glaucon and ,adeimantus1 
but on hearing these words ,i was quite 
delighted1 and said3 ,sons of an        
illustrious father1 that was not a bad  
beginning of the ,elegiac verses which  
the admirer of ,glaucon made in honour  

of you after you had distinguished      
yourselves at the battle of ,megara3--  
',sons of ,ariston1' he sang1 'divine   
offspring of an     illustrious hero4'  
,the epithet is very appropriate1 for   
there is something truly divine in being
 able to argue as you have done for the 
superiority of injustice1 and remaining 
unconvinced by your own arguments4  ,and
 ,i do believe that you are not         
convinced--this ,i infer from your      
general character1 for had ,i judged    
only from your speeches ,i should have  
mistrusted you4  ,but now1 the greater  
my confidence in you1 the greater is my 
difficulty in knowing what to say4  ,for
 ,i am in a strait between two2 on the  
one hand ,i feel that ,i am unequal to  
the task2 and my inability is brought   
home to me by the fact that you were not
 satisfied with the answer which ,i made
 to ,thrasymachus1 proving1 as ,i       
thought1 the superiority which justice  
has over injustice4  ,and yet ,i cannot 
refuse to help1 while breath and speech 

remain to me2 ,i am afraid that there   
would be an impiety in being present    
when justice is evil spoken of and not  
lifting up a hand in her defence4  ,and 
therefore ,i had best give such help as 
,i can4  ,glaucon and the rest entreated
 me by all means not to let the question
 drop1 but to proceed in the            
investigation4  ,they wanted to arrive  
at the truth1 first1 about the nature of
 justice and injustice1 and secondly1   
about their relative advantages4  ,i    
told them1 what ,i really thought1 that 
the enquiry would be of a serious       
nature1 and would require very good     
eyes4  ,seeing then1 ,i said1 that we   
are no great wits1 ,i think that we had 
better adopt a method which ,i may      
illustrate thus2 suppose that a         
short-sighted person had been asked by  
some one to read small letters from a   
distance2 and it occurred to some one   
else that they might be found in another
 place which was larger and in which the
 letters were larger--if they were the  

same and he could read the larger       
letters first1 and then proceed to the  
lesser--this would have been thought a  
rare piece of good fortune4  ,very true1
 said ,adeimantus2 but how does the     
illustration apply to our enquiry8  ,i  
will tell you1 ,i replied2 justice1     
which is the subject of our enquiry1 is1
 as you know1 sometimes spoken of as the
 virtue of an individual1 and sometimes 
as the virtue of a ,state4  ,true1 he   
replied4  ,and is not a ,state larger   
than an individual8  ,it is4  ,then in  
the larger the quantity of justice is   
likely to be larger and more easily     
discernible4  ,i propose therefore that 
we enquire into the nature of justice   
and injustice1 first as they appear in  
the ,state1 and secondly in the         
individual1 proceeding from the greater 
to the lesser and comparing them4       
,that1 he said1 is an excellent         
proposal4  ,and if we imagine the ,state
 in process of creation1 we shall see   
the justice and injustice of the ,state 

in process of creation also4  ,i dare   
say4  ,when the ,state is completed     
there may be a hope that the object of  
our search will be more easily          
discovered4  ,yes1 far more easily4     
,but ought we to attempt to construct   
one8  ,i said2 for to do so1 as ,i am   
inclined to think1 will be a very       
serious task4  ,reflect therefore4  ,i  
have reflected1 said ,adeimantus1 and am
 anxious that you should proceed4  ,a   
,state1 ,i said1 arises1 as ,i conceive1
 out of the needs of mankind2 no one is 
self-sufficing1 but all of us have many 
wants4  ,can any other origin of a      
,state be imagined8  ,there can ,i be no
 other4  ,then1 as we have many wants1  
and many persons are needed to supply   
them1 one takes a helper for one purpose
 and another for another2 and when these
 partners and helpers are gathered      
together in one habitation the body of  
inhabitants is termed a ,state4  ,true1 
he said4  ,and they exchange with one   
another1 and one gives1 and another     

receives1 under the idea that the       
exchange will be for their good4  ,very 
true4  ,then1 ,i said1 let us begin and 
create in idea a ,state2 and yet the    
true creator is necessity1 who is the   
mother of our invention4  ,of course1 he
 replied4  ,now the first and greatest  
of necessities is food1 which is the    
condition of life and existence4        
,certainly4  ,the second is a dwelling1 
and the third clothing and the like4    
,true4  ,and now let us see how our city
 will be able to supply this great      
demand3 ,we may suppose that one man is 
a husbandman1 another a builder1 some   
one else a weaver--shall we add to them 
a shoemaker1 or perhaps some other      
purveyor to our bodily wants8  ,quite   
right4  ,the barest notion of a ,state  
must include four or five men4          
,clearly4  ,and how will they proceed8  
,will each bring the result of his      
labours into a common stock8--the       
individual husbandman1 for example1     
producing for four1 and labouring four  

times as long and as much as he need in 
the provision of food with which he     
supplies others as well as himself2 or  
will he have nothing to do with others  
and not be at the trouble of producing  
for them1 but provide for himself alone 
a fourth of the food in a fourth of the 
time1 and in the remaining three-fourths
 of his time be employed in making a    
house or a coat or a pair of shoes1     
having no partnership with others1 but  
supplying himself all his own wants8    
,adeimantus thought that he should aim  
at producing food only and not at       
producing everything4  ,probably1 ,i    
replied1 that would be the better way2  
and when ,i hear you say this1 ,i am    
myself reminded that we are not all     
alike2 there are diversities of natures 
among us which are adapted to different 
occupations4  ,very true4  ,and will you
 have a work better done when the       
workman has many occupations1 or when he
 has only one8  ,when he has only one4  
,further1 there can be no doubt that a  

work is spoilt when not done at the     
right time8  ,no doubt4  ,for business  
is not disposed to wait until the doer  
of the business is at leisure2 but the  
doer must follow up what he is doing1   
and make the business his first object4 
,he must4  ,and if so1 we must infer    
that all things are produced more       
plentifully and easily and of a better  
quality when one man does one thing     
which is natural to him and does it at  
the right time1 and leaves other things4
  ,undoubtedly44  ,then more than four  
citizens will be required2 for the      
husbandman will not make his own plough 
or mattock1 or other implements of      
agriculture1 if they are to be good for 
anything4  ,neither will the builder    
make his tools--and he too needs many2  
and in like manner the weaver and       
shoemaker4  ,true4  ,then carpenters1   
and smiths1 and many other artisans1    
will be sharers in our little ,state1   
which is already beginning to grow8     
,true4  ,yet even if we add neatherds1  

shepherds1 and other herdsmen1 in order 
that our husbandmen may have oxen to    
plough with1 and builders as well as    
husbandmen may have draught cattle1 and 
curriers and weavers fleeces and        
hides1--still our ,state will not be    
very large4  ,that is true2 yet neither 
will it be a very small ,state which    
contains all these4  ,then1 again1 there
 is the situation of the city--to find a
 place where nothing need be imported is
 well-nigh impossible4  ,impossible4    
,then there must be another class of    
citizens who will bring the required    
supply from another city8  ,there must4 
,but if the trader goes empty-handed1   
having nothing which they require who   
would supply his need1 he will come back
 empty-handed4  ,that is certain4  ,and 
therefore what they produce at home must
 be not only enough for themselves1 but 
such both in quantity and quality as to 
accommodate those from whom their wants 
are supplied4  ,very true4  ,then more  
husbandmen and more artisans will be    

required8  ,they will4  ,not to mention 
the importers and exporters1 who are    
called merchants8  ,yes4  ,then we shall
 want merchants8  ,we shall4  ,and if   
merchandise is to be carried over the   
sea1 skilful sailors will also be       
needed1 and in considerable numbers8    
,yes1 in considerable numbers4  ,then1  
again1 within the city1 how will they   
exchange their productions8 ,to secure  
such an exchange was1 as you will       
remember1 one of our principal objects  
when we formed them into a society and  
constituted a ,state4  ,clearly they    
will buy and sell4  ,then they will need
 a market-place1 and a money-token for  
purposes of exchange4  ,certainly4      
,suppose now that a husbandman1 or an   
artisan1 brings some production to      
market1 and he comes at a time when     
there is no one to exchange with        
him1--is he to leave his calling and sit
 idle in the market-place8  ,not at all2
 he will find people there who1 seeing  
the want1 undertake the office of       

salesmen4  ,in well-ordered ,states they
 are commonly those who are the weakest 
in bodily strength1 and therefore of    
little use for any other purpose2 their 
duty is to be in the market1 and to give
 money in exchange for goods to those   
who desire to sell and to take money    
from those who desire to buy4  ,this    
want1 then1 creates a class of          
retail-traders in our ,state4  ,is not  
'retailer' the term which is applied to 
those who sit in the market-place       
engaged in buying and selling1 while    
those who wander from one city to       
another are called merchants8  ,yes1 he 
said4  ,and there is another class of   
servants1 who are intellectually hardly 
on the level of companionship2 still    
they have plenty of bodily strength for 
labour1 which accordingly they sell1 and
 are called1 if ,i do not mistake1      
hirelings1 hire being the name which is 
given to the price of their labour4     
,true4  ,then hirelings will help to    
make up our population8  ,yes4  ,and    

now1 ,adeimantus1 is our ,state matured 
and perfected8  ,i think so4  ,where1   
then1 is justice1 and where is          
injustice1 and in what part of the      
,state did they spring up8  ,probably in
 the dealings of these citizens with one
 another4  cannot imagine that they are 
more likely to be found anywhere else4  
,i dare say that you are right in your  
suggestion1 ,i said2 we had better think
 the matter out1 and not shrink from the
 enquiry4  ,let us then consider1 first 
of all1 what will be their way of life1 
now that we have thus established them4 
,will they not produce corn1 and wine1  
and clothes1 and shoes1 and build houses
 for themselves8  ,and when they are    
housed1 they will work1 in summer1      
commonly1 stripped and barefoot1 but in 
winter substantially clothed and shod4  
,they will feed on barley-meal and flour
 of wheat1 baking and kneading them1    
making noble cakes and loaves2 these    
they will serve up on a mat of reeds or 
on clean leaves1 themselves reclining   

the while upon beds strewn with yew or  
myrtle4  ,and they and their children   
will feast1 drinking of the wine which  
they have made1 wearing garlands on     
their heads1 and hymning the praises of 
the gods1 in happy converse with one    
another4  ,and they will take care that 
their families do not exceed their      
means2 having an eye to poverty or war4 
,,socrates - ,,glaucon  ,but1 said      
,glaucon1 interposing1 you have not     
given them a relish to their meal4      
,true1 ,i replied1 ,i had forgotten2 of 
course they must have a relish-salt1 and
 olives1 and cheese1 and they will boil 
roots and herbs such as country people  
prepare2 for a dessert we shall give    
them figs1 and peas1 and beans2 and they
 will roast myrtle-berries and acorns at
 the fire1 drinking in moderation4  ,and
 with such a diet they may be expected  
to live in peace and health to a good   
old age1 and bequeath a similar life to 
their children after them4  ,yes1       
,socrates1 he said1 and if you were     

providing for a city of pigs1 how else  
would you feed the beasts8  ,but what   
would you have1 ,glaucon8  ,i replied4  
,why1 he said1 you should give them the 
ordinary conveniences of life4 ,people  
who are to be comfortable are accustomed
 to lie on sofas1 and dine off tables1  
and they should have sauces and sweets  
in the modern style4  ,yes1 ,i said1 now
 ,i understand3  the question which you 
would have me consider is1 not only how 
a ,state1 but how a luxurious ,state is 
created2 and possibly there is no harm  
in this1 for in such a ,state we shall  
be more likely to see how justice and   
injustice originate4  ,in my opinion the
 true and healthy constitution of the   
,state is the one which ,i have         
described4  ,but if you wish also to see
 a ,state at fever heat1 ,i have no     
objection4  ,for ,i suspect that many   
will not be satisfied with the simpler  
way of way ,they will be for adding     
sofas1 and tables1 and other furniture2 
also dainties1 and perfumes1 and        

incense1 and courtesans1 and cakes1 all 
these not of one sort only1 but in every
 variety2 we must go beyond the         
necessaries of which ,i was at first    
speaking1 such as houses1 and clothes1  
and shoes3 the arts of the painter and  
the embroiderer will have to be set in  
motion1 and gold and ivory and all sorts
 of materials must be procured4  ,true1 
he said4  ,then we must enlarge our     
borders2 for the original healthy ,state
 is no longer sufficient4  ,now will the
 city have to fill and swell with a     
multitude of callings which are not     
required by any natural want2 such as   
the whole tribe of hunters and actors1  
of whom one large class have to do with 
forms and colours2 another will be the  
votaries of music--poets and their      
attendant train of rhapsodists1 players1
 dancers1 contractors2 also makers of   
divers kinds of articles1 including     
women's dresses4  ,and we shall want    
more servants4  ,will not tutors be also
 in request1 and nurses wet and dry1    

tirewomen and barbers1 as well as       
confectioners and cooks2 and swineherds1
 too1 who were not needed and therefore 
had no place in the former edition of   
our ,state1 but are needed now8  ,they  
must not be forgotten3  and there will  
be animals of many other kinds1 if      
people eat them4  ,certainly4  ,and     
living in this way we shall have much   
greater need of physicians than before8 
,much greater4  ,and the country which  
was enough to support the original      
inhabitants will be too small now1 and  
not enough8  ,quite true4  ,then a slice
 of our neighbours' land will be wanted 
by us for pasture and tillage1 and they 
will want a slice of ours1 if1 like     
ourselves1 they exceed the limit of     
necessity1 and give themselves up to the
 unlimited accumulation of wealth8      
,that1 ,socrates1 will be inevitable4   
,and so we shall go to war1 ,glaucon4   
,shall we not8  ,most certainly1 he     
replied4  ,then without determining as  
yet whether war does good or harm1 thus 

much we may affirm1 that now we have    
discovered war to be derived from causes
 which are also the causes of almost all
 the evils in ,states1 private as well  
as public4  ,undoubtedly4  ,and our     
,state must once more enlarge2 and this 
time the will be nothing short of a     
whole army1 which will have to go out   
and fight with the invaders for all that
 we have1 as well as for the things and 
persons whom we were describing above4  
,why8 he said2 are they not capable of  
defending themselves8  ,no1 ,i said2 not
 if we were right in the principle which
 was acknowledged by all of us when we  
were framing the ,state3 the principle1 
as you will remember1 was that one man  
cannot practise many arts with success4 
,very true1 he said4  ,but is not war an
 art8  ,certainly4  ,and an art         
requiring as much attention as          
shoemaking8  ,quite true4  ,and the     
shoemaker was not allowed by us to be   
husbandman1 or a weaver1 a builder--in  
order that we might have our shoes well 

made2 but to him and to every other     
worker was assigned one work for which  
he was by nature fitted1 and at that he 
was to continue working all his life    
long and at no other2 he was not to let 
opportunities slip1 and then he would   
become a good workman4  ,now nothing can
 be more important than that the work of
 a soldier should be well done4  ,but is
 war an art so easily acquired that a   
man may be a warrior who is also a      
husbandman1 or shoemaker1 or other      
artisan2 although no one in the world   
would be a good dice or draught player  
who merely took up the game as a        
recreation1 and had not from his        
earliest years devoted himself to this  
and nothing else8  ,no tools will make a
 man a skilled workman1 or master of    
defence1 nor be of any use to him who   
has not learned how to handle them1 and 
has never bestowed any attention upon   
them4  ,how then will he who takes up a 
shield or other implement of war become 
a good fighter all in a day1 whether    

with heavy-armed or any other kind of   
troops8  ,yes1 he said1 the tools which 
would teach men their own use would be  
beyond price4  ,and the higher the      
duties of the guardian1 ,i said1 the    
more time1 and skill1 and art1 and      
application will be needed by him8  ,no 
doubt1 he replied4  ,will he not also   
require natural aptitude for his        
calling8  ,certainly4  ,then it will be 
our duty to select1 if we can1 natures  
which are fitted for the task of        
guarding the city8  ,it will4  ,and the 
selection will be no easy matter1 ,i    
said2 but we must be brave and do our   
best4  ,we must4  ,is not the noble     
youth very like a well-bred dog in      
respect of guarding and watching8  ,what
 do you mean8  ,i mean that both of them
 ought to be quick to see1 and swift to 
overtake the enemy when they see him2   
and strong too if1 when they have caught
 him1 they have to fight with him4  ,all
 these qualities1 he replied1 will      
certainly be required by them4  ,well1  

and your guardian must be brave if he is
 to fight well8  ,certainly4  ,and is he
 likely to be brave who has no spirit1  
whether horse or dog or any other       
animal8  ,have you never observed how   
invincible and unconquerable is spirit  
and how the presence of it makes the    
soul of any creature to be absolutely   
fearless and indomitable8  ,i have4     
,then now we have a clear notion of the 
bodily qualities which are required in  
the guardian4  ,true4  ,and also of the 
mental ones2 his soul is to be full of  
spirit8  ,yes4  ,but are not these      
spirited natures apt to be savage with  
one another1 and with everybody else8   
,a difficulty by no means easy to       
overcome1 he replied4  ,whereas1 ,i     
said1 they ought to be dangerous to     
their enemies1 and gentle to their      
friends2 if not1 they will destroy      
themselves without waiting for their    
enemies to destroy them4  ,true1 he     
said4  ,what is to be done then8  ,i    
said2 how shall we find a gentle nature 

which has also a great spirit1 for the  
one is the contradiction of the other8  
,true4  ,he will not be a good guardian 
who is wanting in either of these two   
qualities2 and yet the combination of   
them appears to be impossible2 and hence
 we must infer that to be a good        
guardian is impossible4  ,i am afraid   
that what you say is true1 he replied4  
,here feeling perplexed ,i began to     
think over what had preceded4  ,my      
friend1 ,i said1 no wonder that we are  
in a perplexity2 for we have lost sight 
of the image which we had before us4    
,what do you mean8 he said4  ,i mean to 
say that there do exist natures gifted  
with those opposite qualities4  ,and    
where do you find them8  ,many animals1 
,i replied1 furnish examples of them2   
our friend the dog is a very good one3  
you know that well-bred dogs are        
perfectly gentle to their familiars and 
acquaintances1 and the reverse to       
strangers4  ,yes1 ,i know4  ,then there 
is nothing impossible or out of the     

order of nature in our finding a        
guardian who has a similar combination  
of qualities8  ,certainly not4  ,would  
not he who is fitted to be a guardian1  
besides the spirited nature1 need to    
have the qualities of a philosopher8  ,i
 do not apprehend your meaning4  ,the   
trait of which ,i am speaking1 ,i       
replied1 may be also seen in the dog1   
and is remarkable in the animal4  ,what 
trait8  ,why1 a dog1 whenever he sees a 
stranger1 is angry2 when an             
acquaintance1 he welcomes him1 although 
the one has never done him any harm1 nor
 the other any good4  ,did this never   
strike you as curious8  ,the matter     
never struck me before2 but ,i quite    
recognise the truth of your remark4     
,and surely this instinct of the dog is 
very charming2--your dog is a true      
philosopher4  ,why8  ,why1 because he   
distinguishes the face of a friend and  
of an enemy only by the criterion of    
knowing and not knowing4  ,and must not 
an animal be a lover of learning who    

determines what he likes and dislikes by
 the test of knowledge and ignorance8   
,most assuredly4  ,and is not the love  
of learning the love of wisdom1 which is
 philosophy8  ,they are the same1 he    
replied4  ,and may we not say           
confidently of man also1 that he who is 
likely to be gentle to his friends and  
acquaintances1 must by nature be a lover
 of wisdom and knowledge8  ,that we may 
safely affirm4  ,then he who is to be a 
really good and noble guardian of the   
,state will require to unite in himself 
philosophy and spirit and swiftness and 
strength8  ,undoubtedly4  ,then we have 
found the desired natures2 and now that 
we have found them1 how are they to be  
reared and educated8  ,is not this      
enquiry which may be expected to throw  
light on the greater enquiry which is   
our final end--,how do justice and      
injustice grow up in ,states8 for we do 
not want either to omit what is to the  
point or to draw out the argument to an 
inconvenient length4  ,,socrates -      

,,adeimantus  ,adeimantus thought that  
the enquiry would be of great service to
 us4  ,then1 ,i said1 my dear friend1   
the task must not be given up1 even if  
somewhat long4  ,certainly not4  ,come  
then1 and let us pass a leisure hour in 
story-telling1 and our story shall be   
the education of our heroes4  ,by all   
means4  ,and what shall be their        
education8  ,can we find a better than  
the traditional sort8--and this has two 
divisions1 gymnastic for the body1 and  
music for the soul4  ,true4  ,shall we  
begin education with music1 and go on to
 gymnastic afterwards8  ,by all means4  
,and when you speak of music1 do you    
include literature or not8  ,i do4  ,and
 literature may be either true or false8
  ,yes4  ,and the young should be       
trained in both kinds1 and we begin with
 the false8  ,i do not understand your  
meaning1 he said4  ,you know1 ,i said1  
that we begin by telling children       
stories which1 though not wholly        
destitute of truth1 are in the main     

fictitious2 and these stories are told  
them when they are not of an age to     
learn gymnastics4  ,very true4  ,that   
was my meaning when ,i said that we must
 teach music before gymnastics4  ,quite 
right1 he said4  ,you know also that the
 beginning is the most important part of
 any work1 especially in the case of a  
young and tender thing2 for that is the 
time at which the character is being    
formed and the desired impression is    
more readily taken4  ,quite true4  ,and 
shall we just carelessly allow children 
to hear any casual tales which may be   
devised by casual persons1 and to       
receive into their minds ideas for the  
most part the very opposite of those    
which we should wish them to have when  
they are grown up8  ,we cannot4  ,then  
the first thing will be to establish a  
censorship of the writers of fiction1   
and let the censors receive any tale of 
fiction which is good1 and reject the   
bad2 and we will desire mothers and     
nurses to tell their children the       

authorised ones only4  ,let them fashion
 the mind with such tales1 even more    
fondly than they mould the body with    
their hands2 but most of those which are
 now in use must be discarded4  ,of what
 tales are you speaking8 he said4  ,you 
may find a model of the lesser in the   
greater1 ,i said2 for they are          
necessarily of the same type1 and there 
is the same spirit in both of them4     
,very likely1 he replied2 but ,i do not 
as yet know what you would term the     
greater4  ,those1 ,i said1 which are    
narrated by ,homer and ,hesiod1 and the 
rest of the poets1 who have ever been   
the great story-tellers of mankind4     
,but which stories do you mean1 he said2
 and what fault do you find with them8  
,a fault which is most serious1 ,i said2
 the fault of telling a lie1 and1 what  
is more1 a bad lie4  ,but when is this  
fault committed8  ,whenever an erroneous
 representation is made of the nature of
 gods and heroes1--as when a painter    
paints a portrait not having the shadow 

of a likeness to the original4  ,yes1 he
 said1 that sort of thing is certainly  
very blamable2 but what are the stories 
which you mean8  ,first of all1 ,i said1
 there was that greatest of all lies1 in
 high places1 which the poet told about 
,uranus1 and which was a bad lie        
too1--,i mean what ,hesiod says that    
,uranus did1 and how ,cronus retaliated 
on him4  ,the doings of ,cronus1 and the
 sufferings which in turn his son       
inflicted upon him1 even if they were   
true1 ought certainly not to be lightly 
told to young and thoughtless persons2  
if possible1 they had better be buried  
in silence4  ,but if there is an        
absolute necessity for their mention1 a 
chosen few might hear them in a mystery1
 and they should sacrifice not a common 
,eleusinian pig1 but some huge and      
unprocurable victim2 and then the number
 of the hearers will be very few indeed4
  ,why1 yes1 said he1 those stories are 
extremely objectionable4  ,yes1         
,adeimantus1 they are stories not to be 

repeated in our ,state2 the young man   
should not be told that in committing   
the worst of crimes he is far from doing
 anything outrageous2 and that even if  
he chastises his father when does wrong1
 in whatever manner1 he will only be    
following the example of the first and  
greatest among the gods4  ,i entirely   
agree with you1 he said2 in my opinion  
those stories are quite unfit to be     
repeated4  ,neither1 if we mean our     
future guardians to regard the habit of 
quarrelling among themselves as of all  
things the basest1 should any word be   
said to them of the wars in heaven1 and 
of the plots and fightings of the gods  
against one another1 for they are not   
true4  ,no1 we shall never mention the  
battles of the giants1 or let them be   
embroidered on garments2 and we shall be
 silent about the innumerable other     
quarrels of gods and heroes with their  
friends and relatives4  ,if they would  
only believe us we would tell them that 
quarrelling is unholy1 and that never up

 to this time has there been any1       
quarrel between citizens2 this is what  
old men and old women should begin by   
telling children2 and when they grow up1
 the poets also should be told to       
compose for them in a similar spirit4   
,but the narrative of ,hephaestus       
binding ,here his mother1 or how on     
another occasion ,zeus sent him flying  
for taking her part when she was being  
beaten1 and all the battles of the gods 
in ,homer--these tales must not be      
admitted into our ,state1 whether they  
are supposed to have an allegorical     
meaning or not4  ,for a young person    
cannot judge what is allegorical and    
what is literal2 anything that he       
receives into his mind at that age is   
likely to become indelible and          
unalterable2 and therefore it is most   
important that the tales which the young
 first hear should be models of virtuous
 thoughts4  ,there you are right1 he    
replied2 but if any one asks where are  
such models to be found and of what     

tales are you speaking--how shall we    
answer him8  ,i said to him1 ,you and   
,i1 ,adeimantus1 at this moment are not 
poets1 but founders of a ,state3  now   
the founders of a ,state ought to know  
the general forms in which poets should 
cast their tales1 and the limits which  
must be observed by them1 but to make   
the tales is not their business4  ,very 
true1 he said2 but what are these forms 
of theology which you mean8  ,something 
of this kind1 ,i replied3--,god is      
always to be represented as he truly is1
 whatever be the sort of poetry1 epic1  
lyric or tragic1 in which the           
representation is given4  ,right4  ,and 
is he not truly good8 and must he not be
 represented as such8  ,certainly4  ,and
 no good thing is hurtful8  ,no1 indeed4
  ,and that which is not hurtful hurts  
not8  ,certainly not4  ,and that which  
hurts not does no evil8  ,no4  ,and can 
that which does no evil be a cause of   
evil8  ,impossible4  ,and the good is   
advantageous8  ,yes4  ,and therefore the

 cause of well-being8  ,yes4  ,it       
follows therefore that the good is not  
the cause of all things1 but of the good
 only8  ,assuredly4  ,then ,god1 if he  
be good1 is not the author of all       
things1 as the many assert1 but he is   
the cause of a few things only1 and not 
of most things that occur to men4  ,for 
few are the goods of human life1 and    
many are the evils1 and the good is to  
be attributed to ,god alone2 of the     
evils the causes are to be sought       
elsewhere1 and not in him4  ,that       
appears to me to be most true1 he said4 
,then we must not listen to ,homer or to
 any other poet who is guilty of the    
folly of saying that two casks      ,lie
 at the threshold of ,zeus1 full of     
lots1 one of good1     the other of evil
 lots1  and that he to whom ,zeus gives 
a mixture of the two      ,sometimes    
meets with evil fortune1 at other times 
with good2  but that he to whom is given
 the cup of unmingled ill1      ,him    
wild hunger drives o'er the beauteous   

earth4  ,and again      ,zeus1 who is   
the dispenser of good and evil to us4   
,and if any one asserts that the        
violation of oaths and treaties1 which  
was really the work of ,pandarus1 was   
brought about by ,athene and ,zeus1 or  
that the strife and contention of the   
gods was instigated by ,themis and      
,zeus1 he shall not have our approval2  
neither will we allow our young men to  
hear the words of ,aeschylus1 that      
,god plants guilt among men when he     
desires utterly to     destroy a house4 
,and if a poet writes of the sufferings 
of ,niobe--the subject of the tragedy in
 which these iambic verses occur--or of 
the house of ,pelops1 or of the ,trojan 
war or on any similar theme1 either we  
must not permit him to say that these   
are the works of ,god1 or if they are of
 ,god1 he must devise some explanation  
of them such as we are seeking2 he must 
say that ,god did what was just and     
right1 and they were the better for     
being punished2 but that those who are  

punished are miserable1 and that ,god is
 the author of their misery--the poet is
 not to be permitted to say2 though he  
may say that the wicked are miserable   
because they require to be punished1 and
 are benefited by receiving punishment  
from ,god2 but that ,god being good is  
the author of evil to any one is to be  
strenuously denied1 and not to be said  
or sung or heard in verse or prose by   
any one whether old or young in any     
well-ordered commonwealth4 ,such a      
fiction is suicidal1 ruinous1 impious4  
,i agree with you1 he replied1 and am   
ready to give my assent to the law4     
,let this then be one of our rules and  
principles concerning the gods1 to which
 our poets and reciters will be expected
 to conform--that ,god is not the author
 of all things1 but of good only4  ,that
 will do1 he said4  ,and what do you    
think of a second principle8  ,shall ,i 
ask you whether ,god is a magician1 and 
of a nature to appear insidiously now in
 one shape1 and now in                  

another--sometimes himself changing and 
passing into many forms1 sometimes      
deceiving us with the semblance of such 
transformations2 or is he one and the   
same immutably fixed in his own proper  
image8  ,i cannot answer you1 he said1  
without more thought4  ,well1 ,i said2  
but if we suppose a change in anything1 
that change must be effected either by  
the thing itself1 or by some other      
thing8  ,most certainly4  ,and things   
which are at their best are also least  
liable to be altered or discomposed2 for
 example1 when healthiest and strongest1
 the human frame is least liable to be  
affected by meats and drinks1 and the   
plant which is in the fullest vigour    
also suffers least from winds or the    
heat of the sun or any similar causes4  
,of course4  ,and will not the bravest  
and wisest soul be least confused or    
deranged by any external influence8     
,true4  ,and the same principle1 as ,i  
should suppose1 applies to all composite
 things--furniture1 houses1 garments2   

when good and well made1 they are least 
altered by time and circumstances4      
,very true4  ,then everything which is  
good1 whether made by art or nature1 or 
both1 is least liable to suffer change  
from without8  ,true4  ,but surely ,god 
and the things of ,god are in every way 
perfect8  ,of course they are4  ,then he
 can hardly be compelled by external    
influence to take many shapes8  ,he     
cannot4  ,but may he not change and     
transform himself8  ,clearly1 he said1  
that must be the case if he is changed  
at all4  ,and will he then change       
himself for the better and fairer1 or   
for the worse and more unsightly8  ,if  
he change at all he can only change for 
the worse1 for we cannot suppose him to 
be deficient either in virtue or beauty4
  ,very true1 ,adeimantus2 but then1    
would any one1 whether ,god or man1     
desire to make himself worse8           
,impossible4  ,then it is impossible    
that ,god should ever be willing to     
change2 being1 as is supposed1 the      

fairest and best that is conceivable1   
every god remains absolutely and for    
ever in his own form4  ,that necessarily
 follows1 he said1 in my judgment4      
,then1 ,i said1 my dear friend1 let none
 of the poets tell us that      ,the    
gods1 taking the disguise of strangers  
from other lands1     walk up and down  
cities in all sorts of forms2  and let  
no one slander ,proteus and ,thetis1    
neither let any one1 either in tragedy  
or in any other kind of poetry1         
introduce ,here disguised in the        
likeness of a priestess asking an alms  
,for the life-giving daughters of       
,inachus the river of ,argos2  --let us 
have no more lies of that sort4         
,neither must we have mothers under the 
influence of the poets scaring their    
children with a bad version of these    
myths--telling how certain gods1 as they
 say1 ',go about by night in the        
likeness of so many strangers and in    
divers forms'2 but let them take heed   
lest they make cowards of their         

children1 and at the same time speak    
blasphemy against the gods4  ,heaven    
forbid1 he said4  ,but although the gods
 are themselves unchangeable1 still by  
witchcraft and deception they may make  
us think that they appear in various    
forms8  ,perhaps1 he replied4  ,well1   
but can you imagine that ,god will be   
willing to lie1 whether in word or deed1
 or to put forth a phantom of himself8  
,i cannot say1 he replied4  ,do you not 
know1 ,i said1 that the true lie1 if    
such an expression may be allowed1 is   
hated of gods and men8  ,what do you    
mean8 he said4  ,i mean that no one is  
willingly deceived in that which is the 
truest and highest part of himself1 or  
about the truest and highest matters2   
there1 above all1 he is most afraid of a
 lie having possession of him4  ,still1 
he said1 ,i do not comprehend you4  ,the
 reason is1 ,i replied1 that you        
attribute some profound meaning to my   
words2 but ,i am only saying that       
deception1 or being deceived or         

uninformed about the highest realities  
in the highest part of themselves1 which
 is the soul1 and in that part of them  
to have and to hold the lie1 is what    
mankind least like2--that1 ,i say1 is   
what they utterly detest4  ,there is    
nothing more hateful to them4  ,and1 as 
,i was just now remarking1 this         
ignorance in the soul of him who is     
deceived may be called the true lie2 for
 the lie in words is only a kind of     
imitation and shadowy image of a        
previous affection of the soul1 not pure
 unadulterated falsehood4  ,am ,i not   
right8  ,perfectly right4  ,the true lie
 is hated not only by the gods1 but also
 by men8  ,yes4  ,whereas the lie in    
words is in certain cases useful and not
 hateful2 in dealing with enemies--that 
would be an instance2 or again1 when    
those whom we call our friends in a fit 
of madness or illusion are going to do  
some harm1 then it is useful and is a   
sort of medicine or preventive2 also in 
the tales of mythology1 of which we were

 just now speaking--because we do not   
know the truth about ancient times1 we  
make falsehood as much like truth as we 
can1 and so turn it to account4  ,very  
true1 he said4  ,but can any of these   
reasons apply to ,god8  ,can we suppose 
that he is ignorant of antiquity1 and   
therefore has recourse to invention8    
,that would be ridiculous1 he said4     
,then the lying poet has no place in our
 idea of ,god8  ,i should say not4  ,or 
perhaps he may tell a lie because he is 
afraid of enemies8  ,that is            
inconceivable4  ,but he may have friends
 who are senseless or mad8  ,but no mad 
or senseless person can be a friend of  
,god4  ,then no motive can be imagined  
why ,god should lie8  ,none whatever4   
,then the superhuman and divine is      
absolutely incapable of falsehood8      
,yes4  ,then is ,god perfectly simple   
and true both in word and deed2 he      
changes not2 he deceives not1 either by 
sign or word1 by dream or waking vision4
  ,your thoughts1 he said1 are the      

reflection of my own4  ,you agree with  
me then1 ,i said1 that this is the      
second type or form in which we should  
write and speak about divine things4    
,the gods are not magicians who         
transform themselves1 neither do they   
deceive mankind in any way4  ,i grant   
that4  ,then1 although we are admirers  
of ,homer1 we do not admire the lying   
dream which ,zeus sends to ,agamemnon2  
neither will we praise the verses of    
,aeschylus in which ,thetis says that   
,apollo at her nuptials      ,was       
celebrating in song her fair progeny    
whose days were     to be long1 and to  
know no sickness4 ,and when he had      
spoken of my lot as in all things       
blessed of heaven he     raised a note  
of triumph and cheered my soul4 ,and ,i 
thought that the word of ,phoebus being 
divine and full     of prophecy1 would  
not fail4 ,and now he himself who       
uttered the strain1 he who was present  
at the banquet1     and who said        
this--he it is who has slain my son4    

,these are the kind of sentiments about 
the gods which will arouse our anger2   
and he who utters them shall be refused 
a chorus2 neither shall we allow        
teachers to make use of them in the     
instruction of the young1 meaning1 as we
 do1 that our guardians1 as far as men  
can be1 should be true worshippers of   
the gods and like them4  ,i entirely    
agree1 be said1 in these principles1 and
 promise to make them my laws4          
,,book ,,iii   ,,socrates - ,,adeimantus
  ,,such then1 ,i said1 are our         
principles of theology--some tales are  
to be told1 and others are not to be    
told to our disciples from their youth  
upwards1 if we mean them to honour the  
gods and their parents1 and to value    
friendship with one another4  ,yes2 and 
,i think that our principles are right1 
he said4  ,but if they are to be        
courageous1 must they not learn other   
lessons besides these1 and lessons of   
such a kind as will take away the fear  
of death8  ,can any man be courageous   

who has the fear of death in him8       
,certainly not1 he said4  ,and can he be
 fearless of death1 or will he choose   
death in battle rather than defeat and  
slavery1 who believes the world below to
 be real and terrible8  ,impossible4    
,then we must assume a control over the 
narrators of this class of tales as well
 as over the others1 and beg them not   
simply to but rather to commend the     
world below1 intimating to them that    
their descriptions are untrue1 and will 
do harm to our future warriors4  ,that  
will be our duty1 he said4  ,then1 ,i   
said1 we shall have to obliterate many  
obnoxious passages1 beginning with the  
verses1      ,i would rather he a serf  
on the land of a poor and portionless   
man than rule over all the dead who have
 come to nought4  ,we must also expunge 
the verse1 which tells us how ,pluto    
feared1      ,lest the mansions grim and
 squalid which the gods abhor should    
be seen both of mortals and immortals4  
,and again3      ,o heavens6 verily in  

the house of ,hades there is soul and   
ghostly form but no mind at all6  ,again
 of ,tiresias3--      ,to him even after
 death did ,persephone grant mind1 that 
he     alone should be wise2 but the    
other souls are flitting shades4        
,again3--      ,the soul flying from the
 limbs had gone to ,hades1 lamentng her 
fate1 leaving manhood and youth4        
,again3--      ,and the soul1 with      
shrilling cry1 passed like smoke beneath
 the     earth4  ,and1--      ,as bats  
in hollow of mystic cavern1 whenever any
 of the has     dropped out of the      
string and falls from the rock1 fly     
shrilling     and cling to one another1 
so did they with shrilling cry hold     
together as they moved4  ,and we must   
beg ,homer and the other poets not to be
 angry if we strike out these and       
similar passages1 not because they are  
unpoetical1 or unattractive to the      
popular ear1 but because the greater the
 poetical charm of them1 the less are   
they meet for the ears of boys and men  

who are meant to be free1 and who should
 fear slavery more than death4          
,undoubtedly4  ,also we shall have to   
reject all the terrible and appalling   
names describe the world below--,cocytus
 and ,styx1 ghosts under the earth1 and 
sapless shades1 and any similar words of
 which the very mention causes a shudder
 to pass through the inmost soul of him 
who hears them4  ,i do not say that     
these horrible stories may not have a   
use of some kind2 but there is a danger 
that the nerves of our guardians may be 
rendered too excitable and effeminate by
 them4  ,there is a real danger1 he     
said4  ,then we must have no more of    
them4  ,true4  ,another and a nobler    
strain must be composed and sung by us4 
,clearly4  ,and shall we proceed to get 
rid of the weepings and wailings of     
famous men8  ,they will go with the     
rest4  ,but shall we be right in getting
 rid of them8  ,reflect3  our principle 
is that the good man will not consider  
death terrible to any other good man who

 is his comrade4  ,yes2 that is our     
principle4  ,and therefore he will not  
sorrow for his departed friend as though
 he had suffered anything terrible8  ,he
 will not4  ,such an one1 as we further 
maintain1 is sufficient for himself and 
his own happiness1 and therefore is     
least in need of other men4  ,true1 he  
said4  ,and for this reason the loss of 
a son or brother1 or the deprivation of 
fortune1 is to him of all men least     
terrible4  ,assuredly4  ,and therefore  
he will be least likely to lament1 and  
will bear with the greatest equanimity  
any misfortune of this sort which may   
befall him4  ,yes1 he will feel such a  
misfortune far less than another4  ,then
 we shall be right in getting rid of the
 lamentations of famous men1 and making 
them over to women 7and not even to     
women who are good for anything71 or to 
men of a baser sort1 that those who are 
being educated by us to be the defenders
 of their country may scorn to do the   
like4  ,that will be very right4  ,then 

we will once more entreat ,homer and the
 other poets not to depict ,achilles1   
who is the son of a goddess1 first lying
 on his side1 then on his back1 and then
 on his face2 then starting up and      
sailing in a frenzy along the shores of 
the barren sea2 now taking the sooty    
ashes in both his hands and pouring them
 over his head1 or weeping and wailing  
in the various modes which ,homer has   
delineated4  ,nor should he describe    
,priam the kinsman of the gods as       
praying and beseeching1      ,rolling in
 the dirt1 calling each man loudly by   
his name4  ,still more earnestly will we
 beg of him at all events not to        
introduce the gods lamenting and saying1
      ,alas6 my misery6 ,alas6 that ,i  
bore the harvest to my sorrow4  ,but if 
he must introduce the gods1 at any rate 
let him not dare so completely to       
misrepresent the greatest of the gods1  
as to make him say--      ,o heavens6   
with my eyes verily ,i behold a dear    
friend of mine     chased round and     

round the city1 and my heart is         
sorrowful4  ,or again3--      ,woe is me
 that ,i am fated to have ,sarpedon1    
dearest of men to     me1 subdued at the
 hands of ,patroclus the son of         
,menoetius4  ,for if1 my sweet          
,adeimantus1 our youth seriously listen 
to such unworthy representations of the 
gods1 instead of laughing at them as    
they ought1 hardly will any of them deem
 that he himself1 being but a man1 can  
be dishonoured by similar actions2      
neither will he rebuke any inclination  
which may arise in his mind to say and  
do the like4  ,and instead of having any
 shame or self-control1 he will be      
always whining and lamenting on slight  
occasions4  ,yes1 he said1 that is most 
true4  ,yes1 ,i replied2 but that surely
 is what ought not to be1 as the        
argument has just proved to us2 and by  
that proof we must abide until it is    
disproved by a better4  ,it ought not to
 be4  ,neither ought our guardians to be
 given to laughter4  ,for a fit of      

laughter which has been indulged to     
excess almost always produces a violent 
reaction4  ,so ,i believe4  ,then       
persons of worth1 even if only mortal   
men1 must not be represented as overcome
 by laughter1 and still less must such a
 representation of the gods be allowed4 
,still less of the gods1 as you say1 he 
replied4  ,then we shall not suffer such
 an expression to be used about the gods
 as that of ,homer when he describes how
      ,inextinguishable laughter arose  
among the blessed gods1 when     they   
saw ,hephaestus bustling about the      
mansion4  ,on your views1 we must not   
admit them4  ,on my views1 if you like  
to father them on me2 that we must not  
admit them is certain4  ,again1 truth   
should be highly valued2 if1 as we were 
saying1 a lie is useless to the gods1   
and useful only as a medicine to men1   
then the use of such medicines should be
 restricted to physicians2 private      
individuals have no business with them4 
,clearly not1 he said4  ,then if any one

 at all is to have the privilege of     
lying1 the rulers of the ,state should  
be the persons2 and they1 in their      
dealings either with enemies or with    
their own citizens1 may be allowed to   
lie for the public good4  ,but nobody   
else should meddle with anything of the 
kind2 and although the rulers have this 
privilege1 for a private man to lie to  
them in return is to be deemed a more   
heinous fault than for the patient or   
the pupil of a gymnasium not to speak   
the truth about his own bodily illnesses
 to the physician or to the trainer1 or 
for a sailor not to tell the captain    
what is happening about the ship and the
 rest of the crew1 and how things are   
going with himself or his fellow        
sailors4  ,most true1 he said4  ,if1    
then1 the ruler catches anybody beside  
himself lying in the ,state1      ,any  
of the craftsmen1 whether he priest or  
physician or     carpenter4  he will    
punish him for introducing a practice   
which is equally subversive and         

destructive of ship or ,state4  ,most   
certainly1 he said1 if our idea of the  
,state is ever carried out4  ,in the    
next place our youth must be temperate8 
,certainly4  ,are not the chief elements
 of temperance1 speaking generally1     
obedience to commanders and self-control
 in sensual pleasures8  ,true4  ,then we
 shall approve such language as that of 
,diomede in ,homer1      ,friend1 sit   
still and obey my word1  and the verses 
which follow1      ,the ,greeks marched 
breathing prowess1     444in silent awe 
of their leaders1  and other sentiments 
of the same kind4  ,we shall4  ,what of 
this line1      ,o heavy with wine1 who 
hast the eyes of a dog and the heart of 
a     stag1  and of the words which     
follow8  ,would you say that these1 or  
any similar impertinences which private 
individuals are supposed to address to  
their rulers1 whether in verse or prose1
 are well or ill spoken8  ,they are ill 
spoken4  ,they may very possibly afford 
some amusement1 but they do not conduce 

to temperance4  ,and therefore they are 
likely to do harm to our young men--you 
would agree with me there8  ,yes4  ,and 
then1 again1 to make the wisest of men  
say that nothing in his opinion is more 
glorious than      ,when the tables are 
full of bread and meat1 and the         
cup-bearer     carries round wine which 
he draws from the bowl and pours into   
the cups1  is it fit or conducive to    
temperance for a young man to hear such 
words8  ,or the verse      ,the saddest 
of fates is to die and meet destiny from
 hunger8  ,what would you say again to  
the tale of ,zeus1 who1 while other gods
 and men were asleep and he the only    
person awake1 lay devising plans1 but   
forgot them all in a moment through his 
lust1 and was so completely overcome at 
the sight of ,here that he would not    
even go into the hut1 but wanted to lie 
with her on the ground1 declaring that  
he had never been in such a state of    
rapture before1 even when they first met
 one another      ,without the knowledge

 of their parents2  or that other tale  
of how ,hephaestus1 because of similar  
goings on1 cast a chain around ,ares and
 ,aphrodite8  ,indeed1 he said1 ,i am   
strongly of opinion that they ought not 
to hear that sort of thing4  ,but any   
deeds of endurance which are done or    
told by famous men1 these they ought to 
see and hear2 as1 for example1 what is  
said in the verses1      ,he smote his  
breast1 and thus reproached his heart1  
,endure1 my heart2 far worse hast thou  
endured6  ,certainly1 he said4  ,in the 
next place1 we must not let them be     
receivers of gifts or lovers of money4  
,certainly not4  ,neither must we sing  
to them of      ,gifts persuading gods1 
and persuading reverend kings4  ,neither
 is ,phoenix1 the tutor of ,achilles1 to
 be approved or deemed to have given his
 pupil good counsel when he told him    
that he should take the gifts of the    
,greeks and assist them2 but that       
without a gift he should not lay aside  
his anger4  ,neither will we believe or 

acknowledge ,achilles himself to have   
been such a lover of money that he took 
,agamemnon's or that when he had        
received payment he restored the dead   
body of ,hector1 but that without       
payment he was unwilling to do so4      
,undoubtedly1 he said1 these are not    
sentiments which can be approved4       
,loving ,homer as ,i do1 ,i hardly like 
to say that in attributing these        
feelings to ,achilles1 or in believing  
that they are truly to him1 he is guilty
 of downright impiety4  ,as little can  
,i believe the narrative of his         
insolence to ,apollo1 where he says1    
,thou hast wronged me1 ,o far-darter1   
most abominable of deities4     ,verily 
,i would he even with thee1 if ,i had   
only the power1  or his insubordination 
to the river-god1 on whose divinity he  
is ready to lay hands2 or his offering  
to the dead ,patroclus of his own hair1 
which had been previously dedicated to  
the other river-god ,spercheius1 and    
that he actually performed this vow2 or 

that he dragged ,hector round the tomb  
of ,patroclus1 and slaughtered the      
captives at the pyre2 of all this ,i    
cannot believe that he was guilty1 any  
more than ,i can allow our citizens to  
believe that he1 the wise ,cheiron's    
pupil1 the son of a goddess and of      
,peleus who was the gentlest of men and 
third in descent from ,zeus1 was so     
disordered in his wits as to be at one  
time the slave of two seemingly         
inconsistent passions1 meanness1 not    
untainted by avarice1 combined with     
overweening contempt of gods and men4   
,you are quite right1 he replied4  ,and 
let us equally refuse to believe1 or    
allow to be repeated1 the tale of       
,theseus son of ,poseidon1 or of        
,peirithous son of ,zeus1 going forth as
 they did to perpetrate a horrid rape2  
or of any other hero or son of a god    
daring to do such impious and dreadful  
things as they falsely ascribe to them  
in our day3 and let us further compel   
the poets to declare either that these  

acts were not done by them1 or that they
 were not the sons of gods2--both in the
 same breath they shall not be permitted
 to affirm4  ,we will not have them     
trying to persuade our youth that the   
gods are the authors of evil1 and that  
heroes are no better than men-sentiments
 which1 as we were saying1 are neither  
pious nor true1 for we have already     
proved that evil cannot come from the   
gods4  ,assuredly not4  ,and further    
they are likely to have a bad effect on 
those who hear them2 for everybody will 
begin to excuse his own vices when he is
 convinced that similar wickednesses are
 always being perpetrated by--      ,the
 kindred of the gods1 the relatives of  
,zeus1 whose ancestral     altar1 the   
attar of ,zeus1 is aloft in air on the  
peak of ,ida1  and who have      the    
blood of deities yet flowing in their   
veins4  ,and therefore let us put an end
 to such tales1 lest they engender      
laxity of morals among the young4  ,by  
all means1 he replied4  ,but now that we

 are determining what classes of        
subjects are or are not to be spoken of1
 let us see whether any have been       
omitted by us4  ,the manner in which    
gods and demigods and heroes and the    
world below should be treated has been  
already laid down4  ,very true4  ,and   
what shall we say about men8  ,that is  
clearly the remaining portion of our    
subject4  ,clearly so4  ,but we are not 
in a condition to answer this question  
at present1 my friend4  ,why not8       
,because1 if ,i am not mistaken1 we     
shall have to say that about men poets  
and story-tellers are guilty of making  
the gravest misstatements when they tell
 us that wicked men are often happy1 and
 the good miserable2 and that injustice 
is profitable when undetected1 but that 
justice is a man's own loss and         
another's gain--these things we shall   
forbid them to utter1 and command them  
to sing and say the opposite4  ,to be   
sure we shall1 he replied4  ,but if you 
admit that ,i am right in this1 then ,i 

shall maintain that you have implied the
 principle for which we have been all   
along contending4  ,i grant the truth of
 your inference4  ,that such things are 
or are not to be said about men is a    
question which we cannot determine until
 we have discovered what justice is1 and
 how naturally advantageous to the      
possessor1 whether he seems to be just  
or not4  ,most true1 he said4  ,enough  
of the subjects of poetry3  let us now  
speak of the style2 and when this has   
been considered1 both matter and manner 
will have been completely treated4  ,i  
do not understand what you mean1 said   
,adeimantus4  ,then ,i must make you    
understand2 and perhaps ,i may be more  
intelligible if ,i put the matter in    
this way4  ,you are aware1 ,i suppose1  
that all mythology and poetry is a      
narration of events1 either past1       
present1 or to come8  ,certainly1 he    
replied4  ,and narration may be either  
simple narration1 or imitation1 or a    
union of the two8  ,that again1 he said1

 ,i do not quite understand4  ,i fear   
that ,i must be a ridiculous teacher    
when ,i have so much difficulty in      
making myself apprehended4  ,like a bad 
speaker1 therefore1 ,i will not take the
 whole of the subject1 but will break a 
piece off in illustration of my meaning4
  ,you know the first lines of the      
,iliad1 in which the poet says that     
,chryses prayed ,agamemnon to release   
his daughter1 and that ,agamemnon flew  
into a passion with him2 whereupon      
,chryses1 failing of his object1 invoked
 the anger of the ,god against the      
,achaeans4  ,now as far as these lines1 
,and he prayed all the ,greeks1 but     
especially the two sons of ,atreus1     
the chiefs of the people1  the poet is  
speaking in his own person2 he never    
leads us to suppose that he is any one  
else4  ,but in what follows he takes the
 person of ,chryses1 and then he does   
all that he can to make us believe that 
the speaker is not ,homer1 but the aged 
priest himself4  ,and in this double    

form he has cast the entire narrative of
 the events which occurred at ,troy and 
in ,ithaca and throughout the ,odyssey4 
,yes4  ,and a narrative it remains both 
in the speeches which the poet recites  
from time to time and in the            
intermediate passages8  ,quite true4    
,but when the poet speaks in the person 
of another1 may we not say that he      
assimilates his style to that of the    
person who1 as he informs you1 is going 
to speak8  ,certainly4  ,and this       
assimilation of himself to another1     
either by the use of voice or gesture1  
is the imitation of the person whose    
character he assumes8  ,of course4      
,then in this case the narrative of the 
poet may be said to proceed by way of   
imitation8  ,very true4  ,or1 if the    
poet everywhere appears and never       
conceals himself1 then again the        
imitation is dropped1 and his poetry    
becomes simple narration4  ,however1 in 
order that ,i may make my meaning quite 
clear1 and that you may no more say1 ,i 

don't understand1' ,i will show how the 
change might be effected4  ,if ,homer   
had said1 ',the priest came1 having his 
daughter's ransom in his hands1         
supplicating the ,achaeans1 and above   
all the kings2' and then if1 instead of 
speaking in the person of ,chryses1 he  
had continued in his own person1 the    
words would have been1 not imitation1   
but simple narration4  ,the passage     
would have run as follows 7,i am no     
poet1 and therefore ,i drop the metre71 
',the priest came and prayed the gods on
 behalf of the ,greeks that they might  
capture ,troy and return safely home1   
but begged that they would give him back
 his daughter1 and take the ransom which
 he brought1 and respect the ,god4      
,thus he spoke1 and the other ,greeks   
revered the priest and assented4  ,but  
,agamemnon was wroth1 and bade him      
depart and not come again1 lest the     
staff and chaplets of the ,god should be
 of no avail to him--the daughter of    
,chryses should not be released1 he     

said--she should grow old with him in   
,argos4  ,and then he told him to go    
away and not to provoke him1 if he      
intended to get home unscathed4 ,and the
 old man went away in fear and silence1 
and1 when he had left the camp1 he      
called upon ,apollo by his many names1  
reminding him of everything which he had
 done pleasing to him1 whether in       
building his temples1 or in offering    
sacrifice1 and praying that his good    
deeds might be returned to him1 and that
 the ,achaeans might expiate his tears  
by the arrows of the god1'--and so on4  
,in this way the whole becomes simple   
narrative4  ,i understand1 he said4  ,or
 you may suppose the opposite case--that
 the intermediate passages are omitted1 
and the dialogue only left4  ,that also1
 he said1 ,i understand2 you mean1 for  
example1 as in tragedy4  ,you have      
conceived my meaning perfectly2 and if  
,i mistake not1 what you failed to      
apprehend before is now made clear to   
you1 that poetry and mythology are1 in  

some cases1 wholly imitative--instances 
of this are supplied by tragedy and     
comedy2 there is likewise the opposite  
style1 in which the my poet is the only 
speaker--of this the dithyramb affords  
the best example2 and the combination of
 both is found in epic1 and in several  
other styles of poetry4  ,do ,i take you
 with me8  ,yes1 he said2 ,i see now    
what you meant4  ,i will ask you to     
remember also what ,i began by saying1  
that we had done with the subject and   
might proceed to the style4  ,yes1 ,i   
remember4  ,in saying this1 ,i intended 
to imply that we must come to an        
understanding about the mimetic         
art1--whether the poets1 in narrating   
their stories1 are to be allowed by us  
to imitate1 and if so1 whether in whole 
or in part1 and if the latter1 in what  
parts2 or should all imitation be       
prohibited8  ,you mean1 ,i suspect1 to  
ask whether tragedy and comedy shall be 
admitted into our ,state8  ,yes1 ,i     
said2 but there may be more than this in

 question3 ,i really do not know as yet1
 but whither the argument may blow1     
thither we go4  ,and go we will1 he     
said4  ,then1 ,adeimantus1 let me ask   
you whether our guardians ought to be   
imitators2 or rather1 has not this      
question been decided by the rule       
already laid down that one man can only 
do one thing well1 and not many2 and    
that if he attempt many1 he will        
altogether fall of gaining much         
reputation in any8  ,certainly4  ,and   
this is equally true of imitation2 no   
one man can imitate many things as well 
as he would imitate a single one8  ,he  
cannot4  ,then the same person will     
hardly be able to play a serious part in
 life1 and at the same time to be an    
imitator and imitate many other parts as
 well2 for even when two species of     
imitation are nearly allied1 the same   
persons cannot succeed in both1 as1 for 
example1 the writers of tragedy and     
comedy--did you not just now call them  
imitations8  ,yes1 ,i did2 and you are  

right in thinking that the same persons 
cannot succeed in both4  ,any more than 
they can be rhapsodists and actors at   
once8  ,true4  ,neither are comic and   
tragic actors the same2 yet all these   
things are but imitations4  ,they are   
so4  ,and human nature1 ,adeimantus1    
appears to have been coined into yet    
smaller pieces1 and to be as incapable  
of imitating many things well1 as of    
performing well the actions of which the
 imitations are copies4  ,quite true1 he
 replied4  ,if then we adhere to our    
original notion and bear in mind that   
our guardians1 setting aside every other
 business1 are to dedicate themselves   
wholly to the maintenance of freedom in 
the ,state1 making this their craft1 and
 engaging in no work which does not bear
 on this end1 they ought not to practise
 or imitate anything else2 if they      
imitate at all1 they should imitate from
 youth upward only those characters     
which are suitable to their             
profession--the courageous1 temperate1  

holy1 free1 and the like2 but they      
should not depict or be skilful at      
imitating any kind of illiberality or   
baseness1 lest from imitation they      
should come to be what they imitate4    
,did you never observe how imitations1  
beginning in early youth and continuing 
far into life1 at length grow into      
habits and become a second nature1      
affecting body1 voice1 and mind8  ,yes1 
certainly1 he said4  ,then1 ,i said1 we 
will not allow those for whom we profess
 a care and of whom we say that they    
ought to be good men1 to imitate a      
woman1 whether young or old1 quarrelling
 with her husband1 or striving and      
vaunting against the gods in conceit of 
her happiness1 or when she is in        
affliction1 or sorrow1 or weeping2 and  
certainly not one who is in sickness1   
love1 or labour4  ,very right1 he said4 
,neither must they represent slaves1    
male or female1 performing the offices  
of slaves8  ,they must not4  ,and surely
 not bad men1 whether cowards or any    

others1 who do the reverse of what we   
have just been prescribing1 who scold or
 mock or revile one another in drink or 
out of in drink or1 or who in any other 
manner sin against themselves and their 
neighbours in word or deed1 as the      
manner of such is4  ,neither should they
 be trained to imitate the action or    
speech of men or women who are mad or   
bad2 for madness1 like vice1 is to be   
known but not to be practised or        
imitated4  ,very true1 he replied4      
,neither may they imitate smiths or     
other artificers1 or oarsmen1 or        
boatswains1 or the like8  ,how can they1
 he said1 when they are not allowed to  
apply their minds to the callings of any
 of these8  ,nor may they imitate the   
neighing of horses1 the bellowing of    
bulls1 the murmur of rivers and roll of 
the ocean1 thunder1 and all that sort of
 thing8  ,nay1 he said1 if madness be   
forbidden1 neither may they copy the    
behaviour of madmen4  ,you mean1 ,i     
said1 if ,i understand you aright1 that 

there is one sort of narrative style    
which may be employed by a truly good   
man when he has anything to say1 and    
that another sort will be used by a man 
of an opposite character and education4 
,and which are these two sorts8 he      
asked4  ,suppose1 ,i answered1 that a   
just and good man in the course of a    
narration comes on some saying or action
 of another good man1--,i should imagine
 that he will like to personate him1 and
 will not be ashamed of this sort of    
imitation3  he will be most ready to    
play the part of the good man when he is
 acting firmly and wisely2 in a less    
degree when he is overtaken by illness  
or love or drink1 or has met with any   
other disaster4  ,but when he comes to a
 character which is unworthy of him1 he 
will not make a study of that2 he will  
disdain such a person1 and will assume  
his likeness1 if at all1 for a moment   
only when he is performing some good    
action2 at other times he will be       
ashamed to play a part which he has     

never practised1 nor will he like to    
fashion and frame himself after the     
baser models2 he feels the employment of
 such an art1 unless in jest1 to be     
beneath him1 and his mind revolts at it4
  ,so ,i should expect1 he replied4     
,then he will adopt a mode of narration 
such as we have illustrated out of      
,homer1 that is to say1 his style will  
be both imitative and narrative2 but    
there will be very little of the former1
 and a great deal of the latter4  ,do   
you agree8  ,certainly1 he said2 that is
 the model which such a speaker must    
necessarily take4  ,but there is another
 sort of character who will narrate     
anything1 and1 the worse lie is1 the    
more unscrupulous he will be2 nothing   
will be too bad for him3  and he will be
 ready to imitate anything1 not as a    
joke1 but in right good earnest1 and    
before a large company4  ,as ,i was just
 now saying1 he will attempt to         
represent the roll of thunder1 the noise
 of wind and hall1 or the creaking of   

wheels1 and pulleys1 and the various    
sounds of flutes2 pipes1 trumpets1 and  
all sorts of instruments3  he will bark 
like a dog1 bleat like a sheep1 or crow 
like a cock2 his entire art will consist
 in imitation of voice and gesture1 and 
there will be very little narration4    
,that1 he said1 will be his mode of     
speaking4  ,these1 then1 are the two    
kinds of style8  ,yes4  ,and you would  
agree with me in saying that one of them
 is simple and has but slight changes2  
and if the harmony and rhythm are also  
chosen for their simplicity1 the result 
is that the speaker1 if he speaks       
correctly1 is always pretty much the    
same in style1 and he will keep within  
the limits of a single harmony 7for the 
changes are not great71 and in like     
manner he will make use of nearly the   
same rhythm8  ,that is quite true1 he   
said4  ,whereas the other requires all  
sorts of harmonies and all sorts of     
rhythms1 if the music and the style are 
to correspond1 because the style has all

 sorts of changes4  ,that is also       
perfectly true1 he replied4  ,and do not
 the two styles1 or the mixture of the  
two1 comprehend all poetry1 and every   
form of expression in words8  ,no one   
can say anything except in one or other 
of them or in both together4  ,they     
include all1 he said4  ,and shall we    
receive into our ,state all the three   
styles1 or one only of the two unmixed  
styles8 or would you include the mixed8 
,i should prefer only to admit the pure 
imitator of virtue4  ,yes1 ,i said1     
,adeimantus1 but the mixed style is also
 very charming3 and indeed the          
pantomimic1 which is the opposite of the
 one chosen by you1 is the most popular 
style with children and their           
attendants1 and with the world in       
general4  ,i do not deny it4  ,but ,i   
suppose you would argue that such a     
style is unsuitable to our ,state1 in   
which human nature is not twofold or    
manifold1 for one man plays one part    
only8  ,yes2 quite unsuitable4  ,and    

this is the reason why in our ,state1   
and in our ,state only1 we shall find a 
shoemaker to be a shoemaker and not a   
pilot also1 and a husbandman to be a    
husbandman and not a dicast also1 and a 
soldier a soldier and not a trader also1
 and the same throughout8  ,true1 he    
said4  ,and therefore when any one of   
these pantomimic gentlemen1 who are so  
clever that they can imitate anything1  
comes to us1 and makes a proposal to    
exhibit himself and his poetry1 we will 
fall down and worship him as a sweet and
 holy and wonderful being2 but we must  
also inform him that in our ,state such 
as he are not permitted to exist2 the   
law will not allow them4  ,and so when  
we have anointed him with myrrh1 and set
 a garland of wool upon his head1 we    
shall send him away to another city4    
,for we mean to employ for our souls'   
health the rougher and severer poet or  
story-teller1 who will imitate the style
 of the virtuous only1 and will follow  
those models which we prescribed at     

first when we began the education of our
 soldiers4  ,we certainly will1 he said1
 if we have the power4  ,then now1 my   
friend1 ,i said1 that part of music or  
literary education which relates to the 
story or myth may be considered to be   
finished2 for the matter and manner have
 both been discussed4  ,i think so too1 
he said4  ,next in order will follow    
melody and song4  ,that is obvious4     
,every one can see already what we ought
 to say about them1 if we are to be     
consistent with ourselves4  ,,socrates -
 ,,glaucon  ,i fear1 said ,glaucon1     
laughing1 that the words 'every one'    
hardly includes me1 for ,i cannot at the
 moment say what they should be2 though 
,i may guess4  ,at any rate you can tell
 that a song or ode has three parts--the
 words1 the melody1 and the rhythm2 that
 degree of knowledge ,i may presuppose8 
,yes1 he said2 so much as that you may4 
,and as for the words1 there surely be  
no difference words between words which 
are and which are not set to music2 both

 will conform to the same laws1 and     
these have been already determined by   
us8  ,yes4  ,and the melody and rhythm  
will depend upon the words8  ,certainly4
  ,we were saying1 when we spoke of the 
subject-matter1 that we had no need of  
lamentations and strains of sorrow8     
,true4  ,and which are the harmonies    
expressive of sorrow8  ,you are musical1
 and can tell me4  ,the harmonies which 
you mean are the mixed or tenor ,lydian1
 and the full-toned or bass ,lydian1 and
 such like4  ,these then1 ,i said1 must 
be banished2 even to women who have a   
character to maintain they are of no    
use1 and much less to men4 ,certainly4  
,in the next place1 drunkenness and     
softness and indolence are utterly      
unbecoming the character of our         
guardians4  ,utterly unbecoming4  ,and  
which are the soft or drinking          
harmonies8  ,the ,ionian1 he replied1   
and the ,lydian2 they are termed        
'relaxed4'  ,well1 and are these of any 
military use8  ,quite the reverse1 he   

replied2 and if so the ,dorian and the  
,phrygian are the only ones which you   
have left4  ,i answered3  ,of the       
harmonies ,i know nothing1 but ,i want  
to have one warlike1 to sound the note  
or accent which a brave man utters in   
the hour of danger and stern resolve1 or
 when his cause is failing1 and he is   
going to wounds or death or is overtaken
 by some other evil1 and at every such  
crisis meets the blows of fortune with  
firm step and a determination to endure2
 and another to be used by him in times 
of peace and freedom of action1 when    
there is no pressure of necessity1 and  
he is seeking to persuade ,god by       
prayer1 or man by instruction and       
admonition1 or on the other hand1 when  
he is expressing his willingness to     
yield to persuasion or entreaty or      
admonition1 and which represents him    
when by prudent conduct he has attained 
his end1 not carried away by his        
success1 but acting moderately and      
wisely under the circumstances1 and     

acquiescing in the event4  ,these two   
harmonies ,i ask you to leave2 the      
strain of necessity and the strain of   
freedom1 the strain of the unfortunate  
and the strain of the fortunate1 the    
strain of courage1 and the strain of    
temperance2 these1 ,i say1 leave4  ,and 
these1 he replied1 are the ,dorian and  
,phrygian harmonies of which ,i was just
 now speaking4  ,then1 ,i said1 if these
 and these only are to be used in our   
songs and melodies1 we shall not want   
multiplicity of notes or a panharmonic  
scale8  ,i suppose not4  ,then we shall 
not maintain the artificers of lyres    
with three corners and complex scales1  
or the makers of any other many-stringed
 curiously-harmonised instruments8      
,certainly not4  ,but what do you say to
 flute-makers and flute-players8 ,would 
you admit them into our ,state when you 
reflect that in this composite use of   
harmony the flute is worse than all the 
stringed instruments put together2 even 
the panharmonic music is only an        

imitation of the flute8  ,clearly not4  
,there remain then only the lyre and the
 harp for use in the city1 and the      
shepherds may have a pipe in the        
country4  ,that is surely the conclusion
 to be drawn from the argument4  ,the   
preferring of ,apollo and his           
instruments to ,marsyas and his         
instruments is not at all strange1 ,i   
said4  ,not at all1 he replied4  ,and   
so1 by the dog of ,egypt1 we have been  
unconsciously purging the ,state1 which 
not long ago we termed luxurious4  ,and 
we have done wisely1 he replied4  ,then 
let us now finish the purgation1 ,i     
said4  ,next in order to harmonies1     
rhythms will naturally follow1 and they 
should be subject to the same rules1 for
 we ought not to seek out complex       
systems of metre1 or metres of every    
kind1 but rather to discover what       
rhythms are the expressions of a        
courageous and harmonious life2 and when
 we have found them1 we shall adapt the 
foot and the melody to words having a   

like spirit1 not the words to the foot  
and melody4  ,to say what these rhythms 
are will be your duty--you must teach me
 them1 as you have already taught me the
 harmonies4  ,but1 indeed1 he replied1  
,i cannot tell you4  ,i only know that  
there are some three principles of      
rhythm out of which metrical systems are
 framed1 just as in sounds there are    
four notes out of which all the         
harmonies are composed2 that is an      
observation which ,i have made4  ,but of
 what sort of lives they are severally  
the imitations ,i am unable to say4     
,then1 ,i said1 we must take ,damon into
 our counsels2 and he will tell us what 
rhythms are expressive of meanness1 or  
insolence1 or fury1 or other            
unworthiness1 and what are to be        
reserved for the expression of opposite 
feelings4  ,and ,i think that ,i have an
 indistinct recollection of his         
mentioning a complex ,cretic rhythm2    
also a dactylic or heroic1 and he       
arranged them in some manner which ,i do

 not quite understand1 making the       
rhythms equal in the rise and fall of   
the foot1 long and short alternating2   
and1 unless ,i am mistaken1 he spoke of 
an iambic as well as of a trochaic      
rhythm1 and assigned to them short and  
long quantities4  ,also in some cases he
 appeared to praise or censure the      
movement of the foot quite as much as   
the rhythm2 or perhaps a combination of 
the two2 for ,i am not certain what he  
meant4  ,these matters1 however1 as ,i  
was saying1 had better be referred to   
,damon himself1 for the analysis of the 
subject would be difficult1 you know4   
,rather so1 ,i should say4  ,but there  
is no difficulty in seeing that grace or
 the absence of grace is an effect of   
good or bad rhythm4  ,none at all4  ,and
 also that good and bad rhythm naturally
 assimilate to a good and bad style2 and
 that harmony and discord in like manner
 follow style2 for our principle is that
 rhythm and harmony are regulated by the
 words1 and not the words by them4      

,just so1 he said1 they should follow   
the words4  ,and will not the words and 
the character of the style depend on the
 temper of the soul8  ,yes4  ,and       
everything else on the style8  ,yes4    
,then beauty of style and harmony and   
grace and good rhythm depend on         
simplicity1--,i mean the true simplicity
 of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and
 character1 not that other simplicity   
which is only an euphemism for folly8   
,very true1 he replied4  ,and if our    
youth are to do their work in life1 must
 they not make these graces and         
harmonies their perpetual aim8  ,they   
must4  ,and surely the art of the       
painter and every other creative and    
constructive art are full of            
them1--weaving1 embroidery1             
architecture1 and every kind of         
manufacture2 also nature1 animal and    
vegetable1--in all of them there is     
grace or the absence of grace4  ,and    
ugliness and discord and inharmonious   
motion are nearly allied to ill words   

and ill nature1 as grace and harmony are
 the twin sisters of goodness and virtue
 and bear their likeness4  ,that is     
quite true1 he said4  ,but shall our    
superintendence go no further1 and are  
the poets only to be required by us to  
express the image of the good in their  
works1 on pain1 if they do anything     
else1 of expulsion from our ,state8  ,or
 is the same control to be extended to  
other artists1 and are they also to be  
prohibited from exhibiting the opposite 
forms of vice and intemperance and      
meanness and indecency in sculpture and 
building and the other creative arts2   
and is he who cannot conform to this    
rule of ours to be prevented from       
practising his art in our ,state1 lest  
the taste of our citizens be corrupted  
by him8  ,we would not have our         
guardians grow up amid images of moral  
deformity1 as in some noxious pasture1  
and there browse and feed upon many a   
baneful herb and flower day by day1     
little by little1 until they silently   

gather a festering mass of corruption in
 their own soul4  ,let our artists      
rather be those who are gifted to       
discern the true nature of the beautiful
 and graceful2 then will our youth dwell
 in a land of health1 amid fair sights  
and sounds1 and receive the good in     
everything2 and beauty1 the effluence of
 fair works1 shall flow into the eye and
 ear1 like a health-giving breeze from a
 purer region1 and insensibly draw the  
soul from earliest years into likeness  
and sympathy with the beauty of reason4 
,there can be no nobler training than   
that1 he replied4  ,and therefore1 ,i   
said1 ,glaucon1 musical training is a   
more potent instrument than any other1  
because rhythm and harmony find their   
way into the inward places of the soul1 
on which they mightily fasten1 imparting
 grace1 and making the soul of him who  
is rightly educated graceful1 or of him 
who is ill-educated ungraceful2 and also
 because he who has received this true  
education of the inner being will most  

shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in
 art and nature1 and with a true taste1 
while he praises and rejoices over and  
receives into his soul the good1 and    
becomes noble and good1 he will justly  
blame and hate the bad1 now in the days 
of his youth1 even before he is able to 
know the reason why2 and when reason    
comes he will recognise and salute the  
friend with whom his education has made 
him long familiar4  ,yes1 he said1 ,i   
quite agree with you in thinking that   
our youth should be trained in music and
 on the grounds which you mention4      
,just as in learning to read1 ,i said1  
we were satisfied when we knew the      
letters of the alphabet1 which are very 
few1 in all their recurring sizes and   
combinations2 not slighting them as     
unimportant whether they occupy a space 
large or small1 but everywhere eager to 
make them out2 and not thinking         
ourselves perfect in the art of reading 
until we recognise them wherever they   
are found3  ,true--  ,or1 as we         

recognise the reflection of letters in  
the water1 or in a mirror1 only when we 
know the letters themselves2 the same   
art and study giving us the knowledge of
 both3  ,exactly--  ,even so1 as ,i     
maintain1 neither we nor our guardians1 
whom we have to educate1 can ever become
 musical until we and they know the     
essential forms1 in all their           
combinations1 and can recognise them and
 their images wherever they are found1  
not slighting them either in small      
things or great1 but believing them all 
to be within the sphere of one art and  
study4  ,most assuredly4  ,and when a   
beautiful soul harmonises with a        
beautiful form1 and the two are cast in 
one mould1 that will be the fairest of  
sights to him who has an eye to see it8 
,the fairest indeed4  ,and the fairest  
is also the loveliest8  ,that may be    
assumed4  ,and the man who has the      
spirit of harmony will be most in love  
with the loveliest2 but he will not love
 him who is of an inharmonious soul8    

,that is true1 he replied1 if the       
deficiency be in his soul2 but if there 
be any merely bodily defect in another  
he will be patient of it1 and will love 
all the same4  ,i perceive1 ,i said1    
that you have or have had experiences of
 this sort1 and ,i agree4  ,but let me  
ask you another question3 ,has excess of
 pleasure any affinity to temperance8   
,how can that be8 he replied2 pleasure  
deprives a man of the use of his        
faculties quite as much as pain4  ,or   
any affinity to virtue in general8      
,none whatever4  ,any affinity to       
wantonness and intemperance8  ,yes1 the 
greatest4  ,and is there any greater or 
keener pleasure than that of sensual    
love8  ,no1 nor a madder4  ,whereas true
 love is a love of beauty and           
order--temperate and harmonious8  ,quite
 true1 he said4  ,then no intemperance  
or madness should be allowed to approach
 true love8  ,certainly not4  ,then mad 
or intemperate pleasure must never be   
allowed to come near the lover and his  

beloved2 neither of them can have any   
part in it if their love is of the right
 sort8  ,no1 indeed1 ,socrates1 it must 
never come near them4  ,then ,i suppose 
that in the city which we are founding  
you would make a law to the effect that 
a friend should use no other familiarity
 to his love than a father would use to 
his son1 and then only for a noble      
purpose1 and he must first have the     
other's consent2 and this rule is to    
limit him in all his intercourse1 and he
 is never to be seen going further1 or1 
if he exceeds1 he is to be deemed guilty
 of coarseness and bad taste4  ,i quite 
agree1 he said4  ,thus much of music1   
which makes a fair ending2 for what     
should be the end of music if not the   
love of beauty8  ,i agree1 he said4     
,after music comes gymnastic1 in which  
our youth are next to be trained4       
,certainly4  ,gymnastic as well as music
 should begin in early years2 the       
training in it should be careful and    
should continue through life4  ,now my  

belief is1--and this is a matter upon   
which ,i should like to have your       
opinion in confirmation of my own1 but  
my own belief is1--not that the good    
body by any bodily excellence improves  
the soul1 but1 on the contrary1 that the
 good soul1 by her own excellence1      
improves the body as far as this may be 
possible4  ,what do you say8  ,yes1 ,i  
agree4  ,then1 to the mind when         
adequately trained1 we shall be right in
 handing over the more particular care  
of the body2 and in order to avoid      
prolixity we will now only give the     
general outlines of the subject4  ,very 
good4  ,that they must abstain from     
intoxication has been already remarked  
by us2 for of all persons a guardian    
should be the last to get drunk and not 
know where in the world he is4  ,yes1 he
 said2 that a guardian should require   
another guardian to take care of him is 
ridiculous indeed4  ,but next1 what     
shall we say of their food2 for the men 
are in training for the great contest of

 all--are they not8  ,yes1 he said4     
,and will the habit of body of our      
ordinary athletes be suited to them8    
,why not8  ,i am afraid1 ,i said1 that a
 habit of body such as they have is but 
a sleepy sort of thing1 and rather      
perilous to health4  ,do you not observe
 that these athletes sleep away their   
lives1 and are liable to most dangerous 
illnesses if they depart1 in ever so    
slight a degree1 from their customary   
regimen8  ,yes1 ,i do4  ,then1 ,i said1 
a finer sort of training will be        
required for our warrior athletes1 who  
are to be like wakeful dogs1 and to see 
and hear with the utmost keenness2 amid 
the many changes of water and also of   
food1 of summer heat and winter cold1   
which they will have to endure when on a
 campaign1 they must not be liable to   
break down in health4  ,that is my view4
  ,the really excellent gymnastic is    
twin sister of that simple music which  
we were just now describing4  ,how so8  
,why1 ,i conceive that there is a       

gymnastic which1 like our music1 is     
simple and good2 and especially the     
military gymnastic4  ,what do you mean8 
,my meaning may be learned from ,homer2 
he1 you know1 feeds his heroes at their 
feasts1 when they are campaigning1 on   
soldiers' fare2 they have no fish1      
although they are on the shores of the  
,hellespont1 and they are not allowed   
boiled meats but only roast1 which is   
the food most convenient for soldiers1  
requiring only that they should light a 
fire1 and not involving the trouble of  
carrying about pots and pans4  ,true4   
,and ,i can hardly be mistaken in saying
 that sweet sauces are nowhere mentioned
 in ,homer4  ,in proscribing them1      
however1 he is not singular2 all        
professional athletes are well aware    
that a man who is to be in good         
condition should take nothing of the    
kind4  ,yes1 he said2 and knowing this1 
they are quite right in not taking them4
  ,then you would not approve of        
,syracusan dinners1 and the refinements 

of ,sicilian cookery8  ,i think not4    
,nor1 if a man is to be in condition1   
would you allow him to have a           
,corinthian girl as his fair friend8    
,certainly not4  ,neither would you     
approve of the delicacies1 as they are  
thought1 of ,athenian confectionery8    
,certainly not4  ,all such feeding and  
living may be rightly compared by us to 
melody and song composed in the         
panharmonic style1 and in all the       
rhythms4 ,exactly4  ,there complexity   
engendered license1 and here disease2   
whereas simplicity in music was the     
parent of temperance in the soul2 and   
simplicity in gymnastic of health in the
 body4  ,most true1 he said4  ,but when 
intemperance and disease multiply in a  
,state1 halls of justice and medicine   
are always being opened2 and the arts of
 the doctor and the lawyer give         
themselves airs1 finding how keen is the
 interest which not only the slaves but 
the freemen of a city take about them4  
,of course4  ,and yet what greater proof

 can there be of a bad and disgraceful  
state of education than this1 that not  
only artisans and the meaner sort of    
people need the skill of first-rate     
physicians and judges1 but also those   
who would profess to have had a liberal 
education8  ,is it not disgraceful1 and 
a great sign of want of good-breeding1  
that a man should have to go abroad for 
his law and physic because he has none  
of his own at home1 and must therefore  
surrender himself into the hands of     
other men whom he makes lords and judges
 over him8  ,of all things1 he said1 the
 most disgraceful4  ,would you say      
'most1' ,i replied1 when you consider   
that there is a further stage of the    
evil in which a man is not only a       
life-long litigant1 passing all his days
 in the courts1 either as plaintiff or  
defendant1 but is actually led by his   
bad taste to pride himself on his       
litigiousness2 he imagines that he is a 
master in dishonesty2 able to take every
 crooked turn1 and wriggle into and out 

of every hole1 bending like a withy and 
getting out of the way of justice3 and  
all for what8--in order to gain small   
points not worth mentioning1 he not     
knowing that so to order his life as to 
be able to do without a napping judge is
 a far higher and nobler sort of thing4 
,is not that still more disgraceful8    
,yes1 he said1 that is still more       
disgraceful4  ,well1 ,i said1 and to    
require the help of medicine1 not when a
 wound has to be cured1 or on occasion  
of an epidemic1 but just because1 by    
indolence and a habit of life such as we
 have been describing1 men fill         
themselves with waters and winds1 as if 
their bodies were a marsh1 compelling   
the ingenious sons of ,asclepius to find
 more names for diseases1 such as       
flatulence and catarrh2 is not this1    
too1 a disgrace8  ,yes1 he said1 they do
 certainly give very strange and        
newfangled names to diseases4  ,yes1 ,i 
said1 and ,i do not believe that there  
were any such diseases in the days of   

,asclepius2 and this ,i infer from the  
circumstance that the hero ,eurypylus1  
after he has been wounded in ,homer1    
drinks a posset of ,pramnian wine well  
besprinkled with barley-meal and grated 
cheese1 which are certainly             
inflammatory1 and yet the sons of       
,asclepius who were at the ,trojan war  
do not blame the damsel who gives him   
the drink1 or rebuke ,patroclus1 who is 
treating his case4  ,well1 he said1 that
 was surely an extraordinary drink to be
 given to a person in his condition4    
,not so extraordinary1 ,i replied1 if   
you bear in mind that in former days1 as
 is commonly said1 before the time of   
,herodicus1 the guild of ,asclepius did 
not practise our present system of      
medicine1 which may be said to educate  
diseases4  ,but ,herodicus1 being a     
trainer1 and himself of a sickly        
constitution1 by a combination of       
training and doctoring found out a way  
of torturing first and chiefly himself1 
and secondly the rest of the world4     

,how was that8 he said4  ,by the        
invention of lingering death2 for he had
 a mortal disease which he perpetually  
tended1 and as recovery was out of the  
question1 he passed his entire life as a
 valetudinarian2 he could do nothing but
 attend upon himself1 and he was in     
constant torment whenever he departed in
 anything from his usual regimen1 and so
 dying hard1 by the help of science he  
struggled on to old age4  ,a rare reward
 of his skill6  ,yes1 ,i said2 a reward 
which a man might fairly expect who     
never understood that1 if ,asclepius did
 not instruct his descendants in        
valetudinarian arts1 the omission arose1
 not from ignorance or inexperience of  
such a branch of medicine1 but because  
he knew that in all well-ordered states 
every individual has an occupation to   
which he must attend1 and has therefore 
no leisure to spend in continually being
 ill4  ,this we remark in the case of   
the artisan1 but1 ludicrously enough1 do
 not apply the same rule to people of   

the richer sort4  ,how do you mean8 he  
said4  ,i mean this3  ,when a carpenter 
is ill he asks the physician for a rough
 and ready cure2 an emetic or a purge or
 a cautery or the knife1--these are his 
remedies4  ,and if some one prescribes  
for him a course of dietetics1 and tells
 him that he must swathe and swaddle his
 head1 and all that sort of thing1 he   
replies at once that he has no time to  
be ill1 and that he sees no good in a   
life which is spent in nursing his      
disease to the neglect of his customary 
employment2 and therefore bidding       
good-bye to this sort of physician1 he  
resumes his ordinary habits1 and either 
gets well and lives and does his        
business1 or1 if his constitution falls1
 he dies and has no more trouble4  ,yes1
 he said1 and a man in his condition of 
life ought to use the art of medicine   
thus far only4  ,has he not1 ,i said1 an
 occupation2 and what profit would there
 be in his life if he were deprived of  
his occupation8  ,quite true1 he said4  

,but with the rich man this is          
otherwise2 of him we do not say that he 
has any specially appointed work which  
he must perform1 if he would live4  ,he 
is generally supposed to have nothing to
 do4  ,then you never heard of the      
saying of ,phocylides1 that as soon as a
 man has a livelihood he should practise
 virtue8  ,nay1 he said1 ,i think that  
he had better begin somewhat sooner4    
,let us not have a dispute with him     
about this1 ,i said2 but rather ask     
ourselves3  ,is the practice of virtue  
obligatory on the rich man1 or can he   
live without it8  ,and if obligatory on 
him1 then let us raise a further        
question1 whether this dieting of       
disorders which is an impediment to the 
application of the mind t in            
carpentering and the mechanical arts1   
does not equally stand in the way of the
 sentiment of ,phocylides8  ,of that1 he
 replied1 there can be no doubt2 such   
excessive care of the body1 when carried
 beyond the rules of gymnastic1 is most 

inimical to the practice of virtue4     
,yes1 indeed1 ,i replied1 and equally   
incompatible with the management of a   
house1 an army1 or an office of state2  
and1 what is most important of all1     
irreconcilable with any kind of study or
 thought or self-reflection--there is a 
constant suspicion that headache and    
giddiness are to be ascribed to         
philosophy1 and hence all practising or 
making trial of virtue in the higher    
sense is absolutely stopped2 for a man  
is always fancying that he is being made
 ill1 and is in constant anxiety about  
the state of his body4  ,yes1 likely    
enough4  ,and therefore our politic     
,asclepius may be supposed to have      
exhibited the power of his art only to  
persons who1 being generally of healthy 
constitution and habits of life1 had a  
definite ailment2 such as these he cured
 by purges and operations1 and bade them
 live as usual1 herein consulting the   
interests of the ,state2 but bodies     
which disease had penetrated through and

 through he would not have attempted to 
cure by gradual processes of evacuation 
and infusion3  he did not want to       
lengthen out good-for-nothing lives1 or 
to have weak fathers begetting weaker   
sons2--if a man was not able to live in 
the ordinary way he had no business to  
cure him2 for such a cure would have    
been of no use either to himself1 or to 
the ,state4  ,then1 he said1 you regard 
,asclepius as a statesman4  ,clearly2   
and his character is further illustrated
 by his sons4  ,note that they were     
heroes in the days of old and practised 
the medicines of which ,i am speaking at
 the siege of ,troy3  ,you will remember
 how1 when ,pandarus wounded ,menelaus1 
they      ,sucked the blood out of the  
wound1 and sprinkled soothing remedies1 
but they never prescribed what the      
patient was afterwards to eat or drink  
in the case of ,menelaus1 any more than 
in the case of ,eurypylus2 the remedies1
 as they conceived1 were enough to heal 
any man who before he was wounded was   

healthy and regular in habits2 and even 
though he did happen to drink a posset  
of ,pramnian wine1 he might get well all
 the same4  ,but they would have nothing
 to do with unhealthy and intemperate   
subjects1 whose lives were of no use    
either to themselves or others2 the art 
of medicine was not designed for their  
good1 and though they were as rich as   
,midas1 the sons of ,asclepius would    
have declined to attend them4  ,they    
were very acute persons1 those sons of  
,asclepius4  ,naturally so1 ,i replied4 
,nevertheless1 the tragedians and       
,pindar disobeying our behests1 although
 they acknowledge that ,asclepius was   
the son of ,apollo1 say also that he was
 bribed into healing a rich man who was 
at the point of death1 and for this     
reason he was struck by lightning4  ,but
 we1 in accordance with the principle   
already affirmed by us1 will not believe
 them when they tell us both2--if he was
 the son of a god1 we maintain that he  
was not avaricious2 or1 if he was       

avaricious he was not the son of a god4 
,all that1 ,socrates1 is excellent2 but 
,i should like to put a question to you3
  ,ought there not to be good physicians
 in a ,state1 and are not the best those
 who have treated the greatest number of
 constitutions good and bad8 and are not
 the best judges in like manner those   
who are acquainted with all sorts of    
moral natures8  ,yes1 ,i said1 ,i too   
would have good judges and good         
physicians4  ,but do you know whom ,i   
think good8  ,will you tell me8  ,i     
will1 if ,i can4  ,let me however note  
that in the same question you join two  
things which are not the same4  ,how so8
 he asked4  ,why1 ,i said1 you join     
physicians and judges4  ,now the most   
skilful physicians are those who1 from  
their youth upwards1 have combined with 
the knowledge of their art the greatest 
experience of disease2 they had better  
not be robust in health1 and should have
 had all manner of diseases in their own
 persons4  ,for the body1 as ,i         

conceive1 is not the instrument with    
which they cure the body2 in that case  
we could not allow them ever to be or to
 have been sickly2 but they cure the    
body with the mind1 and the mind which  
has become and is sick can cure nothing4
  ,that is very true1 he said4  ,but    
with the judge it is otherwise2 since he
 governs mind by mind2 he ought not     
therefore to have been trained among    
vicious minds1 and to have associated   
with them from youth upwards1 and to    
have gone through the whole calendar of 
crime1 only in order that he may quickly
 infer the crimes of others as he might 
their bodily diseases from his own      
self-consciousness2 the honourable mind 
which is to form a healthy judgment     
should have had no experience or        
contamination of evil habits when young4
  ,and this is the reason why in youth  
good men often appear to be simple1 and 
are easily practised upon by the        
dishonest1 because they have no examples
 of what evil is in their own souls4    

,yes1 he said1 they are far too apt to  
be deceived4  ,therefore1 ,i said1 the  
judge should not be young2 he should    
have learned to know evil1 not from his 
own soul1 but from late and long        
observation of the nature of evil in    
others3 knowledge should be his guide1  
not personal experience4  ,yes1 he said1
 that is the ideal of a judge4  ,yes1 ,i
 replied1 and he will be a good man     
7which is my answer to your question72  
for he is good who has a good soul4     
,but the cunning and suspicious nature  
of which we spoke1--he who has committed
 many crimes1 and fancies himself to be 
a master in wickedness1 when he is      
amongst his fellows1 is wonderful in the
 precautions which he takes1 because he 
judges of them by himself3  but when he 
gets into the company of men of virtue1 
who have the experience of age1 he      
appears to be a fool again1 owing to his
 unseasonable suspicions2 he cannot     
recognise an honest man1 because he has 
no pattern of honesty in himself2 at the

 same time1 as the bad are more numerous
 than the good1 and he meets with them  
oftener1 he thinks himself1 and is by   
others thought to be1 rather wise than  
foolish4  ,most true1 he said4  ,then   
the good and wise judge whom we are     
seeking is not this man1 but the other2 
for vice cannot know virtue too1 but a  
virtuous nature1 educated by time1 will 
acquire a knowledge both of virtue and  
vice3 the virtuous1 and not the vicious1
 man has wisdom--in my opinion4  ,and in
 mine also4  ,this is the sort of       
medicine1 and this is the sort of law1  
which you sanction in your ,state4      
,they will minister to better natures1  
giving health both of soul and of body2 
but those who are diseased in their     
bodies they will leave to die1 and the  
corrupt and incurable souls they will   
put an end to themselves4  ,that is     
clearly the best thing both for the     
patients and for the ,state4  ,and thus 
our youth1 having been educated only in 
that simple music which1 as we said1    

inspires temperance1 will be reluctant  
to go to law4  ,clearly4  ,and the      
musician1 who1 keeping to the same      
track1 is content to practise the simple
 gymnastic1 will have nothing to do with
 medicine unless in some extreme case4  
,that ,i quite believe4  ,the very      
exercises and tolls which he undergoes  
are intended to stimulate the spirited  
element of his nature1 and not to       
increase his strength2 he will not1 like
 common athletes1 use exercise and      
regimen to develop his muscles4  ,very  
right1 he said4  ,neither are the two   
arts of music and gymnastic really      
designed1 as is often supposed1 the one 
for the training of the soul1 the other 
fir the training of the body4  ,what    
then is the real object of them8  ,i    
believe1 ,i said1 that the teachers of  
both have in view chiefly the           
improvement of the soul4  ,how can that 
be8 he asked4  ,did you never observe1  
,i said1 the effect on the mind itself  
of exclusive devotion to gymnastic1 or  

the opposite effect of an exclusive     
devotion to music8  ,in what way shown8 
he said4  ,the one producing a temper of
 hardness and ferocity1 the other of    
softness and effeminacy1 ,i replied4    
,yes1 he said1 ,i am quite aware that   
the mere athlete becomes too much of a  
savage1 and that the mere musician is   
melted and softened beyond what is good 
for him4  ,yet surely1 ,i said1 this    
ferocity only comes from spirit1 which1 
if rightly educated1 would give courage1
 but1 if too much intensified1 is liable
 to become hard and brutal4  ,that ,i   
quite think4  ,on the other hand the    
philosopher will have the quality of    
gentleness4 ,and this also1 when too    
much indulged1 will turn to softness1   
but1 if educated rightly1 will be gentle
 and moderate4  ,true4  ,and in our     
opinion the guardians ought to have both
 these qualities8  ,assuredly4  ,and    
both should be in harmony8  ,beyond     
question4  ,and the harmonious soul is  
both temperate and courageous8  ,yes4   

,and the inharmonious is cowardly and   
boorish8  ,very true4  ,and1 when a man 
allows music to play upon him and to    
pour into his soul through the funnel of
 his ears those sweet and soft and      
melancholy airs of which we were just   
now speaking1 and his whole life is     
passed in warbling and the delights of  
song2 in the first stage of the process 
the passion or spirit which is in him is
 tempered like iron1 and made useful1   
instead of brittle and useless4  ,but1  
if he carries on the softening and      
soothing process1 in the next stage he  
begins to melt and waste1 until he has  
wasted away his spirit and cut out the  
sinews of his soul2 and he becomes a    
feeble warrior4  ,very true4  ,if the   
element of spirit is naturally weak in  
him the change is speedily accomplished1
 but if he have a good deal1 then the   
power of music weakening the spirit     
renders him excitable2--on the least    
provocation he flames up at once1 and is
 speedily extinguished2 instead of      

having spirit he grows irritable and    
passionate and is quite impracticable4  
,exactly4  ,and so in gymnastics1 if a  
man takes violent exercise and is a     
great feeder1 and the reverse of a great
 student of music and philosophy1 at    
first the high condition of his body    
fills him with pride and spirit1 and lie
 becomes twice the man that he was4     
,certainly4  ,and what happens8 if he do
 nothing else1 and holds no con-a verse 
with the ,muses1 does not even that     
intelligence which there may be in him1 
having no taste of any sort of learning 
or enquiry or thought or culture1 grow  
feeble and dull and blind1 his mind     
never waking up or receiving            
nourishment1 and his senses not being   
purged of their mists8  ,true1 he said4 
,and he ends by becoming a hater of     
philosophy1 uncivilized1 never using the
 weapon of persuasion1--he is like a    
wild beast1 all violence and fierceness1
 and knows no other way of dealing2 and 
he lives in all ignorance and evil      

conditions1 and has no sense of         
propriety and grace4  ,that is quite    
true1 he said4  ,and as there are two   
principles of human nature1 one the     
spirited and the other the              
philosophical1 some ,god1 as ,i should  
say1 has given mankind two arts         
answering to them 7and only indirectly  
to the soul and body71 in order that    
these two principles 7like the strings  
of an instrument7 may be relaxed or     
drawn tighter until they are duly       
harmonised4  ,that appears to be the    
intention4  ,and he who mingles music   
with gymnastic in the fairest           
proportions1 and best attempers them to 
the soul1 may be rightly called the true
 musician and harmonist in a far higher 
sense than the tuner of the strings4    
,you are quite right1 ,socrates4  ,and  
such a presiding genius will be always  
required in our ,state if the government
 is to last4  ,yes1 he will be          
absolutely necessary4  ,such1 then1 are 
our principles of nurture and education3

 ,where would be the use of going into  
further details about the dances of our 
citizens1 or about their hunting and    
coursing1 their gymnastic and equestrian
 contests8  ,for these all follow the   
general principle1 and having found     
that1 we shall have no difficulty in    
discovering them4  ,i dare say that     
there will be no difficulty4  ,very     
good1 ,i said2 then what is the next    
question8  ,must we not ask who are to  
be rulers and who subjects8  ,certainly4
  ,there can be no doubt that the elder 
must rule the younger4  ,clearly4  ,and 
that the best of these must rule4  ,that
 is also clear4  ,now1 are not the best 
husbandmen those who are most devoted to
 husbandry8  ,yes4  ,and as we are to   
have the best of guardians for our city1
 must they not be those who have most   
the character of guardians8  ,yes4  ,and
 to this end they ought to be wise and  
efficient1 and to have a special care of
 the ,state8  ,true4  ,and a man will be
 most likely to care about that which he

 loves8  ,to be sure4  ,and he will be  
most likely to love that which he       
regards as having the same interests    
with himself1 and that of which the good
 or evil fortune is supposed by him at  
any time most to affect his own8  ,very 
true1 he replied4  ,then there must be a
 selection4  ,let us note among the     
guardians those who in their whole life 
show the greatest eagerness to do what  
is for the good of their country1 and   
the greatest repugnance to do what is   
against her interests4  ,those are the  
right men4  ,and they will have to be   
watched at every age1 in order that we  
may see whether they preserve their     
resolution1 and never1 under the        
influence either of force or            
enchantment1 forget or cast off their   
sense of duty to the ,state4  ,how cast 
off8 he said4  ,i will explain to you1  
,i replied4  ,a resolution may go out of
 a man's mind either with his will or   
against his will2 with his will when he 
gets rid of a falsehood and learns      

better1 against his will whenever he is 
deprived of a truth4  ,i understand1 he 
said1 the willing loss of a resolution2 
the meaning of the unwilling ,i have yet
 to learn4  ,why1 ,i said1 do you not   
see that men are unwillingly deprived of
 good1 and willingly of evil8  ,is not  
to have lost the truth an evil1 and to  
possess the truth a good8 and you would 
agree that to conceive things as they   
are is to possess the truth8  ,yes1 he  
replied2 ,i agree with you in thinking  
that mankind are deprived of truth      
against their will4  ,and is not this   
involuntary deprivation caused either by
 theft1 or force1 or enchantment8       
,still1 he replied1 ,i do not understand
 you4  ,i fear that ,i must have been   
talking darkly1 like the tragedians4  ,i
 only mean that some men are changed by 
persuasion and that others forget2      
argument steals away the hearts of one  
class1 and time of the other2 and this  
,i call theft4  ,now you understand me8 
,yes4  ,those again who are forced are  

those whom the violence of some pain or 
grief compels to change their opinion4  
,i understand1 he said1 and you are     
quite right4  ,and you would also       
acknowledge that the enchanted are those
 who change their minds either under the
 softer influence of pleasure1 or the   
sterner influence of fear8  ,yes1 he    
said2 everything that deceives may be   
said to enchant4  ,therefore1 as ,i was 
just now saying1 we must enquire who are
 the best guardians of their own        
conviction that what they think the     
interest of the ,state is to be the rule
 of their lives4  ,we must watch them   
from their youth upwards1 and make them 
perform actions in which they are most  
likely to forget or to be deceived1 and 
he who remembers and is not deceived is 
to be selected1 and he who falls in the 
trial is to be rejected4  ,that will be 
the way8  ,yes4  ,and there should also 
be toils and pains and conflicts        
prescribed for them1 in which they will 
be made to give further proof of the    

same qualities4  ,very right1 he        
replied4  ,and then1 ,i said1 we must   
try them with enchantments that is the  
third sort of test--and see what will be
 their behaviour3 like those who take   
colts amid noise and tumult to see if   
they are of a timid nature1 so must we  
take our youth amid terrors of some     
kind1 and again pass them into          
pleasures1 and prove them more          
thoroughly than gold is proved in the   
furnace1 that we may discover whether   
they are armed against all enchantments1
 and of a noble bearing always1 good    
guardians of themselves and of the music
 which they have learned1 and retaining 
under all circumstances a rhythmical and
 harmonious nature1 such as will be most
 serviceable to the individual and to   
the ,state4  ,and he who at every age1  
as boy and youth and in mature life1 has
 come out of the trial victorious and   
pure1 shall be appointed a ruler and    
guardian of the ,state2 he shall be     
honoured in life and death1 and shall   

receive sepulture and other memorials of
 honour1 the greatest that we have to   
give4  ,but him who fails1 we must      
reject4  ,i am inclined to think that   
this is the sort of way in which our    
rulers and guardians should be chosen   
and appointed4  ,i speak generally1 and 
not with any pretension to exactness4   
,and1 speaking generally1 ,i agree with 
you1 he said4  ,and perhaps the word    
'guardian' in the fullest sense ought to
 be applied to this higher class only   
who preserve us against foreign enemies 
and maintain peace among our citizens at
 home1 that the one may not have the    
will1 or the others the power1 to harm  
us4  ,the young men whom we before      
called guardians may be more properly   
designated auxiliaries and supporters of
 the principles of the rulers4  ,i agree
 with you1 he said4  ,how then may we   
devise one of those needful falsehoods  
of which we lately spoke--just one royal
 lie which may deceive the rulers1 if   
that be possible1 and at any rate the   

rest of the city8  ,what sort of lie8 he
 said4  ,nothing new1 ,i replied2 only  
an old ,phoenician tale of what has     
often occurred before now in other      
places1 7as the poets say1 and have made
 the world believe17 though not in our  
time1 and ,i do not know whether such an
 event could ever happen again1 or could
 now even be made probable1 if it did4  
,how your words seem to hesitate on your
 lips6  ,you will not wonder1 ,i        
replied1 at my hesitation when you have 
heard4  ,speak1 he said1 and fear not4  
,well then1 ,i will speak1 although ,i  
really know not how to look you in the  
face1 or in what words to utter the     
audacious fiction1 which ,i propose to  
communicate gradually1 first to the     
rulers1 then to the soldiers1 and lastly
 to the people4  ,they are to be told   
that their youth was a dream1 and the   
education and training which they       
received from us1 an appearance only2 in
 reality during all that time they were 
being formed and fed in the womb of the 

earth1 where they themselves and their  
arms and appurtenances were             
manufactured2 when they were completed1 
the earth1 their mother1 sent them up2  
and so1 their country being their mother
 and also their nurse1 they are bound to
 advise for her good1 and to defend her 
against attacks1 and her citizens they  
are to regard as children of the earth  
and their own brothers4  ,you had good  
reason1 he said1 to be ashamed of the   
lie which you were going to tell4       
,true1 ,i replied1 but there is more    
coming2 ,i have only told you half4     
,citizens1 we shall say to them in our  
tale1 you are brothers1 yet ,god has    
framed you differently4  ,some of you   
have the power of command1 and in the   
composition of these he has mingled     
gold1 wherefore also they have the      
greatest honour2 others he has made of  
silver1 to be auxillaries2 others again 
who are to be husbandmen and craftsmen  
he has composed of brass and iron2 and  
the species will generally be preserved 

in the children4  ,but as all are of the
 same original stock1 a golden parent   
will sometimes have a silver son1 or a  
silver parent a golden son4  ,and ,god  
proclaims as a first principle to the   
rulers1 and above all else1 that there  
is nothing which should so anxiously    
guard1 or of which they are to be such  
good guardians1 as of the purity of the 
race4 ,they should observe what elements
 mingle in their off spring2 for if the 
son of a golden or silver parent has an 
admixture of brass and iron1 then nature
 orders a transposition of ranks1 and   
the eye of the ruler must not be pitiful
 towards the child because he has to    
descend in the scale and become a       
husbandman or artisan1 just as there may
 be sons of artisans who having an      
admixture of gold or silver in them are 
raised to honour1 and become guardians  
or auxiliaries4  ,for an oracle says    
that when a man of brass or iron guards 
the ,state1 it will be destroyed4  ,such
 is the tale2 is there any possibility  

of making our citizens believe in it8   
,not in the present generation1 he      
replied2 there is no way of             
accomplishing this2 but their sons may  
be made to believe in the tale1 and     
their sons' sons1 and posterity after   
them4  ,i see the difficulty1 ,i        
replied2 yet the fostering of such a    
belief will make them care more for the 
city and for one another4  ,enough1     
however1 of the fiction1 which may now  
fly abroad upon the wings of rumour1    
while we arm our earth-born heroes1 and 
lead them forth under the command of    
their rulers4  ,let them look round and 
select a spot whence they can best      
suppress insurrection1 if any prove     
refractory within1 and also defend      
themselves against enemies1 who like    
wolves may come down on the fold from   
without2 there let them encamp1 and when
 they have encamped1 let them sacrifice 
to the proper ,gods and prepare their   
dwellings4  ,just so1 he said4  ,and    
their dwellings must be such as will    

shield them against the cold of winter  
and the heat of summer4  ,i suppose that
 you mean houses1 he replied4  ,yes1 ,i 
said2 but they must be the houses of    
soldiers1 and not of shop-keepers4      
,what is the difference8 he said4  ,that
 ,i will endeavour to explain1 ,i       
replied4  ,to keep watchdogs1 who1 from 
want of discipline or hunger1 or some   
evil habit1 or evil habit or other1     
would turn upon the sheep and worry     
them1 and behave not like dogs but      
wolves1 would be a foul and monstrous   
thing in a shepherd8  ,truly monstrous1 
he said4  ,and therefore every care must
 be taken that our auxiliaries1 being   
stronger than our citizens1 may not grow
 to be too much for them and become     
savage tyrants instead of friends and   
allies8  ,yes1 great care should be     
taken4  ,and would not a really good    
education furnish the best safeguard8   
,but they are well-educated already1 he 
replied4  ,i cannot be so confident1 my 
dear ,glaucon1 ,i said2 ,i am much      

certain that they ought to be1 and that 
true education1 whatever that may be1   
will have the greatest tendency to      
civilize and humanize them in their     
relations to one another1 and to those  
who are under their protection4  ,very  
true1 he replied4  ,and not only their  
education1 but their habitations1 and   
all that belongs to them1 should be such
 as will neither impair their virtue as 
guardians1 nor tempt them to prey upon  
the other citizens4  ,any man of sense  
must acknowledge that4  ,he must4  ,then
 let us consider what will be their way 
of life1 if they are to realize our idea
 of them4  ,in the first place1 none of 
them should have any property of his own
 beyond what is absolutely necessary2   
neither should they have a private house
 or store closed against any one who has
 a mind to enter2 their provisions      
should be only such as are required by  
trained warriors1 who are men of        
temperance and courage2 they should     
agree to receive from the citizens a    

fixed rate of pay1 enough to meet the   
expenses of the year and no more2 and   
they will go and live together like     
soldiers in a camp4  ,gold and silver we
 will tell them that they have from     
,god2 the diviner metal is within them1 
and they have therefore no need of the  
dross which is current among men1 and   
ought not to pollute the divine by any  
such earthly admixture2 for that        
commoner metal has been the source of   
many unholy deeds1 but their own is     
undefiled4  ,and they alone of all the  
citizens may not touch or handle silver 
or gold1 or be under the same roof with 
them1 or wear them1 or drink from them4 
,and this will be their salvation1 and  
they will be the saviours of the ,state4
  ,but should they ever acquire homes or
 lands or moneys of their own1 they will
 become housekeepers and husbandmen     
instead of guardians1 enemies and       
tyrants instead of allies of the other  
citizens2 hating and being hated1       
plotting and being plotted against1 they

 will pass their whole life in much     
greater terror of internal than of      
external enemies1 and the hour of ruin1 
both to themselves and to the rest of   
the ,state1 will be at hand4  ,for all  
which reasons may we not say that thus  
shall our ,state be ordered1 and that   
these shall be the regulations appointed
 by us for guardians concerning their   
houses and all other matters8  other    
,yes1 said ,glaucon4     ,,book ,,iv    
,,adeimantus - ,,socrates  ,,here       
,adeimantus interposed a question3  ,how
 would you answer1 ,socrates1 said he1  
if a person were to say that you are    
making these people miserable1 and that 
they are the cause of their own         
unhappiness2 the city in fact belongs to
 them1 but they are none the better for 
it2 whereas other men acquire lands1 and
 build large and handsome houses1 and   
have everything handsome about them1    
offering sacrifices to the gods on their
 own account1 and practising            
hospitality2 moreover1 as you were      

saying just now1 they have gold and     
silver1 and all that is usual among the 
favourites of fortune2 but our poor     
citizens are no better than mercenaries 
who are quartered in the city and are   
always mounting guard8  ,yes1 ,i said2  
and you may add that they are only fed1 
and not paid in addition to their food1 
like other men2 and therefore they      
cannot1 if they would1 take a journey of
 pleasure2 they have no money to spend  
on a mistress or any other luxurious    
fancy1 which1 as the world goes1 is     
thought to be happiness2 and many other 
accusations of the same nature might be 
added4  ,but1 said he1 let us suppose   
all this to be included in the charge4  
,you mean to ask1 ,i said1 what will be 
our answer8  ,yes4  ,if we proceed along
 the old path1 my belief1 ,i said1 is   
that we shall find the answer4  ,and our
 answer will be that1 even as they are1 
our guardians may very likely be the    
happiest of men2 but that our aim in    
founding the ,state was not the         

disproportionate happiness of any one   
class1 but the greatest happiness of the
 whole2 we thought that in a ,state     
which is ordered with a view to the good
 of the whole we should be most likely  
to find ,justice1 and in the ill-ordered
 ,state injustice3 and1 having found    
them1 we might then decide which of the 
two is the happier4  ,at present1 ,i    
take it1 we are fashioning the happy    
,state1 not piecemeal1 or with a view of
 making a few happy citizens1 but as a  
whole2 and by-and-by we will proceed to 
view the opposite kind of ,state4       
,suppose that we were painting a statue1
 and some one came up to us and said1   
,why do you not put the most beautiful  
colours on the most beautiful parts of  
the body--the eyes ought to be purple1  
but you have made them black--to him we 
might fairly answer1 ,sir1 you would not
 surely have us beautify the eyes to    
such a degree that they are no longer   
eyes2 consider rather whether1 by giving
 this and the other features their due  

proportion1 we make the whole beautiful4
  ,and so ,i say to you1 do not compel  
us to assign to the guardians a sort of 
happiness which will make them anything 
but guardians2 for we too can clothe our
 husbandmen in royal apparel1 and set   
crowns of gold on their heads1 and bid  
them till the ground as much as they    
like1 and no more4 ,our potters also    
might be allowed to repose on couches1  
and feast by the fireside1 passing round
 the winecup1 while their wheel is      
conveniently at hand1 and working at    
pottery only as much as they like2 in   
this way we might make every class      
happy-and then1 as you imagine1 the     
whole ,state would be happy4  ,but do   
not put this idea into our heads2 for1  
if we listen to you1 the husbandman will
 be no longer a husbandman1 the potter  
will cease to be a potter1 and no one   
will have the character of any distinct 
class in the ,state4  ,now this is not  
of much consequence where the corruption
 of society1 and pretension to be what  

you are not1 is confined to cobblers2   
but when the guardians of the laws and  
of the government are only seemingly and
 not real guardians1 then see how they  
turn the ,state upside down2 and on the 
other hand they alone have the power of 
giving order and happiness to the       
,state4  ,we mean our guardians to be   
true saviours and not the destroyers of 
the ,state1 whereas our opponent is     
thinking of peasants at a festival1 who 
are enjoying a life of revelry1 not of  
citizens who are doing their duty to the
 ,state4  ,but1 if so1 we mean different
 things1 and he is speaking of something
 which is not a ,state4  ,and therefore 
we must consider whether in appointing  
our guardians we would look to their    
greatest happiness individually1 or     
whether this principle of happiness does
 not rather reside in the ,state as a   
whole4 ,but the latter be the truth1    
then the guardians and auxillaries1 and 
all others equally with them1 must be   
compelled or induced to do their own    

work in the best way4  ,and thus the    
whole ,state will grow up in a noble    
order1 and the several classes will     
receive the proportion of happiness     
which nature assigns to them4  ,i think 
that you are quite right4  ,i wonder    
whether you will agree with another     
remark which occurs to me4  ,what may   
that be8  ,there seem to be two causes  
of the deterioration of the arts4  ,what
 are they8  ,wealth1 ,i said1 and       
poverty4  ,how do they act8  ,the       
process is as follows3  ,when a potter  
becomes rich1 will he1 think you1 any   
longer take the same pains with his art8
  ,certainly not4  ,he will grow more   
and more indolent and careless8  ,very  
true4  ,and the result will be that he  
becomes a worse potter8  ,yes2 he       
greatly deteriorates4  ,but1 on the     
other hand1 if he has no money1 and     
cannot provide himself tools or         
instruments1 he will not work equally   
well himself1 nor will he teach his sons
 or apprentices to work equally well4   

,certainly not4  ,then1 under the       
influence either of poverty or of       
wealth1 workmen and their work are      
equally liable to degenerate8  ,that is 
evident4  ,here1 then1 is a discovery of
 new evils1 ,i said1 against which the  
guardians will have to watch1 or they   
will creep into the city unobserved4    
,what evils8  ,wealth1 ,i said1 and     
poverty2 the one is the parent of luxury
 and indolence1 and the other of        
meanness and viciousness1 and both of   
discontent4  ,that is very true1 he     
replied2 but still ,i should like to    
know1 ,socrates1 how our city will be   
able to go to war1 especially against an
 enemy who is rich and powerful1 if     
deprived of the sinews of war4  ,there  
would certainly be a difficulty1 ,i     
replied1 in going to war with one such  
enemy2 but there is no difficulty where 
there are two of them4  ,how so8 he     
asked4  ,in the first place1 ,i said1 if
 we have to fight1 our side will be     
trained warriors fighting against an    

army of rich men4  ,that is true1 he    
said4  ,and do you not suppose1         
,adeimantus1 that a single boxer who was
 perfect in his art would easily be a   
match for two stout and well-to-do      
gentlemen who were not boxers8  ,hardly1
 if they came upon him at once4  ,what1 
not1 ,i said1 if he were able to run    
away and then turn and strike at the one
 who first came up8  ,and supposing he  
were to do this several times under the 
heat of a scorching sun1 might he not1  
being an expert1 overturn more than one 
stout personage8  ,certainly1 he said1  
there would be nothing wonderful in     
that4  ,and yet rich men probably have a
 greater superiority in the science and 
practice of boxing than they have in    
military qualities4  ,likely enough4    
,then we may assume that our athletes   
will be able to fight with two or three 
times their own number8  ,i agree with  
you1 for ,i think you right4  ,and      
suppose that1 before engaging1 our      
citizens send an embassy to one of the  

two cities1 telling them what is the    
truth3 ,silver and gold we neither have 
nor are permitted to have1 but you may2 
do you therefore come and help us in    
war1 of and take the spoils of the other
 city3 ,who1 on hearing these words1    
would choose to fight against lean wiry 
dogs1 rather than1 with the dogs on     
their side1 against fat and tender      
sheep8  ,that is not likely2 and yet    
there might be a danger to the poor     
,state if the wealth of many ,states    
were to be gathered into one4  ,but how 
simple of you to use the term ,state at 
all of any but our own6  ,why so8  ,you 
ought to speak of other ,states in the  
plural number2 not one of them is a     
city1 but many cities1 as they say in   
the game4  ,for indeed any city1 however
 small1 is in fact divided into two1 one
 the city of the poor1 the other of the 
rich2 these are at war with one another2
 and in either there are many smaller   
divisions1 and you would be altogether  
beside the mark if you treated them all 

as a single ,state4  ,but if you deal   
with them as many1 and give the wealth  
or power or persons of the one to the   
others1 you will always have a great    
many friends and not many enemies4  ,and
 your ,state1 while the wise order which
 has now been prescribed continues to   
prevail in her1 will be the greatest of 
,states1 ,i do not mean to say in       
reputation or appearance1 but in deed   
and truth1 though she number not more   
than a thousand defenders4  ,a single   
,state which is her equal you will      
hardly find1 either among ,hellenes or  
barbarians1 though many that appear to  
be as great and many times greater4     
,that is most true1 he said4  ,and what1
 ,i said1 will be the best limit for our
 rulers to fix when they are considering
 the size of the ,state and the amount  
of territory which they are to include1 
and beyond which they will not go8      
,what limit would you propose8  ,i would
 allow the ,state to increase so far as 
is consistent with unity2 that1 ,i      

think1 is the proper limit4  ,very good1
 he said4  ,here then1 ,i said1 is      
another order which will have to be     
conveyed to our guardians3  ,let our    
city be accounted neither large nor     
small1 but one and self-sufficing4  ,and
 surely1 said he1 this is not a very    
severe order which we impose upon them4 
,and the other1 said ,i1 of which we    
were speaking before is lighter still1  
,i mean the duty of degrading the       
offspring of the guardians when         
inferior1 and of elevating into the rank
 of guardians the offspring of the lower
 classes1 when naturally superior4  ,the
 intention was1 that1 in the case of the
 citizens generally1 each individual    
should be put to the use for which      
nature which nature intended him1 one to
 one work1 and then every man would do  
his own business1 and be one and not    
many2 and so the whole city would be one
 and not many4  ,yes1 he said2 that is  
not so difficult4  ,the regulations     
which we are prescribing1 my good       

,adeimantus1 are not1 as might be       
supposed1 a number of great principles1 
but trifles all1 if care be taken1 as   
the saying is1 of the one great         
thing1--a thing1 however1 which ,i would
 rather call1 not great1 but sufficient 
for our purpose4  ,what may that be8 he 
asked4  ,education1 ,i said1 and        
nurture3  ,if our citizens are well     
educated1 and grow into sensible men1   
they will easily see their way through  
all these1 as well as other matters     
which ,i omit2 such1 for example1 as    
marriage1 the possession of women and   
the procreation of children1 which will 
all follow the general principle that   
friends have all things in common1 as   
the proverb says4  ,that will be the    
best way of settling them4  ,also1 ,i   
said1 the ,state1 if once started well1 
moves with accumulating force like a    
wheel4  ,for good nurture and education 
implant good constitutions1 and these   
good constitutions taking root in a good
 education improve more and more1 and   

this improvement affects the breed in   
man as in other animals4  ,very         
possibly1 he said4  ,then to sum up3    
,this is the point to which1 above all1 
the attention of our rulers should be   
directed1--that music and gymnastic be  
preserved in their original form1 and no
 innovation made4  ,they must do their  
utmost to maintain them intact4  ,and   
when any one says that mankind most     
regard      ,the newest song which the  
singers have1  they will be afraid that 
he may be praising1 not new songs1 but a
 new kind of song2 and this ought not to
 be praised1 or conceived to be the     
meaning of the poet2 for any musical    
innovation is full of danger to the     
whole ,state1 and ought to be           
prohibited4  ,so ,damon tells me1 and ,i
 can quite believe him2-he says that    
when modes of music change1 of the      
,state always change with them4  ,yes1  
said ,adeimantus2 and you may add my    
suffrage to ,damon's and your own4      
,then1 ,i said1 our guardians must lay  

the foundations of their fortress in    
music8  ,yes1 he said2 the lawlessness  
of which you speak too easily steals in4
  ,yes1 ,i replied1 in the form of      
amusement2 and at first sight it appears
 harmless4  ,why1 yes1 he said1 and     
there is no harm2 were it not that      
little by little this spirit of licence1
 finding a home1 imperceptibly          
penetrates into manners and customs2    
whence1 issuing with greater force1 it  
invades contracts between man and man1  
and from contracts goes on to laws and  
constitutions1 in utter recklessness1   
ending at last1 ,socrates1 by an        
overthrow of all rights1 private as well
 as public4  ,is that true8  ,i said4   
,that is my belief1 he replied4  ,then1 
as ,i was saying1 our youth should be   
trained from the first in a stricter    
system1 for if amusements become        
lawless1 and the youths themselves      
become lawless1 they can never grow up  
into well-conducted and virtuous        
citizens4  ,very true1 he said4  ,and   

when they have made a good beginning in 
play1 and by the help of music have     
gained the habit of good order1 then    
this habit of order1 in a manner how    
unlike the lawless play of the others6  
will accompany them in all their actions
 and be a principle of growth to them1  
and if there be any fallen places a     
principle in the ,state will raise them 
up again4  ,very true1 he said4  ,thus  
educated1 they will invent for          
themselves any lesser rules which their 
predecessors have altogether neglected4 
,what do you mean8  ,i mean such things 
as these3--when the young are to be     
silent before their elders2 how they are
 to show respect to them by standing and
 making them sit2 what honour is due to 
parents2 what garments or shoes are to  
be worn2 the mode of dressing the hair2 
deportment and manners in general4  ,you
 would agree with me8  ,yes4  ,but there
 is1 ,i think1 small wisdom in          
legislating about such matters1--,i     
doubt if it is ever done2 nor are any   

precise written enactments about them   
likely to be lasting4  ,impossible4  ,it
 would seem1 ,adeimantus1 that the      
direction in which education starts a   
man1 will determine his future life4    
,does not like always attract like8  ,to
 be sure4  ,until some one rare and     
grand result is reached which may be    
good1 and may be the reverse of good8   
,that is not to be denied4  ,and for    
this reason1 ,i said1 ,i shall not      
attempt to legislate further about them4
  ,naturally enough1 he replied4  ,well1
 and about the business of the agora1   
dealings and the ordinary dealings      
between man and man1 or again about     
agreements with the commencement with   
artisans2 about insult and injury1 of   
the commencement of actions1 and the    
appointment of juries1 what would you   
say8 there may also arise questions     
about any impositions and extractions of
 market and harbour dues which may be   
required1 and in general about the      
regulations of markets1 police1         

harbours1 and the like4  ,but1 oh       
heavens6 shall we condescend to         
legislate on any of these particulars8  
,i think1 he said1 that there is no need
 to impose laws about them on good men2 
what regulations are necessary they will
 find out soon enough for themselves4   
,yes1 ,i said1 my friend1 if ,god will  
only preserve to them the laws which we 
have given them4  ,and without divine   
help1 said ,adeimantus1 they will go on 
for ever making and mending their laws  
and their lives in the hope of attaining
 perfection4  ,you would compare them1  
,i said1 to those invalids who1 having  
no self-restraint1 will not leave off   
their habits of intemperance8  ,exactly4
  ,yes1 ,i said2 and what a delightful  
life they lead6 they are always         
doctoring and increasing and            
complicating their disorders1 and always
 fancying that they will be cured by any
 nostrum which anybody advises them to  
try4  ,such cases are very common1 he   
said1 with invalids of this sort4  ,yes1

 ,i replied2 and the charming thing is  
that they deem him their worst enemy who
 tells them the truth1 which is simply  
that1 unless they give up eating and    
drinking and wenching and idling1       
neither drug nor cautery nor spell nor  
amulet nor any other remedy will avail4 
,charming6 he replied4  ,i see nothing  
charming in going into a passion with a 
man who tells you what is right4  ,these
 gentlemen1 ,i said1 do not seem to be  
in your good graces4  ,assuredly not4   
,nor would you praise the behaviour of  
,states which act like the men whom ,i  
was just now describing4  ,for are there
 not ill-ordered ,states in which the   
citizens are forbidden under pain of    
death to alter the constitution2 and yet
 he who most sweetly courts those who   
live under this regime and indulges them
 and fawns upon them and is skilful in  
anticipating and gratifying their       
humours is held to be a great and good  
statesman--do not these ,states resemble
 the persons whom ,i was describing8    

,yes1 he said2 the ,states are as bad as
 the men2 and ,i am very far from       
praising them4  ,but do you not admire1 
,i said1 the coolness and dexterity of  
these ready ministers of political      
corruption8  ,yes1 he said1 ,i do2 but  
not of all of them1 for there are some  
whom the applause of the multitude has  
deluded into the belief that they are   
really statesmen1 and these are not much
 to be admired4  ,what do you mean8  ,i 
said2 you should have more feeling for  
them4  ,when a man cannot measure1 and a
 great many others who cannot measure   
declare that he is four cubits high1 can
 he help believing what they say8  ,nay1
 he said1 certainly not in that case4   
,well1 then1 do not be angry with them2 
for are they not as good as a play1     
trying their hand at paltry reforms such
 as ,i was describing2 they are always  
fancying that by legislation they will  
make an end of frauds in contracts1 and 
the other rascalities which ,i was      
mentioning1 not knowing that they are in

 reality cutting off the heads of a     
hydra8  ,yes1 he said2 that is just what
 they are doing4  ,i conceive1 ,i said1 
that the true legislator will not       
trouble himself with this class of      
enactments whether concerning laws or   
the constitution either in an           
ill-ordered or in a well-ordered ,state2
 for in the former they are quite       
useless1 and in the latter there will be
 no difficulty in devising them2 and    
many of them will naturally flow out of 
our previous regulations4  ,what1 then1 
he said1 is still remaining to us of the
 work of legislation8  ,nothing to us1  
,i replied2 but to ,apollo1 the ,god of 
,delphi1 there remains the ordering of  
the greatest and noblest and chiefest   
things of all4  ,which are they8 he     
said4  ,the institution of temples and  
sacrifices1 and the entire service of   
gods1 demigods1 and heroes2 also the    
ordering of the repositories of the     
dead1 and the rites which have to be    
observed by him who would propitiate the

 inhabitants of the world below4  ,these
 are matters of which we are ignorant   
ourselves1 and as founders of a city we 
should be unwise in trusting them to any
 interpreter but our ancestral deity4   
,he is the god who sits in the center1  
on the navel of the earth1 and he is the
 interpreter of religion to all mankind4
  ,you are right1 and we will do as you 
propose4  ,but where1 amid all this1 is 
justice8 son of ,ariston1 tell me where4
 ,now that our city has been made       
habitable1 light a candle and search1   
and get your brother and ,polemarchus   
and the rest of our friends to help1 and
 let us see where in it we can discover 
justice and where injustice1 and in what
 they differ from one another1 and which
 of them the man who would be happy     
should have for his portion1 whether    
seen or unseen by gods and men4         
,,socrates - ,,glaucon  ,nonsense1 said 
,glaucon3  did you not promise to search
 yourself1 saying that for you not to   
help justice in her need would be an    

impiety8  ,i do not deny that ,i said   
so1 and as you remind me1 ,i will be as 
good as my word2 but you must join4  ,we
 will1 he replied4  ,well1 then1 ,i hope
 to make the discovery in this way3  ,i 
mean to begin with the assumption that  
our ,state1 if rightly ordered1 is      
perfect4  ,that is most certain4  ,and  
being perfect1 is therefore wise and    
valiant and temperate and just4  ,that  
is likewise clear4  ,and whichever of   
these qualities we find in the ,state1  
the one which is not found will be the  
residue8  ,very good4  ,if there were   
four things1 and we were searching for  
one of them1 wherever it might be1 the  
one sought for might be known to us from
 the first1 and there would be no       
further trouble2 or we might know the   
other three first1 and then the fourth  
would clearly be the one left4  ,very   
true1 he said4  ,and is not a similar   
method to be pursued about the virtues1 
which are also four in number8          
,clearly4  ,first among the virtues     

found in the ,state1 wisdom comes into  
view1 and in this ,i detect a certain   
peculiarity4  ,what is that8  ,the      
,state which we have been describing is 
said to be wise as being good in        
counsel8  ,very true4  ,and good counsel
 is clearly a kind of knowledge1 for not
 by ignorance1 but by knowledge1 do men 
counsel well8  ,clearly4  ,and the kinds
 of knowledge in a ,state are many and  
diverse8  ,of course4  ,there is the    
knowledge of the carpenter2 but is that 
the sort of knowledge which gives a city
 the title of wise and good in counsel8 
,certainly not2 that would only give a  
city the reputation of skill in         
carpentering4  ,then a city is not to be
 called wise because possessing a       
knowledge which counsels for the best   
about wooden implements8  ,certainly    
not4  ,nor by reason of a knowledge     
which advises about brazen pots1 ,i     
said1 nor as possessing any other       
similar knowledge8  ,not by reason of   
any of them1 he said4  ,nor yet by      

reason of a knowledge which cultivates  
the earth2 that would give the city the 
name of agricultural8  ,yes4  ,well1 ,i 
said1 and is there any knowledge in our 
recently founded ,state among any of the
 citizens which advises1 not about any  
particular thing in the ,state1 but     
about the whole1 and considers how a    
,state can best deal with itself and    
with other ,states8  ,there certainly   
is4  ,and what is knowledge1 and among  
whom is it found8  ,i asked4  ,it is the
 knowledge of the guardians1 he replied1
 and found among those whom we were just
 now describing as perfect guardians4   
,and what is the name which the city    
derives from the possession of this sort
 of knowledge8  ,the name of good in    
counsel and truly wise4  ,and will there
 be in our city more of these true      
guardians or more smiths8  ,the smiths1 
he replied1 will be far more numerous4  
,will not the guardians be the smallest 
of all the classes who receive a name   
from the profession of some kind of     

knowledge8  ,much the smallest4  ,and so
 by reason of the smallest part or      
class1 and of the knowledge which       
resides in this presiding and ruling    
part of itself1 the whole ,state1 being 
thus constituted according to nature1   
will be wise2 and this1 which has the   
only knowledge worthy to be called      
wisdom1 has been ordained by nature to  
be of all classes the least4  ,most     
true4  ,thus1 then1 ,i said1 the nature 
and place in the ,state of one of the   
four virtues has somehow or other been  
discovered4  ,and1 in my humble opinion1
 very satisfactorily discovered1 he     
replied4  ,again1 ,i said1 there is no  
difficulty in seeing the nature of      
courage2 and in what part that quality  
resides which gives the name of         
courageous to the ,state4  ,how do you  
mean8  ,why1 ,i said1 every one who     
calls any ,state courageous or cowardly1
 will be thinking of the part which     
fights and goes out to war on the       
,state's behalf4  ,no one1 he replied1  

would ever think of any other4          
,certainly not4  ,the rest of the       
citizens may be courageous or may be    
cowardly but their courage or cowardice 
will not1 as ,i conceive1 have the      
effect of making the city either the one
 or the other4  ,the city will be       
courageous in virtue of a portion of    
herself which preserves under all       
circumstances that opinion about the    
nature of things to be feared and not to
 be feared in which our legislator      
educated them2 and this is what you term
 courage4  ,i should like to hear what  
you are saying once more1 for ,i do not 
think that ,i perfectly understand you4 
,i mean that courage is a kind of       
salvation4  ,salvation of what8  ,of the
 opinion respecting things to be feared1
 what they are and of what nature1 which
 the law implants through education2 and
 ,i mean by the words 'under all        
circumstances' to intimate that in      
pleasure or in pain1 or under the       
influence of desire or fear1 a man      

preserves1 and does not lose this       
opinion4  ,shall ,i give you an         
illustration8  ,if you please4  ,you    
know1 ,i said1 that dyers1 when they    
want to dye wool for making the true    
sea-purple1 begin by selecting their    
white colour first2 this they prepare   
and dress with much care and pains1 in  
order that the white ground may take the
 purple hue in full perfection4  ,the   
dyeing then proceeds2 and whatever is   
dyed in this manner becomes a fast      
colour1 and no washing either with lyes 
or without them can take away the bloom4
  ,but1 when the ground has not been    
duly prepared1 you will have noticed how
 poor is the look either of purple or of
 any other colour4  ,yes1 he said2 ,i   
know that they have a washed-out and    
ridiculous appearance4  ,then now1 ,i   
said1 you will understand what our      
object was in selecting our soldiers1   
and educating them in music and         
gymnastic2 we were contriving influences
 which would prepare them to take the   

dye of the laws in perfection1 and the  
colour of their opinion about dangers   
and of every other opinion was to be    
indelibly fixed by their nurture and    
training1 not to be washed away by such 
potent lyes as pleasure--mightier agent 
far in washing the soul than any soda or
 lye2 or by sorrow1 fear1 and desire1   
the mightiest of all other solvents4    
,and this sort of universal saving power
 of true opinion in conformity with law 
about real and false dangers ,i call and
 maintain to be courage1 unless you     
disagree4  ,but ,i agree1 he replied2   
for ,i suppose that you mean to exclude 
mere uninstructed courage1 such as that 
of a wild beast or of a slave--this1 in 
your opinion1 is not the courage which  
the law ordains1 and ought to have      
another name4  ,most certainly4  ,then  
,i may infer courage to be such as you  
describe8  ,why1 yes1 said ,i1 you may1 
and if you add the words 'of a citizen1'
 you will not be far wrong2--hereafter1 
if you like1 we will carry the          

examination further1 but at present we  
are we w seeking not for courage but    
justice2 and for the purpose of our     
enquiry we have said enough4  ,you are  
right1 he replied4  ,two virtues remain 
to be discovered in the ,state-first    
temperance1 and then justice which is   
the end of our search4  ,very true4     
,now1 can we find justice without       
troubling ourselves about temperance8   
,i do not know how that can be          
accomplished1 he said1 nor do ,i desire 
that justice should be brought to light 
and temperance lost sight of2 and       
therefore ,i wish that you would do me  
the favour of considering temperance    
first4  ,certainly1 ,i replied1 ,i      
should not be justified in refusing your
 request4  ,then consider1 he said4     
,yes1 ,i replied2 ,i will2 and as far as
 ,i can at present see1 the virtue of   
temperance has more of the nature of    
harmony and symphony than the preceding4
  ,how so8 he asked4  ,temperance1 ,i   
replied1 is the ordering or controlling 

of certain pleasures and desires2 this  
is curiously enough implied in the      
saying of 'a man being his own master'  
and other traces of the same notion may 
be found in language4  ,no doubt1 he    
said4  ,there is something ridiculous in
 the expression 'master of himself'2 for
 the master is also the servant and the 
servant the master2 and in all these    
modes of speaking the same person is    
denoted4  ,certainly4  ,the meaning is1 
,i believe1 that in the human soul there
 is a better and also a worse principle2
 and when the better has the worse under
 control1 then a man is said to be      
master of himself2 and this is a term of
 praise3  but when1 owing to evil       
education or association1 the better    
principle1 which is also the smaller1 is
 overwhelmed by the greater mass of the 
worse--in this case he is blamed and is 
called the slave of self and            
unprincipled4  ,yes1 there is reason in 
that4  ,and now1 ,i said1 look at our   
newly created ,state1 and there you will

 find one of these two conditions       
realised2 for the ,state1 as you will   
acknowledge1 may be justly called master
 of itself1 if the words 'temperance'   
and 'self-mastery' truly express the    
rule of the better part over the worse4 
,yes1 he said1 ,i see that what you say 
is true4  ,let me further note that the 
manifold and complex pleasures and      
desires and pains are generally found in
 children and women and servants1 and in
 the freemen so called who are of the   
lowest and more numerous class4         
,certainly1 he said4  ,whereas the      
simple and moderate desires which follow
 reason1 and are under the guidance of  
mind and true opinion1 are to be found  
only in a few1 and those the best born  
and best educated4  ,very true4  ,these 
two1 as you may perceive1 have a place  
in our ,state2 and the meaner desires of
 the are held down by the virtuous      
desires and wisdom of the few4  ,that ,i
 perceive1 he said4  ,then if there be  
any city which may be described as      

master of its own pleasures and desires1
 and master of itself1 ours may claim   
such a designation8  ,certainly1 he     
replied4  ,it may also be called        
temperate1 and for the same reasons8    
,yes4  ,and if there be any ,state in   
which rulers and subjects will be agreed
 as to the question who are to rule1    
that again will be our ,state8          
,undoubtedly4  ,and the citizens being  
thus agreed among themselves1 in which  
class will temperance be found--in the  
rulers or in the subjects8  ,in both1 as
 ,i should imagine1 he replied4  ,do you
 observe that we were not far wrong in  
our guess that temperance was a sort of 
harmony8  ,why so8  ,why1 because       
temperance is unlike courage and wisdom1
 each of which resides in a part only1  
the one making the ,state wise and the  
other valiant2 not so temperance1 which 
extends to the whole1 and runs through  
all the notes of the scale1 and produces
 a harmony of the weaker and the        
stronger and the middle class1 whether  

you suppose them to be stronger or      
weaker in wisdom or power or numbers or 
wealth1 or anything else4  ,most truly  
then may we deem temperance to be the   
agreement of the naturally superior and 
inferior1 as to the right to rule of    
either1 both in states and individuals4 
,i entirely agree with you4  ,and so1 ,i
 said1 we may consider three out of the 
four virtues to have been discovered in 
our ,state4  ,the last of those         
qualities which make a state virtuous   
must be justice1 if we only knew what   
that was4  ,the inference is obvious4   
,the time then has arrived1 ,glaucon1   
when1 like huntsmen1 we should surround 
the cover1 and look sharp that justice  
does not steal away1 and pass out of    
sight and escape us2 for beyond a doubt 
she is somewhere in this country3  watch
 therefore and strive to catch a sight  
of her1 and if you see her first1 let me
 know4  ,would that ,i could6 but you   
should regard me rather as a follower   
who has just eyes enough to1 see what   

you show him--that is about as much as  
,i am good for4  ,offer up a prayer with
 me and follow4  ,i will1 but you must  
show me the way4  ,here is no path1 ,i  
said1 and the wood is dark and          
perplexing2 still we must push on4  ,let
 us push on4  ,here ,i saw something3   
,halloo6  ,i said1 ,i begin to perceive 
a track1 and ,i believe that the quarry 
will not escape4  ,good news1 he said4  
,truly1 ,i said1 we are stupid fellows4 
,why so8  ,why1 my good sir1 at the     
beginning of our enquiry1 ages ago1     
there was justice tumbling out at our   
feet1 and we never saw her2 nothing     
could be more ridiculous4  ,like people 
who go about looking for what they have 
in their hands--that was the way with   
us--we looked not at what we were       
seeking1 but at what was far off in the 
distance2 and therefore1 ,i suppose1 we 
missed her4  ,what do you mean8  ,i mean
 to say that in reality for a long time 
past we have been talking of justice1   
and have failed to recognise her4  ,i   

grow impatient at the length of your    
exordium4  ,well then1 tell me1 ,i said1
 whether ,i am right or not3 ,you       
remember the original principle which we
 were always laying down at the         
foundation of the ,state1 that one man  
should practise one thing only1 the     
thing to which his nature was best      
adapted2--now justice is this principle 
or a part of it4  ,yes1 we often said   
that one man should do one thing only4  
,further1 we affirmed that justice was  
doing one's own business1 and not being 
a busybody2 we said so again and again1 
and many others have said the same to   
us4  ,yes1 we said so4  ,then to do     
one's own business in a certain way may 
be assumed to be justice4  ,can you tell
 me whence ,i derive this inference8  ,i
 cannot1 but ,i should like to be told4 
,because ,i think that this is the only 
virtue which remains in the ,state when 
the other virtues of temperance and     
courage and wisdom are abstracted2 and1 
that this is the ultimate cause and     

condition of the existence of all of    
them1 and while remaining in them is    
also their preservative2 and we were    
saying that if the three were discovered
 by us1 justice would be the fourth or  
remaining one4  ,that follows of        
necessity4  ,if we are asked to         
determine which of these four qualities 
by its presence contributes most to the 
excellence of the ,state1 whether the   
agreement of rulers and subjects1 or the
 preservation in the soldiers of the    
opinion which the law ordains about the 
true nature of dangers1 or wisdom and   
watchfulness in the rulers1 or whether  
this other which ,i am mentioning1 and  
which is found in children and women1   
slave and freeman1 artisan1 ruler1      
subject1--the quality1 ,i mean1 of every
 one doing his own work1 and not being a
 busybody1 would claim the palm--the    
question is not so easily answered4     
,certainly1 he replied1 there would be a
 difficulty in saying which4  ,then the 
power of each individual in the ,state  

to do his own work appears to compete   
with the other political virtues1       
wisdom1 temperance1 courage4  ,yes1 he  
said4  ,and the virtue which enters into
 this competition is justice8  ,exactly4
  ,let us look at the question from     
another point of view3 ,are not the     
rulers in a ,state those to whom you    
would entrust the office of determining 
suits at law8  ,certainly4  ,and are    
suits decided on any other ground but   
that a man may neither take what is     
another's1 nor be deprived of what is   
his own8  ,yes2 that is their principle4
  ,which is a just principle8  ,yes4    
,then on this view also justice will be 
admitted to be the having and doing what
 is a man's own1 and belongs to him8    
,very true4  ,think1 now1 and say       
whether you agree with me or not4       
,suppose a carpenter to be doing the    
business of a cobbler1 or a cobbler of a
 carpenter2 and suppose them to exchange
 their implements or their duties1 or   
the same person to be doing the work of 

both1 or whatever be the change2 do you 
think that any great harm would result  
to the ,state8  ,not much4  ,but when   
the cobbler or any other man whom nature
 designed to be a trader1 having his    
heart lifted up by wealth or strength or
 the number of his followers1 or any    
like advantage1 attempts to force his   
way into the class of warriors1 or a    
warrior into that of legislators and    
guardians1 for which he is unfitted1 and
 either to take the implements or the   
duties of the other2 or when one man is 
trader1 legislator1 and warrior all in  
one1 then ,i think you will agree with  
me in saying that this interchange and  
this meddling of one with another is the
 ruin of the ,state4  ,most true4       
,seeing then1 ,i said1 that there are   
three distinct classes1 any meddling of 
one with another1 or the change of one  
into another1 is the greatest harm to   
the ,state1 and may be most justly      
termed evil-doing8  ,precisely4  ,and   
the greatest degree of evil-doing to    

one's own city would be termed by you   
injustice8  ,certainly4  ,this then is  
injustice2 and on the other hand when   
the trader1 the auxiliary1 and the      
guardian each do their own business1    
that is justice1 and will make the city 
just4  ,i agree with you4  ,we will not1
 ,i said1 be over-positive as yet2 but  
if1 on trial1 this conception of justice
 be verified in the individual as well  
as in the ,state1 there will be no      
longer any room for doubt2 if it be not 
verified1 we must have a fresh enquiry4 
,first let us complete the old          
investigation1 which we began1 as you   
remember1 under the impression that1 if 
we could previously examine justice on  
the larger scale1 there would be less   
difficulty in discerning her in the     
individual4  ,that larger example       
appeared to be the ,state1 and          
accordingly we constructed as good a one
 as we could1 knowing well that in the  
good ,state justice would be found4     
,let the discovery which we made be now 

applied to the individual--if they      
agree1 we shall be satisfied2 or1 if    
there be a difference in the individual1
 we will come back to the ,state and    
have another trial of the theory4  ,the 
friction of the two when rubbed together
 may possibly strike a light in which   
justice will shine forth1 and the vision
 which is then revealed we will fix in  
our souls4  ,that will be in regular    
course2 let us do as you say4  ,i       
proceeded to ask3  ,when two things1 a  
greater and less1 are called by the same
 name1 are they like or unlike in so far
 as they are called the same8  ,like1 he
 replied4  ,the just man then1 if we    
regard the idea of justice only1 will be
 like the just ,state8  ,he will4  ,and 
a ,state was thought by us to be just   
when the three classes in the ,state    
severally did their own business2 and   
also thought to be temperate and valiant
 and wise by reason of certain other    
affections and qualities of these same  
classes8  ,true1 he said4  ,and so of   

the individual2 we may assume that he   
has the same three principles in his own
 soul which are found in the ,state2 and
 he may be rightly described in the same
 terms1 because he is affected in the   
same manner8  ,certainly1 he said4      
,once more then1 ,o my friend1 we have  
alighted upon an easy question--whether 
the soul has these three principles or  
not8  ,an easy question6  ,nay1 rather1 
,socrates1 the proverb holds that hard  
is the good4  ,very true1 ,i said2 and  
,i do not think that the method which we
 are employing is at all adequate to the
 accurate solution of this question2 the
 true method is another and a longer    
one4  ,still we may arrive at a solution
 not below the level of the previous    
enquiry4  ,may we not be satisfied with 
that8 he said2--under the circumstances1
 ,i am quite content4  ,i too1 ,i       
replied1 shall be extremely well        
satisfied4  ,then faint not in pursuing 
the speculation1 he said4  ,must we not 
acknowledge1 ,i said1 that in each of us

 there are the same principles and      
habits which there are in the ,state2   
and that from the individual they pass  
into the ,state8--how else can they come
 there8 ,take the quality of passion or 
spirit2--it would be ridiculous to      
imagine that this quality1 when found in
 ,states1 is not derived from the       
individuals who are supposed to possess 
it1 e4g4 the ,thracians1 ,scythians1 and
 in general the northern nations2 and   
the same may be said of the love of     
knowledge1 which is the special         
characteristic of our part of the world1
 or of the love of money1 which may1    
with equal truth1 be attributed to the  
,phoenicians and ,egyptians4  ,exactly  
so1 he said4  ,there is no difficulty in
 understanding this4  ,none whatever4   
,but the question is not quite so easy  
when we proceed to ask whether these    
principles are three or one2 whether1   
that is to say1 we learn with one part  
of our nature1 are angry with another1  
and with a third part desire the        

satisfaction of our natural appetites2  
or whether the whole soul comes into    
play in each sort of action--to         
determine that is the difficulty4  ,yes1
 he said2 there lies the difficulty4    
,then let us now try and determine      
whether they are the same or different4 
,how can we8 he asked4  ,i replied as   
follows3  ,the same thing clearly cannot
 act or be acted upon in the same part  
or in relation to the same thing at the 
same time1 in contrary ways2 and        
therefore whenever this contradiction   
occurs in things apparently the same1 we
 know that they are really not the same1
 but different4  ,good4  ,for example1  
,i said1 can the same thing be at rest  
and in motion at the same time in the   
same part8  ,impossible4  ,still1 ,i    
said1 let us have a more precise        
statement of terms1 lest we should      
hereafter fall out by the way4  ,imagine
 the case of a man who is standing and  
also moving his hands and his head1 and 
suppose a person to say that one and the

 same person is in motion and at rest at
 the same moment-to such a mode of      
speech we should object1 and should     
rather say that one part of him is in   
motion while another is at rest4  ,very 
true4  ,and suppose the objector to     
refine still further1 and to draw the   
nice distinction that not only parts of 
tops1 but whole tops1 when they spin    
round with their pegs fixed on the spot1
 are at rest and in motion at the same  
time 7and he may say the same of        
anything which revolves in the same     
spot71 his objection would not be       
admitted by us1 because in such cases   
things are not at rest and in motion in 
the same parts of themselves2 we should 
rather say that they have both an axis  
and a circumference1 and that the axis  
stands still1 for there is no deviation 
from the perpendicular2 and that the    
circumference goes round4  ,but if1     
while revolving1 the axis inclines      
either to the right or left1 forwards or
 backwards1 then in no point of view can

 they be at rest4  ,that is the correct 
mode of describing them1 he replied4    
,then none of these objections will     
confuse us1 or incline us to believe    
that the same thing at the same time1 in
 the same part or in relation to the    
same thing1 can act or be acted upon in 
contrary ways4  ,certainly not1         
according to my way of thinking4  ,yet1 
,i said1 that we may not be compelled to
 examine all such objections1 and prove 
at length that they are untrue1 let us  
assume their absurdity1 and go forward  
on the understanding that hereafter1 if 
this assumption turn out to be untrue1  
all the consequences which follow shall 
be withdrawn4  ,yes1 he said1 that will 
be the best way4  ,well1 ,i said1 would 
you not allow that assent and dissent1  
desire and aversion1 attraction and     
repulsion1 are all of them opposites1   
whether they are regarded as active or  
passive 7for that makes no difference in
 the fact of their opposition78  ,yes1  
he said1 they are opposites4  ,well1 ,i 

said1 and hunger and thirst1 and the    
desires in general1 and again willing   
and wishing1--all these you would refer 
to the classes already mentioned4  ,you 
would say--would you not8--that the soul
 of him who desires is seeking after the
 object of his desires2 or that he is   
drawing to himself the thing which he   
wishes to possess3 or again1 when a     
person wants anything to be given him1  
his mind1 longing for the realisation of
 his desires1 intimates his wish to have
 it by a nod of assent1 as if he had    
been asked a question8  ,very true4     
,and what would you say of unwillingness
 and dislike and the absence of desire2 
should not these be referred to the     
opposite class of repulsion and         
rejection8  ,certainly4  ,admitting this
 to be true of desire generally1 let us 
suppose a particular class of desires1  
and out of these we will select hunger  
and thirst1 as they are termed1 which   
are the most obvious of them8  ,let us  
take that class1 he said4  ,the object  

of one is food1 and of the other drink8 
,yes4  ,and here comes the point3  is   
not thirst the desire which the soul has
 of drink1 and of drink only2 not of    
drink qualified by anything else2 for   
example1 warm or cold1 or much or       
little1 or1 in a word1 drink of any     
particular sort3  but if the thirst be  
accompanied by heat1 then the desire is 
of cold drink2 or1 if accompanied by    
cold1 then of warm drink2 or1 if the    
thirst be excessive1 then the drink     
which is desired will be excessive2 or1 
if not great1 the quantity of drink will
 also be small3  but thirst pure and    
simple will desire drink pure and       
simple1 which is the natural            
satisfaction of thirst1 as food is of   
hunger8  ,yes1 he said2 the simple      
desire is1 as you say1 in every case of 
the simple object1 and the qualified    
desire of the qualified object4  ,but   
here a confusion may arise2 and ,i      
should wish to guard against an opponent
 starting up and saying that no man     

desires drink only1 but good drink1 or  
food only1 but good food2 for good is   
the universal object of desire1 and     
thirst being a desire1 will necessarily 
be thirst after good drink2 and the same
 is true of every other desire4  ,yes1  
he replied1 the opponent might have     
something to say4  ,nevertheless ,i     
should still maintain1 that of relatives
 some have a quality attached to either 
term of the relation2 others are simple 
and have their correlatives simple4  ,i 
do not know what you mean4  ,well1 you  
know of course that the greater is      
relative to the less8  ,certainly4  ,and
 the much greater to the much less8     
,yes4  ,and the sometime greater to the 
sometime less1 and the greater that is  
to be to the less that is to be8        
,certainly1 he said4  ,and so of more   
and less1 and of other correlative      
terms1 such as the double and the half1 
or again1 the heavier and the lighter1  
the swifter and the slower2 and of hot  
and cold1 and of any other              

relatives2--is not this true of all of  
them8  ,yes4  ,and does not the same    
principle hold in the sciences8  ,the   
object of science is knowledge 7assuming
 that to be the true definition71 but   
the object of a particular science is a 
particular kind of knowledge2 ,i mean1  
for example1 that the science of        
house-building is a kind of knowledge   
which is defined and distinguished from 
other kinds and is therefore termed     
architecture4  ,certainly4  ,because it 
has a particular quality which no other 
has8  ,yes4  ,and it has this particular
 quality because it has an object of a  
particular kind2 and this is true of the
 other arts and sciences8  ,yes4  ,now1 
then1 if ,i have made myself clear1 you 
will understand my original meaning in  
what ,i said about relatives4  ,my      
meaning was1 that if one term of a      
relation is taken alone1 the other is   
taken alone2 if one term is qualified1  
the other is also qualified4  ,i do not 
mean to say that relatives may not be   

disparate1 or that the science of health
 is healthy1 or of disease necessarily  
diseased1 or that the sciences of good  
and evil are therefore good and evil2   
but only that1 when the term science is 
no longer used absolutely1 but has a    
qualified object which in this case is  
the nature of health and disease1 it    
becomes defined1 and is hence called not
 merely science1 but the science of     
medicine4  ,i quite understand1 and ,i  
think as you do4  ,would you not say    
that thirst is one of these essentially 
relative terms1 having clearly a        
relation--  ,yes1 thirst is relative to 
drink4  ,and a certain kind of thirst is
 relative to a certain kind of drink2   
but thirst taken alone is neither of    
much nor little1 nor of good nor bad1   
nor of any particular kind of drink1 but
 of drink only8  ,certainly4  ,then the 
soul of the thirsty one1 in so far as he
 is thirsty1 desires only drink2 for    
this he yearns and tries to obtain it8  
,that is plain4  ,and if you suppose    

something which pulls a thirsty soul    
away from drink1 that must be different 
from the thirsty principle which draws  
him like a beast to drink2 for1 as we   
were saying1 the same thing cannot at   
the same time with the same part of     
itself act in contrary ways about the   
same4  ,impossible4  ,no more than you  
can say that the hands of the archer    
push and pull the bow at the same time1 
but what you say is that one hand pushes
 and the other pulls4  ,exactly so1 he  
replied4  ,and might a man be thirsty1  
and yet unwilling to drink8  ,yes1 he   
said1 it constantly happens4  ,and in   
such a case what is one to say8  ,would 
you not say that there was something in 
the soul bidding a man to drink1 and    
something else forbidding him1 which is 
other and stronger than the principle   
which bids him8  ,i should say so4  ,and
 the forbidding principle is derived    
from reason1 and that which bids and    
attracts proceeds from passion and      
disease8  ,clearly4  ,then we may fairly

 assume that they are two1 and that they
 differ from one another2 the one with  
which man reasons1 we may call the      
rational principle of the soul1 the     
other1 with which he loves and hungers  
and thirsts and feels the flutterings of
 any other desire1 may be termed the    
irrational or appetitive1 the ally of   
sundry pleasures and satisfactions8     
,yes1 he said1 we may fairly assume them
 to be different4  ,then let us finally 
determine that there are two principles 
existing in the soul4  ,and what of     
passion1 or spirit8  ,is it a third1 or 
akin to one of the preceding8  ,i should
 be inclined to say--akin to desire4    
,well1 ,i said1 there is a story which  
,i remember to have heard1 and in which 
,i put faith4  ,the story is1 that      
,leontius1 the son of ,aglaion1 coming  
up one day from the ,piraeus1 under the 
north wall on the outside1 observed some
 dead bodies lying on the ground at the 
place of execution4  ,he felt a desire  
to see them1 and also a dread and       

abhorrence of them2 for a time he       
struggled and covered his eyes1 but at  
length the desire got the better of him2
 and forcing them open1 he ran up to the
 dead bodies1 saying1 ,look1 ye         
wretches1 take your fill of the fair    
sight4  ,i have heard the story myself1 
he said4  ,the moral of the tale is1    
that anger at times goes to war with    
desire1 as though they were two distinct
 things4  ,yes2 that is the meaning1 he 
said4  ,and are there not many other    
cases in which we observe that when a   
man's desires violently prevail over his
 reason1 he reviles himself1 and is     
angry at the violence within him1 and   
that in this struggle1 which is like the
 struggle of factions in a ,state1 his  
spirit is on the side of his            
reason2--but for the passionate or      
spirited element to take part with the  
desires when reason that she should not 
be opposed1 is a sort of thing which    
thing which ,i believe that you never   
observed occurring in yourself1 nor1 as 

,i should imagine1 in any one else8     
,certainly not4  ,suppose that a man    
thinks he has done a wrong to another1  
the nobler he is the less able is he to 
feel indignant at any suffering1 such as
 hunger1 or cold1 or any other pain     
which the injured person may inflict    
upon him--these he deems to be just1    
and1 as ,i say1 his anger refuses to be 
excited by them4  ,true1 he said4  ,but 
when he thinks that he is the sufferer  
of the wrong1 then he boils and chafes1 
and is on the side of what he believes  
to be justice2 and because he suffers   
hunger or cold or other pain he is only 
the more determined to persevere and    
conquer4  ,his noble spirit will not be 
quelled until he either slays or is     
slain2 or until he hears the voice of   
the shepherd1 that is1 reason1 bidding  
his dog bark no more4  ,the illustration
 is perfect1 he replied2 and in our     
,state1 as we were saying1 the          
auxiliaries were to be dogs1 and to hear
 the voice of the rulers1 who are their 

shepherds4  ,i perceive1 ,i said1 that  
you quite understand me2 there is1      
however1 a further point which ,i wish  
you to consider4  ,what point8  ,you    
remember that passion or spirit appeared
 at first sight to be a kind of desire1 
but now we should say quite the         
contrary2 for in the conflict of the    
soul spirit is arrayed on the side of   
the rational principle4  ,most          
assuredly4  ,but a further question     
arises3  ,is passion different from     
reason also1 or only a kind of reason2  
in which latter case1 instead of three  
principles in the soul1 there will only 
be two1 the rational and the            
concupiscent2 or rather1 as the ,state  
was composed of three classes1 traders1 
auxiliaries1 counsellors1 so may there  
not be in the individual soul a third   
element which is passion or spirit1 and 
when not corrupted by bad education is  
the natural auxiliary of reason  ,yes1  
he said1 there must be a third4  ,yes1  
,i replied1 if passion1 which has       

already been shown to be different from 
desire1 turn out also to be different   
from reason4  ,but that is easily       
proved3--,we may observe even in young  
children that they are full of spirit   
almost as soon as they are born1 whereas
 some of them never seem to attain to   
the use of reason1 and most of them late
 enough4  ,excellent1 ,i said1 and you  
may see passion equally in brute        
animals1 which is a further proof of the
 truth of what you are saying4  ,and we 
may once more appeal to the words of    
,homer1 which have been already quoted  
by us1      ,he smote his breast1 and   
thus rebuked his soul1  for in this     
verse ,homer has clearly supposed the   
power which reasons about the better and
 worse to be different from the         
unreasoning anger which is rebuked by   
it4  ,very true1 he said4  ,and so1     
after much tossing1 we have reached     
land1 and are fairly agreed that the    
same principles which exist in the      
,state exist also in the individual1 and

 that they are three in number4         
,exactly4  ,must we not then infer that 
the individual is wise in the same way1 
and in virtue of the same quality which 
makes the ,state wise8  ,certainly4     
,also that the same quality which       
constitutes courage in the ,state       
constitutes courage in the individual1  
and that both the ,state and the        
individual bear the same relation to all
 the other virtues8  ,assuredly4  ,and  
the individual will be acknowledged by  
us to be just in the same way in which  
the ,state is just8  ,that follows1 of  
course4  ,we cannot but remember that   
the justice of the ,state consisted in  
each of the three classes doing the work
 of its own class8  ,we are not very    
likely to have forgotten1 he said4  ,we 
must recollect that the individual in   
whom the several qualities of his nature
 do their own work will be just1 and    
will do his own work8  ,yes1 he said1 we
 must remember that too4  ,and ought not
 the rational principle1 which is wise1 

and has the care of the whole soul1 to  
rule1 and the passionate or spirited    
principle to be the subject and ally8   
,certainly4  ,and1 as we were saying1   
the united influence of music and       
gymnastic will bring them into accord1  
nerving and sustaining the reason with  
noble words and lessons1 and moderating 
and soothing and civilizing the wildness
 of passion by harmony and rhythm8      
,quite true1 he said4  ,and these two1  
thus nurtured and educated1 and having  
learned truly to know their own         
functions1 will rule over the           
concupiscent1 which in each of us is the
 largest part of the soul and by nature 
most insatiable of gain2 over this they 
will keep guard1 lest1 waxing great and 
strong with the fulness of bodily       
pleasures1 as they are termed1 the      
concupiscent soul1 no longer confined to
 her own sphere1 should attempt to      
enslave and rule those who are not her  
natural-born subjects1 and overturn the 
whole life of man8  ,very true1 he said4

  ,both together will they not be the   
best defenders of the whole soul and the
 whole body against attacks from        
without2 the one counselling1 and the   
other fighting under his leader1 and    
courageously executing his commands and 
counsels8  ,true4  ,and he is to be     
deemed courageous whose spirit retains  
in pleasure and in pain the commands of 
reason about what he ought or ought not 
to fear8  ,right1 he replied4  ,and him 
we call wise who has in him that little 
part which rules1 and which proclaims   
these commands2 that part too being     
supposed to have a knowledge of what is 
for the interest of each of the three   
parts and of the whole8  ,assuredly4    
,and would you not say that he is       
temperate who has these same elements in
 friendly harmony1 in whom the one      
ruling principle of reason1 and the two 
subject ones of spirit and desire are   
equally agreed that reason ought to     
rule1 and do not rebel8  ,certainly1 he 
said1 that is the true account of       

temperance whether in the ,state or     
individual4  ,and surely1 ,i said1 we   
have explained again and again how and  
by virtue of what quality a man will be 
just4  ,that is very certain4  ,and is  
justice dimmer in the individual1 and is
 her form different1 or is she the same 
which we found her to be in the ,state8 
,there is no difference in my opinion1  
he said4  ,because1 if any doubt is     
still lingering in our minds1 a few     
commonplace instances will satisfy us of
 the truth of what ,i am saying4  ,what 
sort of instances do you mean8  ,if the 
case is put to us1 must we not admit    
that the just ,state1 or the man who is 
trained in the principles of such a     
,state1 will be less likely than the    
unjust to make away with a deposit of   
gold or silver8 ,would any one deny     
this8  ,no one1 he replied4  ,will the  
just man or citizen ever be guilty of   
sacrilege or theft1 or treachery either 
to his friends or to his country8       
,never4  ,neither will he ever break    

faith where there have been oaths or    
agreements8  ,impossible4  ,no one will 
be less likely to commit adultery1 or to
 dishonour his father and mother1 or to 
fall in his religious duties8  ,no one4 
,and the reason is that each part of him
 is doing its own business1 whether in  
ruling or being ruled8  ,exactly so4    
,are you satisfied then that the quality
 which makes such men and such states is
 justice1 or do you hope to discover    
some other8  ,not ,i1 indeed4  ,then our
 dream has been realised2 and the       
suspicion which we entertained at the   
beginning of our work of construction1  
that some divine power must have        
conducted us to a primary form of       
justice1 has now been verified8  ,yes1  
certainly4  ,and the division of labour 
which required the carpenter and the    
shoemaker and the rest of the citizens  
to be doing each his own business1 and  
not another's1 was a shadow of justice1 
and for that reason it was of use8      
,clearly4  ,but in reality justice was  

such as we were describing1 being       
concerned however1 not with the outward 
man1 but with the inward1 which is the  
true self and concernment of man3  for  
the just man does not permit the several
 elements within him to interfere with  
one another1 or any of them to do the   
work of others1--he sets in order his   
own inner life1 and is his own master   
and his own law1 and at peace with      
himself2 and when he has bound together 
the three principles within him1 which  
may be compared to the higher1 lower1   
and middle notes of the scale1 and the  
intermediate intervals--when he has     
bound all these together1 and is no     
longer many1 but has become one entirely
 temperate and perfectly adjusted       
nature1 then he proceeds to act1 if he  
has to act1 whether in a matter of      
property1 or in the treatment of the    
body1 or in some affair of politics or  
private business2 always thinking and   
calling that which preserves and        
co-operates with this harmonious        

condition1 just and good action1 and the
 knowledge which presides over it1      
wisdom1 and that which at any time      
impairs this condition1 he will call    
unjust action1 and the opinion which    
presides over it ignorance4  ,you have  
said the exact truth1 ,socrates4  ,very 
good2 and if we were to affirm that we  
had discovered the just man and the just
 ,state1 and the nature of justice in   
each of them1 we should not be telling a
 falsehood8  ,most certainly not4  ,may 
we say so1 then8  ,let us say so4  ,and 
now1 ,i said1 injustice has to be       
considered4  ,clearly4  ,must not       
injustice be a strife which arises among
 the three principles--a meddlesomeness1
 and interference1 and rising up of a   
part of the soul against the whole1 an  
assertion of unlawful authority1 which  
is made by a rebellious subject against 
a true prince1 of whom he is the natural
 vassal1--what is all this confusion and
 delusion but injustice1 and            
intemperance and cowardice and          

ignorance1 and every form of vice8      
,exactly so4  ,and if the nature of     
justice and injustice be known1 then the
 meaning of acting unjustly and being   
unjust1 or1 again1 of acting justly1    
will also be perfectly clear8  ,what do 
you mean8 he said4  ,why1 ,i said1 they 
are like disease and health2 being in   
the soul just what disease and health   
are in the body4  ,how so8 he said4     
,why1 ,i said1 that which is healthy    
causes health1 and that which is        
unhealthy causes disease4  ,yes4  ,and  
just actions cause justice1 and unjust  
actions cause injustice8  ,that is      
certain4  ,and the creation of health is
 the institution of a natural order and 
government of one by another in the     
parts of the body2 and the creation of  
disease is the production of a state of 
things at variance with this natural    
order8  ,true4  ,and is not the creation
 of justice the institution of a natural
 order and government of one by another 
in the parts of the soul1 and the       

creation of injustice the production of 
a state of things at variance with the  
natural order8  ,exactly so1 he said4   
,then virtue is the health and beauty   
and well-being of the soul1 and vice the
 disease and weakness and deformity of  
the same8  ,true4  ,and do not good     
practices lead to virtue1 and evil      
practices to vice8  ,assuredly4  ,still 
our old question of the comparative     
advantage of justice and injustice has  
not been answered3  ,which is the more  
profitable1 to be just and act justly   
and practise virtue1 whether seen or    
unseen of gods and men1 or to be unjust 
and act unjustly1 if only unpunished and
 unreformed8  ,in my judgment1          
,socrates1 the question has now become  
ridiculous4  ,we know that1 when the    
bodily constitution is gone1 life is no 
longer endurable1 though pampered with  
all kinds of meats and drinks1 and      
having all wealth and all power2 and    
shall we be told that when the very     
essence of the vital principle is       

undermined and corrupted1 life is still 
worth having to a man1 if only he be    
allowed to do whatever he likes with the
 single exception that he is not to     
acquire justice and virtue1 or to escape
 from injustice and vice2 assuming them 
both to be such as we have described8   
,yes1 ,i said1 the question is1 as you  
say1 ridiculous4  ,still1 as we are near
 the spot at which we may see the truth 
in the clearest manner with our own     
eyes1 let us not faint by the way4      
,certainly not1 he replied4  ,come up   
hither1 ,i said1 and behold the various 
forms of vice1 those of them1 ,i mean1  
which are worth looking at4  ,i am      
following you1 he replied3  proceed4  ,i
 said1 ,the argument seems to have      
reached a height from which1 as from    
some tower of speculation1 a man may    
look down and see that virtue is one1   
but that the forms of vice are          
innumerable2 there being four special   
ones which are deserving of note4  ,what
 do you mean8 he said4  ,i mean1 ,i     

replied1 that there appear to be as many
 forms of the soul as there are distinct
 forms of the ,state4  ,how many8       
,there are five of the ,state1 and five 
of the soul1 ,i said4  ,what are they8  
,the first1 ,i said1 is that which we   
have been describing1 and which may be  
said to have two names1 monarchy and    
aristocracy1 accordingly as rule is     
exercised by one distinguished man or by
 many4  ,true1 he replied4  ,but ,i     
regard the two names as describing one  
form only2 for whether the government is
 in the hands of one or many1 if the    
governors have been trained in the      
manner which we have supposed1 the      
fundamental laws of the ,state will be  
maintained4  ,that is true1 he replied4 
,,book ,v   ,,socrates - ,,glaucon -    
,,adeimantus  ,,such is the good and    
true ,city or ,state1 and the good and  
man is of the same pattern2 and if this 
is right every other is wrong2 and the  
evil is one which affects not only the  
ordering of the ,state1 but also the    

regulation of the individual soul1 and  
is exhibited in four forms4  ,what are  
they8 he said4  ,i was proceeding to    
tell the order in which the four evil   
forms appeared to me to succeed one     
another1 when ,pole marchus1 who was    
sitting a little way off1 just beyond   
,adeimantus1 began to whisper to him3   
stretching forth his hand1 he took hold 
of the upper part of his coat by the    
shoulder1 and drew him towards him1     
leaning forward himself so as to be     
quite close and saying something in his 
ear1 of which ,i only caught the words1 
',shall we let him off1 or what shall we
 do8'  ,certainly not1 said ,adeimantus1
 raising his voice4  ,who is it1 ,i     
said1 whom you are refusing to let off8 
,you1 he said4  ,i repeated1 ,why am ,i 
especially not to be let off8  ,why1 he 
said1 we think that you are lazy1 and   
mean to cheat us out of a whole chapter 
which is a very important part of the   
story2 and you fancy that we shall not  
notice your airy way of proceeding2 as  

if it were self-evident to everybody1   
that in the matter of women and children
 'friends have all things in common4'   
,and was ,i not right1 ,adeimantus8     
,yes1 he said2 but what is right in this
 particular case1 like everything else1 
requires to be explained2 for community 
may be of many kinds4  ,please1         
therefore1 to say what sort of community
 you mean4  ,we have been long expecting
 that you would tell us something about 
the family life of your citizens--how   
they will bring children into the world1
 and rear them when they have arrived1  
and1 in general1 what is the nature of  
this community of women and children-for
 we are of opinion that the right or    
wrong management of such matters will   
have a great and paramount influence on 
the ,state for good or for evil4  ,and  
now1 since the question is still        
undetermined1 and you are taking in hand
 another ,state1 we have resolved1 as   
you heard1 not to let you go until you  
give an account of all this4  ,to that  

resolution1 said ,glaucon1 you may      
regard me as saying ,agreed4  ,,socrates
 - ,,adeimantus - ,,glaucon -           
,,thrasymachus  ,and without more ado1  
said ,thrasymachus1 you may consider us 
all to be equally agreed4  ,i said1 ,you
 know not what you are doing in thus    
assailing me3 ,what an argument are you 
raising about the ,state6  ,just as ,i  
thought that ,i had finished1 and was   
only too glad that ,i had laid this     
question to sleep1 and was reflecting   
how fortunate ,i was in your acceptance 
of what ,i then said1 you ask me to     
begin again at the very foundation1     
ignorant of what a hornet's nest of     
words you are stirring4  ,now ,i foresaw
 this gathering trouble1 and avoided it4
  ,for what purpose do you conceive that
 we have come here1 said                
,thrasymachus1--to look for gold1 or to 
hear discourse8  ,yes1 but discourse    
should have a limit4  ,yes1 ,socrates1  
said ,glaucon1 and the whole of life is 
the only limit which wise men assign to 

the hearing of such discourses4  ,but   
never mind about us2 take heart yourself
 and answer the question in your own    
way3 ,what sort of community of women   
and children is this which is to prevail
 among our guardians8 and how shall we  
manage the period between birth and     
education1 which seems to require the   
greatest care8  ,tell us how these      
things will be4  ,yes1 my simple friend1
 but the answer is the reverse of easy2 
many more doubts arise about this than  
about our previous conclusions4  ,for   
the practicability of what is said may  
be doubted2 and looked at in another    
point of view1 whether the scheme1 if   
ever so practicable1 would be for the   
best1 is also doubtful4  ,hence ,i feel 
a reluctance to approach the subject1   
lest our aspiration1 my dear friend1    
should turn out to be a dream only4     
,fear not1 he replied1 for your audience
 will not be hard upon you2 they are not
 sceptical or hostile4  ,i said3  ,my   
good friend1 ,i suppose that you mean to

 encourage me by these words4  ,yes1 he 
said4  ,then let me tell you that you   
are doing just the reverse2 the         
encouragement which you offer would have
 been all very well had ,i myself       
believed that ,i knew what ,i was       
talking about3 to declare the truth     
about matters of high interest which a  
man honours and loves among wise men who
 love him need occasion no fear or      
faltering in his mind2 but to carry on  
an argument when you are yourself only a
 hesitating enquirer1 which is my       
condition1 is a dangerous and slippery  
thing2 and the danger is not that ,i    
shall be laughed at 7of which the fear  
would be childish71 but that ,i shall   
miss the truth where ,i have most need  
to be sure of my footing1 and drag my   
friends after me in my fall4  ,and ,i   
pray ,nemesis not to visit upon me the  
words which ,i am going to utter4  ,for 
,i do indeed believe that to be an      
involuntary homicide is a less crime    
than to be a deceiver about beauty or   

goodness or justice in the matter of    
laws4  ,and that is a risk which ,i     
would rather run among enemies than     
among friends1 and therefore you do well
 to encourage me4  ,glaucon laughed and 
said3  ,well then1 ,socrates1 in case   
you and your argument do us any serious 
injury you shall be acquitted beforehand
 of the and shall not be held to be a   
deceiver2 take courage then and speak4  
,well1 ,i said1 the law says that when a
 man is acquitted he is free from guilt1
 and what holds at law may hold in      
argument4  ,then why should you mind8   
,well1 ,i replied1 ,i suppose that ,i   
must retrace my steps and say what ,i   
perhaps ought to have said before in the
 proper place4  ,the part of the men has
 been played out1 and now properly      
enough comes the turn of the women4  ,of
 them ,i will proceed to speak1 and the 
more readily since ,i am invited by you4
  ,for men born and educated like our   
citizens1 the only way1 in my opinion1  
of arriving at a right conclusion about 

the possession and use of women and     
children is to follow the path on which 
we originally started1 when we said that
 the men were to be the guardians and   
watchdogs of the herd4  ,true4  ,let us 
further suppose the birth and education 
of our women to be subject to similar or
 nearly similar regulations2 then we    
shall see whether the result accords    
with our design4  ,what do you mean8    
,what ,i mean may be put into the form  
of a question1 ,i said3 ,are dogs       
divided into hes and shes1 or do they   
both share equally in hunting and in    
keeping watch and in the other duties of
 dogs8 or do we entrust to the males the
 entire and exclusive care of the       
flocks1 while we leave the females at   
home1 under the idea that the bearing   
and suckling their puppies is labour    
enough for them8  ,no1 he said1 they    
share alike2 the only difference between
 them is that the males are stronger and
 the females weaker4  ,but can you use  
different animals for the same purpose1 

unless they are bred and fed in the same
 way8  ,you cannot4  ,then1 if women are
 to have the same duties as men1 they   
must have the same nurture and          
education8  ,yes4  ,the education which 
was assigned to the men was music and   
gymnastic4 ,yes4  ,then women must be   
taught music and gymnastic and also the 
art of war1 which they must practise    
like the men8  ,that is the inference1  
,i suppose4  ,i should rather expect1 ,i
 said1 that several of our proposals1 if
 they are carried out1 being unusual1   
may appear ridiculous4  ,no doubt of it4
  ,yes1 and the most ridiculous thing of
 all will be the sight of women naked in
 the palaestra1 exercising with the men1
 especially when they are no longer     
young2 they certainly will not be a     
vision of beauty1 any more than the     
enthusiastic old men who in spite of    
wrinkles and ugliness continue to       
frequent the gymnasia4  ,yes1 indeed1 he
 said3  according to present notions the
 proposal would be thought ridiculous4  

,but then1 ,i said1 as we have          
determined to speak our minds1 we must  
not fear the jests of the wits which    
will be directed against this sort of   
innovation2 how they will talk of       
women's attainments both in music and   
gymnastic1 and above all about their    
wearing armour and riding upon          
horseback6  ,very true1 he replied4     
,yet having begun we must go forward to 
the rough places of the law2 at the same
 time begging of these gentlemen for    
once in their life to be serious4  ,not 
long ago1 as we shall remind them1 the  
,hellenes were of the opinion1 which is 
still generally received among the      
barbarians1 that the sight of a naked   
man was ridiculous and improper2 and    
when first the ,cretans and then the    
,lacedaemonians introduced the custom1  
the wits of that day might equally have 
ridiculed the innovation4  ,no doubt4   
,but when experience showed that to let 
all things be uncovered was far better  
than to cover them up1 and the ludicrous

 effect to the outward eye vanished     
before the better principle which reason
 asserted1 then the man was perceived to
 be a fool who directs the shafts of his
 ridicule at any other sight but that of
 folly and vice1 or seriously inclines  
to weigh the beautiful by any other     
standard but that of the good4  ,very   
true1 he replied4  ,first1 then1 whether
 the question is to be put in jest or in
 earnest1 let us come to an             
understanding about the nature of woman3
  ,is she capable of sharing either     
wholly or partially in the actions of   
men1 or not at all8  ,and is the art of 
war one of those arts in which she can  
or can not share8  ,that will be the    
best way of commencing the enquiry1 and 
will probably lead to the fairest       
conclusion4  ,that will be much the best
 way4  ,shall we take the other side    
first and begin by arguing against      
ourselves2 in this manner the           
adversary's position will not be        
undefended4  ,why not8 he said4  ,then  

let us put a speech into the mouths of  
our opponents4  ,they will say3         
',socrates and ,glaucon1 no adversary   
need convict you1 for you yourselves1 at
 the first foundation of the ,state1    
admitted the principle that everybody   
was to do the one work suited to his own
 nature4' ,and certainly1 if ,i am not  
mistaken1 such an admission was made by 
us4  ',and do not the natures of men and
 women differ very much indeed8' ,and we
 shall reply3  ,of course they do4      
,then we shall be asked1 ',whether the  
tasks assigned to men and to women      
should not be different1 and such as are
 agreeable to their different natures8' 
,certainly they should4  ',but if so1   
have you not fallen into a serious      
inconsistency in saying that men and    
women1 whose natures are so entirely    
different1 ought to perform the same    
actions8'-- ,what defence will you make 
for us1 my good ,sir1 against any one   
who offers these objections8  ,that is  
not an easy question to answer when     

asked suddenly2 and ,i shall and ,i do  
beg of you to draw out the case on our  
side4  ,these are the objections1       
,glaucon1 and there are many others of a
 like kind1 which ,i foresaw long ago2  
they made me afraid and reluctant to    
take in hand any law about the          
possession and nurture of women and     
children4  ,by ,zeus1 he said1 the      
problem to be solved is anything but    
easy4  ,why yes1 ,i said1 but the fact  
is that when a man is out of his depth1 
whether he has fallen into a little     
swimming bath or into mid-ocean1 he has 
to swim all the same4  ,very true4  ,and
 must not we swim and try to reach the  
shore3  we will hope that ,arion's      
dolphin or some other miraculous help   
may save us8  ,i suppose so1 he said4   
,well then1 let us see if any way of    
escape can be found4  ,we               
acknowledged--did we not8 that different
 natures ought to have different        
pursuits1 and that men's and women's    
natures are different4 ,and now what are

 we saying8--that different natures     
ought to have the same pursuits1--this  
is the inconsistency which is charged   
upon us4  ,precisely4  ,verily1         
,glaucon1 ,i said1 glorious is the power
 of the art of contradiction6  ,why do  
you say so8  ,because ,i think that many
 a man falls into the practice against  
his will4  ,when he thinks that he is   
reasoning he is really disputing1 just  
because he cannot define and divide1 and
 so know that of which he is speaking2  
and he will pursue a merely verbal      
opposition in the spirit of contention  
and not of fair discussion4  ,yes1 he   
replied1 such is very often the case2   
but what has that to do with us and our 
argument8  ,a great deal2 for there is  
certainly a danger of our getting       
unintentionally into a verbal           
opposition4  ,in what way8  ,why1 we    
valiantly and pugnaciously insist upon  
the verbal truth1 that different natures
 ought to have different pursuits1 but  
we never considered at all what was the 

meaning of sameness or difference of    
nature1 or why we distinguished them    
when we assigned different pursuits to  
different natures and the same to the   
same natures4  ,why1 no1 he said1 that  
was never considered by us4  ,i said3   
,suppose that by way of illustration we 
were to ask the question whether there  
is not an opposition in nature between  
bald men and hairy men2 and if this is  
admitted by us1 then1 if bald men are   
cobblers1 we should forbid the hairy men
 to be cobblers1 and conversely8  ,that 
would be a jest1 he said4  ,yes1 ,i     
said1 a jest2 and why8 because we never 
meant when we constructed the ,state1   
that the opposition of natures should   
extend to every difference1 but only to 
those differences which affected the    
pursuit in which the individual is      
engaged2 we should have argued1 for     
example1 that a physician and one who is
 in mind a physician may be said to have
 the same nature4  ,true4  ,whereas the 
physician and the carpenter have        

different natures8  ,certainly4  ,and   
if1 ,i said1 the male and female sex    
appear to differ in their fitness for   
any art or pursuit1 we should say that  
such pursuit or art ought to be assigned
 to one or the other of them2 but if the
 difference consists only in women      
bearing and men begetting children1 this
 does not amount to a proof that a woman
 differs from a man in respect of the   
sort of education she should receive2   
and we shall therefore continue to      
maintain that our guardians and their   
wives ought to have the same pursuits4  
,very true1 he said4  ,next1 we shall   
ask our opponent how1 in reference to   
any of the pursuits or arts of civic    
life1 the nature of a woman differs from
 that of a man8  ,that will be quite    
fair4  ,and perhaps he1 like yourself1  
will reply that to give a sufficient    
answer on the instant is not easy2 but  
after a little reflection there is no   
difficulty4  ,yes1 perhaps4  ,suppose   
then that we invite him to accompany us 

in the argument1 and then we may hope to
 show him that there is nothing peculiar
 in the constitution of women which     
would affect them in the administration 
of the ,state4  ,by all means4  ,let us 
say to him3  ,come now1 and we will ask 
you a question3--when you spoke of a    
nature gifted or not gifted in any      
respect1 did you mean to say that one   
man will acquire a thing easily1 another
 with difficulty2 a little learning will
 lead the one to discover a great deal2 
whereas the other1 after much study and 
application1 no sooner learns than he   
forgets2 or again1 did you mean1 that   
the one has a body which is a good      
servant to his mind1 while the body of  
the other is a hindrance to him8-would  
not these be the sort of differences    
which distinguish the man gifted by     
nature from the one who is ungifted8    
,no one will deny that4  ,and can you   
mention any pursuit of mankind in which 
the male sex has not all these gifts and
 qualities in a higher degree than the  

female8 ,need ,i waste time in speaking 
of the art of weaving1 and the          
management of pancakes and preserves1 in
 which womankind does really appear to  
be great1 and in which for her to be    
beaten by a man is of all things the    
most absurd8  ,you are quite right1 he  
replied1 in maintaining the general     
inferiority of the female sex3  although
 many women are in many things superior 
to many men1 yet on the whole what you  
say is true4  ,and if so1 my friend1 ,i 
said1 there is no special faculty of    
administration in a state which a woman 
has because she is a woman1 or which a  
man has by virtue of his sex1 but the   
gifts of nature are alike diffused in   
both2 all the pursuits of men are the   
pursuits of women also1 but in all of   
them a woman is inferior to a man4      
,very true4  ,then are we to impose all 
our enactments on men and none of them  
on women8  ,that will never do4  ,one   
woman has a gift of healing1 another    
not2 one is a musician1 and another has 

no music in her nature8  ,very true4    
,and one woman has a turn for gymnastic 
and military exercises1 and another is  
unwarlike and hates gymnastics8         
,certainly4  ,and one woman is a        
philosopher1 and another is an enemy of 
philosophy2 one has spirit1 and another 
is without spirit8  ,that is also true4 
,then one woman will have the temper of 
a guardian1 and another not4 ,was not   
the selection of the male guardians     
determined by differences of this sort8 
,yes4  ,men and women alike possess the 
qualities which make a guardian2 they   
differ only in their comparative        
strength or weakness4  ,obviously4  ,and
 those women who have such qualities are
 to be selected as the companions and   
colleagues of men who have similar      
qualities and whom they resemble in     
capacity and in character8  ,very true4 
,and ought not the same natures to have 
the same pursuits8  ,they ought4  ,then1
 as we were saying before1 there is     
nothing unnatural in assigning music and

 gymnastic to the wives of the          
guardians--to that point we come round  
again4  ,certainly not4  ,the law which 
we then enacted was agreeable to nature1
 and therefore not an impossibility or  
mere aspiration2 and the contrary       
practice1 which prevails at present1 is 
in reality a violation of nature4  ,that
 appears to be true4  ,we had to        
consider1 first1 whether our proposals  
were possible1 and secondly whether they
 were the most beneficial8  ,yes4  ,and 
the possibility has been acknowledged8  
,yes4  ,the very great benefit has next 
to be established8  ,quite so4  ,you    
will admit that the same education which
 makes a man a good guardian will make a
 woman a good guardian2 for their       
original nature is the same8  ,yes4  ,i 
should like to ask you a question4      
,what is it8  ,would you say that all   
men are equal in excellence1 or is one  
man better than another8  ,the latter4  
,and in the commonwealth which we were  
founding do you conceive the guardians  

who have been brought up on our model   
system to be more perfect men1 or the   
cobblers whose education has been       
cobbling8  ,what a ridiculous question6 
,you have answered me1 ,i replied3      
,well1 and may we not further say that  
our guardians are the best of our       
citizens8  ,by far the best4  ,and will 
not their wives be the best women8      
,yes1 by far the best4  ,and can there  
be anything better for the interests of 
the ,state than that the men and women  
of a ,state should be as good as        
possible8  ,there can be nothing better4
  ,and this is what the arts of music   
and gymnastic1 when present in such     
manner as we have described1 will       
accomplish8  ,certainly4  ,then we have 
made an enactment not only possible but 
in the highest degree beneficial to the 
,state8  ,true4  ,then let the wives of 
our guardians strip1 for their virtue   
will be their robe1 and let them share  
in the toils of war and the defence of  
their country2 only in the distribution 

of labours the lighter are to be        
assigned to the women1 who are the      
weaker natures1 but in other respects   
their duties are to be the same4  ,and  
as for the man who laughs at naked women
 exercising their bodies from the best  
of motives1 in his laughter he is       
plucking      ,a fruit of unripe wisdom1
  and he himself is ignorant of what he 
is laughing at1 or what he is           
about2--for that is1 and ever will be1  
the best of sayings1 ,that the useful is
 the noble and the hurtful is the base4 
,very true4  ,here1 then1 is one        
difficulty in our law about women1 which
 we may say that we have now escaped2   
the wave has not swallowed us up alive  
for enacting that the guardians of      
either sex should have all their        
pursuits in common2 to the utility and  
also to the possibility of this         
arrangement the consistency of the      
argument with itself bears witness4     
,yes1 that was a mighty wave which you  
have escaped4  ,yes1 ,i said1 but a     

greater is coming2 you will of this when
 you see the next4  ,go on2 let me see4 
,the law1 ,i said1 which is the sequel  
of this and of all that has preceded1 is
 to the following effect1--'that the    
wives of our guardians are to be common1
 and their children are to be common1   
and no parent is to know his own child1 
nor any child his parent4'  ,yes1 he    
said1 that is a much greater wave than  
the other2 and the possibility as well  
as the utility of such a law are far    
more questionable4  ,i do not think1 ,i 
said1 that there can be any dispute     
about the very great utility of having  
wives and children in common2 the       
possibility is quite another matter1 and
 will be very much disputed4  ,i think  
that a good many doubts may be raised   
about both4  ,you imply that the two    
questions must be combined1 ,i replied4 
,now ,i meant that you should admit the 
utility2 and in this way1 as ,i thought2
 ,i should escape from one of them1 and 
then there would remain only the        

possibility4  ,but that little attempt  
is detected1 and therefore you will     
please to give a defence of both4       
,well1 ,i said1 ,i submit to my fate4   
,yet grant me a little favour3 let me   
feast my mind with the dream as day     
dreamers are in the habit of feasting   
themselves when they are walking alone2 
for before they have discovered any     
means of effecting their wishes--that is
 a matter which never troubles          
them--they would rather not tire        
themselves by thinking about            
possibilities2 but assuming that what   
they desire is already granted to them1 
they proceed with their plan1 and       
delight in detailing what they mean to  
do when their wish has come true--that  
is a way which they have of not doing   
much good to a capacity which was never 
good for much4  ,now ,i myself am       
beginning to lose heart1 and ,i should  
like1 with your permission1 to pass over
 the question of possibility at present4
 ,assuming therefore the possibility of 

the proposal1 ,i shall now proceed to   
enquire how the rulers will carry out   
these arrangements1 and ,i shall        
demonstrate that our plan1 if executed1 
will be of the greatest benefit to the  
,state and to the guardians4  ,first of 
all1 then1 if you have no objection1 ,i 
will endeavour with your help to        
consider the advantages of the measure2 
and hereafter the question of           
possibility4  ,i have no objection2     
proceed4  ,first1 ,i think that if our  
rulers and their auxiliaries are to be  
worthy of the name which they bear1     
there must be willingness to obey in the
 one and the power of command in the    
other2 the guardians must themselves    
obey the laws1 and they must also       
imitate the spirit of them in any       
details which are entrusted to their    
care4  ,that is right1 he said4  ,you1  
,i said1 who are their legislator1      
having selected the men1 will now select
 the women and give them to them2--they 
must be as far as possible of like      

natures with them2 and they must live in
 common houses and meet at common meals1
 ,none of them will have anything       
specially his or her own2 they will be  
together1 and will be brought up        
together1 and will associate at         
gymnastic exercises4  ,and so they will 
be drawn by a necessity of their natures
 to have intercourse with each          
other--necessity is not too strong a    
word1 ,i think8  ,yes1 he               
said2--necessity1 not geometrical1 but  
another sort of necessity which lovers  
know1 and which is far more convincing  
and constraining to the mass of mankind4
  ,true1 ,i said2 and this1 ,glaucon1   
like all the rest1 must proceed after an
 orderly fashion2 in a city of the      
blessed1 licentiousness is an unholy    
thing which the rulers will forbid4     
,yes1 he said1 and it ought not to be   
permitted4  ,then clearly the next thing
 will be to make matrimony sacred in the
 highest degree1 and what is most       
beneficial will be deemed sacred8       

,exactly4  ,and how can marriages be    
made most beneficial8--that is a        
question which ,i put to you1 because ,i
 see in your house dogs for hunting1 and
 of the nobler sort of birds not a few4 
,now1 ,i beseech you1 do tell me1 have  
you ever attended to their pairing and  
breeding8  ,in what particulars8  ,why1 
in the first place1 although they are   
all of a good sort1 are not some better 
than others8  ,true4  ,and do you breed 
from them all indifferently1 or do you  
take care to breed from the best only8  
,from the best4  ,and do you take the   
oldest or the youngest1 or only those of
 ripe age8  ,i choose only those of ripe
 age4  ,and if care was not taken in the
 breeding1 your dogs and birds would    
greatly deteriorate8  ,certainly4  ,and 
the same of horses and animals in       
general8  ,undoubtedly4  ,good heavens6 
my dear friend1 ,i said1 what consummate
 skill will our rulers need if the same 
principle holds of the human species6   
,certainly1 the same principle holds2   

but why does this involve any particular
 skill8  ,because1 ,i said1 our rulers  
will often have to practise upon the    
body corporate with medicines4  ,now you
 know that when patients do not require 
medicines1 but have only to be put under
 a regimen1 the inferior sort of        
practitioner is deemed to be good       
enough2 but when medicine has to be     
given1 then the doctor should be more of
 a man4  ,that is quite true1 he said2  
but to what are you alluding8  ,i mean1 
,i replied1 that our rulers will find a 
considerable dose of falsehood and      
deceit necessary for the good of their  
subjects3 we were saying that the use of
 all these things regarded as medicines 
might be of advantage4  ,and we were    
very right4  ,and this lawful use of    
them seems likely to be often needed in 
the regulations of marriages and births4
  ,how so8  ,why1 ,i said1 the principle
 has been already laid down that the    
best of either sex should be united with
 the best as often1 and the inferior    

with the inferior1 as seldom as         
possible2 and that they should rear the 
offspring of the one sort of union1 but 
not of the other1 if the flock is to be 
maintained in first-rate condition4     
,now these goings on must be a secret   
which the rulers only know1 or there    
will be a further danger of our herd1 as
 the guardians may be termed1 breaking  
out into rebellion4  ,very true4  ,had  
we not better appoint certain festivals 
at which we will bring together the     
brides and bridegrooms1 and sacrifices  
will be offered and suitable hymeneal   
songs composed by our poets3  the number
 of weddings is a matter which must be  
left to the discretion of the rulers1   
whose aim will be to preserve the       
average of population8  ,there are many 
other things which they will have to    
consider1 such as the effects of wars   
and diseases and any similar agencies1  
in order as far as this is possible to  
prevent the ,state from becoming either 
too large or too small4  ,certainly1 he 

replied4  ,we shall have to invent some 
ingenious kind of lots which the less   
worthy may draw on each occasion of our 
bringing them together1 and then they   
will accuse their own ill-luck and not  
the rulers4  ,to be sure1 he said4  ,and
 ,i think that our braver and better    
youth1 besides their other honours and  
rewards1 might have greater facilities  
of intercourse with women given them2   
their bravery will be a reason1 and such
 fathers ought to have as many sons as  
possible4  ,true4  ,and the proper      
officers1 whether male or female or     
both1 for offices are to be held by     
women as well as by men--  ,yes--  ,the 
proper officers will take the offspring 
of the good parents to the pen or fold1 
and there they will deposit them with   
certain nurses who dwell in a separate  
quarter2 but the offspring of the       
inferior1 or of the better when they    
chance to be deformed1 will be put away 
in some mysterious1 unknown place1 as   
they should be4  ,yes1 he said1 that    

must be done if the breed of the        
guardians is to be kept pure4  ,they    
will provide for their nurture1 and will
 bring the mothers to the fold when they
 are full of milk1 taking the greatest  
possible care that no mother recognizes 
her own child2 and other wet-nurses may 
be engaged if more are required4  ,care 
will also be taken that the process of  
suckling shall not be protracted too    
long2 and the mothers will have no      
getting up at night or other trouble1   
but will hand over all this sort of     
thing to the nurses and attendants4     
,you suppose the wives of our guardians 
to have a fine easy time of it when they
 are having children4  ,why1 said ,i1   
and so they ought4  ,let us1 however1   
proceed with our scheme4  ,we were      
saying that the parents should be in the
 prime of life8  ,very true4  ,and what 
is the prime of life8  ,may it not be   
defined as a period of about twenty     
years in a woman's life1 and thirty in a
 man's8  ,which years do you mean to    

include8  ,a woman1 ,i said1 at twenty  
years of age may begin to bear children 
to the ,state1 and continue to bear them
 until forty2 a man may begin at        
five-and-twenty1 when he has passed the 
point at which the pulse of life beats  
quickest1 and continue to beget children
 until he be fifty-five4  ,certainly1 he
 said1 both in men and women those years
 are the prime of physical as well as of
 intellectual vigour4  ,any one above or
 below the prescribed ages who takes    
part in the public hymeneals shall be   
said to have done an unholy and         
unrighteous thing2 the child of which he
 is the father1 if it steals into life1 
will have been conceived under auspices 
very unlike the sacrifices and prayers1 
which at each hymeneal priestesses and  
priest and the whole city will offer1   
that the new generation may be better   
and more useful than their good and     
useful parents1 whereas his child will  
be the offspring of darkness and strange
 lust4  ,very true1 he replied4  ,and   

the same law will apply to any one of   
those within the prescribed age who     
forms a connection with any woman in the
 prime of life without the sanction of  
the rulers2 for we shall say that he is 
raising up a bastard to the ,state1     
uncertified and unconsecrated4  ,very   
true1 he replied4  ,this applies1       
however1 only to those who are within   
the specified age3 after that we allow  
them to range at will1 except that a man
 may not marry his daughter or his      
daughter's daughter1 or his mother or   
his mother's mother2 and women1 on the  
other hand1 are prohibited from marrying
 their sons or fathers1 or son's son or 
father's father1 and so on in either    
direction4  ,and we grant all this1     
accompanying the permission with strict 
orders to prevent any embryo which may  
come into being from seeing the light2  
and if any force a way to the birth1 the
 parents must understand that the       
offspring of such an union cannot be    
maintained1 and arrange accordingly4    

,that also1 he said1 is a reasonable    
proposition4  ,but how will they know   
who are fathers and daughters1 and so   
on8  ,they will never know4  ,the way   
will be this3--dating from the day of   
the hymeneal1 the bridegroom who was    
then married will call all the male     
children who are born in the seventh and
 tenth month afterwards his sons1 and   
the female children his daughters1 and  
they will call him father1 and he will  
call their children his grandchildren1  
and they will call the elder generation 
grandfathers and grandmothers4  ,all who
 were begotten at the time when their   
fathers and mothers came together will  
be called their brothers and sisters1   
and these1 as ,i was saying1 will be    
forbidden to inter-marry4 ,this1        
however1 is not to be understood as an  
absolute prohibition of the marriage of 
brothers and sisters2 if the lot favours
 them1 and they receive the sanction of 
the ,pythian oracle1 the law will allow 
them4  ,quite right1 he replied4  ,such 

is the scheme1 ,glaucon1 according to   
which the guardians of our ,state are to
 have their wives and families in       
common4  ,and now you would have the    
argument show that this community is    
consistent with the rest of our polity1 
and also that nothing can be            
better--would you not8  ,yes1 certainly4
  ,shall we try to find a common basis  
by asking of ourselves what ought to be 
the chief aim of the legislator in      
making laws and in the organization of a
 ,state1--what is the greatest ,i good1 
and what is the greatest evil1 and then 
consider whether our previous           
description has the stamp of the good or
 of the evil8  ,by all means4  ,can     
there be any greater evil than discord  
and distraction and plurality where     
unity ought to reign8 or any greater    
good than the bond of unity8  ,there    
cannot4  ,and there is unity where there
 is community of pleasures and          
pains--where all the citizens are glad  
or grieved on the same occasions of joy 

and sorrow8  ,no doubt4  ,yes2 and where
 there is no common but only private    
feeling a ,state is disorganized--when  
you have one half of the world          
triumphing and the other plunged in     
grief at the same events happening to   
the city or the citizens8  ,certainly4  
,such differences commonly originate in 
a disagreement about the use of the     
terms 'mine' and 'not mine1' 'his' and  
'not his4'  ,exactly so4  ,and is not   
that the best-ordered ,state in which   
the greatest number of persons apply the
 terms 'mine' and 'not mine' in the same
 way to the same thing8  ,quite true4   
,or that again which most nearly        
approaches to the condition of the      
individual--as in the body1 when but a  
finger of one of us is hurt1 the whole  
frame1 drawn towards the soul as a      
center and forming one kingdom under the
 ruling power therein1 feels the hurt   
and sympathizes all together with the   
part affected1 and we say that the man  
has a pain in his finger2 and the same  

expression is used about any other part 
of the body1 which has a sensation of   
pain at suffering or of pleasure at the 
alleviation of suffering4  ,very true1  
he replied2 and ,i agree with you that  
in the best-ordered ,state there is the 
nearest approach to this common feeling 
which you describe4  ,then when any one 
of the citizens experiences any good or 
evil1 the whole ,state will make his    
case their own1 and will either rejoice 
or sorrow with him8  ,yes1 he said1 that
 is what will happen in a well-ordered  
,state4  ,it will now be time1 ,i said1 
for us to return to our ,state and see  
whether this or some other form is most 
in accordance with these fundamental    
principles4  ,very good4  ,our ,state   
like every other has rulers and         
subjects8  ,true4  ,all of whom will    
call one another citizens8  ,of course4 
,but is there not another name which    
people give to their rulers in other    
,states8  ,generally they call them     
masters1 but in democratic ,states they 

simply call them rulers4  ,and in our   
,state what other name besides that of  
citizens do the people give the rulers8 
,they are called saviours and helpers1  
he replied4  ,and what do the rulers    
call the people8  ,their maintainers and
 foster-fathers4  ,and what do they call
 them in other ,states8  ,slaves4  ,and 
what do the rulers call one another in  
other ,states8  ,fellow-rulers4  ,and   
what in ours8  ,fellow-guardians4  ,did 
you ever know an example in any other   
,state of a ruler who would speak of one
 of his colleagues as his friend and of 
another as not being his friend8  ,yes1 
very often4  ,and the friend he regards 
and describes as one in whom he has an  
interest1 and the other as a stranger in
 whom he has no interest8  ,exactly4    
,but would any of your guardians think  
or speak of any other guardian as a     
stranger8  ,certainly he would not2 for 
every one whom they meet will be        
regarded by them either as a brother or 
sister1 or father or mother1 or son or  

daughter1 or as the child or parent of  
those who are thus connected with him4  
,capital1 ,i said2 but let me ask you   
once more3  ,shall they be a family in  
name only2 or shall they in all their   
actions be true to the name8 ,for       
example1 in the use of the word         
'father1' would the care of a father be 
implied and the filial reverence and    
duty and obedience to him which the law 
commands2 and is the violator of these  
duties to be regarded as an impious and 
unrighteous person who is not likely to 
receive much good either at the hands of
 ,god or of man8  ,are these to be or   
not to be the strains which the children
 will hear repeated in their ears by all
 the citizens about those who are       
intimated to them to be their parents   
and the rest of their kinsfolk8  ,these1
 he said1 and none other2 for what can  
be more ridiculous than for them to     
utter the names of family ties with the 
lips only and not to act in the spirit  
of them8  ,then in our city the language

 of harmony and concord will be more    
often beard than in any other4  ,as ,i  
was describing before1 when any one is  
well or ill1 the universal word will be 
with me 'it is well' or 'it is ill4'    
,most true4  ,and agreeably to this mode
 of thinking and speaking1 were we not  
saying that they will have their        
pleasures and pains in common8  ,yes1   
and so they will4  ,and they will have a
 common interest in the same thing which
 they will alike call 'my own1' and     
having this common interest they will   
have a common feeling of pleasure and   
pain8  ,yes1 far more so than in other  
,states4  ,and the reason of this1 over 
and above the general constitution of   
the ,state1 will be that the guardians  
will have a community of women and      
children8  ,that will be the chief      
reason4  ,and this unity of feeling we  
admitted to be the greatest good1 as was
 implied in our own comparison of a     
well-ordered ,state to the relation of  
the body and the members1 when affected 

by pleasure or pain8  ,that we          
acknowledged1 and very rightly4  ,then  
the community of wives and children     
among our citizens is clearly the source
 of the greatest good to the ,state8    
,certainly4  ,and this agrees with the  
other principle which we were           
affirming1--that the guardians were not 
to have houses or lands or any other    
property2 their pay was to be their     
food1 which they were to receive from   
the other citizens1 and they were to    
have no private expenses2 for we        
intended them to preserve their true    
character of guardians4  ,right1 he     
replied4  ,both the community of        
property and the community of families1 
as ,i am saying1 tend to make them more 
truly guardians2 they will not tear the 
city in pieces by differing about 'mine'
 and 'not mine2' each man dragging any  
acquisition which he has made into a    
separate house of his own1 where he has 
a separate wife and children and private
 pleasures and pains2 but all will be   

affected as far as may be by the same   
pleasures and pains because they are all
 of one opinion about what is near and  
dear to them1 and therefore they all    
tend towards a common end4  ,certainly1 
he replied4  ,and as they have nothing  
but their persons which they can call   
their own1 suits and complaints will    
have no existence among them2 they will 
be delivered from all those quarrels of 
which money or children or relations are
 the occasion4  ,of course they will4   
,neither will trials for assault or     
insult ever be likely to occur among    
them4  ,for that equals should defend   
themselves against equals we shall      
maintain to be honourable and right2 we 
shall make the protection of the person 
a matter of necessity4  ,that is good1  
he said4  ,yes2 and there is a further  
good in the law2 viz4  that if a man has
 a quarrel with another he will satisfy 
his resentment then and there1 and not  
proceed to more dangerous lengths4      
,certainly4  ,to the elder shall be     

assigned the duty of ruling and         
chastising the younger4  ,clearly4  ,nor
 can there be a doubt that the younger  
will not strike or do any other violence
 to an elder1 unless the magistrates    
command him2 nor will he slight him in  
any way4  ,for there are two guardians1 
shame and fear1 mighty to prevent him3  
shame1 which makes men refrain from     
laying hands on those who are to them in
 the relation of parents2 fear1 that the
 injured one will be succoured by the   
others who are his brothers1 sons1 one  
wi fathers4  ,that is true1 he replied4 
,then in every way the laws will help   
the citizens to keep the peace with one 
another8  ,yes1 there will be no want of
 peace4  ,and as the guardians will     
never quarrel among themselves there    
will be no danger of the rest of the    
city being divided either against them  
or against one another4  ,none whatever4
  ,i hardly like even to mention the    
little meannesses of which they will be 
rid1 for they are beneath notice3  such1

 for example1 as the flattery of the    
rich by the poor1 and all the pains and 
pangs which men experience in bringing  
up a family1 and in finding money to buy
 necessaries for their household1       
borrowing and then repudiating1 getting 
how they can1 and giving the money into 
the hands of women and slaves to        
keep--the many evils of so many kinds   
which people suffer in this way are mean
 enough and obvious enough1 and not     
worth speaking of4  ,yes1 he said1 a man
 has no need of eyes in order to        
perceive that4  ,and from all these     
evils they will be delivered1 and their 
life will be blessed as the life of     
,olympic victors and yet more blessed4  
,how so8  ,the ,olympic victor1 ,i said1
 is deemed happy in receiving a part    
only of the blessedness which is secured
 to our citizens1 who have won a more   
glorious victory and have a more        
complete maintenance at the public cost4
  ,for the victory which they have won  
is the salvation of the whole ,state2   

and the crown with which they and their 
children are crowned is the fulness of  
all that life needs2 they receive       
rewards from the hands of their country 
while living1 and after death have an   
honourable burial4  ,yes1 he said1 and  
glorious rewards they are4  ,do you     
remember1 ,i said1 how in the course of 
the previous discussion some one who    
shall be nameless accused us of making  
our guardians unhappy--they had nothing 
and might have possessed all things-to  
whom we replied that1 if an occasion    
offered1 we might perhaps hereafter     
consider this question1 but that1 as at 
present advised1 we would make our      
guardians truly guardians1 and that we  
were fashioning the ,state with a view  
to the greatest happiness1 not of any   
particular class1 but of the whole8     
,yes1 ,i remember4  ,and what do you    
say1 now that the life of our protectors
 is made out to be far better and nobler
 than that of ,olympic victors--is the  
life of shoemakers1 or any other        

artisans1 or of husbandmen1 to be       
compared with it8  ,certainly not4  ,at 
the same time ,i ought here to repeat   
what ,i have said elsewhere1 that if any
 of our guardians shall try to be happy 
in such a manner that he will cease to  
be a guardian1 and is not content with  
this safe and harmonious life1 which1 in
 our judgment1 is of all lives the best1
 but infatuated by some youthful conceit
 of happiness which gets up into his    
head shall seek to appropriate the whole
 ,state to himself1 then he will have to
 learn how wisely ,hesiod spoke1 when he
 said1 'half is more than the whole4'   
,if he were to consult me1 ,i should say
 to him3  ,stay where you are1 when you 
have the offer of such a life4  ,you    
agree then1 ,i said1 that men and women 
are to have a common way of life such as
 we have described--common education1   
common children2 and they are to watch  
over the citizens in common whether     
abiding in the city or going out to war2
 they are to keep watch together1 and to

 hunt together like dogs2 and always and
 in all things1 as far as they are able1
 women are to share with the men8  ,and 
in so doing they will do what is best1  
and will not violate1 but preserve the  
natural relation of the sexes4  ,i agree
 with you1 he replied4  ,the enquiry1 ,i
 said1 has yet to be made1 whether such 
a community be found possible--as among 
other animals1 so also among men--and if
 possible1 in what way possible8  ,you  
have anticipated the question which ,i  
was about to suggest4  ,there is no     
difficulty1 ,i said1 in seeing how war  
will be carried on by them4  ,how8      
,why1 of course they will go on         
expeditions together2 and will take with
 them any of their children who are     
strong enough1 that1 after the manner of
 the artisan's child1 they may look on  
at the work which they will have to do  
when they are grown up2 and besides     
looking on they will have to help and be
 of use in war1 and to wait upon their  
fathers and mothers4  ,did you never    

observe in the arts how the potters'    
boys look on and help1 long before they 
touch the wheel8  ,yes1 ,i have4  ,and  
shall potters be more careful in        
educating their children and in giving  
them the opportunity of seeing and      
practising their duties than our        
guardians will be8  ,the idea is        
ridiculous1 he said4  ,there is also the
 effect on the parents1 with whom1 as   
with other animals1 the presence of     
their young ones will be the greatest   
incentive to valour4  ,that is quite    
true1 ,socrates2 and yet if they are    
defeated1 which may often happen in war1
 how great the danger is6 the children  
will be lost as well as their parents1  
and the ,state will never recover4      
,true1 ,i said2 but would you never     
allow them to run any risk8  ,i am far  
from saying that4  ,well1 but if they   
are ever to run a risk should they not  
do so on some occasion when1 if they    
escape disaster1 they will be the better
 for it8  ,clearly4  ,whether the future

 soldiers do or do not see war in the   
days of their youth is a very important 
matter1 for the sake of which some risk 
may fairly be incurred4  ,yes1 very     
important4  ,this then must be our first
 step1--to make our children spectators 
of war2 but we must also contrive that  
they shall be secured against danger2   
then all will be well4  ,true4  ,their  
parents may be supposed not to be blind 
to the risks of war1 but to know1 as far
 as human foresight can1 what           
expeditions are safe and what dangerous8
  ,that may be assumed4  ,and they will 
take them on the safe expeditions and be
 cautious about the dangerous ones8     
,true4  ,and they will place them under 
the command of experienced veterans who 
will be their leaders and teachers8     
,very properly4  ,still1 the dangers of 
war cannot be always foreseen2 there is 
a good deal of chance about them8       
,true4  ,then against such chances the  
children must be at once furnished with 
wings1 in order that in the hour of need

 they may fly away and escape4  ,what do
 you mean8 he said4  ,i mean that we    
must mount them on horses in their      
earliest youth1 and when they have      
learnt to ride1 take them on horseback  
to see war3 the horses must be spirited 
and warlike1 but the most tractable and 
yet the swiftest that can be had4  ,in  
this way they will get an excellent view
 of what is hereafter to be their own   
business2 and if there is danger they   
have only to follow their elder leaders 
and escape4  ,i believe that you are    
right1 he said4  ,next1 as to war2 what 
are to be the relations of your soldiers
 to one another and to their enemies8   
,i should be inclined to propose that   
the soldier who leaves his rank or      
throws away his arms1 or is guilty of   
any other act of cowardice1 should be   
degraded into the rank of a husbandman  
or artisan4  ,what do you think8  ,by   
all means1 ,i should say4  ,and he who  
allows himself to be taken prisoner may 
as well be made a present of to his     

enemies2 he is their lawful prey1 and   
let them do what they like with him4    
,certainly4  ,but the hero who has      
distinguished himself1 what shall be    
done to him8 ,in the first place1 he    
shall receive honour in the army from   
his youthful comrades2 every one of them
 in succession shall crown him4 ,what do
 you say8  ,i approve4  ,and what do you
 say to his receiving the right hand of 
fellowship8  ,to that too1 ,i agree4    
,but you will hardly agree to my next   
proposal4  ,what is your proposal8      
,that he should kiss and be kissed by   
them4  ,most certainly1 and ,i should be
 disposed to go further1 and say3 ,let  
no one whom he has a mind to kiss refuse
 to be kissed by him while the          
expedition lasts4  ,so that if there be 
a lover in the army1 whether his love be
 youth or maiden1 he may be more eager  
to win the prize of valour4  ,capital1  
,i said4  ,that the brave man is to have
 more wives than others has been already
 determined3  and he is to have first   

choices in such matters more than       
others1 in order that he may have as    
many children as possible8  ,agreed4    
,again1 there is another manner in      
which1 according to ,homer1 brave youths
 should be honoured2 for he tells how   
,ajax1 after he had distinguished       
himself in battle1 was rewarded with    
long chines1 which seems to be a        
compliment appropriate to a hero in the 
flower of his age1 being not only a     
tribute of honour but also a very       
strengthening thing4  ,most true1 he    
said4  ,then in this1 ,i said1 ,homer   
shall be our teacher2 and we too1 at    
sacrifices and on the like occasions1   
will honour the brave according to the  
measure of their valour1 whether men or 
women1 with hymns and those other       
distinctions which we were mentioning2  
also with      seats of precedence1 and 
meats and full cups2  and in honouring  
them1 we shall be at the same time      
training them4  ,that1 he replied1 is   
excellent4  ,yes1 ,i said2 and when a   

man dies gloriously in war shall we not 
say1 in the first place1 that he is of  
the golden race8  ,to be sure4  ,nay1   
have we not the authority of ,hesiod for
 affirming that when they are dead      
,they are holy angels upon the earth1   
authors of good1     averters of evil1  
the guardians of speech-gifted men8     
,yes2 and we accept his authority4  ,we 
must learn of the god how we are to     
order the sepulture of divine and heroic
 personages1 and what is to be their    
special distinction and we must do as he
 bids8  ,by all means4  ,and in ages to 
come we will reverence them and kneel   
before their sepulchres as at the graves
 of heroes4  ,and not only they but any 
who are deemed pre-eminently good1      
whether they die from age1 or in any    
other way1 shall be admitted to the same
 honours4  ,that is very right1 he said4
  ,next1 how shall our soldiers treat   
their enemies8  ,what about this8  ,in  
what respect do you mean8  ,first of    
all1 in regard to slavery8  ,do you     

think it right that ,hellenes should    
enslave ,hellenic ,states1 or allow     
others to enslave them1 if they can     
help8  ,should not their custom be to   
spare them1 considering the danger which
 there is that the whole race may one   
day fall under the yoke of the          
barbarians8  ,to spare them is          
infinitely better4  ,then no ,hellene   
should be owned by them as a slave2 that
 is a rule which they will observe and  
advise the other ,hellenes to observe4  
,certainly1 he said2 they will in this  
way be united against the barbarians and
 will keep their hands off one another4 
,next as to the slain2 ought the        
conquerors1 ,i said1 to take anything   
but their armour8  ,does not the        
practice of despoiling an enemy afford  
an excuse for not facing the battle8    
,cowards skulk about the dead1          
pretending that they are fulfilling a   
duty1 and many an army before now has   
been lost from this love of plunder4    
,very true4  ,and is there not          

illiberality and avarice in robbing a   
corpse1 and also a degree of meanness   
and womanishness in making an enemy of  
the dead body when the real enemy has   
flown away and left only his fighting   
gear behind him1--is not this rather    
like a dog who cannot get at his        
assailant1 quarrelling with the stones  
which strike him instead8  ,very like a 
dog1 he said4  ,then we must abstain    
from spoiling the dead or hindering     
their burial8  ,yes1 he replied1 we most
 certainly must4  ,neither shall we     
offer up arms at the temples of the     
gods1 least of all the arms of          
,hellenes1 if we care to maintain good  
feeling with other ,hellenes2 and1      
indeed1 we have reason to fear that the 
offering of spoils taken from kinsmen   
may be a pollution unless commanded by  
the god himself8  ,very true4  ,again1  
as to the devastation of ,hellenic      
territory or the burning of houses1 what
 is to be the practice8  ,may ,i have   
the pleasure1 he said1 of hearing your  

opinion8  ,both should be forbidden1 in 
my judgment2 ,i would take the annual   
produce and no more4  ,shall ,i tell you
 why8  ,pray do4  ,why1 you see1 there  
is a difference in the names 'discord'  
and 'war1' and ,i imagine that there is 
also a difference in their natures2 the 
one is expressive of what is internal   
and domestic1 the other of what is      
external and foreign2 and the first of  
the two is termed discord1 and only the 
second1 war4  ,that is a very proper    
distinction1 he replied4  ,and may ,i   
not observe with equal propriety that   
the ,hellenic race is all united        
together by ties of blood and           
friendship1 and alien and strange to the
 barbarians8  ,very good1 he said4  ,and
 therefore when ,hellenes fight with    
barbarians and barbarians with          
,hellenes1 they will be described by us 
as being at war when they fight1 and by 
nature enemies1 and this kind of        
antagonism should be called war2 but    
when ,hellenes fight with one another we

 shall say that ,hellas is then in a    
state of disorder and discord1 they     
being by nature friends and such enmity 
is to be called discord4  ,i agree4     
,consider then1 ,i said1 when that which
 we have acknowledged to be discord     
occurs1 and a city is divided1 if both  
parties destroy the lands and burn the  
houses of one another1 how wicked does  
the strife appear6  ,no true lover of   
his country would bring himself to tear 
in pieces his own nurse and mother3     
,there might be reason in the conqueror 
depriving the conquered of their        
harvest1 but still they would have the  
idea of peace in their hearts and would 
not mean to go on fighting for ever4    
,yes1 he said1 that is a better temper  
than the other4  ,and will not the city1
 which you are founding1 be an ,hellenic
 city8  ,it ought to be1 he replied4    
,then will not the citizens be good and 
civilized8  ,yes1 very civilized4  ,and 
will they not be lovers of ,hellas1 and 
think of ,hellas as their own land1 and 

share in the common temples8  ,most     
certainly4  ,and any difference which   
arises among them will be regarded by   
them as discord only--a quarrel among   
friends1 which is not to be called a    
war8  ,certainly not4  ,then they will  
quarrel as those who intend some day to 
be reconciled8 ,certainly4  ,they will  
use friendly correction1 but will not   
enslave or destroy their opponents2 they
 will be correctors1 not enemies8  ,just
 so4  ,and as they are ,hellenes        
themselves they will not devastate      
,hellas1 nor will they burn houses1 not 
even suppose that the whole population  
of a city--men1 women1 and children--are
 equally their enemies1 for they know   
that the guilt of war is always confined
 to a few persons and that the many are 
their friends4  ,and for all these      
reasons they will be unwilling to waste 
their lands and raze their houses2 their
 enmity to them will only last until the
 many innocent sufferers have compelled 
the guilty few to give satisfaction8  ,i

 agree1 he said1 that our citizens      
should thus deal with their ,hellenic   
enemies2 and with barbarians as the     
,hellenes now deal with one another4    
,then let us enact this law also for our
 guardians3-that they are neither to    
devastate the lands of ,hellenes nor to 
burn their houses4  ,agreed2 and we may 
agree also in thinking that these1 all  
our previous enactments1 are very good4 
,but still ,i must say1 ,socrates1 that 
if you are allowed to go on in this way 
you will entirely forget the other      
question which at the commencement of   
this discussion you thrust aside3--,is  
such an order of things possible1 and   
how1 if at all8  ,for ,i am quite ready 
to acknowledge that the plan which you  
propose1 if only feasible1 would do all 
sorts of good to the ,state4  ,i will   
add1 what you have omitted1 that your   
citizens will be the bravest of         
warriors1 and will never leave their    
ranks1 for they will all know one       
another1 and each will call the other   

father1 brother1 son2 and if you suppose
 the women to join their armies1 whether
 in the same rank or in the rear1 either
 as a terror to the enemy1 or as        
auxiliaries in case of need1 ,i know    
that they will then be absolutely       
invincible2 and there are many domestic 
tic advantages which might also be      
mentioned and which ,i also fully       
acknowledge3 but1 as ,i admit all these 
advantages and as many more as you      
please1 if only this ,state of yours    
were to come into existence1 we need say
 no more about them2 assuming then the  
existence of the ,state1 let us now turn
 to the question of possibility and ways
 and means--the rest may be left4  ,if  
,i loiter for a moment1 you instantly   
make a raid upon me1 ,i said1 and have  
no mercy2 ,i have hardly escaped the    
first and second waves1 and you seem not
 to be aware that you are now bringing  
upon me the third1 which is the greatest
 and heaviest4  ,when you have seen and 
heard the third wave1 ,i think you be   

more considerate and will acknowledge   
that some fear and hesitation was       
natural respecting a proposal so        
extraordinary as that which ,i have now 
to state and investigate4  ,the more    
appeals of this sort which you make1 he 
said1 the more determined are we that   
you shall tell us how such a ,state is  
possible3 speak out and at once4  ,let  
me begin by reminding you that we found 
our way hither in the search after      
justice and injustice4  ,true1 he       
replied2 but what of that8  ,i was only 
going to ask whether1 if we have        
discovered them1 we are to require that 
the just man should in nothing fail of  
absolute justice2 or may we be satisfied
 with an approximation1 and the         
attainment in him of a higher degree of 
justice than is to be found in other    
men8  ,the approximation will be enough4
  ,we are enquiring into the nature of  
absolute justice and into the character 
of the perfectly just1 and into         
injustice and the perfectly unjust1 that

 we might have an ideal4  ,we were to   
look at these in order that we might    
judge of our own happiness and          
unhappiness according to the standard   
which they exhibited and the degree in  
which we resembled them1 but not with   
any view of showing that they could     
exist in fact4  ,true1 he said4  ,would 
a painter be any the worse because1     
after having delineated with consummate 
art an ideal of a perfectly beautiful   
man1 he was unable to show that any such
 man could ever have existed8  ,he would
 be none the worse4  ,well1 and were we 
not creating an ideal of a perfect      
,state8  ,to be sure4  ,and is our      
theory a worse theory because we are    
unable to prove the possibility of a    
city being ordered in the manner        
described8  ,surely not1 he replied4    
,that is the truth1 ,i said4  ,but if1  
at your request1 ,i am to try and show  
how and under what conditions the       
possibility is highest1 ,i must ask you1
 having this in view1 to repeat your    

former admissions4  ,what admissions8   
,i want to know whether ideals are ever 
fully realised in language8 ,does not   
the word express more than the fact1 and
 must not the actual1 whatever a man may
 think1 always1 in the nature of things1
 fall short of the truth8  ,what do you 
say8  ,i agree4  ,then you must not     
insist on my proving that the actual    
,state will in every respect coincide   
with the ideal3  if we are only able to 
discover how a city may be governed     
nearly as we proposed1 you will admit   
that we have discovered the possibility 
which you demand2 and will be contented4
  ,i am sure that ,i should be          
contented--will not you8  ,yes1 ,i will4
  ,let me next endeavour to show what is
 that fault in ,states which is the     
cause of their present                  
maladministration1 and what is the least
 change which will enable a ,state to   
pass into the truer form2 and let the   
change1 if possible1 be of one thing    
only1 or if not1 of two2 at any rate1   

let the changes be as few and slight as 
possible4  ,certainly1 he replied4  ,i  
think1 ,i said1 that there might be a   
reform of the ,state if only one change 
were made1 which is not a slight or easy
 though still a possible one4  ,what is 
it8 he said4  ,now then1 ,i said1 ,i go 
to meet that which ,i liken to the      
greatest of the waves2 yet shall the    
word be spoken1 even though the wave    
break and drown me in laughter and      
dishonour2 and do you mark my words4    
,proceed4  ,i said3  ,until philosophers
 are kings1 or the kings and princes of 
this world have the spirit and power of 
philosophy1 and political greatness and 
wisdom meet in one1 and those commoner  
natures who pursue either to the        
exclusion of the other are compelled to 
stand aside1 cities will never have rest
 from their evils1--nor the human race1 
as ,i believe1--and then only will this 
our ,state have a possibility of life   
and behold the light of day4  ,such was 
the thought1 my dear ,glaucon1 which ,i 

would fain have uttered if it had not   
seemed too extravagant2 for to be       
convinced that in no other ,state can   
there be happiness private or public is 
indeed a hard thing4  ,socrates1 what do
 you mean8  ,i would have you consider  
that the word which you have uttered is 
one at which numerous persons1 and very 
respectable persons too1 in a figure    
pulling off their coats all in a moment1
 and seizing any weapon that comes to   
hand1 will run at you might and main1   
before you know where you are1 intending
 to do heaven knows what2 and if you    
don't prepare an answer1 and put        
yourself in motion1 you will be prepared
 by their fine wits1' and no mistake4   
,you got me into the scrape1 ,i said4   
,and ,i was quite right2 however1 ,i    
will do all ,i can to get you out of it2
 but ,i can only give you good-will and 
good advice1 and1 perhaps1 ,i may be    
able to fit answers to your questions   
better than another--that is all4  ,and 
now1 having such an auxiliary1 you must 

do your best to show the unbelievers    
that you are right4  ,i ought to try1 ,i
 said1 since you offer me such          
invaluable assistance4 ,and ,i think    
that1 if there is to be a chance of our 
escaping1 we must explain to them whom  
we mean when we say that philosophers   
are to rule in the ,state2 then we shall
 be able to defend ourselves3 ,there    
will be discovered to be some natures   
who ought to study philosophy and to be 
leaders in the ,state2 and others who   
are not born to be philosophers1 and are
 meant to be followers rather than      
leaders4  ,then now for a definition1 he
 said4  ,follow me1 ,i said1 and ,i hope
 that ,i may in some way or other be    
able to give you a satisfactory         
explanation4  ,proceed4  ,i dare say    
that you remember1 and therefore ,i need
 not remind you1 that a lover1 if lie is
 worthy of the name1 ought to show his  
love1 not to some one part of that which
 he loves1 but to the whole4  ,i really 
do not understand1 and therefore beg of 

you to assist my memory4  ,another      
person1 ,i said1 might fairly reply as  
you do2 but a man of pleasure like      
yourself ought to know that all who are 
in the flower of youth do somehow or    
other raise a pang or emotion in a      
lover's breast1 and are thought by him  
to be worthy of his affectionate        
regards4  ,is not this a way which you  
have with the fair3  one has a snub     
nose1 and you praise his charming face2 
the hook-nose of another has1 you say1 a
 royal look2 while he who is neither    
snub nor hooked has the grace of        
regularity3  the dark visage is manly1  
the fair are children of the gods2 and  
as to the sweet 'honey pale1' as they   
are called1 what is the very name but   
the invention of a lover who talks in   
diminutives1 and is not adverse to      
paleness if appearing on the cheek of   
youth8  ,in a word1 there is no excuse  
which you will not make1 and nothing    
which you will not say1 in order not to 
lose a single flower that blooms in the 

spring-time of youth4  ,if you make me  
an authority in matters of love1 for the
 sake of the argument1 ,i assent4  ,and 
what do you say of lovers of wine8  ,do 
you not see them doing the same8  ,they 
are glad of any pretext of drinking any 
wine4  ,very good4  ,and the same is    
true of ambitious men2 if they cannot   
command an army1 they are willing to    
command a file2 and if they cannot be   
honoured by really great and important  
persons1 they are glad to be honoured by
 lesser and meaner people1 but honour of
 some kind they must have4  ,exactly4   
,once more let me ask3  ,does he who    
desires any class of goods1 desire the  
whole class or a part only8  ,the whole4
  ,and may we not say of the philosopher
 that he is a lover1 not of a part of   
wisdom only1 but of the whole8  ,yes1 of
 the whole4  ,and he who dislikes       
learnings1 especially in youth1 when he 
has no power of judging what is good and
 what is not1 such an one we maintain   
not to be a philosopher or a lover of   

knowledge1 just as he who refuses his   
food is not hungry1 and may be said to  
have a bad appetite and not a good one8 
,very true1 he said4  ,whereas he who   
has a taste for every sort of knowledge 
and who is curious to learn and is never
 satisfied1 may be justly termed a      
philosopher8  ,am ,i not right8         
,glaucon said3  ,if curiosity makes a   
philosopher1 you will find many a       
strange being will have a title to the  
name4  ,all the lovers of sights have a 
delight in learning1 and must therefore 
be included4  ,musical amateurs1 too1   
are a folk strangely out of place among 
philosophers1 for they are the last     
persons in the world who would come to  
anything like a philosophical           
discussion1 if they could help1 while   
they run about at the ,dionysiac        
festivals as if they had let out their  
ears to hear every chorus2 whether the  
performance is in town or country--that 
makes no difference--they are there4    
,now are we to maintain that all these  

and any who have similar tastes1 as well
 as the professors of quite minor arts1 
are philosophers8  ,certainly not1 ,i   
replied2 they are only an imitation4    
,he said3  ,who then are the true       
philosophers8  ,those1 ,i said1 who are 
lovers of the vision of truth4  ,that is
 also good1 he said2 but ,i should like 
to know what you mean8  ,to another1 ,i 
replied1 ,i might have a difficulty in  
explaining2 but ,i am sure that you will
 admit a proposition which ,i am about  
to make4  ,what is the proposition8     
,that since beauty is the opposite of   
ugliness1 they are two8  ,certainly4    
,and inasmuch as they are two1 each of  
them is one8  ,true again4  ,and of just
 and unjust1 good and evil1 and of every
 other class1 the same remark holds3    
taken singly1 each of them one2 but from
 the various combinations of them with  
actions and things and with one another1
 they are seen in all sorts of lights   
and appear many8  ,very true4  ,and this
 is the distinction which ,i draw       

between the sight-loving1 art-loving1   
practical class and those of whom ,i am 
speaking1 and who are alone worthy of   
the name of philosophers4  ,how do you  
distinguish them8 he said4  ,the lovers 
of sounds and sights1 ,i replied1 are1  
as ,i conceive1 fond of fine tones and  
colours and forms and all the artificial
 products that are made out of them1 but
 their mind is incapable of seeing or   
loving absolute beauty4  ,true1 he      
replied4  ,few are they who are able to 
attain to the sight of this4  ,very     
true4  ,and he who1 having a sense of   
beautiful things has no sense of        
absolute beauty1 or who1 if another lead
 him to a knowledge of that beauty is   
unable to follow--of such an one ,i ask1
 ,is he awake or in a dream only8       
,reflect3  is not the dreamer1 sleeping 
or waking1 one who likens dissimilar    
things1 who puts the copy in the place  
of the real object8  ,i should certainly
 say that such an one was dreaming4     
,but take the case of the other1 who    

recognises the existence of absolute    
beauty and is able to distinguish the   
idea from the objects which participate 
in the idea1 neither putting the objects
 in the place of the idea nor the idea  
in the place of the objects--is he a    
dreamer1 or is he awake8  ,he is wide   
awake4  ,and may we not say that the    
mind of the one who knows has knowledge1
 and that the mind of the other1 who    
opines only1 has opinion  ,certainly4   
,but suppose that the latter should     
quarrel with us and dispute our         
statement1 can we administer any        
soothing cordial or advice to him1      
without revealing to him that there is  
sad disorder in his wits8  ,we must     
certainly offer him some good advice1 he
 replied4  ,come1 then1 and let us think
 of something to say to him4  ,shall we 
begin by assuring him that he is welcome
 to any knowledge which he may have1 and
 that we are rejoiced at his having it8 
,but we should like to ask him a        
question3  ,does he who has knowledge   

know something or nothing8  7,you must  
answer for him47  ,i answer that he     
knows something4  ,something that is or 
is not8  ,something that is2 for how can
 that which is not ever be known8  ,and 
are we assured1 after looking at the    
matter from many points of view1 that   
absolute being is or may be absolutely  
known1 but that the utterly non-existent
 is utterly unknown8  ,nothing can be   
more certain4  ,good4  ,but if there be 
anything which is of such a nature as to
 be and not to be1 that will have a     
place intermediate between pure being   
and the absolute negation of being8     
,yes1 between them4  ,and1 as knowledge 
corresponded to being and ignorance of  
necessity to not-being1 for that        
intermediate between being and not-being
 there has to be discovered a           
corresponding intermediate between      
ignorance and knowledge1 if there be    
such8  ,certainly4  ,do we admit the    
existence of opinion8  ,undoubtedly4    
,as being the same with knowledge1 or   

another faculty8  ,another faculty4     
,then opinion and knowledge have to do  
with different kinds of matter          
corresponding to this difference of     
faculties8  ,yes4  ,and knowledge is    
relative to being and knows being4  ,but
 before ,i proceed further ,i will make 
a division4  ,what division8  ,i will   
begin by placing faculties in a class by
 themselves3 they are powers in us1 and 
in all other things1 by which we do as  
we do4  ,sight and hearing1 for example1
 ,i should call faculties4  ,have ,i    
clearly explained the class which ,i    
mean8  ,yes1 ,i quite understand4  ,then
 let me tell you my view about them4  ,i
 do not see them1 and therefore the     
distinctions of fire1 colour1 and the   
like1 which enable me to discern the    
differences of some things1 do not apply
 to them4  ,in speaking of a faculty ,i 
think only of its sphere and its result2
 and that which has the same sphere and 
the same result ,i call the same        
faculty1 but that which has another     

sphere and another result ,i call       
different4  ,would that be your way of  
speaking8  ,yes4  ,and will you be so   
very good as to answer one more         
question8  ,would you say that knowledge
 is a faculty1 or in what class would   
you place it8  ,certainly knowledge is a
 faculty1 and the mightiest of all      
faculties4  ,and is opinion also a      
faculty8  ,certainly1 he said2 for      
opinion is that with which we are able  
to form an opinion4  ,and yet you were  
acknowledging a little while ago that   
knowledge is not the same as opinion8   
,why1 yes1 he said3  how can any        
reasonable being ever identify that     
which is infallible with that which     
errs8  ,an excellent answer1 proving1 ,i
 said1 that we are quite conscious of a 
distinction between them4  ,yes4  ,then 
knowledge and opinion having distinct   
powers have also distinct spheres or    
subject-matters8  ,that is certain4     
,being is the sphere or subject-matter  
of knowledge1 and knowledge is to know  

the nature of being8  ,yes4  ,and       
opinion is to have an opinion8  ,yes4   
,and do we know what we opine8 or is the
 subject-matter of opinion the same as  
the subject-matter of knowledge8  ,nay1 
he replied1 that has been already       
disproven2 if difference in faculty     
implies difference in the sphere or     
subject matter1 and if1 as we were      
saying1 opinion and knowledge are       
distinct faculties1 then the sphere of  
knowledge and of opinion cannot be the  
same4  ,then if being is the            
subject-matter of knowledge1 something  
else must be the subject-matter of      
opinion8  ,yes1 something else4  ,well  
then1 is not-being the subject-matter of
 opinion8 or1 rather1 how can there be  
an opinion at all about not-being8      
,reflect3 when a man has an opinion1 has
 he not an opinion about something8     
,can he have an opinion which is an     
opinion about nothing8  ,impossible4    
,he who has an opinion has an opinion   
about some one thing8  ,yes4  ,and      

not-being is not one thing but1 properly
 speaking1 nothing8  ,true4  ,of        
not-being1 ignorance was assumed to be  
the necessary correlative2 of being1    
knowledge8  ,true1 he said4  ,then      
opinion is not concerned either with    
being or with not-being8  ,not with     
either4  ,and can therefore neither be  
ignorance nor knowledge8  ,that seems to
 be true4  ,but is opinion to be sought 
without and beyond either of them1 in a 
greater clearness than knowledge1 or in 
a greater darkness than ignorance8  ,in 
neither4  ,then ,i suppose that opinion 
appears to you to be darker than        
knowledge1 but lighter than ignorance8  
,both2 and in no small degree4  ,and    
also to be within and between them8     
,yes4  ,then you would infer that       
opinion is intermediate8  ,no question4 
,but were we not saying before1 that if 
anything appeared to be of a sort which 
is and is not at the same time1 that    
sort of thing would appear also to lie  
in the interval between pure being and  

absolute not-being2 and that the        
corresponding faculty is neither        
knowledge nor ignorance1 but will be    
found in the interval between them8     
,true4  ,and in that interval there has 
now been discovered something which we  
call opinion8  ,there has4  ,then what  
remains to be discovered is the object  
which partakes equally of the nature of 
being and not-being1 and cannot rightly 
be termed either1 pure and simple2 this 
unknown term1 when discovered1 we may   
truly call the subject of opinion1 and  
assign each to its proper faculty1 the  
extremes to the faculties of the        
extremes and the mean to the faculty of 
the mean4  ,true4  ,this being premised1
 ,i would ask the gentleman who is of   
opinion that there is no absolute or    
unchangeable idea of beauty--in whose   
opinion the beautiful is the            
manifold--he1 ,i say1 your lover of     
beautiful sights1 who cannot bear to be 
told that the beautiful is one1 and the 
just is one1 or that anything is one--to

 him ,i would appeal1 saying1 ,will you 
be so very kind1 sir1 as to tell us     
whether1 of all these beautiful things1 
there is one which will not be found    
ugly2 or of the just1 which will not be 
found unjust2 or of the holy1 which will
 not also be unholy8  ,no1 he replied2  
the beautiful will in some point of view
 be found ugly2 and the same is true of 
the rest4  ,and may not the many which  
are doubles be also halves8--doubles1   
that is1 of one thing1 and halves of    
another8  ,quite true4  ,and things     
great and small1 heavy and light1 as    
they are termed1 will not be denoted by 
these any more than by the opposite     
names8  ,true2 both these and the       
opposite names will always attach to all
 of them4  ,and can any one of those    
many things which are called by         
particular names be said to be this     
rather than not to be this8  ,he        
replied3  ,they are like the punning    
riddles which are asked at feasts or the
 children's puzzle about the eunuch     

aiming at the bat1 with what he hit him1
 as they say in the puzzle1 and upon    
what the bat was sitting4  ,the         
individual objects of which ,i am       
speaking are also a riddle1 and have a  
double sense3 nor can you fix them in   
your mind1 either as being or not-being1
 or both1 or neither4  ,then what will  
you do with them8  ,i said4  ,can they  
have a better place than between being  
and not-being8 ,for they are clearly not
 in greater darkness or negation than   
not-being1 or more full of light and    
existence than being4  ,that is quite   
true1 he said4  ,thus then we seem to   
have discovered that the many ideas     
which the multitude entertain about the 
beautiful and about all other things are
 tossing about in some region which is  
halfway between pure being and pure     
not-being8  ,we have4  ,yes2 and we had 
before agreed that anything of this kind
 which we might find was to be described
 as matter of opinion1 and not as matter
 of knowledge2 being the intermediate   

flux which is caught and detained by the
 intermediate faculty4  ,quite true4    
,then those who see the many beautiful1 
and who yet neither see absolute beauty1
 nor can follow any guide who points the
 way thither2 who see the many just1 and
 not absolute justice1 and the          
like1--such persons may be said to have 
opinion but not knowledge8  ,that is    
certain4  ,but those who see the        
absolute and eternal and immutable may  
be said to know1 and not to have opinion
 only8  ,neither can that be denied4    
,the one loves and embraces the subjects
 of knowledge1 the other those of       
opinion8  ,the latter are the same1 as  
,i dare say will remember1 who listened 
to sweet sounds and gazed upon fair     
colours1 but would not tolerate the     
existence of absolute beauty4  ,yes1 ,i 
remember4  ,shall we then be guilty of  
any impropriety in calling them lovers  
of opinion rather than lovers of wisdom1
 and will they be very angry with us for
 thus describing them8  ,i shall tell   

them not to be angry2 no man should be  
angry at what is true4  ,but those who  
love the truth in each thing are to be  
called lovers of wisdom and not lovers  
of opinion4  ,assuredly4     ,,book ,,vi
   ,,socrates - ,,glaucon  ,,and thus1  
,glaucon1 after the argument has gone a 
weary way1 the true and the false       
philosophers have at length appeared in 
view4  ,i do not think1 he said1 that   
the way could have been shortened4  ,i  
suppose not1 ,i said2 and yet ,i believe
 that we might have had a better view of
 both of them if the discussion could   
have been confined to this one subject  
and if there were not many other        
questions awaiting us1 which he who     
desires to see in what respect the life 
of the just differs from that of the    
unjust must consider4  ,and what is the 
next question8 he asked4  ,surely1 ,i   
said1 the one which follows next in     
order4  ,inasmuch as philosophers only  
are able to grasp the eternal and       
unchangeable1 and those who wander in   

the region of the many and variable are 
not philosophers1 ,i must ask you which 
of the two classes should be the rulers 
of our ,state8  ,and how can we rightly 
answer that question8  ,whichever of the
 two are best able to guard the laws and
 institutions of our ,state--let them be
 our guardians4  ,very good4  ,neither1 
,i said1 can there be any question that 
the guardian who is to keep anything    
should have eyes rather than no eyes8   
,there can be no question of that4  ,and
 are not those who are verily and indeed
 wanting in the knowledge of the true   
being of each thing1 and who have in    
their souls no clear pattern1 and are   
unable as with a painter's eye to look  
at the absolute truth and to that       
original to repair1 and having perfect  
vision of the other world to order the  
laws about beauty1 goodness1 justice in 
this1 if not already ordered1 and to    
guard and preserve the order of         
them--are not such persons1 ,i ask1     
simply blind8  ,truly1 he replied1 they 

are much in that condition4  ,and shall 
they be our guardians when there are    
others who1 besides being their equals  
in experience and falling short of them 
in no particular of virtue1 also know   
the very truth of each thing8  ,there   
can be no reason1 he said1 for rejecting
 those who have this greatest of all    
great qualities2 they must always have  
the first place unless they fail in some
 other respect4  ,suppose then1 ,i said1
 that we determine how far they can     
unite this and the other excellences4   
,by all means4  ,in the first place1 as 
we began by observing1 the nature of the
 philosopher has to be ascertained4  ,we
 must come to an understanding about    
him1 and1 when we have done so1 then1 if
 ,i am not mistaken1 we shall also      
acknowledge that such an union of       
qualities is possible1 and that those in
 whom they are united1 and those only1  
should be rulers in the ,state4  ,what  
do you mean8  ,let us suppose that      
philosophical minds always love         

knowledge of a sort which shows them the
 eternal nature not varying from        
generation and corruption4  ,agreed4    
,and further1 ,i said1 let us agree that
 they are lovers of all true being2     
there is no part whether greater or     
less1 or more or less honourable1 which 
they are willing to renounce2 as we said
 before of the lover and the man of     
ambition4  ,true4  ,and if they are to  
be what we were describing1 is there not
 another quality which they should also 
possess8  ,what quality8  ,truthfulness3
  they will never intentionally receive 
into their mind falsehood1 which is     
their detestation1 and they will love   
the truth4  ,yes1 that may be safely    
affirmed of them4  ',may be1' my friend1
 ,i replied1 is not the word2 say rather
 'must be affirmed3'  for he whose      
nature is amorous of anything cannot    
help loving all that belongs or is akin 
to the object of his affections4        
,right1 he said4  ,and is there anything
 more akin to wisdom than truth8  ,how  

can there be8  ,can the same nature be a
 lover of wisdom and a lover of         
falsehood8  ,never4  ,the true lover of 
learning then must from his earliest    
youth1 as far as in him lies1 desire all
 truth8  ,assuredly4  ,but then again1  
as we know by experience1 he whose      
desires are strong in one direction will
 have them weaker in others2 they will  
be like a stream which has been drawn   
off into another channel4  ,true4  ,he  
whose desires are drawn towards         
knowledge in every form will be absorbed
 in the pleasures of the soul1 and will 
hardly feel bodily pleasure--,i mean1 if
 he be a true philosopher and not a sham
 one4  ,that is most certain4  ,such an 
one is sure to be temperate and the     
reverse of covetous2 for the motives    
which make another man desirous of      
having and spending1 have no place in   
his character4  ,very true4  ,another   
criterion of the philosophical nature   
has also to be considered4  ,what is    
that8  ,there should be no secret corner

 of illiberality2 nothing can more      
antagonistic than meanness to a soul    
which is ever longing after the whole of
 things both divine and human4  ,most   
true1 he replied4  ,then how can he who 
has magnificence of mind and is the     
spectator of all time and all existence1
 think much of human life8  ,he cannot4 
,or can such an one account death       
fearful8  ,no indeed4  ,then the        
cowardly and mean nature has no part in 
true philosophy8  ,certainly not4  ,or  
again3  can he who is harmoniously      
constituted1 who is not covetous or     
mean1 or a boaster1 or a coward-can he1 
,i say1 ever be unjust or hard in his   
dealings8  ,impossible4  ,then you will 
soon observe whether a man is just and  
gentle1 or rude and unsociable2 these   
are the signs which distinguish even in 
youth the philosophical nature from the 
unphilosophical4  ,true4  ,there is     
another point which should be remarked4 
,what point8  ,whether he has or has not
 a pleasure in learning2 for no one will

 love that which gives him pain1 and in 
which after much toil he makes little   
progress4  ,certainly not4  ,and again1 
if he is forgetful and retains nothing  
of what he learns1 will he not be an    
empty vessel8  ,that is certain4        
,labouring in vain1 he must end in      
hating himself and his fruitless        
occupation8  ,yes4  ,then a soul which  
forgets cannot be ranked among genuine  
philosophic natures2 we must insist that
 the philosopher should have a good     
memory8  ,certainly4  ,and once more1   
the inharmonious and unseemly nature can
 only tend to disproportion8            
,undoubtedly4  ,and do you consider     
truth to be akin to proportion or to    
disproportion8  ,to proportion4  ,then1 
besides other qualities1 we must try to 
find a naturally well-proportioned and  
gracious mind1 which will move          
spontaneously towards the true being of 
everything4  ,certainly4  ,well1 and do 
not all these qualities1 which we have  
been enumerating1 go together1 and are  

they not1 in a manner1 necessary to a   
soul1 which is to have a full and       
perfect participation of being8  ,they  
are absolutely necessary1 he replied4   
,and must not that be a blameless study 
which he only can pursue who has the    
gift of a good memory1 and is quick to  
learn1--noble1 gracious1 the friend of  
truth1 justice1 courage1 temperance1 who
 are his kindred8  ,the god of jealousy 
himself1 he said1 could find no fault   
with such a study4  ,and to men like    
him1 ,i said1 when perfected by years   
and education1 and to these only you    
will entrust the ,state4  ,,socrates -  
,,adeimantus  ,here ,adeimantus         
interposed and said3  ,to these         
statements1 ,socrates1 no one can offer 
a reply2 but when you talk in this way1 
a strange feeling passes over the minds 
of your hearers3  ,they fancy that they 
are led astray a little at each step in 
the argument1 owing to their own want of
 skill in asking and answering          
questions2 these littles accumulate1 and

 at the end of the discussion they are  
found to have sustained a mighty        
overthrow and all their former notions  
appear to be turned upside down4  ,and  
as unskilful players of draughts are at 
last shut up by their more skilful      
adversaries and have no piece to move1  
so they too find themselves shut up at  
last2 for they have nothing to say in   
this new game of which words are the    
counters2 and yet all the time they are 
in the right4  ,the observation is      
suggested to me by what is now          
occurring4  ,for any one of us might    
say1 that although in words he is not   
able to meet you at each step of the    
argument1 he sees as a fact that the    
votaries of philosophy1 when they carry 
on the study1 not only in youth as a    
part of education1 but as the pursuit of
 their maturer years1 most of them      
become strange monsters1 not to say     
utter rogues1 and that those who may be 
considered the best of them are made    
useless to the world by the very study  

which you extol4  ,well1 and do you     
think that those who say so are wrong8  
,i cannot tell1 he replied2 but ,i      
should like to know what is your        
opinion4  ,hear my answer2 ,i am of     
opinion that they are quite right4      
,then how can you be justified in saying
 that cities will not cease from evil   
until philosophers rule in them1 when   
philosophers are acknowledged by us to  
be of no use to them8  ,you ask a       
question1 ,i said1 to which a reply can 
only be given in a parable4  ,yes1      
,socrates2 and that is a way of speaking
 to which you are not at all accustomed1
 ,i suppose4  ,i perceive1 ,i said1 that
 you are vastly amused at having plunged
 me into such a hopeless discussion2 but
 now hear the parable1 and then you will
 be still more amused at the meagreness 
of my imagination3 for the manner in    
which the best men are treated in their 
own ,states is so grievous that no      
single thing on earth is comparable to  
it2 and therefore1 if ,i am to plead    

their cause1 ,i must have recourse to   
fiction1 and put together a figure made 
up of many things1 like the fabulous    
unions of goats and stags which are     
found in pictures4 ,imagine then a fleet
 or a ship in which there is a captain  
who is taller and stronger than any of  
the crew1 but he is a little deaf and   
has a similar infirmity in sight1 and   
his knowledge of navigation is not much 
better4  ,the sailors are quarrelling   
with one another about the              
steering--every one is of opinion that  
he has a right to steer1 though he has  
never learned the art of navigation and 
cannot tell who taught him or when he   
learned1 and will further assert that it
 cannot be taught1 and they are ready to
 cut in pieces any one who says the     
contrary4  ,they throng about the       
captain1 begging and praying him to     
commit the helm to them2 and if at any  
time they do not prevail1 but others are
 preferred to them1 they kill the others
 or throw them overboard1 and having    

first chained up the noble captain's    
senses with drink or some narcotic drug1
 they mutiny and take possession of the 
ship and make free with the stores2     
thus1 eating and drinking1 they proceed 
on their voyage in such a manner as     
might be expected of them4 ,him who is  
their partisan and cleverly aids them in
 their plot for getting the ship out of 
the captain's hands into their own      
whether by force or persuasion1 they    
compliment with the name of sailor1     
pilot1 able seaman1 and abuse the other 
sort of man1 whom they call a           
good-for-nothing2 but that the true     
pilot must pay attention to the year and
 seasons and sky and stars and winds1   
and whatever else belongs to his art1 if
 he intends to be really qualified for  
the command of a ship1 and that he must 
and will be the steerer1 whether other  
people like or not-the possibility of   
this union of authority with the        
steerer's art has never seriously       
entered into their thoughts or been made

 part of their calling4  ,now in vessels
 which are in a state of mutiny and by  
sailors who are mutineers1 how will the 
true pilot be regarded8  ,will he not be
 called by them a prater1 a star-gazer1 
a good-for-nothing8  ,of course1 said   
,adeimantus4  ,then you will hardly     
need1 ,i said1 to hear the              
interpretation of the figure1 which     
describes the true philosopher in his   
relation to the ,state2 for you         
understand already4  ,certainly4  ,then 
suppose you now take this parable to the
 gentleman who is surprised at finding  
that philosophers have no honour in     
their cities2 explain it to him and try 
to convince him that their having honour
 would be far more extraordinary4  ,i   
will4  ,say to him1 that1 in deeming the
 best votaries of philosophy to be      
useless to the rest of the world1 he is 
right2 but also tell him to attribute   
their uselessness to the fault of those 
who will not use them1 and not to       
themselves4  ,the pilot should not      

humbly beg the sailors to be commanded  
by him--that is not the order of nature2
 neither are 'the wise to go to the     
doors of the rich'--the ingenious author
 of this saying told a lie--but the     
truth is1 that1 when a man is ill1      
whether he be rich or poor1 to the      
physician he must go1 and he who wants  
to be governed1 to him who is able to   
govern4  ,the ruler who is good for     
anything ought not to beg his subjects  
to be ruled by him2 although the present
 governors of mankind are of a different
 stamp2 they may be justly compared to  
the mutinous sailors1 and the true      
helmsmen to those who are called by them
 good-for-nothings and star-gazers4     
,precisely so1 he said4  ,for these     
reasons1 and among men like these1      
philosophy1 the noblest pursuit of all1 
is not likely to be much esteemed by    
those of the opposite faction2 not that 
the greatest and most lasting injury is 
done to her by her opponents1 but by her
 own professing followers1 the same of  

whom you suppose the accuser to say1    
that the greater number of them are     
arrant rogues1 and the best are useless2
 in which opinion ,i agreed4  ,yes4     
,and the reason why the good are useless
 has now been explained8  ,true4  ,then 
shall we proceed to show that the       
corruption of the majority is also      
unavoidable1 and that this is not to be 
laid to the charge of philosophy any    
more than the other8  ,by all means4    
,and let us ask and answer in turn1     
first going back to the description of  
the gentle and noble nature4  ,truth1 as
 you will remember1 was his leader1 whom
 he followed always and in all things2  
failing in this1 he was an impostor1 and
 had no part or lot in true philosophy4 
,yes1 that was said4  ,well1 and is not 
this one quality1 to mention no others1 
greatly at variance with present notions
 of him8  ,certainly1 he said4  ,and    
have we not a right to say in his       
defence1 that the true lover of         
knowledge is always striving after      

being--that is his nature2 he will not  
rest in the multiplicity of individuals 
which is an appearance only1 but will go
 on--the keen edge will not be blunted1 
nor the force of his desire abate until 
he have attained the knowledge of the   
true nature of every essence by a       
sympathetic and kindred power in the    
soul1 and by that power drawing near and
 mingling and becoming incorporate with 
very being1 having begotten mind and    
truth1 he will have knowledge and will  
live and grow truly1 and then1 and not  
till then1 will he cease from his       
travail4  ,nothing1 he said1 can be more
 just than such a description of him4   
,and will the love of a lie be any part 
of a philosopher's nature8  ,will he not
 utterly hate a lie8  ,he will4  ,and   
when truth is the captain1 we cannot    
suspect any evil of the band which he   
leads8  ,impossible4  ,justice and      
health of mind will be of the company1  
and temperance will follow after8       
,true1 he replied4  ,neither is there   

any reason why ,i should again set in   
array the philosopher's virtues1 as you 
will doubtless remember that courage1   
magnificence1 apprehension1 memory1 were
 his natural gifts4  ,and you objected  
that1 although no one could deny what ,i
 then said1 still1 if you leave words   
and look at facts1 the persons who are  
thus described are some of them         
manifestly useless1 and the greater     
number utterly depraved2 we were then   
led to enquire into the grounds of these
 accusations1 and have now arrived at   
the point of asking why are the majority
 bad1 which question of necessity       
brought us back to the examination and  
definition of the true philosopher4     
,exactly4  ,and we have next to consider
 the corruptions of the philosophic     
nature1 why so many are spoiled and so  
few escape spoiling--,i am speaking of  
those who were said to be useless but   
not wicked--and1 when we have done with 
them1 we will speak of the imitators of 
philosophy1 what manner of men are they 

who aspire after a profession which is  
above them and of which they are        
unworthy1 and then1 by their manifold   
inconsistencies1 bring upon philosophy1 
and upon all philosophers1 that         
universal reprobation of which we speak4
  ,what are these corruptions8 he said4 
,i will see if ,i can explain them to   
you4  ,every one will admit that a      
nature having in perfection all the     
qualities which we required in a        
philosopher1 is a rare plant which is   
seldom seen among men4  ,rare indeed4   
,and what numberless and powerful causes
 tend to destroy these rare natures6    
,what causes8  ,in the first place there
 are their own virtues1 their courage1  
temperance1 and the rest of them1 every 
one of which praise worthy qualities    
7and this is a most singular            
circumstance7 destroys and distracts    
from philosophy the soul which is the   
possessor of them4  ,that is very       
singular1 he replied4  ,then there are  
all the ordinary goods of life--beauty1 

wealth1 strength1 rank1 and great       
connections in the ,state--you          
understand the sort of things--these    
also have a corrupting and distracting  
effect4  ,i understand2 but ,i should   
like to know more precisely what you    
mean about them4  ,grasp the truth as a 
whole1 ,i said1 and in the right way2   
you will then have no difficulty in     
apprehending the preceding remarks1 and 
they will no longer appear strange to   
you4  ,and how am ,i to do so8 he asked4
  ,why1 ,i said1 we know that all germs 
or seeds1 whether vegetable or animal1  
when they fail to meet with proper      
nutriment or climate or soil1 in        
proportion to their vigour1 are all the 
more sensitive to the want of a suitable
 environment1 for evil is a greater     
enemy to what is good than what is not4 
,very true4  ,there is reason in        
supposing that the finest natures1 when 
under alien conditions1 receive more    
injury than the inferior1 because the   
contrast is greater4  ,certainly4  ,and 

may we not say1 ,adeimantus1 that the   
most gifted minds1 when they are        
ill-educated1 become pre-eminently bad8 
,do not great crimes and the spirit of  
pure evil spring out of a fulness of    
nature ruined by education rather than  
from any inferiority1 whereas weak      
natures are scarcely capable of any very
 great good or very great evil8  ,there 
,i think that you are right4  ,and our  
philosopher follows the same analogy-he 
is like a plant which1 having proper    
nurture1 must necessarily grow and      
mature into all virtue1 but1 if sown and
 planted in an alien soil1 becomes the  
most noxious of all weeds1 unless he be 
preserved by some divine power4  ,do you
 really think1 as people so often say1  
that our youth are corrupted by         
,sophists1 or that private teachers of  
the art corrupt them in any degree worth
 speaking of8  ,are not the public who  
say these things the greatest of all    
,sophists8  ,and do they not educate to 
perfection young and old1 men and women 

alike1 and fashion them after their own 
hearts8  ,when is this accomplished8 he 
said4  ,when they meet together1 and the
 world sits down at an assembly1 or in a
 court of law1 or a theatre1 or a camp1 
or in any other popular resort1 and     
there is a great uproar1 and they praise
 some things which are being said or    
done1 and blame other things1 equally   
exaggerating both1 shouting and clapping
 their hands1 and the echo of the rocks 
and the place in which they are         
assembled redoubles the sound of the    
praise or blame--at such a time will not
 a young man's heart1 as they say1 leap 
within him8  ,will any private training 
enable him to stand firm against the    
overwhelming flood of popular opinion8  
or will he be carried away by the       
stream8  ,will he not have the notions  
of good and evil which the public in    
general have--he will do as they do1 and
 as they are1 such will he be8  ,yes1   
,socrates2 necessity will compel him4   
,and yet1 ,i said1 there is a still     

greater necessity1 which has not been   
mentioned4  ,what is that8  ,the gentle 
force of attainder or confiscation or   
death which1 as you are aware1 these new
 ,sophists and educators who are the    
public1 apply when their words are      
powerless4  ,indeed they do2 and in     
right good earnest4  ,now what opinion  
of any other ,sophist1 or of any private
 person1 can be expected to overcome in 
such an unequal contest8  ,none1 he     
replied4  ,no1 indeed1 ,i said1 even to 
make the attempt is a great piece of    
folly2 there neither is1 nor has been1  
nor is ever likely to be1 any different 
type of character which has had no other
 training in virtue but that which is   
supplied by public opinion--,i speak1 my
 friend1 of human virtue only2 what is  
more than human1 as the proverb says1 is
 not included3  for ,i would not have   
you ignorant that1 in the present evil  
state of governments1 whatever is saved 
and comes to good is saved by the power 
of ,god1 as we may truly say4  ,i quite 

assent1 he replied4  ,then let me crave 
your assent also to a further           
observation4  ,what are you going to    
say8  ,why1 that all those mercenary    
individuals1 whom the many call         
,sophists and whom they deem to be their
 adversaries1 do1 in fact1 teach nothing
 but the opinion of the many1 that is to
 say1 the opinions of their assemblies2 
and this is their wisdom4  ,i might     
compare them to a man who should study  
the tempers and desires of a mighty     
strong beast who is fed by him-he would 
learn how to approach and handle him1   
also at what times and from what causes 
he is dangerous or the reverse1 and what
 is the meaning of his several cries1   
and by what sounds1 when another utters 
them1 he is soothed or infuriated2 and  
you may suppose further1 that when1 by  
continually attending upon him1 he has  
become perfect in all this1 he calls his
 knowledge wisdom1 and makes of it a    
system or art1 which he proceeds to     
teach1 although he has no real notion of

 what he means by the principles or     
passions of which he is speaking1 but   
calls this honourable and that          
dishonourable1 or good or evil1 or just 
or unjust1 all in accordance with the   
tastes and tempers of the great brute4  
,good he pronounces to be that in which 
the beast delights and evil to be that  
which he dislikes2 and he can give no   
other account of them except that the   
just and noble are the necessary1 having
 never himself seen1 and having no power
 of explaining to others the nature of  
either1 or the difference between them1 
which is immense4 ,by heaven1 would not 
such an one be a rare educator8         
,indeed1 he would4  ,and in what way    
does he who thinks that wisdom is the   
discernment of the tempers and tastes of
 the motley multitude1 whether in       
painting or music1 or1 finally1 in      
politics1 differ from him whom ,i have  
been describing8  ,for when a man       
consorts with the many1 and exhibits to 
them his poem or other work of art or   

the service which he has done the       
,state1 making them his judges when he  
is not obliged1 the so-called necessity 
of ,diomede will oblige him to produce  
whatever they praise4 ,and yet the      
reasons are utterly ludicrous which they
 give in confirmation of their own      
notions about the honourable and good4  
,did you ever hear any of them which    
were not8  ,no1 nor am ,i likely to     
hear4  ,you recognise the truth of what 
,i have been saying8  ,then let me ask  
you to consider further whether the     
world will ever be induced to believe in
 the existence of absolute beauty rather
 than of the many beautiful1 or of the  
absolute in each kind rather than of the
 many in each kind8  ,certainly not4    
,then the world cannot possibly be a    
philosopher8  ,impossible4  ,and        
therefore philosophers must inevitably  
fall under the censure of the world8    
,they must4  ,and of individuals who    
consort with the mob and seek to please 
them8  ,that is evident4  ,then1 do you 

see any way in which the philosopher can
 be preserved in his calling to the end8
 and remember what we were saying of    
him1 that he was to have quickness and  
memory and courage and                  
magnificence--these were admitted by us 
to be the true philosopher's gifts4     
,yes4  ,will not such an one from his   
early childhood be in all things first  
among all1 especially if his bodily     
endowments are like his mental ones8    
,certainly1 he said4  ,and his friends  
and fellow-citizens will want to use him
 as he gets older for their own         
purposes8  ,no question4  ,falling at   
his feet1 they will make requests to him
 and do him honour and flatter him1     
because they want to get into their     
hands now1 the power which he will one  
day possess4  ,that often happens1 he   
said4  ,and what will a man such as he  
be likely to do under such              
circumstances1 especially if he be a    
citizen of a great city1 rich and noble1
 and a tall proper youth8  ,will he not 

be full of boundless aspirations1 and   
fancy himself able to manage the affairs
 of ,hellenes and of barbarians1 and    
having got such notions into his head   
will he not dilate and elevate himself  
in the fulness of vain pomp and         
senseless pride8  ,to be sure he will4  
,now1 when he is in this state of mind1 
if some one gently comes to him and     
tells him that he is a fool and must get
 understanding1 which can only be got by
 slaving for it1 do you think that1     
under such adverse circumstances1 he    
will be easily induced to listen8  ,far 
otherwise4  ,and even if there be some  
one who through inherent goodness or    
natural reasonableness has had his eyes 
opened a little and is humbled and taken
 captive by philosophy1 how will his    
friends behave when they think that they
 are likely to lose the advantage which 
they were hoping to reap from his       
companionship8  ,will they not do and   
say anything to prevent him from        
yielding to his better nature and to    

render his teacher powerless1 using to  
this end private intrigues as well as   
public prosecutions8  ,there can be no  
doubt of it4  ,and how can one who is   
thus circumstanced ever become a        
philosopher8  ,impossible4  ,then were  
we not right in saying that even the    
very qualities which make a man a       
philosopher may1 if he be ill-educated1 
divert him from philosophy1 no less than
 riches and their accompaniments and the
 other so-called goods of life8  ,we    
were quite right4  ,thus1 my excellent  
friend1 is brought about all that ruin  
and failure which ,i have been          
describing of the natures best adapted  
to the best of all pursuits2 they are   
natures which we maintain to be rare at 
any time2 this being the class out of   
which come the men who are the authors  
of the greatest evil to ,states and     
individuals2 and also of the greatest   
good when the tide carries them in that 
direction2 but a small man never was the
 doer of any great thing either to      

individuals or to ,states4  ,that is    
most true1 he said4  ,and so philosophy 
is left desolate1 with her marriage rite
 incomplete3 for her own have fallen    
away and forsaken her1 and while they   
are leading a false and unbecoming life1
 other unworthy persons1 seeing that she
 has no kinsmen to be her protectors1   
enter in and dishonour her2 and fasten  
upon her the reproaches which1 as you   
say1 her reprovers utter1 who affirm of 
her votaries that some are good for     
nothing1 and that the greater number    
deserve the severest punishment4  ,that 
is certainly what people say4  ,yes2 and
 what else would you expect1 ,i said1   
when you think of the puny creatures    
who1 seeing this land open to them--a   
land well stocked with fair names and   
showy titles--like prisoners running out
 of prison into a sanctuary1 take a leap
 out of their trades into philosophy2   
those who do so being probably the      
cleverest hands at their own miserable  
crafts8 ,for1 although philosophy be in 

this evil case1 still there remains a   
dignity about her which is not to be    
found in the arts4  ,and many are thus  
attracted by her whose natures are      
imperfect and whose souls are maimed and
 disfigured by their meannesses1 as     
their bodies are by their trades and    
crafts4  ,is not this unavoidable8      
,yes4  ,are they not exactly like a bald
 little tinker who has just got out of  
durance and come into a fortune2 he     
takes a bath and puts on a new coat1 and
 is decked out as a bridegroom going to 
marry his master's daughter1 who is left
 poor and desolate8  ,a most exact      
parallel4  ,what will be the issue of   
such marriages8  ,will they not be vile 
and bastard8  ,there can be no question 
of it4  ,and when persons who are       
unworthy of education approach          
philosophy and make an alliance with her
 who is a rank above them what sort of  
ideas and opinions are likely to be     
generated8  ,will they not be sophisms  
captivating to the ear1 having nothing  

in them genuine1 or worthy of or akin to
 true wisdom8  ,no doubt1 he said4      
,then1 ,adeimantus1 ,i said1 the worthy 
disciples of philosophy will be but a   
small remnant3  perchance some noble and
 well-educated person1 detained by exile
 in her service1 who in the absence of  
corrupting influences remains devoted to
 her2 or some lofty soul born in a mean 
city1 the politics of which he contemns 
and neglects2 and there may be a gifted 
few who leave the arts1 which they      
justly despise1 and come to her2--or    
peradventure there are some who are     
restrained by our friend ,theages'      
bridle2 for everything in the life of   
,theages conspired to divert him from   
philosophy2 but ill-health kept him away
 from politics4 ,my own case of the     
internal sign is hardly worth           
mentioning1 for rarely1 if ever1 has    
such a monitor been given to any other  
man4  ,those who belong to this small   
class have tasted how sweet and blessed 
a possession philosophy is1 and have    

also seen enough of the madness of the  
multitude2 and they know that no        
politician is honest1 nor is there any  
champion of justice at whose side they  
may fight and be saved4 ,such an one may
 be compared to a man who has fallen    
among wild beasts--he will not join in  
the wickedness of his fellows1 but      
neither is he able singly to resist all 
their fierce natures1 and therefore     
seeing that he would be of no use to the
 ,state or to his friends1 and          
reflecting that he would have to throw  
away his life without doing any good    
either to himself or others1 he holds   
his peace1 and goes his own way4  ,he is
 like one who1 in the storm of dust and 
sleet which the driving wind hurries    
along1 retires under the shelter of a   
wall2 and seeing the rest of mankind    
full of wickedness1 he is content1 if   
only he can live his own life and be    
pure from evil or unrighteousness1 and  
depart in peace and good-will1 with     
bright hopes4  ,yes1 he said1 and he    

will have done a great work before he   
departs4  ,a great work--yes2 but not   
the greatest1 unless he find a ,state   
suitable to him2 for in a ,state which  
is suitable to him1 he will have a      
larger growth and be the saviour of his 
country1 as well as of himself4  ,the   
causes why philosophy is in such an evil
 name have now been sufficiently        
explained3  the injustice of the charges
 against her has been shown-is there    
anything more which you wish to say8    
,nothing more on that subject1 he       
replied2 but ,i should like to know     
which of the governments now existing is
 in your opinion the one adapted to her4
  ,not any of them1 ,i said2 and that is
 precisely the accusation which ,i bring
 against them--not one of them is worthy
 of the philosophic nature1 and hence   
that nature is warped and estranged2--as
 the exotic seed which is sown in a     
foreign land becomes denaturalized1 and 
is wont to be overpowered and to lose   
itself in the new soil1 even so this    

growth of philosophy1 instead of        
persisting1 degenerates and receives    
another character4  ,but if philosophy  
ever finds in the ,state that perfection
 which she herself is1 then will be seen
 that she is in truth divine1 and that  
all other things1 whether natures of men
 or institutions1 are but human2--and   
now1 ,i know that you are going to ask1 
what that ,state is4  ,no1 he said2     
there you are wrong1 for ,i was going to
 ask another question--whether it is the
 ,state of which we are the founders and
 inventors1 or some other8  ,yes1 ,i    
replied1 ours in most respects2 but you 
may remember my saying before1 that some
 living authority would always be       
required in the ,state having the same  
idea of the constitution which guided   
you when as legislator you were laying  
down the laws4  ,that was said1 he      
replied4  ,yes1 but not in a            
satisfactory manner2 you frightened us  
by interposing objections1 which        
certainly showed that the discussion    

would be long and difficult2 and what   
still remains is the reverse of easy4   
,what is there remaining8  ,the question
 how the study of philosophy may be so  
ordered as not to be the ruin of the    
,state3  ,all great attempts are        
attended with risk2 'hard is the good1' 
as men say4  ,still1 he said1 let the   
point be cleared up1 and the enquiry    
will then be complete4  ,i shall not be 
hindered1 ,i said1 by any want of will1 
but1 if at all1 by a want of power3  my 
zeal you may see for yourselves2 and    
please to remark in what ,i am about to 
say how boldly and unhesitatingly ,i    
declare that ,states should pursue      
philosophy1 not as they do now1 but in a
 different spirit4  ,in what manner8    
,at present1 ,i said1 the students of   
philosophy are quite young2 beginning   
when they are hardly past childhood1    
they devote only the time saved from    
moneymaking and housekeeping to such    
pursuits2 and even those of them who are
 reputed to have most of the philosophic

 spirit1 when they come within sight of 
the great difficulty of the subject1 ,i 
mean dialectic1 take themselves off4    
,in after life when invited by some one 
else1 they may1 perhaps1 go and hear a  
lecture1 and about this they make much  
ado1 for philosophy is not considered by
 them to be their proper business3  at  
last1 when they grow old1 in most cases 
they are extinguished more truly than   
,heracleitus' sun1 inasmuch as they     
never light up again4  ,but what ought  
to be their course8  ,just the opposite4
  ,in childhood and youth their study1  
and what philosophy they learn1 should  
be suited to their tender years3 during 
this period while they are growing up   
towards manhood1 the chief and special  
care should be given to their bodies    
that they may have them to use in the   
service of philosophy2 as life advances 
and the intellect begins to mature1 let 
them increase the gymnastics of the     
soul2 but when the strength of our      
citizens fails and is past civil and    

military duties1 then let them range at 
will and engage in no serious labour1 as
 we intend them to live happily here1   
and to crown this life with a similar   
happiness in another4  ,how truly in    
earnest you are1 ,socrates6 he said2 ,i 
am sure of that2 and yet most of your   
hearers1 if ,i am not mistaken1 are     
likely to be still more earnest in their
 opposition to you1 and will never be   
convinced2 ,thrasymachus least of all4  
,do not make a quarrel1 ,i said1 between
 ,thrasymachus and me1 who have recently
 become friends1 although1 indeed1 we   
were never enemies2 for ,i shall go on  
striving to the utmost until ,i either  
convert him and other men1 or do        
something which may profit them against 
the day when they live again1 and hold  
the like discourse in another state of  
existence4  ,you are speaking of a time 
which is not very near4  ,rather1 ,i    
replied1 of a time which is as nothing  
in comparison with eternity4            
,nevertheless1 ,i do not wonder that the

 many refuse to believe2 for they have  
never seen that of which we are now     
speaking realised2 they have seen only a
 conventional imitation of philosophy1  
consisting of words artificially brought
 together1 not like these of ours having
 a natural unity4  ,but a human being   
who in word and work is perfectly       
moulded1 as far as he can be1 into the  
proportion and likeness of virtue--such 
a man ruling in a city which bears the  
same image1 they have never yet seen1   
neither one nor many of them--do you    
think that they ever did8  ,no indeed4  
,no1 my friend1 and they have seldom1 if
 ever1 heard free and noble sentiments2 
such as men utter when they are         
earnestly and by every means in their   
power seeking after truth for the sake  
of knowledge1 while they look coldly on 
the subtleties of controversy1 of which 
the end is opinion and strife1 whether  
they meet with them in the courts of law
 or in society4  ,they are strangers1 he
 said1 to the words of which you speak4 

,and this was what we foresaw1 and this 
was the reason why truth forced us to   
admit1 not without fear and hesitation1 
that neither cities nor ,states nor     
individuals will ever attain perfection 
until the small class of philosophers   
whom we termed useless but not corrupt  
are providentially compelled1 whether   
they will or not1 to take care of the   
,state1 and until a like necessity be   
laid on the ,state to obey them2 or     
until kings1 or if not kings1 the sons  
of kings or princes1 are divinely       
inspired with a true love of true       
philosophy4  ,that either or both of    
these alternatives are impossible1 ,i   
see no reason to affirm3 if they were   
so1 we might indeed be justly ridiculed 
as dreamers and visionaries4  ,am ,i not
 right8  ,quite right4  ,if then1 in the
 countless ages of the past1 or at the  
present hour in some foreign clime which
 is far away and beyond our ken1 the    
perfected philosopher is or has been or 
hereafter shall be compelled by a       

superior power to have the charge of the
 ,state1 we are ready to assert to the  
death1 that this our constitution has   
been1 and is--yea1 and will be whenever 
the ,muse of ,philosophy is queen4      
,there is no impossibility in all this2 
that there is a difficulty1 we          
acknowledge ourselves4  ,my opinion     
agrees with yours1 he said4  ,but do you
 mean to say that this is not the       
opinion of the multitude8  ,i should    
imagine not1 he replied4  ,o my friend1 
,i said1 do not attack the multitude3   
they will change their minds1 if1 not in
 an aggressive spirit1 but gently and   
with the view of soothing them and      
removing their dislike of               
over-education1 you show them your      
philosophers as they really are and     
describe as you were just now doing     
their character and profession1 and then
 mankind will see that he of whom you   
are speaking is not such as they        
supposed--if they view him in this new  
light1 they will surely change their    

notion of him1 and answer in another    
strain4  ,who can be at enmity with one 
who loves them1 who that is himself     
gentle and free from envy will be       
jealous of one in whom there is no      
jealousy8  ,nay1 let me answer for you1 
that in a few this harsh temper may be  
found but not in the majority of        
mankind4  ,i quite agree with you1 he   
said4  ,and do you not also think1 as ,i
 do1 that the harsh feeling which the   
many entertain towards philosophy       
originates in the pretenders1 who rush  
in uninvited1 and are always abusing    
them1 and finding fault with them1 who  
make persons instead of things the theme
 of their conversation8 and nothing can 
be more unbecoming in philosophers than 
this4  ,it is most unbecoming4  ,for he1
 ,adeimantus1 whose mind is fixed upon  
true being1 has surely no time to look  
down upon the affairs of earth1 or to be
 filled with malice and envy1 contending
 against men2 his eye is ever directed  
towards things fixed and immutable1     

which he sees neither injuring nor      
injured by one another1 but all in order
 moving according to reason2 these he   
imitates1 and to these he will1 as far  
as he can1 conform himself4  ,can a man 
help imitating that with which he holds 
reverential converse8  ,impossible4     
,and the philosopher holding converse   
with the divine order1 becomes orderly  
and divine1 as far as the nature of man 
allows2 but like every one else1 he will
 suffer from detraction4  ,of course4   
,and if a necessity be laid upon him of 
fashioning1 not only himself1 but human 
nature generally1 whether in ,states or 
individuals1 into that which he beholds 
elsewhere1 will he1 think you1 be an    
unskilful artificer of justice1         
temperance1 and every civil virtue8     
,anything but unskilful4  ,and if the   
world perceives that what we are saying 
about him is the truth1 will they be    
angry with philosophy8  ,will they      
disbelieve us1 when we tell them that no
 ,state can be happy which is not       

designed by artists who imitate the     
heavenly pattern8  ,they will not be    
angry if they understand1 he said4  ,but
 how will they draw out the plan of     
which you are speaking8  ,they will     
begin by taking the ,state and the      
manners of men1 from which1 as from a   
tablet1 they will rub out the picture1  
and leave a clean surface4  ,this is no 
easy task4  ,but whether easy or not1   
herein will lie the difference between  
them and every other legislator1--they  
will have nothing to do either with     
individual or ,state1 and will inscribe 
no laws1 until they have either found1  
or themselves made1 a clean surface4    
,they will be very right1 he said4      
,having effected this1 they will proceed
 to trace an outline of the             
constitution8  ,no doubt4  ,and when    
they are filling in the work1 as ,i     
conceive1 they will often turn their    
eyes upwards and downwards3  ,i mean    
that they will first look at absolute   
justice and beauty and temperance1 and  

again at the human copy2 and will mingle
 and temper the various elements of life
 into the image of a man2 and thus they 
will conceive according to that other   
image1 which1 when existing among men1  
,homer calls the form and likeness of   
,god4  ,very true1 he said4  ,and one   
feature they will erase1 and another    
they will put in1 they have made the    
ways of men1 as far as possible1        
agreeable to the ways of ,god8  ,indeed1
 he said1 in no way could they make a   
fairer picture4  ,and now1 ,i said1 are 
we beginning to persuade those whom you 
described as rushing at us with might   
and main1 that the painter of           
constitutions is such an one as we are  
praising2 at whom they were so very     
indignant because to his hands we       
committed the ,state2 and are they      
growing a little calmer at what they    
have just heard8  ,much calmer1 if there
 is any sense in them4  ,why1 where can 
they still find any ground for          
objection8  ,will they doubt that the   

philosopher is a lover of truth and     
being8  ,they would not be so           
unreasonable4  ,or that his nature1     
being such as we have delineated1 is    
akin to the highest good8  ,neither can 
they doubt this4  ,but again1 will they 
tell us that such a nature1 placed under
 favourable circumstances1 will not be  
perfectly good and wise if any ever was8
  ,or will they prefer those whom we    
have rejected8  ,surely not4  ,then will
 they still be angry at our saying1     
that1 until philosophers bear rule1     
,states and individuals will have no    
rest from evil1 nor will this our       
imaginary ,state ever be realised8  ,i  
think that they will be less angry4     
,shall we assume that they are not only 
less angry but quite gentle1 and that   
they have been converted and for very   
shame1 if for no other reason1 cannot   
refuse to come to terms8  ,by all means1
 he said4  ,then let us suppose that the
 reconciliation has been effected4      
,will any one deny the other point1 that

 there may be sons of kings or princes  
who are by nature philosophers8  ,surely
 no man1 he said4  ,and when they have  
come into being will any one say that   
they must of necessity be destroyed2    
that they can hardly be saved is not    
denied even by us2 but that in the whole
 course of ages no single one of them   
can escape--who will venture to affirm  
this8  ,who indeed6  ,but1 said ,i1 one 
is enough2 let there be one man who has 
a city obedient to his will1 and he     
might bring into existence the ideal    
polity about which the world is so      
incredulous4  ,yes1 one is enough4  ,the
 ruler may impose the laws and          
institutions which we have been         
describing1 and the citizens may        
possibly be willing to obey them8       
,certainly4  ,and that others should    
approve of what we approve1 is no       
miracle or impossibility8  ,i think not4
  ,but we have sufficiently shown1 in   
what has preceded1 that all this1 if    
only possible1 is assuredly for the     

best4  ,we have4  ,and now we say not   
only that our laws1 if they could be    
enacted1 would be for the best1 but also
 that the enactment of them1 though     
difficult1 is not impossible4  ,very    
good4  ,and so with pain and toil we    
have reached the end of one subject1 but
 more remains to be discussed2--how and 
by what studies and pursuits will the   
saviours of the constitution be created1
 and at what ages are they to apply     
themselves to their several studies8    
,certainly4  ,i omitted the troublesome 
business of the possession of women1 and
 the procreation of children1 and the   
appointment of the rulers1 because ,i   
knew that the perfect ,state would be   
eyed with jealousy and was difficult of 
attainment2 but that piece of cleverness
 was not of much service to me1 for ,i  
had to discuss them all the same4  ,the 
women and children are now disposed of1 
but the other question of the rulers    
must be investigated from the very      
beginning4  ,we were saying1 as you will

 remember1 that they were to be lovers  
of their country1 tried by the test of  
pleasures and pains1 and neither in     
hardships1 nor in dangers1 nor at any   
other critical moment were to lose their
 patriotism--he was to be rejected who  
failed1 but he who always came forth    
pure1 like gold tried in the refiner's  
fire1 was to be made a ruler1 and to    
receive honours and rewards in life and 
after death4  ,this was the sort of     
thing which was being said1 and then the
 argument turned aside and veiled her   
face2 not liking to stir the question   
which has now arisen4  ,i perfectly     
remember1 he said4  ,yes1 my friend1 ,i 
said1 and ,i then shrank from hazarding 
the bold word2 but now let me dare to   
say--that the perfect guardian must be a
 philosopher4  ,yes1 he said1 let that  
be affirmed4  ,and do not suppose that  
there will be many of them2 for the     
gifts which were deemed by us to be     
essential rarely grow together2 they are
 mostly found in shreds and patches4    

,what do you mean8 he said4  ,you are   
aware1 ,i replied1 that quick           
intelligence1 memory1 sagacity1         
cleverness1 and similar qualities1 do   
not often grow together1 and that       
persons who possess them and are at the 
same time high-spirited and magnanimous 
are not so constituted by nature as to  
live orderly and in a peaceful and      
settled manner2 they are driven any way 
by their impulses1 and all solid        
principle goes out of them4  ,very true1
 he said4  ,on the other hand1 those    
steadfast natures which can better be   
depended upon1 which in a battle are    
impregnable to fear and immovable1 are  
equally immovable when there is anything
 to be learned2 they are always in a    
torpid state1 and are apt to yawn and go
 to sleep over any intellectual toil4   
,quite true4  ,and yet we were saying   
that both qualities were necessary in   
those to whom the higher education is to
 be imparted1 and who are to share in   
any office or command4  ,certainly1 he  

said4  ,and will they be a class which  
is rarely found8  ,yes1 indeed4  ,then  
the aspirant must not only be tested in 
those labours and dangers and pleasures 
which we mentioned before1 but there is 
another kind of probation which we did  
not mention--he must be exercised also  
in many kinds of knowledge1 to see      
whether the soul will be able to endure 
the highest of all1 will faint under    
them1 as in any other studies and       
exercises4  ,yes1 he said1 you are quite
 right in testing him4  ,but what do you
 mean by the highest of all knowledge8  
,you may remember1 ,i said1 that we     
divided the soul into three parts2 and  
distinguished the several natures of    
justice1 temperance1 courage1 and       
wisdom8  ,indeed1 he said1 if ,i had    
forgotten1 ,i should not deserve to hear
 more4  ,and do you remember the word of
 caution which preceded the discussion  
of them8  ,to what do you refer8  ,we   
were saying1 if ,i am not mistaken1 that
 he who wanted to see them in their     

perfect beauty must take a longer and   
more circuitous way1 at the end of which
 they would appear2 but that we could   
add on a popular exposition of them on a
 level with the discussion which had    
preceded4 ,and you replied that such an 
exposition would be enough for you1 and 
so the enquiry was continued in what to 
me seemed to be a very inaccurate       
manner2 whether you were satisfied or   
not1 it is for you to say4  ,yes1 he    
said1 ,i thought and the others thought 
that you gave us a fair measure of      
truth4  ,but1 my friend1 ,i said1 a     
measure of such things ,which in any    
degree falls short of the whole truth is
 not fair measure2 for nothing imperfect
 is the measure of anything1 although   
persons are too apt to be contented and 
think that they need search no further4 
,not an uncommon case when people are   
indolent4  ,yes1 ,i said2 and there     
cannot be any worse fault in a guardian 
of the ,state and of the laws4  ,true4  
,the guardian then1 ,i said1 must be    

required to take the longer circuit1 and
 toll at learning as well as at         
gymnastics1 or he will never reach the  
highest knowledge of all which1 as we   
were just now saying1 is his proper     
calling4  ,what1 he said1 is there a    
knowledge still higher than this--higher
 than justice and the other virtues8    
,yes1 ,i said1 there is4  ,and of the   
virtues too we must behold not the      
outline merely1 as at present--nothing  
short of the most finished picture      
should satisfy us4  ,when little things 
are elaborated with an infinity of      
pains1 in order that they may appear in 
their full beauty and utmost clearness1 
how ridiculous that we should not think 
the highest truths worthy of attaining  
the highest accuracy6  ,a right noble   
thought2 but do you suppose that we     
shall refrain from asking you what is   
this highest knowledge8  ,nay1 ,i said1 
ask if you will2 but ,i am certain that 
you have heard the answer many times1   
and now you either do not understand me 

or1 as ,i rather think1 you are disposed
 to be troublesome2 for you have of been
 told that the idea of good is the      
highest knowledge1 and that all other   
things become useful and advantageous   
only by their use of this4  ,you can    
hardly be ignorant that of this ,i was  
about to speak1 concerning which1 as you
 have often heard me say1 we know so    
little2 and1 without which1 any other   
knowledge or possession of any kind will
 profit us nothing4  ,do you think that 
the possession of all other things is of
 any value if we do not possess the     
good8 or the knowledge of all other     
things if we have no knowledge of beauty
 and goodness8  ,assuredly not4  ,you   
are further aware that most people      
affirm pleasure to be the good1 but the 
finer sort of wits say it is knowledge  
,yes4  ,and you are aware too that the  
latter cannot explain what they mean by 
knowledge1 but are obliged after all to 
say knowledge of the good8  ,how        
ridiculous6  ,yes1 ,i said1 that they   

should begin by reproaching us with our 
ignorance of the good1 and then presume 
our knowledge of it--for the good they  
define to be knowledge of the good1 just
 as if we understood them when they use 
the term 'good'--this is of course      
ridiculous4  ,most true1 he said4  ,and 
those who make pleasure their good are  
in equal perplexity2 for they are       
compelled to admit that there are bad   
pleasures as well as good4  ,certainly4 
,and therefore to acknowledge that bad  
and good are the same8  ,true4  ,there  
can be no doubt about the numerous      
difficulties in which this question is  
involved4  ,there can be none4          
,further1 do we not see that many are   
willing to do or to have or to seem to  
be what is just and honourable without  
the reality2 but no one is satisfied    
with the appearance of good--the reality
 is what they seek2 in the case of the  
good1 appearance is despised by every   
one4  ,very true1 he said4  ,of this    
then1 which every soul of man pursues   

and makes the end of all his actions1   
having a presentiment that there is such
 an end1 and yet hesitating because     
neither knowing the nature nor having   
the same assurance of this as of other  
things1 and therefore losing whatever   
good there is in other things1--of a    
principle such and so great as this     
ought the best men in our ,state1 to    
whom everything is entrusted1 to be in  
the darkness of ignorance8  ,certainly  
not1 he said4  ,i am sure1 ,i said1 that
 he who does not know now the beautiful 
and the just are likewise good will be  
but a sorry guardian of them2 and ,i    
suspect that no one who is ignorant of  
the good will have a true knowledge of  
them4  ,that1 he said1 is a shrewd      
suspicion of yours4  ,and if we only    
have a guardian who has this knowledge  
our ,state will be perfectly ordered8   
,of course1 he replied2 but ,i wish that
 you would tell me whether you conceive 
this supreme principle of the good to be
 knowledge or pleasure1 or different    

from either4  ,aye1 ,i said1 ,i knew all
 along that a fastidious gentleman like 
you would not be contented with the     
thoughts of other people about these    
matters4  ,true1 ,socrates2 but ,i must 
say that one who like you has passed a  
lifetime in the study of philosophy     
should not be always repeating the      
opinions of others1 and never telling   
his own4  ,well1 but has any one a right
 to say positively what he does not     
know8  ,not1 he said1 with the assurance
 of positive certainty2 he has no right 
to do that3  but he may say what he     
thinks1 as a matter of opinion4  ,and do
 you not know1 ,i said1 that all mere   
opinions are bad1 and the best of them  
blind8  ,you would not deny that those  
who have any true notion without        
intelligence are only like blind men who
 feel their way along the road8  ,very  
true4  ,and do you wish to behold what  
is blind and crooked and base1 when     
others will tell you of brightness and  
beauty8  ,,glaucon - ,,socrates  ,still1

 ,i must implore you1 ,socrates1 said   
,glaucon1 not to turn away just as you  
are reaching the goal2 if you will only 
give such an explanation of the good as 
you have already given of justice and   
temperance and the other virtues1 we    
shall be satisfied4  ,yes1 my friend1   
and ,i shall be at least equally        
satisfied1 but ,i cannot help fearing   
that ,i shall fall1 and that my         
indiscreet zeal will bring ridicule upon
 me4  ,no1 sweet sirs1 let us not at    
present ask what is the actual nature of
 the good1 for to reach what is now in  
my thoughts would be an effort too great
 for me4  ,but of the child of the good 
who is likest him1 ,i would fain speak1 
if ,i could be sure that you wished to  
hear--otherwise1 not4  ,by all means1 he
 said1 tell us about the child1 and you 
shall remain in our debt for the account
 of the parent4  ,i do indeed wish1 ,i  
replied1 that ,i could pay1 and you     
receive1 the account of the parent1 and 
not1 as now1 of the offspring only2     

take1 however1 this latter by way of    
interest1 and at the same time have a   
care that i do not render a false       
account1 although ,i have no intention  
of deceiving you4  ,yes1 we will take   
all the care that we can3  proceed4     
,yes1 ,i said1 but ,i must first come to
 an understanding with you1 and remind  
you of what ,i have mentioned in the    
course of this discussion1 and at many  
other times4  ,what8  ,the old story1   
that there is a many beautiful and a    
many good1 and so of other things which 
we describe and define2 to all of them  
'many' is applied4  ,true1 he said4     
,and there is an absolute beauty and an 
absolute good1 and of other things to   
which the term 'many' is applied there  
is an absolute2 for they may be brought 
under a single idea1 which is called the
 essence of each4  ,very true4  ,the    
many1 as we say1 are seen but not known1
 and the ideas are known but not seen4  
,exactly4  ,and what is the organ with  
which we see the visible things8  ,the  

sight1 he said4  ,and with the hearing1 
,i said1 we hear1 and with the other    
senses perceive the other objects of    
sense8  ,true4  ,but have you remarked  
that sight is by far the most costly and
 complex piece of workmanship which the 
artificer of the senses ever contrived8 
,no1 ,i never have1 he said4  ,then     
reflect2 has the ear or voice need of   
any third or additional nature in order 
that the one may be able to hear and the
 other to be heard8  ,nothing of the    
sort4  ,no1 indeed1 ,i replied2 and the 
same is true of most1 if not all1 the   
other senses--you would not say that any
 of them requires such an addition8     
,certainly not4  ,but you see that      
without the addition of some other      
nature there is no seeing or being seen8
  ,how do you mean8  ,sight being1 as ,i
 conceive1 in the eyes1 and he who has  
eyes wanting to see2 colour being also  
present in them1 still unless there be a
 third nature specially adapted to the  
purpose1 the owner of the eyes will see 

nothing and the colours will be         
invisible4  ,of what nature are you     
speaking8  ,of that which you term      
light1 ,i replied4  ,true1 he said4     
,noble1 then1 is the bond which links   
together sight and visibility1 and great
 beyond other bonds by no small         
difference of nature2 for light is their
 bond1 and light is no ignoble thing8   
,nay1 he said1 the reverse of ignoble4  
,and which1 ,i said1 of the gods in     
heaven would you say was the lord of    
this element8  ,whose is that light     
which makes the eye to see perfectly and
 the visible to appear8  ,you mean the  
sun1 as you and all mankind say4  ,may  
not the relation of sight to this deity 
be described as follows8  ,how8         
,neither sight nor the eye in which     
sight resides is the sun8  ,no4  ,yet of
 all the organs of sense the eye is the 
most like the sun8  ,by far the most    
like4  ,and the power which the eye     
possesses is a sort of effluence which  
is dispensed from the sun8  ,exactly4   

,then the sun is not sight1 but the     
author of sight who is recognised by    
sight4  ,true1 he said4  ,and this is he
 whom ,i call the child of the good1    
whom the good begat in his own likeness1
 to be in the visible world1 in relation
 to sight and the things of sight1 what 
the good is in the intellectual world in
 relation to mind and the things of     
mind4  ,will you be a little more       
explicit8 he said4  ,why1 you know1 ,i  
said1 that the eyes1 when a person      
directs them towards objects on which   
the light of day is no longer shining1  
but the moon and stars only1 see dimly1 
and are nearly blind2 they seem to have 
no clearness of vision in them8  ,very  
true4  ,but when they are directed      
towards objects on which the sun shines1
 they see clearly and there is sight in 
them8  ,certainly4  ,and the soul is    
like the eye3  when resting upon that on
 which truth and being shine1 the soul  
perceives and understands and is radiant
 with intelligence2 but when turned     

towards the twilight of becoming and    
perishing1 then she has opinion only1   
and goes blinking about1 and is first of
 one opinion and then of another1 and   
seems to have no intelligence8  ,just   
so4  ,now1 that which imparts truth to  
the known and the power of knowing to   
the knower is what ,i would have you    
term the idea of good1 and this you will
 deem to be the cause of science1 and of
 truth in so far as the latter becomes  
the subject of knowledge2 beautiful too1
 as are both truth and knowledge1 you   
will be right in esteeming this other   
nature as more beautiful than either2   
and1 as in the previous instance1 light 
and sight may be truly said to be like  
the sun1 and yet not to be the sun1 so  
in this other sphere1 science and truth 
may be deemed to be like the good1 but  
not the good2 the good has a place of   
honour yet higher4  ,what a wonder of   
beauty that must be1 he said1 which is  
the author of science and truth1 and yet
 surpasses them in beauty2 for you      

surely cannot mean to say that pleasure 
is the good8  ,god forbid1 ,i replied2  
but may ,i ask you to consider the image
 in another point of view8  ,in what    
point of view8  ,you would say1 would   
you not1 that the sun is only the author
 of visibility in all visible things1   
but of generation and nourishment and   
growth1 though he himself is not        
generation8  ,certainly4  ,in like      
manner the good may be said to be not   
only the author of knowledge to all     
things known1 but of their being and    
essence1 and yet the good is not        
essence1 but far exceeds essence in     
dignity and power4  ,glaucon said1 with 
a ludicrous earnestness3  ,by the light 
of heaven1 how amazing6  ,yes1 ,i said1 
and the exaggeration may be set down to 
you2 for you made me utter my fancies4  
,and pray continue to utter them2 at any
 rate let us hear if there is anything  
more to be said about the similitude of 
the sun4  ,yes1 ,i said1 there is a     
great deal more4  ,then omit nothing1   

however slight4  ,i will do my best1 ,i 
said2 but ,i should think that a great  
deal will have to be omitted4  ,you have
 to imagine1 then1 that there are two   
ruling powers1 and that one of them is  
set over the intellectual world1 the    
other over the visible4  ,i do not say  
heaven1 lest you should fancy that ,i am
 playing upon the name 7'ourhanoz1      
orhatoz'74 ,may ,i suppose that you have
 this distinction of the visible and    
intelligible fixed in your mind8  ,i    
have4  ,now take a line which has been  
cut into two unequal parts1 and divide  
each of them again in the same          
proportion1 and suppose the two main    
divisions to answer1 one to the visible 
and the other to the intelligible1 and  
then compare the subdivisions in respect
 of their clearness and want of         
clearness1 and you will find that the   
first section in the sphere of the      
visible consists of images4  ,and by    
images ,i mean1 in the first place1     
shadows1 and in the second place1       

reflections in water and in solid1      
smooth and polished bodies and the like3
  ,do you understand8  ,yes1 ,i         
understand4  ,imagine1 now1 the other   
section1 of which this is only the      
resemblance1 to include the animals     
which we see1 and everything that grows 
or is made4  ,very good4  ,would you not
 admit that both the sections of this   
division have different degrees of      
truth1 and that the copy is to the      
original as the sphere of opinion is to 
the sphere of knowledge8  ,most         
undoubtedly4  ,next proceed to consider 
the manner in which the sphere of the   
intellectual is to be divided4  ,in what
 manner8  ,thus3--,there are two        
subdivisions1 in the lower or which the 
soul uses the figures given by the      
former division as images2 the enquiry  
can only be hypothetical1 and instead of
 going upwards to a principle descends  
to the other end2 in the higher of the  
two1 the soul passes out of hypotheses1 
and goes up to a principle which is     

above hypotheses1 making no use of      
images as in the former case1 but       
proceeding only in and through the ideas
 themselves4  ,i do not quite understand
 your meaning1 he said4  ,then ,i will  
try again2 you will understand me better
 when ,i have made some preliminary     
remarks4  ,you are aware that students  
of geometry1 arithmetic1 and the kindred
 sciences assume the odd and the even   
and the figures and three kinds of      
angles and the like in their several    
branches of science2 these are their    
hypotheses1 which they and everybody are
 supposed to know1 and therefore they do
 not deign to give any account of them  
either to themselves or others2 but they
 begin with them1 and go on until they  
arrive at last1 and in a consistent     
manner1 at their conclusion8  ,yes1 he  
said1 ,i know4  ,and do you not know    
also that although they make use of the 
visible forms and reason about them1    
they are thinking not of these1 but of  
the ideals which they resemble2 not of  

the figures which they draw1 but of the 
absolute square and the absolute        
diameter1 and so on--the forms which    
they draw or make1 and which have       
shadows and reflections in water of     
their own1 are converted by them into   
images1 but they are really seeking to  
behold the things themselves1 which can 
only be seen with the eye of the mind8  
,that is true4  ,and of this kind ,i    
spoke as the intelligible1 although in  
the search after it the soul is         
compelled to use hypotheses2 not        
ascending to a first principle1 because 
she is unable to rise above the region  
of hypothesis1 but employing the objects
 of which the shadows below are         
resemblances in their turn as images1   
they having in relation to the shadows  
and reflections of them a greater       
distinctness1 and therefore a higher    
value4  ,i understand1 he said1 that you
 are speaking of the province of        
geometry and the sister arts4  ,and when
 ,i speak of the other division of the  

intelligible1 you will understand me to 
speak of that other sort of knowledge   
which reason herself attains by the     
power of dialectic1 using the hypotheses
 not as first principles1 but only as   
hypotheses--that is to say1 as steps and
 points of departure into a world which 
is above hypotheses1 in order that she  
may soar beyond them to the first       
principle of the whole2 and clinging to 
this and then to that which depends on  
this1 by successive steps she descends  
again without the aid of any sensible   
object1 from ideas1 through ideas1 and  
in ideas she ends4  ,i understand you1  
he replied2 not perfectly1 for you seem 
to me to be describing a task which is  
really tremendous2 but1 at any rate1 ,i 
understand you to say that knowledge and
 being1 which the science of dialectic  
contemplates1 are clearer than the      
notions of the arts1 as they are termed1
 which proceed from hypotheses only3    
these are also contemplated by the      
understanding1 and not by the senses3   

yet1 because they start from hypotheses 
and do not ascend to a principle1 those 
who contemplate them appear to you not  
to exercise the higher reason upon them1
 although when a first principle is     
added to them they are cognizable by the
 higher reason4  ,and the habit which is
 concerned with geometry and the cognate
 sciences ,i suppose that you would term
 understanding and not reason1 as being 
intermediate between opinion and reason4
  ,you have quite conceived my meaning1 
,i said2 and now1 corresponding to these
 four divisions1 let there be four      
faculties in the soul-reason answering  
to the highest1 understanding to the    
second1 faith 7or conviction7 to the    
third1 and perception of shadows to the 
last-and let there be a scale of them1  
and let us suppose that the several     
faculties have clearness in the same    
degree that their objects have truth4   
,i understand1 he replied1 and give my  
assent1 and accept your arrangement4    
,,book ,,vii   ,,socrates - ,,glaucon   

,,and now1 ,i said1 let me show in a    
figure how far our nature is enlightened
 or unenlightened3--,behold6 human      
beings living in a underground den1     
which has a mouth open towards the light
 and reaching all along the den2 here   
they have been from their childhood1 and
 have their legs and necks chained so   
that they cannot move1 and can only see 
before them1 being prevented by the     
chains from turning round their heads4  
,above and behind them a fire is blazing
 at a distance1 and between the fire and
 the prisoners there is a raised way2   
and you will see1 if you look1 a low    
wall built along the way1 like the      
screen which marionette players have in 
front of them1 over which they show the 
puppets4  ,i see4  ,and do you see1 ,i  
said1 men passing along the wall        
carrying all sorts of vessels1 and      
statues and figures of animals made of  
wood and stone and various materials1   
which appear over the wall8  ,some of   
them are talking1 others silent4  ,you  

have shown me a strange image1 and they 
are strange prisoners4  ,like ourselves1
 ,i replied2 and they see only their own
 shadows1 or the shadows of one another1
 which the fire throws on the opposite  
wall of the cave8  ,true1 he said2 how  
could they see anything but the shadows 
if they were never allowed to move their
 heads8  ,and of the objects which are  
being carried in like manner they would 
only see the shadows8  ,yes1 he said4   
,and if they were able to converse with 
one another1 would they not suppose that
 they were naming what was actually     
before them8  ,very true4  ,and suppose 
further that the prison had an echo     
which came from the other side1 would   
they not be sure to fancy when one of   
the passers-by spoke that the voice     
which they heard came from the passing  
shadow8  ,no question1 he replied4  ,to 
them1 ,i said1 the truth would be       
literally nothing but the shadows of the
 images4  ,that is certain4  ,and now   
look again1 and see what will naturally 

follow it' the prisoners are released   
and disabused of their error4  ,at      
first1 when any of them is liberated and
 compelled suddenly to stand up and turn
 his neck round and walk and look       
towards the light1 he will suffer sharp 
pains2 the glare will distress him1 and 
he will be unable to see the realities  
of which in his former state he had seen
 the shadows2 and then conceive some one
 saying to him1 that what he saw before 
was an illusion1 but that now1 when he  
is approaching nearer to being and his  
eye is turned towards more real         
existence1 he has a clearer vision1 what
 will be his reply8  ,and you may       
further imagine that his instructor is  
pointing to the objects as they pass and
 requiring him to name them1--will he   
not be perplexed8  ,will he not fancy   
that the shadows which he formerly saw  
are truer than the objects which are now
 shown to him8  ,far truer4  ,and if he 
is compelled to look straight at the    
light1 will he not have a pain in his   

eyes which will make him turn away to   
take and take in the objects of vision  
which he can see1 and which he will     
conceive to be in reality clearer than  
the things which are now being shown to 
him8  ,true1 he now  ,and suppose once  
more1 that he is reluctantly dragged up 
a steep and rugged ascent1 and held fast
 until he's forced into the presence of 
the sun himself1 is he not likely to be 
pained and irritated8  ,when he         
approaches the light his eyes will be   
dazzled1 and he will not be able to see 
anything at all of what are now called  
realities4  ,not all in a moment1 he    
said4  ,he will require to grow         
accustomed to the sight of the upper    
world4 ,and first he will see the       
shadows best1 next the reflections of   
men and other objects in the water1 and 
then the objects themselves2 then he    
will gaze upon the light of the moon and
 the stars and the spangled heaven2 and 
he will see the sky and the stars by    
night better than the sun or the light  

of the sun by day8  ,certainly4  ,last  
of he will be able to see the sun1 and  
not mere reflections of him in the      
water1 but he will see him in his own   
proper place1 and not in another2 and he
 will contemplate him as he is4         
,certainly4  ,he will then proceed to   
argue that this is he who gives the     
season and the years1 and is the        
guardian of all that is in the visible  
world1 and in a certain way the cause of
 all things which he and his fellows    
have been accustomed to behold8         
,clearly1 he said1 he would first see   
the sun and then reason about him4  ,and
 when he remembered his old habitation1 
and the wisdom of the den and his       
fellow-prisoners1 do you not suppose    
that he would felicitate himself on the 
change1 and pity them8  ,certainly1 he  
would4  ,and if they were in the habit  
of conferring honours among themselves  
on those who were quickest to observe   
the passing shadows and to remark which 
of them went before1 and which followed 

after1 and which were together2 and who 
were therefore best able to draw        
conclusions as to the future1 do you    
think that he would care for such       
honours and glories1 or envy the        
possessors of them8  ,would he not say  
with ,homer1      ,better to be the poor
 servant of a poor master1  and to      
endure anything1 rather than think as   
they do and live after their manner8    
,yes1 he said1 ,i think that he would   
rather suffer anything than entertain   
these false notions and live in this    
miserable manner4  ,imagine once more1  
,i said1 such an one coming suddenly out
 of the sun to be replaced in his old   
situation2 would he not be certain to   
have his eyes full of darkness8  ,to be 
sure1 he said4  ,and if there were a    
contest1 and he had to compete in       
measuring the shadows with the prisoners
 who had never moved out of the den1    
while his sight was still weak1 and     
before his eyes had become steady 7and  
the time which would be needed to       

acquire this new habit of sight might be
 very considerable7 would he not be     
ridiculous8  ,men would say of him that 
up he went and down he came without his 
eyes2 and that it was better not even to
 think of ascending2 and if any one     
tried to loose another and lead him up  
to the light1 let them only catch the   
offender1 and they would put him to     
death4  ,no question1 he said4  ,this   
entire allegory1 ,i said1 you may now   
append1 dear ,glaucon1 to the previous  
argument2 the prison-house is the world 
of sight1 the light of the fire is the  
sun1 and you will not misapprehend me if
 you interpret the journey upwards to be
 the ascent of the soul into the        
intellectual world according to my poor 
belief1 which1 at your desire1 ,i have  
expressed whether rightly or wrongly    
,god knows4  ,but1 whether true or      
false1 my opinion is that in the world  
of knowledge the idea of good appears   
last of all1 and is seen only with an   
effort2 and1 when seen1 is also inferred

 to be the universal author of all      
things beautiful and right1 parent of   
light and of the lord of light in this  
visible world1 and the immediate source 
of reason and truth in the intellectual2
 and that this is the power upon which  
he who would act rationally1 either in  
public or private life must have his eye
 fixed4  ,i agree1 he said1 as far as ,i
 am able to understand you4  ,moreover1 
,i said1 you must not wonder that those 
who attain to this beatific vision are  
unwilling to descend to human affairs2  
for their souls are ever hastening into 
the upper world where they desire to    
dwell2 which desire of theirs is very   
natural1 if our allegory may be trusted4
  ,yes1 very natural4  ,and is there    
anything surprising in one who passes   
from divine contemplations to the evil  
state of man1 misbehaving himself in a  
ridiculous manner2 if1 while his eyes   
are blinking and before he has become   
accustomed to the surrounding darkness1 
he is compelled to fight in courts of   

law1 or in other places1 about the      
images or the shadows of images of      
justice1 and is endeavouring to meet the
 conceptions of those who have never yet
 seen absolute justice8  ,anything but  
surprising1 he replied4  ,any one who   
has common sense will remember that the 
bewilderments of the eyes are of two    
kinds1 and arise from two causes1 either
 from coming out of the light or from   
going into the light1 which is true of  
the mind's eye1 quite as much as of the 
bodily eye2 and he who remembers this   
when he sees any one whose vision is    
perplexed and weak1 will not be too     
ready to laugh2 he will first ask       
whether that soul of man has come out of
 the brighter light1 and is unable to   
see because unaccustomed to the dark1 or
 having turned from darkness to the day 
is dazzled by excess of light4  ,and he 
will count the one happy in his         
condition and state of being1 and he    
will pity the other2 or1 if he have a   
mind to laugh at the soul which comes   

from below into the light1 there will be
 more reason in this than in the laugh  
which greets him who returns from above 
out of the light into the den4  ,that1  
he said1 is a very just distinction4    
,but then1 if ,i am right1 certain      
professors of education must be wrong   
when they say that they can put a       
knowledge into the soul which was not   
there before1 like sight into blind     
eyes4  ,they undoubtedly say this1 he   
replied4  ,whereas1 our argument shows  
that the power and capacity of learning 
exists in the soul already2 and that    
just as the eye was unable to turn from 
darkness to light without the whole     
body1 so too the instrument of knowledge
 can only by the movement of the whole  
soul be turned from the world of        
becoming into that of being1 and learn  
by degrees to endure the sight of being1
 and of the brightest and best of being1
 or in other words1 of the good4  ,very 
true4  ,and must there not be some art  
which will effect conversion in the     

easiest and quickest manner2 not        
implanting the faculty of sight1 for    
that exists already1 but has been turned
 in the wrong direction1 and is looking 
away from the truth8  ,yes1 he said1    
such an art may be presumed4  ,and      
whereas the other so-called virtues of  
the soul seem to be akin to bodily      
qualities1 for even when they are not   
originally innate they can be implanted 
later by habit and exercise1 the of     
wisdom more than anything else contains 
a divine element which always remains1  
and by this conversion is rendered      
useful and profitable2 or1 on the other 
hand1 hurtful and useless4  ,did you    
never observe the narrow intelligence   
flashing from the keen eye of a clever  
rogue--how eager he is1 how clearly his 
paltry soul sees the way to his end2 he 
is the reverse of blind1 but his keen   
eyesight is forced into the service of  
evil1 and he is mischievous in          
proportion to his cleverness4  ,very    
true1 he said4  ,but what if there had  

been a circumcision of such natures in  
the days of their youth2 and they had   
been severed from those sensual         
pleasures1 such as eating and drinking1 
which1 like leaden weights1 were        
attached to them at their birth1 and    
which drag them down and turn the vision
 of their souls upon the things that are
 below--if1 ,i say1 they had been       
released from these impediments and     
turned in the opposite direction1 the   
very same faculty in them would have    
seen the truth as keenly as they see    
what their eyes are turned to now4      
,very likely4  ,yes1 ,i said2 and there 
is another thing which is likely1 or    
rather a necessary inference from what  
has preceded1 that neither the          
uneducated and uninformed of the truth1 
nor yet those who never make an end of  
their education1 will be able ministers 
of ,state2 not the former1 because they 
have no single aim of duty which is the 
rule of all their actions1 private as   
well as public2 nor the latter1 because 

they will not act at all except upon    
compulsion1 fancying that they are      
already dwelling apart in the islands of
 the blest4  ,very true1 he replied4    
,then1 ,i said1 the business of us who  
are the founders of the ,state will be  
to compel the best minds to attain that 
knowledge which we have already shown to
 be the greatest of all-they must       
continue to ascend until they arrive at 
the good2 but when they have ascended   
and seen enough we must not allow them  
to do as they do now4  ,what do you     
mean8  ,i mean that they remain in the  
upper world3  but this must not be      
allowed2 they must be made to descend   
again among the prisoners in the den1   
and partake of their labours and        
honours1 whether they are worth having  
or not4  ,but is not this unjust8 he    
said2 ought we to give them a worse     
life1 when they might have a better8    
,you have again forgotten1 my friend1 ,i
 said1 the intention of the legislator1 
who did not aim at making any one class 

in the ,state happy above the rest2 the 
happiness was to be in the whole ,state1
 and he held the citizens together by   
persuasion and necessity1 making them   
benefactors of the ,state1 and therefore
 benefactors of one another2 to this end
 he created them1 not to please         
themselves1 but to be his instruments in
 binding up the ,state4  ,true1 he said1
 ,i had forgotten4  ,observe1 ,glaucon1 
that there will be no injustice in      
compelling our philosophers to have a   
care and providence of others2 we shall 
explain to them that in other ,states1  
men of their class are not obliged to   
share in the toils of politics3  and    
this is reasonable1 for they grow up at 
their own sweet will1 and the government
 would rather not have them4  ,being    
self-taught1 they cannot be expected to 
show any gratitude for a culture which  
they have never received4  ,but we have 
brought you into the world to be rulers 
of the hive1 kings of yourselves and of 
the other citizens1 and have educated   

you far better and more perfectly than  
they have been educated1 and you are    
better able to share in the double duty4
  ,wherefore each of you1 when his turn 
comes1 must go down to the general      
underground abode1 and get the habit of 
seeing in the dark4  ,when you have     
acquired the habit1 you will see ten    
thousand times better than the          
inhabitants of the den1 and you will    
know what the several images are1 and   
what they represent1 because you have   
seen the beautiful and just and good in 
their truth4  ,and thus our ,state which
 is also yours will be a reality1 and   
not a dream only1 and will be           
administered in a spirit unlike that of 
other ,states1 in which men fight with  
one another about shadows only and are  
distracted in the struggle for power1   
which in their eyes is a great good4    
,whereas the truth is that the ,state in
 which the rulers are most reluctant to 
govern is always the best and most      
quietly governed1 and the ,state in     

which they are most eager1 the worst4   
,quite true1 he replied4  ,and will our 
pupils1 when they hear this1 refuse to  
take their turn at the toils of ,state1 
when they are allowed to spend the      
greater part of their time with one     
another in the heavenly light8          
,impossible1 he answered2 for they are  
just men1 and the commands which we     
impose upon them are just2 there can be 
no doubt that every one of them will    
take office as a stern necessity1 and   
not after the fashion of our present    
rulers of ,state4  ,yes1 my friend1 ,i  
said2 and there lies the point4  ,you   
must contrive for your future rulers    
another and a better life than that of a
 ruler1 and then you may have a         
well-ordered ,state2 for only in the    
,state which offers this1 will they rule
 who are truly rich1 not in silver and  
gold1 but in virtue and wisdom1 which   
are the true blessings of life4 ,whereas
 if they go to the administration of    
public affairs1 poor and hungering after

 the' own private advantage1 thinking   
that hence they are to snatch the chief 
good1 order there can never be2 for they
 will be fighting about office1 and the 
civil and domestic broils which thus    
arise will be the ruin of the rulers    
themselves and of the whole ,state4     
,most true1 he replied4  ,and the only  
life which looks down upon the life of  
political ambition is that of true      
philosophy4  ,do you know of any other8 
,indeed1 ,i do not1 he said4  ,and those
 who govern ought not to be lovers of   
the task8  ,for1 if they are1 there will
 be rival lovers1 and they will fight4  
,no question4  ,who then are those whom 
we shall compel to be guardians8        
,surely they will be the men who are    
wisest about affairs of ,state1 and by  
whom the ,state is best administered1   
and who at the same time have other     
honours and another and a better life   
than that of politics8  ,they are the   
men1 and ,i will choose them1 he        
replied4  ,and now shall we consider in 

what way such guardians will be         
produced1 and how they are to be brought
 from darkness to light1--as some are   
said to have ascended from the world    
below to the gods8  ,by all means1 he   
replied4  ,the process1 ,i said1 is not 
the turning over of an oyster-shell1 but
 the turning round of a soul passing    
from a day which is little better than  
night to the true day of being1 that is1
 the ascent from below1 which we affirm 
to be true philosophy8  ,quite so4  ,and
 should we not enquire what sort of     
knowledge has the power of effecting    
such a change8  ,certainly4  ,what sort 
of knowledge is there which would draw  
the soul from becoming to being8  ,and  
another consideration has just occurred 
to me3 ,you will remember that our young
 men are to be warrior athletes  ,yes1  
that was said4  ,then this new kind of  
knowledge must have an additional       
quality8  ,what quality8  ,usefulness in
 war4  ,yes1 if possible4  ,there were  
two parts in our former scheme of       

education1 were there not8  ,just so4   
,there was gymnastic which presided over
 the growth and decay of the body1 and  
may therefore be regarded as having to  
do with generation and corruption8      
,true4  ,then that is not the knowledge 
which we are seeking to discover8  ,no4 
,but what do you say of music1 which    
also entered to a certain extent into   
our former scheme8  ,music1 he said1 as 
you will remember1 was the counterpart  
of gymnastic1 and trained the guardians 
by the influences of habit1 by harmony  
making them harmonious1 by rhythm       
rhythmical1 but not giving them science2
 and the words1 whether fabulous or     
possibly true1 had kindred elements of  
rhythm and harmony in them4  ,but in    
music there was nothing which tended to 
that good which you are now seeking4    
,you are most accurate1 ,i said1 in your
 recollection2 in music there certainly 
was nothing of the kind4  ,but what     
branch of knowledge is there1 my dear   
,glaucon1 which is of the desired       

nature2 since all the useful arts were  
reckoned mean by us8  ,undoubtedly2 and 
yet if music and gymnastic are excluded1
 and the arts are also excluded1 what   
remains8  ,well1 ,i said1 there may be  
nothing left of our special subjects2   
and then we shall have to take something
 which is not special1 but of universal 
application4  ,what may that be8  ,a    
something which all arts and sciences   
and intelligences use in common1 and    
which every one first has to learn among
 the elements of education4  ,what is   
that8  ,the little matter of            
distinguishing one1 two1 and three--in a
 word1 number and calculation3--do not  
all arts and sciences necessarily       
partake of them8  ,yes4  ,then the art  
of war partakes of them8  ,to the sure4 
,then ,palamedes1 whenever he appears in
 tragedy1 proves ,agamemnon ridiculously
 unfit to be a general4  ,did you never 
remark how he declares that he had      
invented number1 and had numbered the   
ships and set in array the ranks of the 

army at ,troy2 which implies that they  
had never been numbered before1 and     
,agamemnon must be supposed literally to
 have been incapable of counting his own
 feet--how could he if he was ignorant  
of number8  ,and if that is true1 what  
sort of general must he have been8  ,i  
should say a very strange one1 if this  
was as you say4  ,can we deny that a    
warrior should have a knowledge of      
arithmetic8  ,certainly he should1 if he
 is to have the smallest understanding  
of military tactics1 or indeed1 ,i      
should rather say1 if he is to be a man 
at all4  ,i should like to know whether 
you have the same notion which ,i have  
of this study8  ,what is your notion8   
,it appears to me to be a study of the  
kind which we are seeking1 and which    
leads naturally to reflection1 but never
 to have been rightly used2 for the true
 use of it is simply to draw the soul   
towards being4  ,will you explain your  
meaning8 he said4  ,i will try1 ,i said2
 and ,i wish you would share the enquiry

 with me1 and say 'yes' or 'no' when ,i 
attempt to distinguish in my own mind   
what branches of knowledge have this    
attracting power1 in order that we may  
have clearer proof that arithmetic is1  
as ,i suspect1 one of them4  ,explain1  
he said4  ,i mean to say that objects of
 sense are of two kinds2 some of them do
 not invite thought because the sense is
 an adequate judge of them2 while in the
 case of other objects sense is so      
untrustworthy that further enquiry is   
imperatively demanded4  ,you are clearly
 referring1 he said1 to the manner in   
which the senses are imposed upon by    
distance1 and by painting in light and  
shade4  ,no1 ,i said1 that is not at all
 my meaning4  ,then what is your        
meaning8  ,when speaking of uninviting  
objects1 ,i mean those which do not pass
 from one sensation to the opposite2    
inviting objects are those which do2 in 
this latter case the sense coming upon  
the object1 whether at a distance or    
near1 gives no more vivid idea of       

anything in particular than of its      
opposite4  ,an illustration will make my
 meaning clearer3--here are three       
fingers--a little finger1 a second      
finger1 and a middle finger4  ,very     
good4  ,you may suppose that they are   
seen quite close3  ,and here comes the  
point4  ,what is it8  ,each of them     
equally appears a finger1 whether seen  
in the middle or at the extremity1      
whether white or black1 or thick or     
thin--it makes no difference2 a finger  
is a finger all the same4  ,in these    
cases a man is not compelled to ask of  
thought the question1 what is a finger8 
for the sight never intimates to the    
mind that a finger is other than a      
finger4  ,true4  ,and therefore1 ,i     
said1 as we might expect1 there is      
nothing here which invites or excites   
intelligence4  ,there is not1 he said4  
,but is this equally true of the        
greatness and smallness of the fingers8 
,can sight adequately perceive them8 and
 is no difference made by the           

circumstance that one of the fingers is 
in the middle and another at the        
extremity8  ,and in like manner does the
 touch adequately perceive the qualities
 of thickness or thinness1 or softness  
or hardness8  ,and so of the other      
senses2 do they give perfect intimations
 of such matters8  ,is not their mode of
 operation on this wise--the sense which
 is concerned with the quality of       
hardness is necessarily concerned also  
with the quality of softness1 and only  
intimates to the soul that the same     
thing is felt to be both hard and soft8 
,you are quite right1 he said4  ,and    
must not the soul be perplexed at this  
intimation which the sense gives of a   
hard which is also soft8  ,what1 again1 
is the meaning of light and heavy1 if   
that which is light is also heavy1 and  
that which is heavy1 light8  ,yes1 he   
said1 these intimations which the soul  
receives are very curious and require to
 be explained4  ,yes1 ,i said1 and in   
these perplexities the soul naturally   

summons to her aid calculation and      
intelligence1 that she may see whether  
the several objects announced to her are
 one or two4  ,true4  ,and if they turn 
out to be two1 is not each of them one  
and different8  ,certainly4  ,and if    
each is one1 and both are two1 she will 
conceive the two as in a state of       
division1 for if there were undivided   
they could only be conceived of as one8 
,true4  ,the eye certainly did see both 
small and great1 but only in a confused 
manner2 they were not distinguished4    
,yes4  ,whereas the thinking mind1      
intending to light up the chaos1 was    
compelled to reverse the process1 and   
look at small and great as separate and 
not confused4  ,very true4  ,was not    
this the beginning of the enquiry ',what
 is great8' and ',what is small8'       
,exactly so4  ,and thus arose the       
distinction of the visible and the      
intelligible4  ,most true4  ,this was   
what ,i meant when ,i spoke of          
impressions which invited the intellect1

 or the reverse--those which are        
simultaneous with opposite impressions1 
invite thought2 those which are not     
simultaneous do not4  ,i understand1 he 
said1 and agree with you4  ,and to which
 class do unity and number belong8  ,i  
do not know1 he replied4  ,think a      
little and you will see that what has   
preceded will supply the answer2 for if 
simple unity could be adequately        
perceived by the sight or by any other  
sense1 then1 as we were saying in the   
case of the finger1 there would be      
nothing to attract towards being2 but   
when there is some contradiction always 
present1 and one is the reverse of one  
and involves the conception of          
plurality1 then thought begins to be    
aroused within us1 and the soul         
perplexed and wanting to arrive at a    
decision asks ',what is absolute unity8'
 ,this is the way in which the study of 
the one has a power of drawing and      
converting the mind to the contemplation
 of true being4  ,and surely1 he said1  

this occurs notably in the case of one2 
for we see the same thing to be both one
 and infinite in multitude8  ,yes1 ,i   
said2 and this being true of one must be
 equally true of all number8            
,certainly4  ,and all arithmetic and    
calculation have to do with number8     
,yes4  ,and they appear to lead the mind
 towards truth8  ,yes1 in a very        
remarkable manner4  ,then this is       
knowledge of the kind for which we are  
seeking1 having a double use1 military  
and philosophical2 for the man of war   
must learn the art of number or he will 
not know how to array his troops1 and   
the philosopher also1 because he has to 
rise out of the sea of change and lay   
hold of true being1 and therefore he    
must be an arithmetician4  ,that is     
true4  ,and our guardian is both warrior
 and philosopher8  ,certainly4  ,then   
this is a kind of knowledge which       
legislation may fitly prescribe2 and we 
must endeavour to persuade those who are
 prescribe to be the principal men of   

our ,state to go and learn arithmetic1  
not as amateurs1 but they must carry on 
the study until they see the nature of  
numbers with the mind only2 nor again1  
like merchants or retail-traders1 with a
 view to buying or selling1 but for the 
sake of their military use1 and of the  
soul herself2 and because this will be  
the easiest way for her to pass from    
becoming to truth and being4  ,that is  
excellent1 he said4  ,yes1 ,i said1 and 
now having spoken of it1 ,i must add how
 charming the science is6 and in how    
many ways it conduces to our desired    
end1 if pursued in the spirit of a      
philosopher1 and not of a shopkeeper6   
,how do you mean8  ,i mean1 as ,i was   
saying1 that arithmetic has a very great
 and elevating effect1 compelling the   
soul to reason about abstract number1   
and rebelling against the introduction  
of visible or tangible objects into the 
argument4  ,you know how steadily the   
masters of the art repel and ridicule   
any one who attempts to divide absolute 

unity when he is calculating1 and if you
 divide1 they multiply1 taking care that
 one shall continue one and not become  
lost in fractions4  ,that is very true4 
,now1 suppose a person were to say to   
them3  ,o my friends1 what are these    
wonderful numbers about which you are   
reasoning1 in which1 as you say1 there  
is a unity such as you demand1 and each 
unit is equal1 invariable1              
indivisible1--what would they answer8   
,they would answer1 as ,i should        
conceive1 that they were speaking of    
those numbers which can only be realised
 in thought4  ,then you see that this   
knowledge may be truly called necessary1
 necessitating as it clearly does the   
use of the pure intelligence in the     
attainment of pure truth8  ,yes2 that is
 a marked characteristic of it4  ,and   
have you further observed1 that those   
who have a natural talent for           
calculation are generally quick at every
 other kind of knowledge2 and even the  
dull if they have had an arithmetical   

training1 although they may derive no   
other advantage from it1 always become  
much quicker than they would otherwise  
have been4  ,very true1 he said4  ,and  
indeed1 you will not easily find a more 
difficult study1 and not many as        
difficult4  ,you will not4  ,and1 for   
all these reasons1 arithmetic is a kind 
of knowledge in which the best natures  
should be trained1 and which must not be
 given up4  ,i agree4  ,let this then be
 made one of our subjects of education4 
,and next1 shall we enquire whether the 
kindred science also concerns us8  ,you 
mean geometry8  ,exactly so4  ,clearly1 
he said1 we are concerned with that part
 of geometry which relates to war2 for  
in pitching a camp1 or taking up a      
position1 or closing or extending the   
lines of an army1 or any other military 
manoeuvre1 whether in actual battle or  
on a march1 it will make all the        
difference whether a general is or is   
not a geometrician4  ,yes1 ,i said1 but 
for that purpose a very little of either

 geometry or calculation will be enough2
 the question relates rather to the     
greater and more advanced part of       
geometry--whether that tends in any     
degree to make more easy the vision of  
the idea of good2 and thither1 as ,i was
 saying1 all things tend which compel   
the soul to turn her gaze towards that  
place1 where is the full perfection of  
being1 which she ought1 by all means1 to
 behold4  ,true1 he said4  ,then if     
geometry compels us to view being1 it   
concerns us2 if becoming only1 it does  
not concern us8  ,yes1 that is what we  
assert4  ,yet anybody who has the least 
acquaintance with geometry will not deny
 that such a conception of the science  
is in flat contradiction to the ordinary
 language of geometricians4  ,how so8   
,they have in view practice only1 and   
are always speaking8 in a narrow and    
ridiculous manner1 of squaring and      
extending and applying and the          
like--they confuse the necessities of   
geometry with those of daily life2      

whereas knowledge is the real object of 
the whole science4  ,certainly1 he said4
  ,then must not a further admission be 
made8  ,what admission8  ,that the      
knowledge at which geometry aims is     
knowledge of the eternal1 and not of    
aught perishing and transient4  ,that1  
he replied1 may be readily allowed1 and 
is true4  ,then1 my noble friend1       
geometry will draw the soul towards     
truth1 and create the spirit of         
philosophy1 and raise up that which is  
now unhappily allowed to fall down4     
,nothing will be more likely to have    
such an effect4  ,then nothing should be
 more sternly laid down than that the   
inhabitants of your fair city should by 
all means learn geometry4  ,moreover the
 science has indirect effects1 which are
 not small4  ,of what kind8 he said4    
,there are the military advantages of   
which you spoke1 ,i said2 and in all    
departments of knowledge1 as experience 
proves1 any one who has studied geometry
 is infinitely quicker of apprehension  

than one who has not4  ,yes indeed1 he  
said1 there is an infinite difference   
between them4  ,then shall we propose   
this as a second branch of knowledge    
which our youth will study8  ,let us do 
so1 he replied4  ,and suppose we make   
astronomy the third--what do you say8   
,i am strongly inclined to it1 he said2 
the observation of the seasons and of   
months and years is as essential to the 
general as it is to the farmer or       
sailor4  ,i am amused1 ,i said1 at your 
fear of the world1 which makes you guard
 against the appearance of insisting    
upon useless studies2 and ,i quite admit
 the difficulty of believing that in    
every man there is an eye of the soul   
which1 when by other pursuits lost and  
dimmed1 is by these purified and        
re-illumined2 and is more precious far  
than ten thousand bodily eyes1 for by it
 alone is truth seen4  ,now there are   
two classes of persons3  one class of   
those who will agree with you and will  
take your words as a revelation2 another

 class to whom they will be utterly     
unmeaning1 and who will naturally deem  
them to be idle tales1 for they see no  
sort of profit which is to be obtained  
from them4  ,and therefore you had      
better decide at once with which of the 
two you are proposing to argue4  ,you   
will very likely say with neither1 and  
that your chief aim in carrying on the  
argument is your own improvement2 at the
 same time you do not grudge to others  
any benefit which they may receive4  ,i 
think that ,i should prefer to carry on 
the argument mainly on my own behalf4   
,then take a step backward1 for we have 
gone wrong in the order of the sciences4
  ,what was the mistake8 he said4       
,after plane geometry1 ,i said1 we      
proceeded at once to solids in          
revolution1 instead of taking solids in 
themselves2 whereas after the second    
dimension the third1 which is concerned 
with cubes and dimensions of depth1     
ought to have followed4  ,that is true1 
,socrates2 but so little seems to be    

known as yet about these subjects4      
,why1 yes1 ,i said1 and for two         
reasons3--in the first place1 no        
government patronises them2 this leads  
to a want of energy in the pursuit of   
them1 and they are difficult2 in the    
second place1 students cannot learn them
 unless they have a director4  ,but then
 a director can hardly be found1 and    
even if he could1 as matters now stand1 
the students1 who are very conceited1   
would not attend to him4  ,that1        
however1 would be otherwise if the whole
 ,state became the director of these    
studies and gave honour to them2 then   
disciples would want to come1 and there 
would be continuous and earnest search1 
and discoveries would be made2 since    
even now1 disregarded as they are by the
 world1 and maimed of their fair        
proportions1 and although none of their 
votaries can tell the use of them1 still
 these studies force their way by their 
natural charm1 and very likely1 if they 
had the help of the ,state1 they would  

some day emerge into light4  ,yes1 he   
said1 there is a remarkable charm in    
them4  ,but ,i do not clearly understand
 the change in the order4  ,first you   
began with a geometry of plane surfaces8
  ,yes1 ,i said4  ,and you placed       
astronomy next1 and then you made a step
 backward8  ,yes1 and ,i have delayed   
you by my hurry2 the ludicrous state of 
solid geometry1 which1 in natural order1
 should have followed1 made me pass over
 this branch and go on to astronomy1 or 
motion of solids4  ,true1 he said4      
,then assuming that the science now     
omitted would come into existence if    
encouraged by the ,state1 let us go on  
to astronomy1 which will be fourth4     
,the right order1 he replied4  ,and now1
 ,socrates1 as you rebuked the vulgar   
manner in which ,i praised astronomy    
before1 my praise shall be given in your
 own spirit4  ,for every one1 as ,i     
think1 must see that astronomy compels  
the soul to look upwards and leads us   
from this world to another4  ,every one 

but myself1 ,i said2 to every one else  
this may be clear1 but not to me4  ,and 
what then would you say8  ,i should     
rather say that those who elevate       
astronomy into philosophy appear to me  
to make us look downwards and not       
upwards4  ,what do you mean8 he asked4  
,you1 ,i replied1 have in your mind a   
truly sublime conception of our         
knowledge of the things above4  ,and ,i 
dare say that if a person were to throw 
his head back and study the fretted     
ceiling1 you would still think that his 
mind was the percipient1 and not his    
eyes4  ,and you are very likely right1  
and ,i may be a simpleton3 but1 in my   
opinion1 that knowledge only which is of
 being and of the unseen can make the   
soul look upwards1 and whether a man    
gapes at the heavens or blinks on the   
ground1 seeking to learn some particular
 of sense1 ,i would deny that he can    
learn1 for nothing of that sort is      
matter of science2 his soul is looking  
downwards1 not upwards1 whether his way 

to knowledge is by water or by land1    
whether he floats1 or only lies on his  
back4  ,i acknowledge1 he said1 the     
justice of your rebuke4  ,still1 ,i     
should like to ascertain how astronomy  
can be learned in any manner more       
conducive to that knowledge of which we 
are speaking8  ,i will tell you1 ,i     
said3  ,the starry heaven which we      
behold is wrought upon a visible ground1
 and therefore1 although the fairest and
 most perfect of visible things1 must   
necessarily be deemed inferior far to   
the true motions of absolute swiftness  
and absolute slowness1 which are        
relative to each other1 and carry with  
them that which is contained in them1 in
 the true number and in every true      
figure4  ,now1 these are to be          
apprehended by reason and intelligence1 
but not by sight4  ,true1 he replied4   
,the spangled heavens should be used as 
a pattern and with a view to that higher
 knowledge2 their beauty is like the    
beauty of figures or pictures           

excellently wrought by the hand of      
,daedalus1 or some other great artist1  
which we may chance to behold2 any      
geometrician who saw them would         
appreciate the exquisiteness of their   
workmanship1 but he would never dream of
 thinking that in them he could find the
 true equal or the true double1 or the  
truth of any other proportion4  ,no1 he 
replied1 such an idea would be          
ridiculous4  ,and will not a true       
astronomer have the same feeling when he
 looks at the movements of the stars8   
,will he not think that heaven and the  
things in heaven are framed by the      
,creator of them in the most perfect    
manner8  ,but he will never imagine that
 the proportions of night and day1 or of
 both to the month1 or of the month to  
the year1 or of the stars to these and  
to one another1 and any other things    
that are material and visible can also  
be eternal and subject to no            
deviation--that would be absurd2 and it 
is equally absurd to take so much pains 

in investigating their exact truth4  ,i 
quite agree1 though ,i never thought of 
this before4  ,then1 ,i said1 in        
astronomy1 as in geometry1 we should    
employ problems1 and let the heavens    
alone if we would approach the subject  
in the right way and so make the natural
 gift of reason to be of any real use4  
,that1 he said1 is a work infinitely    
beyond our present astronomers4  ,yes1  
,i said2 and there are many other things
 which must also have a similar         
extension given to them1 if our         
legislation is to be of any value4  ,but
 can you tell me of any other suitable  
study8  ,no1 he said1 not without       
thinking4  ,motion1 ,i said1 has many   
forms1 and not one only2 two of them are
 obvious enough even to wits no better  
than ours2 and there are others1 as ,i  
imagine1 which may be left to wiser     
persons4  ,but where are the two8       
,there is a second1 ,i said1 which is   
the counterpart of the one already      
named4  ,and what may that be8  ,the    

second1 ,i said1 would seem relatively  
to the ears to be what the first is to  
the eyes2 for ,i conceive that as the   
eyes are designed to look up at the     
stars1 so are the ears to hear          
harmonious motions2 and these are sister
 sciences--as the ,pythagoreans say1 and
 we1 ,glaucon1 agree with them8  ,yes1  
he replied4  ,but this1 ,i said1 is a   
laborious study1 and therefore we had   
better go and learn of them2 and they   
will tell us whether there are any other
 applications of these sciences4  ,at   
the same time1 we must not lose sight of
 our own higher object4  ,what is that8 
,there is a perfection which all        
knowledge ought to reach1 and which our 
pupils ought also to attain1 and not to 
fall short of1 as ,i was saying that    
they did in astronomy4  ,for in the     
science of harmony1 as you probably     
know1 the same thing happens4  ,the     
teachers of harmony compare the sounds  
and consonances which are heard only1   
and their labour1 like that of the      

astronomers1 is in vain4  ,yes1 by      
heaven6 he said2 and 'tis as good as a  
play to hear them talking about their   
condensed notes1 as they call them2 they
 put their ears close alongside of the  
strings like persons catching a sound   
from their neighbour's wall--one set of 
them declaring that they distinguish an 
intermediate note and have found the    
least interval which should be the unit 
of measurement2 the others insisting    
that the two sounds have passed into the
 same--either party setting their ears  
before their understanding4  ,you mean1 
,i said1 those gentlemen who tease and  
torture the strings and rack them on the
 pegs of the instrument3  might carry on
 the metaphor and speak after their     
manner of the blows which the plectrum  
gives1 and make accusations against the 
strings1 both of backwardness and       
forwardness to sound2 but this would be 
tedious1 and therefore ,i will only say 
that these are not the men1 and that ,i 
am referring to the ,pythagoreans1 of   

whom ,i was just now proposing to       
enquire about harmony4  ,for they too   
are in error1 like the astronomers2 they
 investigate the numbers of the         
harmonies which are heard1 but they     
never attain to problems-that is to say1
 they never reach the natural harmonies 
of number1 or reflect why some numbers  
are harmonious and others not4  ,that1  
he said1 is a thing of more than mortal 
knowledge4  ,a thing1 ,i replied1 which 
,i would rather call useful2 that is1 if
 sought after with a view to the        
beautiful and good2 but if pursued in   
any other spirit1 useless4  ,very true1 
he said4  ,now1 when all these studies  
reach the point of inter-communion and  
connection with one another1 and come to
 be considered in their mutual          
affinities1 then1 ,i think1 but not till
 then1 will the pursuit of them have a  
value for our objects2 otherwise there  
is no profit in them4  ,i suspect so2   
but you are speaking1 ,socrates1 of a   
vast work4  ,what do you mean8  ,i said2

 the prelude or what8  ,do you not know 
that all this is but the prelude to the 
actual strain which we have to learn8   
,for you surely would not regard the    
skilled mathematician as a dialectician8
  ,assuredly not1 he said2 ,i have      
hardly ever known a mathematician who   
was capable of reasoning4  ,but do you  
imagine that men who are unable to give 
and take a reason will have the         
knowledge which we require of them8     
,neither can this be supposed4  ,and so1
 ,glaucon1 ,i said1 we have at last     
arrived at the hymn of dialectic4  ,this
 is that strain which is of the         
intellect only1 but which the faculty of
 sight will nevertheless be found to    
imitate2 for sight1 as you may remember1
 was imagined by us after a while to    
behold the real animals and stars1 and  
last of all the sun himself4  ,and so   
with dialectic2 when a person starts on 
the discovery of the absolute by the    
light of reason only1 and without any   
assistance of sense1 and perseveres     

until by pure intelligence he arrives at
 the perception of the absolute good1 he
 at last finds himself at the end of the
 intellectual world1 as in the case of  
sight at the end of the visible4        
,exactly1 he said4  ,then this is the   
progress which you call dialectic8      
,true4  ,but the release of the         
prisoners from chains1 and their        
translation from the shadows to the     
images and to the light1 and the ascent 
from the underground den to the sun1    
while in his presence they are vainly   
trying to look on animals and plants and
 the light of the sun1 but are able to  
perceive even with their weak eyes the  
images in the water 7which are divine71 
and are the shadows of true existence   
7not shadows of images cast by a light  
of fire1 which compared with the sun is 
only an image7--this power of elevating 
the highest principle in the soul to the
 contemplation of that which is best in 
existence1 with which we may compare the
 raising of that faculty which is the   

very light of the body to the sight of  
that which is brightest in the material 
and visible world--this power is given1 
as ,i was saying1 by all that study and 
pursuit of the arts which has been      
described4  ,i agree in what you are    
saying1 he replied1 which may be hard to
 believe1 yet1 from another point of    
view1 is harder still to deny4 ,this1   
however1 is not a theme to be treated of
 in passing only1 but will have to be   
discussed again and again4  ,and so1    
whether our conclusion be true or false1
 let us assume all this1 and proceed at 
once from the prelude or preamble to the
 chief strain1 and describe that in like
 manner4  ,say1 then1 what is the nature
 and what are the divisions of          
dialectic1 and what are the paths which 
lead thither2 for these paths will also 
lead to our final rest8  ,dear ,glaucon1
 ,i said1 you will not be able to follow
 me here1 though ,i would do my best1   
and you should behold not an image only 
but the absolute truth1 according to my 

notion4  ,whether what ,i told you would
 or would not have been a reality ,i    
cannot venture to say2 but you would    
have seen something like reality2 of    
that ,i am confident4  ,doubtless1 he   
replied4  ,but ,i must also remind you1 
that the power of dialectic alone can   
reveal this1 and only to one who is a   
disciple of the previous sciences4  ,of 
that assertion you may be as confident  
as of the last4  ,and assuredly no one  
will argue that there is any other      
method of comprehending by any regular  
process all true existence or of        
ascertaining what each thing is in its  
own nature2 for the arts in general are 
concerned with the desires or opinions  
of men1 or are cultivated with a view to
 production and construction1 or for the
 preservation of such productions and   
constructions2 and as to the            
mathematical sciences which1 as we were 
saying1 have some apprehension of true  
being--geometry and the like--they only 
dream about being1 but never can they   

behold the waking reality so long as    
they leave the hypotheses which they use
 unexamined1 and are unable to give an  
account of them4  ,for when a man knows 
not his own first principle1 and when   
the conclusion and intermediate steps   
are also constructed out of he knows not
 what1 how can he imagine that such a   
fabric of convention can ever become    
science8  ,impossible1 he said4  ,then  
dialectic1 and dialectic alone1 goes    
directly to the first principle and is  
the only science which does away with   
hypotheses in order to make her ground  
secure2 the eye of the soul1 which is   
literally buried in an outlandish       
slough1 is by her gentle aid lifted     
upwards2 and she uses as handmaids and  
helpers in the work of conversion1 the  
sciences which we have been discussing4 
,custom terms them sciences1 but they   
ought to have some other name1 implying 
greater clearness than opinion and less 
clearness than science3 and this1 in our
 previous sketch1 was called            

understanding4  ,but why should we      
dispute about names when we have        
realities of such importance to         
consider8  ,why indeed1 he said1 when   
any name will do which expresses the    
thought of the mind with clearness8  ,at
 any rate1 we are satisfied1 as before1 
to have four divisions2 two for         
intellect and two for opinion1 and to   
call the first division science1 the    
second understanding1 the third belief1 
and the fourth perception of shadows1   
opinion being concerned with becoming1  
and intellect with being2 and so to make
 a proportion3--      ,as being is to   
becoming1 so is pure intellect to       
opinion4     ,and as intellect is to    
opinion1 so is science to belief1 and   
understanding to the perception of      
shadows4  ,but let us defer the further 
correlation and subdivision of the      
subjects of opinion and of intellect1   
for it will be a long enquiry1 many     
times longer than this has been4  ,as   
far as ,i understand1 he said1 ,i agree4

  ,and do you also agree1 ,i said1 in   
describing the dialectician as one who  
attains a conception of the essence of  
each thing8  ,and he who does not       
possess and is therefore unable to      
impart this conception1 in whatever     
degree he fails1 may in that degree also
 be said to fail in intelligence8  ,will
 you admit so much8  ,yes1 he said2 how 
can ,i deny it8  ,and you would say the 
same of the conception of the good8     
,until the person is able to abstract   
and define rationally the idea of good1 
and unless he can run the gauntlet of   
all objections1 and is ready to disprove
 them1 not by appeals to opinion1 but to
 absolute truth1 never faltering at any 
step of the argument--unless he can do  
all this1 you would say that he knows   
neither the idea of good nor any other  
good2 he apprehends only a shadow1 if   
anything at all1 which is given by      
opinion and not by science2--dreaming   
and slumbering in this life1 before he  
is well awake here1 he arrives at the   

world below1 and has his final quietus4 
,in all that ,i should most certainly   
agree with you4  ,and surely you would  
not have the children of your ideal     
,state1 whom you are nurturing and      
educating--if the ideal ever becomes a  
reality--you would not allow the future 
rulers to be like posts1 having no      
reason in them1 and yet to be set in    
authority over the highest matters8     
,certainly not4  ,then you will make a  
law that they shall have such an        
education as will enable them to attain 
the greatest skill in asking and        
answering questions8  ,yes1 he said1 you
 and ,i together will make it4          
,dialectic1 then1 as you will agree1 is 
the coping-stone of the sciences1 and is
 set over them2 no other science can be 
placed higher--the nature of knowledge  
can no further go8  ,i agree1 he said4  
,but to whom we are to assign these     
studies1 and in what way they are to be 
assigned1 are questions which remain to 
be considered8  ,yes1 clearly4  ,you    

remember1 ,i said1 how the rulers were  
chosen before8  ,certainly1 he said4    
,the same natures must still be chosen1 
and the preference again given to the   
surest and the bravest1 and1 if         
possible1 to the fairest2 and1 having   
noble and generous tempers1 they should 
also have the natural gifts which will  
facilitate their education4  ,and what  
are these8  ,such gifts as keenness and 
ready powers of acquisition2 for the    
mind more often faints from the severity
 of study than from the severity of     
gymnastics3  the toil is more entirely  
the mind's own1 and is not shared with  
the body4  ,very true1 he replied4      
,further1 he of whom we are in search   
should have a good memory1 and be an    
unwearied solid man who is a lover of   
labour in any line2 or he will never be 
able to endure the great amount of      
bodily exercise and to go through all   
the intellectual discipline and study   
which we require of him4  ,certainly1 he
 said2 he must have natural gifts4  ,the

 mistake at present is1 that those who  
study philosophy have no vocation1 and  
this1 as ,i was before saying1 is the   
reason why she has fallen into          
disrepute3  her true sons should take   
her by the hand and not bastards4  ,what
 do you mean8  ,in the first place1 her 
votary should not have a lame or halting
 industry--,i mean1 that he should not  
be half industrious and half idle3 as1  
for example1 when a man is a lover of   
gymnastic and hunting1 and all other    
bodily exercises1 but a hater rather    
than a lover of the labour of learning  
or listening or enquiring4  ,or the     
occupation to which he devotes himself  
may be of an opposite kind1 and he may  
have the other sort of lameness4        
,certainly1 he said4  ,and as to truth1 
,i said1 is not a soul equally to be    
deemed halt and lame which hates        
voluntary falsehood and is extremely    
indignant at herself and others when    
they tell lies1 but is patient of       
involuntary falsehood1 and does not mind

 wallowing like a swinish beast in the  
mire of ignorance1 and has no shame at  
being detected8  ,to be sure4  ,and1    
again1 in respect of temperance1        
courage1 magnificence1 and every other  
virtue1 should we not carefully         
distinguish between the true son and the
 bastard8 for where there is no         
discernment of such qualities ,states   
and individuals unconsciously err and   
the ,state makes a ruler1 and the       
individual a friend1 of one who1 being  
defective in some part of virtue1 is in 
a figure lame or a bastard4  ,that is   
very true1 he said4  ,all these things1 
then1 will have to be carefully         
considered by us2 and if only those whom
 we introduce to this vast system of    
education and training are sound in body
 and mind1 justice herself will have    
nothing to say against us1 and we shall 
be the saviours of the constitution and 
of the ,state2 but1 if our pupils are   
men of another stamp1 the reverse will  
happen1 and we shall pour a still       

greater flood of ridicule on philosophy 
than she has to endure at present4      
,that would not be creditable4          
,certainly not1 ,i said2 and yet        
perhaps1 in thus turning jest into      
earnest ,i am equally ridiculous4  ,in  
what respect8  ,i had forgotten1 ,i     
said1 that we were not serious1 and     
spoke with too much excitement4  ,for   
when ,i saw philosophy so undeservedly  
trampled under foot of men ,i could not 
help feeling a sort of indignation at   
the authors of her disgrace3  and my    
anger made me too vehement4  ,indeed6   
,i was listening1 and did not think so4 
,but ,i1 who am the speaker1 felt that  
,i was4  ,and now let me remind you     
that1 although in our former selection  
we chose old men1 we must not do so in  
this4  ,solon was under a delusion when 
he said that a man when he grows old may
 learn many things--for he can no more  
learn much than he can run much2 youth  
is the time for any extraordinary toil4 
,of course4  ,and1 therefore1           

calculation and geometry and all the    
other elements of instruction1 which are
 a preparation for dialectic1 should be 
presented to the mind in childhood2 not1
 however1 under any notion of forcing   
our system of education4  ,why not8     
,because a freeman ought not to be a    
slave in the acquisition of knowledge of
 any kind4  ,bodily exercise1 when      
compulsory1 does no harm to the body2   
but knowledge which is acquired under   
compulsion obtains no hold on the mind4 
,very true4  ,then1 my good friend1 ,i  
said1 do not use compulsion1 but let    
early education be a sort of amusement2 
you will then be better able to find out
 the natural bent4  ,that is a very     
rational notion1 he said4  ,do you      
remember that the children1 too1 were to
 be taken to see the battle on          
horseback2 and that if there were no    
danger they were to be brought close up 
and1 like young hounds1 have a taste of 
blood given them8  ,yes1 ,i remember4   
,the same practice may be followed1 ,i  

said1 in all these things--labours1     
lessons1 dangers--and he who is most at 
home in all of them ought to be enrolled
 in a select number4  ,at what age8  ,at
 the age when the necessary gymnastics  
are over3  the period whether of two or 
three years which passes in this sort of
 training is useless for any other      
purpose2 for sleep and exercise are     
unpropitious to learning2 and the trial 
of who is first in gymnastic exercises  
is one of the most important tests to   
which our youth are subjected4          
,certainly1 he replied4  ,after that    
time those who are selected from the    
class of twenty years old will be       
promoted to higher honour1 and the      
sciences which they learned without any 
order in their early education will now 
be brought together1 and they will be   
able to see the natural relationship of 
them to one another and to true being4  
,yes1 he said1 that is the only kind of 
knowledge which takes lasting root4     
,yes1 ,i said2 and the capacity for such

 knowledge is the great criterion of    
dialectical talent3  the comprehensive  
mind is always the dialectical4  ,i     
agree with you1 he said4  ,these1 ,i    
said1 are the points which you must     
consider2 and those who have most of    
this comprehension1 and who are more    
steadfast in their learning1 and in     
their military and other appointed      
duties1 when they have arrived at the   
age of thirty have to be chosen by you  
out of the select class1 and elevated to
 higher honour2 and you will have to    
prove them by the help of dialectic1 in 
order to learn which of them is able to 
give up the use of sight and the other  
senses1 and in company with truth to    
attain absolute being3 ,and here1 my    
friend1 great caution is required4  ,why
 great caution8  ,do you not remark1 ,i 
said1 how great is the evil which       
dialectic has introduced8  ,what evil8  
he said4  ,the students of the art are  
filled with lawlessness4  ,quite true1  
he said4  ,do you think that there is   

anything so very unnatural or           
inexcusable in their case8 or will you  
make allowance for them8  ,in what way  
make allowance8  ,i want you1 ,i said1  
by way of parallel1 to imagine a        
supposititious son who is brought up in 
great wealth2 he is one of a great and  
numerous family1 and has many           
flatterers4  ,when he grows up to       
manhood1 he learns that his alleged are 
not his real parents2 but who the real  
are he is unable to discover4  ,can you 
guess how he will be likely to behave   
towards his flatterers and his supposed 
parents1 first of all during the period 
when he is ignorant of the false        
relation1 and then again when he knows8 
,or shall ,i guess for you8  ,if you    
please4  ,then ,i should say1 that while
 he is ignorant of the truth he will be 
likely to honour his father and his     
mother and his supposed relations more  
than the flatterers2 he will be less    
inclined to neglect them when in need1  
or to do or say anything against them2  

and he will be less willing to disobey  
them in any important matter4  ,he will4
  ,but when he has made the discovery1  
,i should imagine that he would diminish
 his honour and regard for them1 and    
would become more devoted to the        
flatterers2 their influence over him    
would greatly increase2 he would now    
live after their ways1 and openly       
associate with them1 and1 unless he were
 of an unusually good disposition1 he   
would trouble himself no more about his 
supposed parents or other relations4    
,well1 all that is very probable4  ,but 
how is the image applicable to the      
disciples of philosophy8  ,in this way3 
you know that there are certain         
principles about justice and honour1    
which were taught us in childhood1 and  
under their parental authority we have  
been brought up1 obeying and honouring  
them4  ,that is true4  ,there are also  
opposite maxims and habits of pleasure  
which flatter and attract the soul1 but 
do not influence those of us who have   

any sense of right1 and they continue to
 obey and honour the maxims of their    
fathers4  ,true4  ,now1 when a man is in
 this state1 and the questioning spirit 
asks what is fair or honourable1 and he 
answers as the legislator has taught    
him1 and then arguments many and diverse
 refute his words1 until he is driven   
into believing that nothing is          
honourable any more than dishonourable1 
or just and good any more than the      
reverse1 and so of all the notions which
 he most valued1 do you think that he   
will still honour and obey them as      
before8  ,impossible4  ,and when he     
ceases to think them honourable and     
natural as heretofore1 and he fails to  
discover the true1 can he be expected to
 pursue any life other than that which  
flatters his desires8  ,he cannot4  ,and
 from being a keeper of the law he is   
converted into a breaker of it8         
,unquestionably4  ,now all this is very 
natural in students of philosophy such  
as ,i have described1 and also1 as ,i   

was just now saying1 most excusable4    
,yes1 he said2 and1 ,i may add1         
pitiable4  ,therefore1 that your        
feelings may not be moved to pity about 
our citizens who are now thirty years of
 age1 every care must be taken in       
introducing them to dialectic4          
,certainly4  ,there is a danger lest    
they should taste the dear delight too  
early2 for youngsters1 as you may have  
observed1 when they first get the taste 
in their mouths1 argue for amusement1   
and are always contradicting and        
refuting others in imitation of those   
who refute them2 like puppy-dogs1 they  
rejoice in pulling and tearing at all   
who come near them4  ,yes1 he said1     
there is nothing which they like better4
  ,and when they have made many         
conquests and received defeats at the   
hands of many1 they violently and       
speedily get into a way of not believing
 anything which they believed before1   
and hence1 not only they1 but philosophy
 and all that relates to it is apt to   

have a bad name with the rest of the    
world4  ,too true1 he said4  ,but when a
 man begins to get older1 he will no    
longer be guilty of such insanity2 he   
will imitate the dialectician who is    
seeking for truth1 and not the eristic1 
who is contradicting for the sake of    
amusement2 and the greater moderation of
 his character will increase instead of 
diminishing the honour of the pursuit4  
,very true1 he said4  ,and did we not   
make special provision for this1 when we
 said that the disciples of philosophy  
were to be orderly and steadfast1 not1  
as now1 any chance aspirant or intruder8
  ,very true4  ,suppose1 ,i said1 the   
study of philosophy to take the place of
 gymnastics and to be continued         
diligently and earnestly and exclusively
 for twice the number of years which    
were passed in bodily exercise--will    
that be enough8  ,would you say six or  
four years8 he asked4  ,say five years1 
,i replied2 at the end of the time they 
must be sent down again into the den and

 compelled to hold any military or other
 office which young men are qualified to
 hold3 in this way they will get their  
experience of life1 and there will be an
 opportunity of trying whether1 when    
they are drawn all manner of ways by    
temptation1 they will stand firm or     
flinch4  ,and how long is this stage of 
their lives to last8  ,fifteen years1 ,i
 answered2 and when they have reached   
fifty years of age1 then let those who  
still survive and have distinguished    
themselves in every action of their     
lives and in every branch of knowledge  
come at last to their consummation2 the 
time has now arrived at which they must 
raise the eye of the soul to the        
universal light which lightens all      
things1 and behold the absolute good2   
for that is the pattern according to    
which they are to order the ,state and  
the lives of individuals1 and the       
remainder of their own lives also2      
making philosophy their chief pursuit1  
but1 when their turn comes1 toiling also

 at politics and ruling for the public  
good1 not as though they were performing
 some heroic action1 but simply as a    
matter of duty2 and when they have      
brought up in each generation others    
like themselves and left them in their  
place to be governors of the ,state1    
then they will depart to the ,islands of
 the ,blest and dwell there2 and the    
city will give them public memorials and
 sacrifices and honour them1 if the     
,pythian oracle consent1 as demi-gods1  
but if not1 as in any case blessed and  
divine4  ,you are a sculptor1 ,socrates1
 and have made statues of our governors 
faultless in beauty4  ,yes1 ,i said1    
,glaucon1 and of our governesses too2   
for you must not suppose that what ,i   
have been saying applies to men only and
 not to women as far as their natures   
can go4  ,there you are right1 he said1 
since we have made them to share in all 
things like the men4  ,well1 ,i said1   
and you would agree 7would you not87    
that what has been said about the ,state

 and the government is not a mere dream1
 and although difficult not impossible1 
but only possible in the way which has  
been supposed2 that is to say1 when the 
true philosopher kings are born in a    
,state1 one or more of them1 despising  
the honours of this present world which 
they deem mean and worthless1 esteeming 
above all things right and the honour   
that springs from right1 and regarding  
justice as the greatest and most        
necessary of all things1 whose ministers
 they are1 and whose principles will be 
exalted by them when they set in order  
their own city8  ,how will they proceed8
  ,they will begin by sending out into  
the country all the inhabitants of the  
city who are more than ten years old1   
and will take possession of their       
children1 who will be unaffected by the 
habits of their parents2 these they will
 train in their own habits and laws1 ,i 
mean in the laws which we have given    
them3  and in this way the ,state and   
constitution of which we were speaking  

will soonest and most easily attain     
happiness1 and the nation which has such
 a constitution will gain most4  ,yes1  
that will be the best way4  ,and ,i     
think1 ,socrates1 that you have very    
well described how1 if ever1 such a     
constitution might come into being4     
,enough then of the perfect ,state1 and 
of the man who bears its image--there is
 no difficulty in seeing how we shall   
describe him4  ,there is no difficulty1 
he replied2 and ,i agree with you in    
thinking that nothing more need be said4
     ,,book ,,viii   ,,socrates -       
,,glaucon  ,,and so1 ,glaucon1 we have  
arrived at the conclusion that in the   
perfect ,state wives and children are to
 be in common2 and that all education   
and the pursuits of war and peace are   
also to be common1 and the best         
philosophers and the bravest warriors   
are to be their kings8  ,that1 replied  
,glaucon1 has been acknowledged4  ,yes1 
,i said2 and we have further            
acknowledged that the governors1 when   

appointed themselves1 will take their   
soldiers and place them in houses such  
as we were describing1 which are common 
to all1 and contain nothing private1 or 
individual2 and about their property1   
you remember what we agreed8  ,yes1 ,i  
remember that no one was to have any of 
the ordinary possessions of mankind2    
they were to be warrior athletes and    
guardians1 receiving from the other     
citizens1 in lieu of annual payment1    
only their maintenance1 and they were to
 take care of themselves and of the     
whole ,state4  ,true1 ,i said2 and now  
that this division of our task is       
concluded1 let us find the point at     
which we digressed1 that we may return  
into the old path4  ,there is no        
difficulty in returning2 you implied1   
then as now1 that you had finished the  
description of the ,state3  you said    
that such a ,state was good1 and that   
the man was good who answered to it1    
although1 as now appears1 you had more  
excellent things to relate both of      

,state and man4  ,and you said further1 
that if this was the true form1 then the
 others were false2 and of the false    
forms1 you said1 as ,i remember1 that   
there were four principal ones1 and that
 their defects1 and the defects of the  
individuals corresponding to them1 were 
worth examining4 ,when we had seen all  
the individuals1 and finally agreed as  
to who was the best and who was the     
worst of them1 we were to consider      
whether the best was not also the       
happiest1 and the worst the most        
miserable4  ,i asked you what were the  
four forms of government of which you   
spoke1 and then ,polemarchus and        
,adeimantus put in their word2 and you  
began again1 and have found your way to 
the point at which we have now arrived4 
,your recollection1 ,i said1 is most    
exact4  ,then1 like a wrestler1 he      
replied1 you must put yourself again in 
the same position2 and let me ask the   
same questions1 and do you give me the  
same answer which you were about to give

 me then4  ,yes1 if ,i can1 ,i will1 ,i 
said4  ,i shall particularly wish to    
hear what were the four constitutions of
 which you were speaking4  ,that        
question1 ,i said1 is easily answered3  
the four governments of which ,i spoke1 
so far as they have distinct names1 are1
 first1 those of ,crete and ,sparta1    
which are generally applauded2 what is  
termed oligarchy comes next2 this is not
 equally approved1 and is a form of     
government which teems with evils3      
thirdly1 democracy1 which naturally     
follows oligarchy1 although very        
different3 and lastly comes tyranny1    
great and famous1 which differs from    
them all1 and is the fourth and worst   
disorder of a ,state4  ,i do not know1  
do you8 of any other constitution which 
can be said to have a distinct          
character4  ,there are lordships and    
principalities which are bought and     
sold1 and some other intermediate forms 
of government4  ,but these are          
nondescripts and may be found equally   

among ,hellenes and among barbarians4   
,yes1 he replied1 we certainly hear of  
many curious forms of government which  
exist among them4  ,do you know1 ,i     
said1 that governments vary as the      
dispositions of men vary1 and that there
 must be as many of the one as there are
 of the other8  ,for we cannot suppose  
that ,states are made of 'oak and rock1'
 and not out of the human natures which 
are in them1 and which in a figure turn 
the scale and draw other things after   
them8  ,yes1 he said1 the ,states are as
 the men are2 they grow out of human    
characters4  ,then if the constitutions 
of ,states are five1 the dispositions of
 individual minds will also be five8    
,certainly4  ,him who answers to        
aristocracy1 and whom we rightly call   
just and good1 we have already          
described4  ,we have4  ,then let us now 
proceed to describe the inferior sort of
 natures1 being the contentious and     
ambitious1 who answer to the ,spartan   
polity2 also the oligarchical1          

democratical1 and tyrannical4  ,let us  
place the most just by the side of the  
most unjust1 and when we see them we    
shall be able to compare the relative   
happiness or unhappiness of him who     
leads a life of pure justice or pure    
injustice4  ,the enquiry will then be   
completed4  ,and we shall know whether  
we ought to pursue injustice1 as        
,thrasymachus advises1 or in accordance 
with the conclusions of the argument to 
prefer justice4  ,certainly1 he replied1
 we must do as you say4  ,shall we      
follow our old plan1 which we adopted   
with a view to clearness1 of taking the 
,state first and then proceeding to the 
individual1 and begin with the          
government of honour8--,i know of no    
name for such a government other than   
timocracy1 or perhaps timarchy4  ,we    
will compare with this the like         
character in the individual2 and1 after 
that1 consider oligarchical man2 and    
then again we will turn our attention to
 democracy and the democratical man2 and

 lastly1 we will go and view the city of
 tyranny1 and once more take a look into
 the tyrant's soul1 and try to arrive at
 a satisfactory decision4  ,that way of 
viewing and judging of the matter will  
be very suitable4  ,first1 then1 ,i     
said1 let us enquire how timocracy 7the 
government of honour7 arises out of     
aristocracy 7the government of the      
best74 ,clearly1 all political changes  
originate in divisions of the actual    
governing power2 a government which is  
united1 however small1 cannot be moved4 
,very true1 he said4  ,in what way1     
then1 will our city be moved1 and in    
what manner the two classes of          
auxiliaries and rulers disagree among   
themselves or with one another8  ,shall 
we1 after the manner of ,homer1 pray the
 ,muses to tell us 'how discord first   
arose'8 ,shall we imagine them in solemn
 mockery1 to play and jest with us as if
 we were children1 and to address us in 
a lofty tragic vein1 making believe to  
be in earnest8  ,how would they address 

us8  ,after this manner3--,a city which 
is thus constituted can hardly be       
shaken2 but1 seeing that everything     
which has a beginning has also an end1  
even a constitution such as yours will  
not last for ever1 but will in time be  
dissolved4  ,and this is the            
dissolution3--,in plants that grow in   
the earth1 as well as in animals that   
move on the earth's surface1 fertility  
and sterility of soul and body occur    
when the circumferences of the circles  
of each are completed1 which in         
short-lived existences pass over a short
 space1 and in long-lived ones over a   
long space4  ,but to the knowledge of   
human fecundity and sterility all the   
wisdom and education of your rulers will
 not attain2 the laws which regulate    
them will not be discovered by an       
intelligence which is alloyed with      
sense1 but will escape them1 and they   
will bring children into the world when 
they ought not4  ,now that which is of  
divine birth has a period which is      

contained in a perfect number1 but the  
period of human birth is comprehended in
 a number in which first increments by  
involution and evolution 7or squared and
 cubed7 obtaining three intervals and   
four terms of like and unlike1 waxing   
and waning numbers1 make all the terms  
commensurable and agreeable to one      
another4 ,the base of these 7#c7 with a 
third added 7#d7 when combined with five
 7#bj7 and raised to the third power    
furnishes two harmonies2 the first a    
square which is a hundred times as great
 7#djj  #d ,x #ajj71 and the other a    
figure having one side equal to the     
former1 but oblong1 consisting of a     
hundred numbers squared upon rational   
diameters of a square 7i4 e4 omitting   
fractions71 the side of which is five   
7#g ,x #g  #di ,x #ajj  #dijj71 each of 
them being less by one 7than the perfect
 square which includes the fractions1   
sc4 #ej7 or less by two perfect squares 
of irrational diameters 7of a square the
 side of which is five  #ej  #ej  #ajj72

 and a hundred cubes of three 7#bg ,x   
#ajj  #bgjj  #dijj  #djj  #hjjj74 ,now  
this number represents a geometrical    
figure which has control over the good  
and evil of births4  ,for when your     
guardians are ignorant of the law of    
births1 and unite bride and bridegroom  
out of season1 the children will not be 
goodly or fortunate4  ,and though only  
the best of them will be appointed by   
their predecessors1 still they will be  
unworthy to hold their fathers' places1 
and when they come into power as        
guardians1 they will soon be found to   
fall in taking care of us1 the ,muses1  
first by under-valuing music2 which     
neglect will soon extend to gymnastic2  
and hence the young men of your ,state  
will be less cultivated4  ,in the       
succeeding generation rulers will be    
appointed who have lost the guardian    
power of testing the metal of your      
different races1 which1 like ,hesiod's1 
are of gold and silver and brass and    
iron4 ,and so iron will be mingled with 

silver1 and brass with gold1 and hence  
there will arise dissimilarity and      
inequality and irregularity1 which      
always and in all places are causes of  
hatred and war4  ,this the ,muses affirm
 to be the stock from which discord has 
sprung1 wherever arising2 and this is   
their answer to us4  ,yes1 and we may   
assume that they answer truly4  ,why1   
yes1 ,i said1 of course they answer     
truly2 how can the ,muses speak falsely8
  ,and what do the ,muses say next8     
,when discord arose1 then the two races 
were drawn different ways3 the iron and 
brass fell to acquiring money and land  
and houses and gold and silver2 but the 
gold and silver races1 not wanting money
 but having the true riches in their own
 nature1 inclined towards virtue and the
 ancient order of things4  ,there was a 
battle between them1 and at last they   
agreed to distribute their land and     
houses among individual owners2 and they
 enslaved their friends and maintainers1
 whom they had formerly protected in the

 condition of freemen1 and made of them 
subjects and servants2 and they         
themselves were engaged in war and in   
keeping a watch against them4  ,i       
believe that you have rightly conceived 
the origin of the change4  ,and the new 
government which thus arises will be of 
a form intermediate between oligarchy   
and aristocracy8  ,very true4  ,such    
will be the change1 and after the change
 has been made1 how will they proceed8  
,clearly1 the new ,state1 being in a    
mean between oligarchy and the perfect  
,state1 will partly follow one and      
partly the other1 and will also have    
some peculiarities4  ,true1 he said4    
,in the honour given to rulers1 in the  
abstinence of the warrior class from    
agriculture1 handicrafts1 and trade in  
general1 in the institution of common   
meals1 and in the attention paid to     
gymnastics and military training--in all
 these respects this ,state will        
resemble the former4  ,true4  ,but in   
the fear of admitting philosophers to   

power1 because they are no longer to be 
had simple and earnest1 but are made up 
of mixed elements2 and in turning from  
them to passionate and less complex     
characters1 who are by nature fitted for
 war rather than peace2 and in the value
 set by them upon military stratagems   
and contrivances1 and in the waging of  
everlasting wars--this ,state will be   
for the most part peculiar4  ,yes4      
,yes1 ,i said2 and men of this stamp    
will be covetous of money1 like those   
who live in oligarchies2 they will have1
 a fierce secret longing after gold and 
silver1 which they will hoard in dark   
places1 having magazines and treasuries 
of their own for the deposit and        
concealment of them2 also castles which 
are just nests for their eggs1 and in   
which they will spend large sums on     
their wives1 or on any others whom they 
please4  ,that is most true1 he said4   
,and they are miserly because they have 
no means of openly acquiring the money  
which they prize2 they will spend that  

which is another man's on the           
gratification of their desires1 stealing
 their pleasures and running away like  
children from the law1 their father3    
they have been schooled not by gentle   
influences but by force1 for they have  
neglected her who is the true ,muse1 the
 companion of reason and philosophy1 and
 have honoured gymnastic more than      
music4  ,undoubtedly1 he said1 the form 
of government which you describe is a   
mixture of good and evil4  ,why1 there  
is a mixture1 ,i said2 but one thing1   
and one thing only1 is predominantly    
seen1--the spirit of contention and     
ambition2 and these are due to the      
prevalence of the passionate or spirited
 element4  ,assuredly1 he said4  ,such  
is the origin and such the character of 
this ,state1 which has been described in
 outline only2 the more perfect         
execution was not required1 for a sketch
 is enough to show the type of the most 
perfectly just and most perfectly       
unjust2 and to go through all the       

,states and all the characters of men1  
omitting none of them1 would be an      
interminable labour4  ,very true1 he    
replied4  ,now what man answers to this 
form of government-how did he come into 
being1 and what is he like8  ,,socrates 
- ,,adeimantus  ,i think1 said          
,adeimantus1 that in the spirit of      
contention which characterises him1 he  
is not unlike our friend ,glaucon4      
,perhaps1 ,i said1 he may be like him in
 that one point2 but there are other    
respects in which he is very different4 
,in what respects8  ,he should have more
 of self-assertion and be less          
cultivated1 and yet a friend of culture2
 and he should be a good listener1 but  
no speaker4 ,such a person is apt to be 
rough with slaves1 unlike the educated  
man1 who is too proud for that2 and he  
will also be courteous to freemen1 and  
remarkably obedient to authority2 he is 
a lover of power and a lover of honour2 
claiming to be a ruler1 not because he  
is eloquent1 or on any ground of that   

sort1 but because he is a soldier and   
has performed feats of arms2 he is also 
a lover of gymnastic exercises and of   
the chase4  ,yes1 that is the type of   
character which answers to timocracy4   
,such an one will despise riches only   
when he is young2 but as he gets older  
he will be more and more attracted to   
them1 because he has a piece of the     
avaricious nature in him1 and is not    
singleminded towards virtue1 having lost
 his best guardian4  ,who was that8 said
 ,adeimantus4  ,philosophy1 ,i said1    
tempered with music1 who comes and takes
 her abode in a man1 and is the only    
saviour of his virtue throughout life4  
,good1 he said4  ,such1 ,i said1 is the 
timocratical youth1 and he is like the  
timocratical ,state4  ,exactly4  ,his   
origin is as follows3--,he is often the 
young son of a grave father1 who dwells 
in an ill-governed city1 of which he    
declines the honours and offices1 and   
will not go to law1 or exert himself in 
any way1 but is ready to waive his      

rights in order that he may escape      
trouble4  ,and how does the son come    
into being8  ,the character of the son  
begins to develop when he hears his     
mother complaining that her husband has 
no place in the government1 of which the
 consequence is that she has no         
precedence among other women4 ,further1 
when she sees her husband not very eager
 about money1 and instead of battling   
and railing in the law courts or        
assembly1 taking whatever happens to him
 quietly2 and when she observes that his
 thoughts always centre in himself1     
while he treats her with very           
considerable indifference1 she is       
annoyed1 and says to her son that his   
father is only half a man and far too   
easy-going3 adding all the other        
complaints about her own ill-treatment  
which women are so fond of rehearsing4  
,yes1 said ,adeimantus1 they give us    
plenty of them1 and their complaints are
 so like themselves4  ,and you know1 ,i 
said1 that the old servants also1 who   

are supposed to be attached to the      
family1 from time to time talk privately
 in the same strain to the son2 and if  
they see any one who owes money to his  
father1 or is wronging him in any way1  
and he falls to prosecute them1 they    
tell the youth that when he grows up he 
must retaliate upon people of this sort1
 and be more of a man than his father4  
,he has only to walk abroad and he hears
 and sees the same sort of thing3 those 
who do their own business in the city   
are called simpletons1 and held in no   
esteem1 while the busy-bodies are       
honoured and applauded4  ,the result is 
that the young man1 hearing and seeing  
all these thing--hearing too1 the words 
of his father1 and having a nearer view 
of his way of life1 and making          
comparisons of him and others--is drawn 
opposite ways3 while his father is      
watering and nourishing the rational    
principle in his soul1 the others are   
encouraging the passionate and          
appetitive2 and he being not originally 

of a bad nature1 but having kept bad    
company1 is at last brought by their    
joint influence to a middle point1 and  
gives up the kingdom which is within him
 to the middle principle of             
contentiousness and passion1 and becomes
 arrogant and ambitious4  ,you seem to  
me to have described his origin         
perfectly4  ,then we have now1 ,i said1 
the second form of government and the   
second type of character8  ,we have4    
,next1 let us look at another man who1  
as ,aeschylus says1      ,is set over   
against another ,state2  or rather1 as  
our plan requires1 begin with the       
,state4  ,by all means4  ,i believe that
 oligarchy follows next in order4  ,and 
what manner of government do you term   
oligarchy8  ,a government resting on a  
valuation of property1 in which the rich
 have power and the poor man is deprived
 of it4  ,i understand1 he replied4     
,ought ,i not to begin by describing how
 the change from timocracy to oligarchy 
arises8  ,yes4  ,well1 ,i said1 no eyes 

are required in order to see how the one
 passes into the other4  ,how8  ,the    
accumulation of gold in the treasury of 
private individuals is ruin the of      
timocracy2 they invent illegal modes of 
expenditure2 for what do they or their  
wives care about the law8  ,yes1 indeed4
  ,and then one1 seeing another grow    
rich1 seeks to rival him1 and thus the  
great mass of the citizens become lovers
 of money4  ,likely enough4  ,and so    
they grow richer and richer1 and the    
more they think of making a fortune the 
less they think of virtue2 for when     
riches and virtue are placed together in
 the scales of the balance1 the one     
always rises as the other falls4  ,true4
  ,and in proportion as riches and rich 
men are honoured in the ,state1 virtue  
and the virtuous are dishonoured4       
,clearly4  ,and what is honoured is     
cultivated1 and that which has no honour
 is neglected4  ,that is obvious4  ,and 
so at last1 instead of loving contention
 and glory1 men become lovers of trade  

and money2 they honour and look up to   
the rich man1 and make a ruler of him1  
and dishonour the poor man4  ,they do   
so4  ,they next proceed to make a law   
which fixes a sum of money as the       
qualification of citizenship2 the sum is
 higher in one place and lower in       
another1 as the oligarchy is more or    
less exclusive2 and they allow no one   
whose property falls below the amount   
fixed to have any share in the          
government4  ,these changes in the      
constitution they effect by force of    
arms1 if intimidation has not already   
done their work4  ,very true4  ,and     
this1 speaking generally1 is the way in 
which oligarchy is established4  ,yes1  
he said2 but what are the               
characteristics of this form of         
government1 and what are the defects of 
which we were speaking8  ,first of all1 
,i said1 consider the nature of the     
qualification just think what would     
happen if pilots were to be chosen      
according to their property1 and a poor 

man were refused permission to steer1   
even though he were a better pilot8     
,you mean that they would shipwreck8    
,yes2 and is not this true of the       
government of anything8  ,i should      
imagine so4  ,except a city8--or would  
you include a city8  ,nay1 he said1 the 
case of a city is the strongest of all1 
inasmuch as the rule of a city is the   
greatest and most difficult of all4     
,this1 then1 will be the first great    
defect of oligarchy8  ,clearly4  ,and   
here is another defect which is quite as
 bad4  ,what defect8  ,the inevitable   
division3  such a ,state is not one1 but
 two ,states1 the one of poor1 the other
 of rich men2 and they are living on the
 same spot and always conspiring against
 one another4  ,that1 surely1 is at     
least as bad4  ,another discreditable   
feature is1 that1 for a like reason1    
they are incapable of carrying on any   
war4  ,either they arm the multitude1   
and then they are more afraid of them   
than of the enemy2 or1 if they do not   

call them out in the hour of battle1    
they are oligarchs indeed1 few to fight 
as they are few to rule4  ,and at the   
same time their fondness for money makes
 them unwilling to pay taxes4  ,how     
discreditable6  ,and1 as we said before1
 under such a constitution the same     
persons have too many callings--they are
 husbandmen1 tradesmen1 warriors1 all in
 one4  ,does that look well8  ,anything 
but well4  ,there is another evil which 
is1 perhaps1 the greatest of all1 and to
 which this ,state first begins to be   
liable4  ,what evil8  ,a man may sell   
all that he has1 and another may acquire
 his property2 yet after the sale he may
 dwell in the city of which he is no    
longer a part1 being neither trader1 nor
 artisan1 nor horseman1 nor hoplite1 but
 only a poor1 helpless creature4  ,yes1 
that is an evil which also first begins 
in this ,state4  ,the evil is certainly 
not prevented there2 for oligarchies    
have both the extremes of great wealth  
and utter poverty4  ,true4  ,but think  

again3  ,in his wealthy days1 while he  
was spending his money1 was a man of    
this sort a whit more good to the ,state
 for the purposes of citizenship8  ,or  
did he only seem to be a member of the  
ruling body1 although in truth he was   
neither ruler nor subject1 but just a   
spendthrift8  ,as you say1 he seemed to 
be a ruler1 but was only a spendthrift4 
,may we not say that this is the drone  
in the house who is like the drone in   
the honeycomb1 and that the one is the  
plague of the city as the other is of   
the hive8  ,just so1 ,socrates4  ,and   
,god has made the flying drones1        
,adeimantus1 all without stings1 whereas
 of the walking drones he has made some 
without stings but others have dreadful 
stings2 of the stingless class are those
 who in their old age end as paupers2 of
 the stingers come all the criminal     
class1 as they are termed4  ,most true1 
he said4  ,clearly then1 whenever you   
see paupers in a ,state1 somewhere in   
that neighborhood there are hidden away 

thieves1 and cutpurses and robbers of   
temples1 and all sorts of malefactors4  
,clearly4  ,well1 ,i said1 and in       
oligarchical ,states do you not find    
paupers8  ,yes1 he said2 nearly         
everybody is a pauper who is not a      
ruler4  ,and may we be so bold as to    
affirm that there are also many         
criminals to be found in them1 rogues   
who have stings1 and whom the           
authorities are careful to restrain by  
force8  ,certainly1 we may be so bold4  
,the existence of such persons is to be 
attributed to want of education1        
ill-training1 and an evil constitution  
of the ,state8  ,true4  ,such1 then1 is 
the form and such are the evils of      
oligarchy2 and there may be many other  
evils4  ,very likely4  ,then oligarchy1 
or the form of government in which the  
rulers are elected for their wealth1 may
 now be dismissed4  ,let us next proceed
 to consider the nature and origin of   
the individual who answers to this      
,state4  ,by all means4  ,does not the  

timocratical man change into the        
oligarchical on this wise8  ,how8  ,a   
time arrives when the representative of 
timocracy has a son3 at first he begins 
by emulating his father and walking in  
his footsteps1 but presently he sees him
 of a sudden foundering against the     
,state as upon a sunken reef1 and he and
 all that he has is lost2 he may have   
been a general or some other high       
officer who is brought to trial under a 
prejudice raised by informers1 and      
either put to death1 or exiled1 or      
deprived of the privileges of a citizen1
 and all his property taken from him4   
,nothing more likely4  ,and the son has 
seen and known all this--he is a ruined 
man1 and his fear has taught him to     
knock ambition and passion head-foremost
 from his bosom's throne2 humbled by    
poverty he takes to money-making and by 
mean and miserly savings and hard work  
gets a fortune together4  ,is not such  
an one likely to seat the concupiscent  
and covetous element on the vacant      

throne and to suffer it to play the     
great king within him1 girt with tiara  
and chain and scimitar8  ,most true1 he 
replied4  ,and when he has made reason  
and spirit sit down on the ground       
obediently on either side of their      
sovereign1 and taught them to know their
 place1 he compels the one to think only
 of how lesser sums may be turned into  
larger ones1 and will not allow the     
other to worship and admire anything but
 riches and rich men1 or to be ambitious
 of anything so much as the acquisition 
of wealth and the means of acquiring it4
  ,of all changes1 he said1 there is    
none so speedy or so sure as the        
conversion of the ambitious youth into  
the avaricious one4  ,and the           
avaricious1 ,i said1 is the oligarchical
 youth8  ,yes1 he said2 at any rate the 
individual out of whom he came is like  
the ,state out of which oligarchy came4 
,let us then consider whether there is  
any likeness between them4  ,very good4 
,first1 then1 they resemble one another 

in the value which they set upon wealth8
  ,certainly4  ,also in their penurious1
 laborious character2 the individual    
only satisfies his necessary appetites1 
and confines his expenditure to them2   
his other desires he subdues1 under the 
idea that they are unprofitable4  ,true4
  ,he is a shabby fellow1 who saves     
something out of everything and makes a 
purse for himself2 and this is the sort 
of man whom the vulgar applaud4  ,is he 
not a true image of the ,state which he 
represents8  ,he appears to me to be so2
 at any rate money is highly valued by  
him as well as by the ,state4  ,you see 
that he is not a man of cultivation1 ,i 
said4  ,i imagine not1 he said2 had he  
been educated he would never have made a
 blind god director of his chorus1 or   
given him chief honour4  ,excellent6  ,i
 said4  ,yet consider3  ,must we not    
further admit that owing to this want of
 cultivation there will be found in him 
dronelike desires as of pauper and      
rogue1 which are forcibly kept down by  

his general habit of life8  ,true4  ,do 
you know where you will have to look if 
you want to discover his rogueries8     
,where must ,i look8  ,you should see   
him where he has some great opportunity 
of acting dishonestly1 as in the        
guardianship of an orphan4  ,aye4  ,it  
will be clear enough then that in his   
ordinary dealings which give him a      
reputation for honesty he coerces his   
bad passions by an enforced virtue2 not 
making them see that they are wrong1 or 
taming them by reason1 but by necessity 
and fear constraining them1 and because 
he trembles for his possessions4  ,to be
 sure4  ,yes1 indeed1 my dear friend1   
but you will find that the natural      
desires of the drone commonly exist in  
him all the same whenever he has to     
spend what is not his own4  ,yes1 and   
they will be strong in him too4  ,the   
man1 then1 will be at war with himself2 
he will be two men1 and not one2 but1 in
 general1 his better desires will be    
found to prevail over his inferior ones4

  ,true4  ,for these reasons such an one
 will be more respectable than most     
people2 yet the true virtue of a        
unanimous and harmonious soul will flee 
far away and never come near him4  ,i   
should expect so4  ,and surely1 the     
miser individually will be an ignoble   
competitor in a ,state for any prize of 
victory1 or other object of honourable  
ambition2 he will not spend his money in
 the contest for glory2 so afraid is he 
of awakening his expensive appetites and
 inviting them to help and join in the  
struggle2 in true oligarchical fashion  
he fights with a small part only of his 
resources1 and the result commonly is   
that he loses the prize and saves his   
money4  ,very true4  ,can we any longer 
doubt1 then1 that the miser and         
money-maker answers to the oligarchical 
,state8  ,there can be no doubt4  ,next 
comes democracy2 of this the origin and 
nature have still to be considered by   
us2 and then we will enquire into the   
ways of the democratic man1 and bring   

him up for judgement4  ,that1 he said1  
is our method4  ,well1 ,i said1 and how 
does the change from oligarchy into     
democracy arise8  ,is it not on this    
wise8--,the good at which such a ,state 
alms is to become as rich as possible1 a
 desire which is insatiable8  ,what     
then8  ,the rulers1 being aware that    
their power rests upon their wealth1    
refuse to curtail by law the            
extravagance of the spendthrift youth   
because they gain by their ruin2 they   
take interest from them and buy up their
 estates and thus increase their own    
wealth and importance8  ,to be sure4    
,there can be no doubt that the love of 
wealth and the spirit of moderation     
cannot exist together in citizens of the
 same ,state to any considerable extent2
 one or the other will be disregarded4  
,that is tolerably clear4  ,and in      
oligarchical ,states1 from the general  
spread of carelessness and extravagance1
 men of good family have often been     
reduced to beggary8  ,yes1 often4  ,and 

still they remain in the city2 there    
they are1 ready to sting and fully      
armed1 and some of them owe money1 some 
have forfeited their citizenship2 a     
third class are in both predicaments2   
and they hate and conspire against those
 who have got their property1 and       
against everybody else1 and are eager   
for revolution4  ,that is true4  ,on the
 other hand1 the men of business1       
stooping as they walk1 and pretending   
not even to see those whom they have    
already ruined1 insert their sting--that
 is1 their money--into some one else who
 is not on his guard against them1 and  
recover the parent sum many times over  
multiplied into a family of children3   
and so they make drone and pauper to    
abound in the ,state4  ,yes1 he said1   
there are plenty of them--that is       
certain4  ,the evil blazes up like a    
fire2 and they will not extinguish it1  
either by restricting a man's use of his
 own property1 or by another remedy3    
,what other8  ,one which is the next    

best1 and has the advantage of          
compelling the citizens to look to their
 characters3--,let there be a general   
rule that every one shall enter into    
voluntary contracts at his own risk1 and
 there will be less of this scandalous  
money-making1 and the evils of which we 
were speaking will be greatly lessened  
in the ,state4  ,yes1 they will be      
greatly lessened4  ,at present the      
governors1 induced by the motives which 
,i have named1 treat their subjects     
badly2 while they and their adherents1  
especially the young men of the         
governing class1 are habituated to lead 
a life of luxury and idleness both of   
body and mind2 they do nothing1 and are 
incapable of resisting either pleasure  
or pain4  ,very true4  ,they themselves 
care only for making money1 and are as  
indifferent as the pauper to the        
cultivation of virtue4  ,yes1 quite as  
indifferent4  ,such is the state of     
affairs which prevails among them4  ,and
 often rulers and their subjects may    

come in one another's way1 whether on a 
pilgrimage or a march1 as               
fellow-soldiers or fellow-sailors2 aye1 
and they may observe the behaviour of   
each other in the very moment of        
danger--for where danger is1 there is no
 fear that the poor will be despised by 
the rich--and very likely the wiry      
sunburnt poor man may be placed in      
battle at the side of a wealthy one who 
has never spoilt his complexion and has 
plenty of superfluous flesh--when he    
sees such an one puffing and at his     
wit's end1 how can he avoid drawing the 
conclusion that men like him are only   
rich because no one has the courage to  
despoil them8  ,and when they meet in   
private will not people be saying to one
 another ',our warriors are not good for
 much'8  ,yes1 he said1 ,i am quite     
aware that this is their way of talking4
  ,and1 as in a body which is diseased  
the addition of a touch from without may
 bring on illness1 and sometimes even   
when there is no external provocation a 

commotion may arise within-in the same  
way wherever there is weakness in the   
,state there is also likely to be       
illness1 of which the occasions may be  
very slight1 the one party introducing  
from without their oligarchical1 the    
other their democratical allies1 and    
then the ,state falls sick1 and is at   
war with herself2 and may be at times   
distracted1 even when there is no       
external cause4  ,yes1 surely4  ,and    
then democracy comes into being after   
the poor have conquered their opponents1
 slaughtering some and banishing some1  
while to the remainder they give an     
equal share of freedom and power2 and   
this is the form of government in which 
the magistrates are commonly elected by 
lot4  ,yes1 he said1 that is the nature 
of democracy1 whether the revolution has
 been effected by arms1 or whether fear 
has caused the opposite party to        
withdraw4  ,and now what is their manner
 of life1 and what sort of a government 
have they8 for as the government is1    

such will be the man4  ,clearly1 he     
said4  ,in the first place1 are they not
 free2 and is not the city full of      
freedom and frankness--a man may say and
 do what he likes8  ',tis said so1 he   
replied4  ,and where freedom is1 the    
individual is clearly able to order for 
himself his own life as he pleases8     
,clearly4  ,then in this kind of ,state 
there will be the greatest variety of   
human natures8  ,there will4  ,this1    
then1 seems likely to be the fairest of 
,states1 being an embroidered robe which
 is spangled with every sort of flower4 
,and just as women and children think a 
variety of colours to be of all things  
most charming1 so there are many men to 
whom this ,state1 which is spangled with
 the manners and characters of mankind1 
will appear to be the fairest of        
,states4  ,yes4  ,yes1 my good ,sir1 and
 there will be no better in which to    
look for a government4  ,why8  ,because 
of the liberty which reigns there--they 
have a complete assortment of           

constitutions2 and he who has a mind to 
establish a ,state1 as we have been     
doing1 must go to a democracy as he     
would to a bazaar at which they sell    
them1 and pick out the one that suits   
him2 then1 when he has made his choice1 
he may found his ,state4  ,he will be   
sure to have patterns enough4  ,and     
there being no necessity1 ,i said1 for  
you to govern in this ,state1 even if   
you have the capacity1 or to be         
governed1 unless you like1 or go to war 
when the rest go to war1 or to be at    
peace when others are at peace1 unless  
you are so disposed--there being no     
necessity also1 because some law forbids
 you to hold office or be a dicast1 that
 you should not hold office or be a     
dicast1 if you have a fancy--is not this
 a way of life which for the moment is  
supremely delightful  ,for the moment1  
yes4  ,and is not their humanity to the 
condemned in some cases quite charming8 
,have you not observed how1 in a        
democracy1 many persons1 although they  

have been sentenced to death or exile1  
just stay where they are and walk about 
the world--the gentleman parades like a 
hero1 and nobody sees or cares8  ,yes1  
he replied1 many and many a one4  ,see  
too1 ,i said1 the forgiving spirit of   
democracy1 and the 'don't care' about   
trifles1 and the disregard which she    
shows of all the fine principles which  
we solemnly laid down at the foundation 
of the city--as when we said that1      
except in the case of some rarely gifted
 nature1 there never will be a good man 
who has not from his childhood been used
 to play amid things of beauty and make 
of them a joy and a study--how grandly  
does she trample all these fine notions 
of ours under her feet1 never giving a  
thought to the pursuits which make a    
statesman1 and promoting to honour any  
one who professes to be the people's    
friend4  ,yes1 she is of a noble spirit4
  ,these and other kindred              
characteristics are proper to democracy1
 which is a charming form of government1

 full of variety and disorder1 and      
dispensing a sort of equality to equals 
and unequals alike4  ,we know her well4 
,consider now1 ,i said1 what manner of  
man the individual is1 or rather        
consider1 as in the case of the ,state1 
how he comes into being4  ,very good1 he
 said4  ,is not this the way--he is the 
son of the miserly and oligarchical     
father who has trained him in his own   
habits8  ,exactly4  ,and1 like his      
father1 he keeps under by force the     
pleasures which are of the spending and 
not of the getting sort1 being those    
which are called unnecessary8           
,obviously4  ,would you like1 for the   
sake of clearness1 to distinguish which 
are the necessary and which are the     
unnecessary pleasures8  ,i should4  ,are
 not necessary pleasures those of which 
we cannot get rid1 and of which the     
satisfaction is a benefit to us8  ,and  
they are rightly so1 because we are     
framed by nature to desire both what is 
beneficial and what is necessary1 and   

cannot help it4  ,true4  ,we are not    
wrong therefore in calling them         
necessary8  ,we are not4  ,and the      
desires of which a man may get rid1 if  
he takes pains from his youth           
upwards--of which the presence1         
moreover1 does no good1 and in some     
cases the reverse of good--shall we not 
be right in saying that all these are   
unnecessary8  ,yes1 certainly4  ,suppose
 we select an example of either kind1 in
 order that we may have a general notion
 of them8  ,very good4  ,will not the   
desire of eating1 that is1 of simple    
food and condiments1 in so far as they  
are required for health and strength1 be
 of the necessary class8  ,that is what 
,i should suppose4  ,the pleasure of    
eating is necessary in two ways2 it does
 us good and it is essential to the     
continuance of life8  ,yes4  ,but the   
condiments are only necessary in so far 
as they are good for health8            
,certainly4  ,and the desire which goes 
beyond this1 or more delicate food1 or  

other luxuries1 which might generally be
 got rid of1 if controlled and trained  
in youth1 and is hurtful to the body1   
and hurtful to the soul in the pursuit  
of wisdom and virtue1 may be rightly    
called unnecessary8  ,very true4  ,may  
we not say that these desires spend1 and
 that the others make money because they
 conduce to production8  ,certainly4    
,and of the pleasures of love1 and all  
other pleasures1 the same holds good8   
,true4  ,and the drone of whom we spoke 
was he who was surfeited in pleasures   
and desires of this sort1 and was the   
slave of the unnecessary desires1       
whereas he who was subject o the        
necessary only was miserly and          
oligarchical8  ,very true4  ,again1 let 
us see how the democratical man grows   
out of the oligarchical3 the following1 
as ,i suspect1 is commonly the process4 
,what is the process8  ,when a young man
 who has been brought up as we were just
 now describing1 in a vulgar and miserly
 way1 has tasted drones' honey and has  

come to associate with fierce and crafty
 natures who are able to provide for him
 all sorts of refinements and varieties 
of pleasure--then1 as you may imagine1  
the change will begin of the            
oligarchical principle within him into  
the democratical8  ,inevitably4  ,and as
 in the city like was helping like1 and 
the change was effected by an alliance  
from without assisting one division of  
the citizens1 so too the young man is   
changed by a class of desires coming    
from without to assist the desires      
within him1 that which is and alike     
again helping that which is akin and    
alike8  ,certainly4  ,and if there be   
any ally which aids the oligarchical    
principle within him1 whether the       
influence of a father or of kindred1    
advising or rebuking him1 then there    
arises in his soul a faction and an     
opposite faction1 and he goes to war    
with himself4  ,it must be so4  ,and    
there are times when the democratical   
principle gives way to the oligarchical1

 and some of his desires die1 and others
 are banished2 a spirit of reverence    
enters into the young man's soul and    
order is restored4  ,yes1 he said1 that 
sometimes happens4  ,and then1 again1   
after the old desires have been driven  
out1 fresh ones spring up1 which are    
akin to them1 and because he1 their     
father1 does not know how to educate    
them1 wax fierce and numerous4  ,yes1 he
 said1 that is apt to be the way4  ,they
 draw him to his old associates1 and    
holding secret intercourse with them1   
breed and multiply in him4  ,very true4 
,at length they seize upon the citadel  
of the young man's soul1 which they     
perceive to be void of all              
accomplishments and fair pursuits and   
true words1 which make their abode in   
the minds of men who are dear to the    
gods1 and are their best guardians and  
sentinels4  ,none better4  ,false and   
boastful conceits and phrases mount     
upwards and take their place4  ,they are
 certain to do so4  ,and so the young   

man returns into the country of the     
lotus-eaters1 and takes up his dwelling 
there in the face of all men2 and if any
 help be sent by his friends to the     
oligarchical part of him1 the aforesaid 
vain conceits shut the gate of the      
king's fastness2 and they will neither  
allow the embassy itself to enter1      
private if private advisers offer the   
fatherly counsel of the aged will they  
listen to them or receive them4  ,there 
is a battle and they gain the day1 and  
then modesty1 which they call silliness1
 is ignominiously thrust into exile by  
them1 and temperance1 which they        
nickname unmanliness1 is trampled in the
 mire and cast forth2 they persuade men 
that moderation and orderly expenditure 
are vulgarity and meanness1 and so1 by  
the help of a rabble of evil appetites1 
they drive them beyond the border4      
,yes1 with a will4  ,and when they have 
emptied and swept clean the soul of him 
who is now in their power and who is    
being initiated by them in great        

mysteries1 the next thing is to bring   
back to their house insolence and       
anarchy and waste and impudence in      
bright array having garlands on their   
heads1 and a great company with them1   
hymning their praises and calling them  
by sweet names2 insolence they term     
breeding1 and anarchy liberty1 and waste
 magnificence1 and impudence courage4   
,and so the young man passes out of his 
original nature1 which was trained in   
the school of necessity1 into the       
freedom and libertinism of useless and  
unnecessary pleasures4  ,yes1 he said1  
the change in him is visible enough4    
,after this he lives on1 spending his   
money and labour and time on unnecessary
 pleasures quite as much as on necessary
 ones2 but if he be fortunate1 and is   
not too much disordered in his wits1    
when years have elapsed1 and the heyday 
of passion is over--supposing that he   
then re-admits into the city some part  
of the exiled virtues1 and does not     
wholly give himself up to their         

successors--in that case he balances his
 pleasures and lives in a sort of       
equilibrium1 putting the government of  
himself into the hands of the one which 
comes first and wins the turn2 and when 
he has had enough of that1 then into the
 hands of another2 he despises none of  
them but encourages them all equally4   
,very true1 he said4  ,neither does he  
receive or let pass into the fortress   
any true word of advice2 if any one says
 to him that some pleasures are the     
satisfactions of good and noble desires1
 and others of evil desires1 and that he
 ought to use and honour some and       
chastise and master the others--whenever
 this is repeated to him he shakes his  
head and says that they are all alike1  
and that one is as good as another4     
,yes1 he said2 that is the way with him4
  ,yes1 ,i said1 he lives from day to   
day indulging the appetite of the hour2 
and sometimes he is lapped in drink and 
strains of the flute2 then he becomes a 
water-drinker1 and tries to get thin2   

then he takes a turn at gymnastics2     
sometimes idling and neglecting         
everything1 then once more living the   
life of a philosopher2 often he-is busy 
with politics1 and starts to his feet   
and says and does whatever comes into   
his head2 and1 if he is emulous of any  
one who is a warrior1 off he is in that 
direction1 or of men of business1 once  
more in that4  ,his life has neither law
 nor order2 and this distracted         
existence he terms joy and bliss and    
freedom2 and so he goes on4  ,yes1 he   
replied1 he is all liberty and equality4
  ,yes1 ,i said2 his life is motley and 
manifold and an epitome of the lives of 
many2--he answers to the ,state which we
 described as fair and spangled4  ,and  
many a man and many a woman will take   
him for their pattern1 and many a       
constitution and many an example of     
manners is contained in him4  ,just so4 
,let him then be set over against       
democracy2 he may truly be called the   
democratic man4  ,let that be his place1

 he said4  ,last of all comes the most  
beautiful of all1 man and ,state alike1 
tyranny and the tyrant2 these we have   
now to consider4  ,quite true1 he said4 
,say then1 my friend1 in what manner    
does tyranny arise8--that it has a      
democratic origin is evident4  ,clearly4
  ,and does not tyranny spring from     
democracy in the same manner as         
democracy from oligarchy--,i mean1 after
 a sort8  ,how8  ,the good which        
oligarchy proposed to itself and the    
means by which it was maintained was    
excess of wealth--am ,i not right8      
,yes4  ,and the insatiable desire of    
wealth and the neglect of all other     
things for the sake of money-getting was
 also the ruin of oligarchy8  ,true4    
,and democracy has her own good1 of     
which the insatiable desire brings her  
to dissolution8  ,what good8  ,freedom1 
,i replied2 which1 as they tell you in a
 democracy1 is the glory of the         
,state--and that therefore in a         
democracy alone will the freeman of     

nature deign to dwell4  ,yes2 the saying
 is in everybody's mouth4  ,i was going 
to observe1 that the insatiable desire  
of this and the neglect of other things 
introduces the change in democracy1     
which occasions a demand for tyranny4   
,how so8  ,when a democracy which is    
thirsting for freedom has evil          
cupbearers presiding over the feast1 and
 has drunk too deeply of the strong wine
 of freedom1 then1 unless her rulers are
 very amenable and give a plentiful     
draught1 she calls them to account and  
punishes them1 and says that they are   
cursed oligarchs4  ,yes1 he replied1 a  
very common occurrence4  ,yes1 ,i said2 
and loyal citizens are insultingly      
termed by her slaves who hug their      
chains and men of naught2 she would have
 subjects who are like rulers1 and      
rulers who are like subjects3 these are 
men after her own heart1 whom she       
praises and honours both in private and 
public4 ,now1 in such a ,state1 can     
liberty have any limit8  ,certainly not4

  ,by degrees the anarchy finds a way   
into private houses1 and ends by getting
 among the animals and infecting them4  
,how do you mean8  ,i mean that the     
father grows accustomed to descend to   
the level of his sons and to fear them1 
and the son is on a level with his      
father1 he having no respect or         
reverence for either of his parents2 and
 this is his freedom1 and metic is equal
 with the citizen and the citizen with  
the metic1 and the stranger is quite as 
good as either4  ,yes1 he said1 that is 
the way4  ,and these are not the only   
evils1 ,i said--there are several lesser
 ones3 ,in such a state of society the  
master fears and flatters his scholars1 
and the scholars despise their masters  
and tutors2 young and old are all alike2
 and the young man is on a level with   
the old1 and is ready to compete with   
him in word or deed2 and old men        
condescend to the young and are full of 
pleasantry and gaiety2 they are loth to 
be thought morose and authoritative1 and

 therefore they adopt the manners of the
 young4  ,quite true1 he said4  ,the    
last extreme of popular liberty is when 
the slave bought with money1 whether    
male or female1 is just as free as his  
or her purchaser2 nor must ,i forget to 
tell of the liberty and equality of the 
two sexes in relation to each other4    
,why not1 as ,aeschylus says1 utter the 
word which rises to our lips8  ,that is 
what ,i am doing1 ,i replied2 and ,i    
must add that no one who does not know  
would believe1 how much greater is the  
liberty which the animals who are under 
the dominion of man have in a democracy 
than in any other ,state3  for truly1   
the she-dogs1 as the proverb says1 are  
as good as their she-mistresses1 and the
 horses and asses have a way of marching
 along with all the rights and dignities
 of freemen2 and they will run at       
anybody who comes in their way if he    
does not leave the road clear for them3 
and all things are just ready to burst  
with liberty4  ,when ,i take a country  

walk1 he said1 ,i often experience what 
you describe4  ,you and ,i have dreamed 
the same thing4  ,and above all1 ,i     
said1 and as the result of all1 see how 
sensitive the citizens become2 they     
chafe impatiently at the least touch of 
authority and at length1 as you know1   
they cease to care even for the laws1   
written or unwritten2 they will have no 
one over them4  ,yes1 he said1 ,i know  
it too well4  ,such1 my friend1 ,i said1
 is the fair and glorious beginning out 
of which springs tyranny4  ,glorious    
indeed1 he said4  ,but what is the next 
step8  ,the ruin of oligarchy is the    
ruin of democracy2 the same disease     
magnified and intensified by liberty    
overmasters democracy--the truth being  
that the excessive increase of anything 
often causes a reaction in the opposite 
direction2 and this is the case not only
 in the seasons and in vegetable and    
animal life1 but above all in forms of  
government4  ,true4  ,the excess of     
liberty1 whether in ,states or          

individuals1 seems only to pass into    
excess of slavery4  ,yes1 the natural   
order4  ,and so tyranny naturally arises
 out of democracy1 and the most         
aggravated form of tyranny and slavery  
out of the most extreme form of liberty8
  ,as we might expect4  ,that1 however1 
was not1 as ,i believe1 your            
question-you rather desired to know what
 is that disorder which is generated    
alike in oligarchy and democracy1 and is
 the ruin of both8  ,just so1 he        
replied4  ,well1 ,i said1 ,i meant to   
refer to the class of idle spendthrifts1
 of whom the more courageous are        
the-leaders and the more timid the      
followers1 the same whom we were        
comparing to drones1 some stingless1 and
 others having stings4  ,a very just    
comparison4  ,these two classes are the 
plagues of every city in which they are 
generated1 being what phlegm and bile   
are to the body4  ,and the good         
physician and lawgiver of the ,state    
ought1 like the wise bee-master1 to keep

 them at a distance and prevent1 if     
possible1 their ever coming in2 and if  
they have anyhow found a way in1 then he
 should have them and their cells cut   
out as speedily as possible4  ,yes1 by  
all means1 he said4  ,then1 in order    
that we may see clearly what we are     
doing1 let us imagine democracy to be   
divided1 as indeed it is1 into three    
classes2 for in the first place freedom 
creates rather more drones in the       
democratic than there were in the       
oligarchical ,state4  ,that is true4    
,and in the democracy they are certainly
 more intensified4  ,how so8  ,because  
in the oligarchical ,state they are     
disqualified and driven from office1 and
 therefore they cannot train or gather  
strength2 whereas in a democracy they   
are almost the entire ruling power1 and 
while the keener sort speak and act1 the
 rest keep buzzing about the bema and do
 not suffer a word to be said on the    
other side2 hence in democracies almost 
everything is managed by the drones4    

,very true1 he said4  ,then there is    
another class which is always being     
severed from the mass4  ,what is that8  
,they are the orderly class1 which in a 
nation of traders sure to be the        
richest4  ,naturally so4  ,they are the 
most squeezable persons and yield the   
largest amount of honey to the drones4  
,why1 he said1 there is little to be    
squeezed out of people who have little4 
,and this is called the wealthy class1  
and the drones feed upon them4  ,that is
 pretty much the case1 he said4  ,the   
people are a third class1 consisting of 
those who work with their own hands2    
they are not politicians1 and have not  
much to live upon4 ,this1 when          
assembled1 is the largest and most      
powerful class in a democracy4  ,true1  
he said2 but then the multitude is      
seldom willing to congregate unless they
 get a little honey4  ,and do they not  
share8  ,i said4  ,do not their leaders 
deprive the rich of their estates and   
distribute them among the people2 at the

 same time taking care to reserve the   
larger part for themselves8  ,why1 yes1 
he said1 to that extent the people do   
share4  ,and the persons whose property 
is taken from them are compelled to     
defend themselves before the people as  
they best can8  ,what else can they do8 
,and then1 although they may have no    
desire of change1 the others charge them
 with plotting against the people and   
being friends of oligarchy8 ,true4  ,and
 the end is that when they see the      
people1 not of their own accord1 but    
through ignorance1 and because they are 
deceived by informers1 seeking to do    
them wrong1 then at last they are forced
 to become oligarchs in reality2 they do
 not wish to be1 but the sting of the   
drones torments them and breeds         
revolution in them4  ,that is exactly   
the truth4  ,then come impeachments and 
judgments and trials of one another4    
,true4  ,the people have always some    
champion whom they set over them and    
nurse into greatness4  ,yes1 that is    

their way4  ,this and no other is the   
root from which a tyrant springs2 when  
he first appears above ground he is a   
protector4  ,yes1 that is quite clear4  
,how then does a protector begin to     
change into a tyrant8  ,clearly when he 
does what the man is said to do in the  
tale of the ,arcadian temple of ,lycaean
 ,zeus4  ,what tale8  ,the tale is that 
he who has tasted the entrails of a     
single human victim minced up with the  
entrails of other victims is destined to
 become a wolf4  ,did you never hear it8
  ,oh1 yes4  ,and the protector of the  
people is like him2 having a mob        
entirely at his disposal1 he is not     
restrained from shedding the blood of   
kinsmen2 by the favourite method of     
false accusation he brings them into    
court and murders them1 making the life 
of man to disappear1 and with unholy    
tongue and lips tasting the blood of his
 fellow citizen2 some he kills and      
others he banishes1 at the same time    
hinting at the abolition of debts and   

partition of lands3  and after this1    
what will be his destiny8  ,must he not 
either perish at the hands of his       
enemies1 or from being a man become a   
wolf--that is1 a tyrant8  ,inevitably4  
,this1 ,i said1 is he who begins to make
 a party against the rich8  ,the same4  
,after a while he is driven out1 but    
comes back1 in spite of his enemies1 a  
tyrant full grown4  ,that is clear4     
,and if they are unable to expel him1 or
 to get him condemned to death by a     
public accusation1 they conspire to     
assassinate him4  ,yes1 he said1 that is
 their usual way4  ,then comes the      
famous request for a bodyguard1 which is
 the device of all those who have got   
thus far in their tyrannical            
career--',let not the people's friend1' 
as they say1 'be lost to them4'         
,exactly4  ,the people readily assent2  
all their fears are for him--they have  
none for themselves4  ,very true4  ,and 
when a man who is wealthy and is also   
accused of being an enemy of the people 

sees this1 then1 my friend1 as the      
oracle said to ,croesus1      ,by pebbly
 ,hermus' shore he flees and rests not  
and is not     ashamed to be a coward4  
,and quite right too1 said he1 for if he
 were1 he would never be ashamed again4 
,but if he is caught he dies4  ,of      
course4  ,and he1 the protector of whom 
we spoke1 is to be seen1 not 'larding   
the plain' with his bulk1 but himself   
the overthrower of many1 standing up in 
the chariot of ,state with the reins in 
his hand1 no longer protector1 but      
tyrant absolute4  ,no doubt1 he said4   
,and now let us consider the happiness  
of the man1 and also of the ,state in   
which a creature like him is generated4 
,yes1 he said1 let us consider that4    
,at first1 in the early days of his     
power1 he is full of smiles1 and he     
salutes every one whom he meets2--he to 
be called a tyrant1 who is making       
promises in public and also in private6 
liberating debtors1 and distributing    
land to the people and his followers1   

and wanting to be so kind and good to   
every one6  ,of course1 he said4  ,but  
when he has disposed of foreign enemies 
by conquest or treaty1 and there is     
nothing to fear from them1 then he is   
always stirring up some war or other1 in
 order that the people may require a    
leader4  ,to be sure4  ,has he not also 
another object1 which is that they may  
be impoverished by payment of taxes1 and
 thus compelled to devote themselves to 
their daily wants and therefore less    
likely to conspire against him8         
,clearly4  ,and if any of them are      
suspected by him of having notions of   
freedom1 and of resistance to his       
authority1 he will have a good pretext  
for destroying them by placing them at  
the mercy of the enemy2 and for all     
these reasons the tyrant must be always 
getting up a war4  ,he must4  ,now he   
begins to grow unpopular4  ,a necessary 
result4  ,then some of those who joined 
in setting him up1 and who are in power1
 speak their minds to him and to one    

another1 and the more courageous of them
 cast in his teeth what is being done4  
,yes1 that may be expected4  ,and the   
tyrant1 if he means to rule1 must get   
rid of them2 he cannot stop while he has
 a friend or an enemy who is good for   
anything4  ,he cannot4  ,and therefore  
he must look about him and see who is   
valiant1 who is high-minded1 who is     
wise1 who is wealthy2 happy man1 he is  
the enemy of them all1 and must seek    
occasion against them whether he will or
 no1 until he has made a purgation of   
the ,state4  ,yes1 he said1 and a rare  
purgation4  ,yes1 ,i said1 not the sort 
of purgation which the physicians make  
of the body2 for they take away the     
worse and leave the better part1 but he 
does the reverse4  ,if he is to rule1 ,i
 suppose that he cannot help himself4   
,what a blessed alternative1 ,i         
said3--to be compelled to dwell only    
with the many bad1 and to be by them    
hated1 or not to live at all6  ,yes1    
that is the alternative4  ,and the more 

detestable his actions are to the       
citizens the more satellites and the    
greater devotion in them will he        
require8  ,certainly4  ,and who are the 
devoted band1 and where will he procure 
them8  ,they will flock to him1 he said1
 of their own accord1 if lie pays them4 
,by the dog6  ,i said1 here are more    
drones1 of every sort and from every    
land4  ,yes1 he said1 there are4  ,but  
will he not desire to get them on the   
spot8  ,how do you mean8  ,he will rob  
the citizens of their slaves2 he will   
then set them free and enrol them in his
 bodyguard4  ,to be sure1 he said2 and  
he will be able to trust them best of   
all4  ,what a blessed creature1 ,i said1
 must this tyrant be2 he has put to     
death the others and has these for his  
trusted friends4  ,yes1 he said2 they   
are quite of his sort4  ,yes1 ,i said1  
and these are the new citizens whom he  
has called into existence1 who admire   
him and are his companions1 while the   
good hate and avoid him4  ,of course4   

,verily1 then1 tragedy is a wise thing  
and ,euripides a great tragedian4  ,why 
so8  ,why1 because he is the author of  
the pregnant saying1      ,tyrants are  
wise by living with the wise2  and he   
clearly meant to say that they are the  
wise whom the tyrant makes his          
companions4  ,yes1 he said1 and he also 
praises tyranny as godlike2 and many    
other things of the same kind are said  
by him and by the other poets4  ,and    
therefore1 ,i said1 the tragic poets    
being wise men will forgive us and any  
others who live after our manner if we  
do not receive them into our ,state1    
because they are the eulogists of       
tyranny4  ,yes1 he said1 those who have 
the wit will doubtless forgive us4  ,but
 they will continue to go to other      
cities and attract mobs1 and hire voices
 fair and loud and persuasive1 and draw 
the cities over to tyrannies and        
democracies4  ,very true4  ,moreover1   
they are paid for this and receive      
honour--the greatest honour1 as might be

 expected1 from tyrants1 and the next   
greatest from democracies2 but the      
higher they ascend our constitution     
hill1 the more their reputation fails1  
and seems unable from shortness of      
breath to proceed further4  ,true4  ,but
 we are wandering from the subject3     
,let us therefore return and enquire how
 the tyrant will maintain that fair and 
numerous and various and ever-changing  
army of his4  ,if1 he said1 there are   
sacred treasures in the city1 he will   
confiscate and spend them2 and in so far
 as the fortunes of attainted persons   
may suffice1 he will be able to diminish
 the taxes which he would otherwise have
 to impose upon the people4  ,and when  
these fail8  ,why1 clearly1 he said1    
then he and his boon companions1 whether
 male or female1 will be maintained out 
of his father's estate4  ,you mean to   
say that the people1 from whom he has   
derived his being1 will maintain him and
 his companions8  ,yes1 he said2 they   
cannot help themselves4  ,but what if   

the people fly into a passion1 and aver 
that a grown-up son ought not to be     
supported by his father1 but that the   
father should be supported by the son8  
,the father did not bring him into      
being1 or settle him in life1 in order  
that when his son became a man he should
 himself be the servant of his own      
servants and should support him and his 
rabble of slaves and companions2 but    
that his son should protect him1 and    
that by his help he might be emancipated
 from the government of the rich and    
aristocratic1 as they are termed4  ,and 
so he bids him and his companions       
depart1 just as any other father might  
drive out of the house a riotous son and
 his undesirable associates4  ,by       
heaven1 he said1 then the parent will   
discover what a monster he has been     
fostering in his bosom2 and1 when he    
wants to drive him out1 he will find    
that he is weak and his son strong4     
,why1 you do not mean to say that the   
tyrant will use violence8  ,what6 beat  

his father if he opposes him8  ,yes1 he 
will1 having first disarmed him4  ,then 
he is a parricide1 and a cruel guardian 
of an aged parent2 and this is real     
tyranny1 about which there can be no    
longer a mistake3 as the saying is1 the 
people who would escape the smoke which 
is the slavery of freemen1 has fallen   
into the fire which is the tyranny of   
slaves4  ,thus liberty1 getting out of  
all order and reason1 passes into the   
harshest and bitterest form of slavery4 
,true1 he said4  ,very well2 and may we 
not rightly say that we have            
sufficiently discussed the nature of    
tyranny1 and the manner of the          
transition from democracy to tyranny8   
,yes1 quite enough1 he said4     ,,book 
,,ix   ,,socrates - ,,adeimantus  ,,last
 of all comes the tyrannical man2 about 
whom we have once more to ask1 how is he
 formed out of the democratical8 and how
 does he live1 in happiness or in       
misery8  ,yes1 he said1 he is the only  
one remaining4  ,there is1 however1 ,i  

said1 a previous question which remains 
unanswered4  ,what question8  ,i do not 
think that we have adequately determined
 the nature and number of the appetites1
 and until this is accomplished the     
enquiry will always be confused4  ,well1
 he said1 it is not too late to supply  
the omission4  ,very true1 ,i said2 and 
observe the point which ,i want to      
understand3 ,certain of the unnecessary 
pleasures and appetites ,i conceive to  
be unlawful2 every one appears to have  
them1 but in some persons they are      
controlled by the laws and by reason1   
and the better desires prevail over     
them-either they are wholly banished or 
they become few and weak2 while in the  
case of others they are stronger1 and   
there are more of them4  ,which         
appetites do you mean8  ,i mean those   
which are awake when the reasoning and  
human and ruling power is asleep2 then  
the wild beast within us1 gorged with   
meat or drink1 starts up and having     
shaken off sleep1 goes forth to satisfy 

his desires2 and there is no conceivable
 folly or crime--not excepting incest or
 any other unnatural union1 or          
parricide1 or the eating of forbidden   
food--which at such a time1 when he has 
parted company with all shame and sense1
 a man may not be ready to commit4      
,most true1 he said4  ,but when a man's 
pulse is healthy and temperate1 and when
 before going to sleep he has awakened  
his rational powers1 and fed them on    
noble thoughts and enquiries1 collecting
 himself in meditation2 after having    
first indulged his appetites neither too
 much nor too little1 but just enough to
 lay them to sleep1 and prevent them and
 their enjoyments and pains from        
interfering with the higher             
principle--which he leaves in the       
solitude of pure abstraction1 free to   
contemplate and aspire to the knowledge 
of the unknown1 whether in past1        
present1 or future3  when again he has  
allayed the passionate element1 if he   
has a quarrel against any one--,i say1  

when1 after pacifying the two irrational
 principles1 he rouses up the third1    
which is reason1 before he takes his    
rest1 then1 as you know1 he attains     
truth most nearly1 and is least likely  
to be the sport of fantastic and lawless
 visions4  ,i quite agree4  ,in saying  
this ,i have been running into a        
digression2 but the point which ,i      
desire to note is that in all of us1    
even in good men1 there is a lawless    
wild-beast nature1 which peers out in   
sleep4  ,pray1 consider whether ,i am   
right1 and you agree with me4  ,yes1 ,i 
agree4  ,and now remember the character 
which we attributed to the democratic   
man4  ,he was supposed from his youth   
upwards to have been trained under a    
miserly parent1 who encouraged the      
saving appetites in him1 but            
discountenanced the unnecessary1 which  
aim only at amusement and ornament8     
,true4  ,and then he got into the       
company of a more refined1 licentious   
sort of people1 and taking to all their 

wanton ways rushed into the opposite    
extreme from an abhorrence of his       
father's meanness4  ,at last1 being a   
better man than his corruptors1 he was  
drawn in both directions until he halted
 midway and led a life1 not of vulgar   
and slavish passion1 but of what he     
deemed moderate indulgence in various   
pleasures4  ,after this manner the      
democrat was generated out of the       
oligarch8  ,yes1 he said2 that was our  
view of him1 and is so still4  ,and now1
 ,i said1 years will have passed away1  
and you must conceive this man1 such as 
he is1 to have a son1 who is brought up 
in his father's principles4  ,i can     
imagine him4  ,then you must further    
imagine the same thing to happen to the 
son which has already happened to the   
father3--he is drawn into a perfectly   
lawless life1 which by his seducers is  
termed perfect liberty2 and his father  
and friends take part with his moderate 
desires1 and the opposite party assist  
the opposite ones4  ,as soon as these   

dire magicians and tyrant-makers find   
that they are losing their hold on him1 
they contrive to implant in him a master
 passion1 to be lord over his idle and  
spendthrift lusts--a sort of monstrous  
winged drone--that is the only image    
which will adequately describe him4     
,yes1 he said1 that is the only adequate
 image of him4  ,and when his other     
lusts1 amid clouds of incense and       
perfumes and garlands and wines1 and all
 the pleasures of a dissolute life1 now 
let loose1 come buzzing around him1     
nourishing to the utmost the sting of   
desire which they implant in his        
drone-like nature1 then at last this    
lord of the soul1 having ,madness for   
the captain of his guard1 breaks out    
into a frenzy3  and if he finds in      
himself any good opinions or appetites  
in process of formation1 and there is in
 him any sense of shame remaining1 to   
these better principles he puts an end1 
and casts them forth until he has purged
 away temperance and brought in madness 

to the full4  ,yes1 he said1 that is the
 way in which the tyrannical man is     
generated4  ,and is not this the reason 
why of old love has been called a       
tyrant8  ,i should not wonder4          
,further1 ,i said1 has not a drunken man
 also the spirit of a tyrant8  ,he has4 
,and you know that a man who is deranged
 and not right in his mind1 will fancy  
that he is able to rule1 not only over  
men1 but also over the gods8  ,that he  
will4  ,and the tyrannical man in the   
true sense of the word comes into being 
when1 either under the influence of     
nature1 or habit1 or both1 he becomes   
drunken1 lustful1 passionate8  ,o my    
friend1 is not that so8  ,assuredly4    
,such is the man and such is his origin4
  ,and next1 how does he live8          
,suppose1 as people facetiously say1 you
 were to tell me4  ,i imagine1 ,i said1 
at the next step in his progress1 that  
there will be feasts and carousals and  
revellings and courtezans1 and all that 
sort of thing2 ,love is the lord of the 

house within him1 and orders all the    
concerns of his soul4  ,that is certain4
  ,yes2 and every day and every night   
desires grow up many and formidable1 and
 their demands are many4  ,they are     
indeed1 he said4  ,his revenues1 if he  
has any1 are soon spent4  ,true4  ,then 
comes debt and the cutting down of his  
property4  ,of course4  ,when he has    
nothing left1 must not his desires1     
crowding in the nest like young ravens1 
be crying aloud for food2 and he1 goaded
 on by them1 and especially by love     
himself1 who is in a manner the captain 
of them1 is in a frenzy1 and would fain 
discover whom he can defraud or despoil 
of his property1 in order that he may   
gratify them8  ,yes1 that is sure to be 
the case4  ,he must have money1 no      
matter how1 if he is to escape horrid   
pains and pangs4  ,he must4  ,and as in 
himself there was a succession of       
pleasures1 and the new got the better of
 the old and took away their rights1 so 
he being younger will claim to have more

 than his father and his mother1 and if 
he has spent his own share of the       
property1 he will take a slice of       
theirs4  ,no doubt he will4  ,and if his
 parents will not give way1 then he will
 try first of all to cheat and deceive  
them4  ,very true4  ,and if he fails1   
then he will use force and plunder them4
  ,yes1 probably4  ,and if the old man  
and woman fight for their own1 what     
then1 my friend8 ,will the creature feel
 any compunction at tyrannizing over    
them8  ,nay1 he said1 ,i should not feel
 at all comfortable about his parents4  
,but1 ,o heavens6  ,adeimantus1 on      
account of some newfangled love of a    
harlot1 who is anything but a necessary 
connection1 can you believe that he     
would strike the mother who is his      
ancient friend and necessary to his very
 existence1 and would place her under   
the authority of the other1 when she is 
brought under the same roof with her2 or
 that1 under like circumstances1 he     
would do the same to his withered old   

father1 first and most indispensable of 
friends1 for the sake of some newly     
found blooming youth who is the reverse 
of indispensable8  ,yes1 indeed1 he     
said2 ,i believe that he would4  ,truly1
 then1 ,i said1 a tyrannical son is a   
blessing to his father and mother4  ,he 
is indeed1 he replied4  ,he first takes 
their property1 and when that falls1 and
 pleasures are beginning to swarm in the
 hive of his soul1 then he breaks into a
 house1 or steals the garments of some  
nightly wayfarer2 next he proceeds to   
clear a temple4  ,meanwhile the old     
opinions which he had when a child1 and 
which gave judgment about good and evil1
 are overthrown by those others which   
have just been emancipated1 and are now 
the bodyguard of love and share his     
empire4  ,these in his democratic days1 
when he was still subject to the laws   
and to his father1 were only let loose  
in the dreams of sleep4  ,but now that  
he is under the dominion of love1 he    
becomes always and in waking reality    

what he was then very rarely and in a   
dream only2 he will commit the foulest  
murder1 or eat forbidden food1 or be    
guilty of any other horrid act4  ,love  
is his tyrant1 and lives lordly in him  
and lawlessly1 and being himself a king1
 leads him on1 as a tyrant leads a      
,state1 to the performance of any       
reckless deed by which he can maintain  
himself and the rabble of his           
associates1 whether those whom evil     
communications have brought in from     
without1 or those whom he himself has   
allowed to break loose within him by    
reason of a similar evil nature in      
himself4 ,have we not here a picture of 
his way of life8  ,yes1 indeed1 he said4
  ,and if there are only a few of them  
in the ,state1 the rest of the people   
are well disposed1 they go away and     
become the bodyguard or mercenary       
soldiers of some other tyrant who may   
probably want them for a war2 and if    
there is no war1 they stay at home and  
do many little pieces of mischief in the

 city4  ,what sort of mischief8  ,for   
example1 they are the thieves1 burglars1
 cutpurses1 footpads1 robbers of        
temples1 man-stealers of the community2 
or if they are able to speak they turn  
informers1 and bear false witness1 and  
take bribes4  ,a small catalogue of     
evils1 even if the perpetrators of them 
are few in number4  ,yes1 ,i said2 but  
small and great are comparative terms1  
and all these things1 in the misery and 
evil which they inflict upon a ,state1  
do not come within a thousand miles of  
the tyrant2 when this noxious class and 
their followers grow numerous and become
 conscious of their strength1 assisted  
by the infatuation of the people1 they  
choose from among themselves the one who
 has most of the tyrant in his own soul1
 and him they create their tyrant4      
,yes1 he said1 and he will be the most  
fit to be a tyrant4  ,if the people     
yield1 well and good2 but if they resist
 him1 as he began by beating his own    
father and mother1 so now1 if he has the

 power1 he beats them1 and will keep his
 dear old fatherland or motherland1 as  
the ,cretans say1 in subjection to his  
young retainers whom he has introduced  
to be their rulers and masters4  ,this  
is the end of his passions and desires4 
,exactly4  ,when such men are only      
private individuals and before they get 
power1 this is their character2 they    
associate entirely with their own       
flatterers or ready tools2 or if they   
want anything from anybody1 they in     
their turn are equally ready to bow down
 before them3 they profess every sort of
 affection for them2 but when they have 
gained their point they know them no    
more4  ,yes1 truly4  ,they are always   
either the masters or servants and never
 the friends of anybody2 the tyrant     
never tastes of true freedom or         
friendship4  ,certainly not4  ,and may  
we not rightly call such men            
treacherous8  ,no question4  ,also they 
are utterly unjust1 if we were right in 
our notion of justice8  ,yes1 he said1  

and we were perfectly right4  ,let us   
then sum up in a word1 ,i said1 the     
character of the worst man3 he is the   
waking reality of what we dreamed4      
,most true4  ,and this is he who being  
by nature most of a tyrant bears rule1  
and the longer he lives the more of a   
tyrant he becomes4  ,,socrates -        
,,glaucon  ,that is certain1 said       
,glaucon1 taking his turn to answer4    
,and will not he who has been shown to  
be the wickedest1 be also the most      
miserable8 and he who has tyrannized    
longest and most1 most continually and  
truly miserable2 although this may not  
be the opinion of men in general8  ,yes1
 he said1 inevitably4  ,and must not the
 tyrannical man be like the tyrannical1 
,state1 and the democratical man like   
the democratical ,state2 and the same of
 the others8  ,certainly4  ,and as      
,state is to ,state in virtue and       
happiness1 so is man in relation to man8
  ,to be sure4  ,then comparing our     
original city1 which was under a king1  

and the city which is under a tyrant1   
how do they stand as to virtue8  ,they  
are the opposite extremes1 he said1 for 
one is the very best and the other is   
the very worst4  ,there can be no       
mistake1 ,i said1 as to which is which1 
and therefore ,i will at once enquire   
whether you would arrive at a similar   
decision about their relative happiness 
and misery4  ,and here we must not allow
 ourselves to be panic-stricken at the  
apparition of the tyrant1 who is only a 
unit and may perhaps have a few         
retainers about him2 but let us go as we
 ought into every corner of the city and
 look all about1 and then we will give  
our opinion4  ,a fair invitation1 he    
replied2 and ,i see1 as every one must1 
that a tyranny is the wretchedest form  
of government1 and the rule of a king   
the happiest4  ,and in estimating the   
men too1 may ,i not fairly make a like  
request1 that ,i should have a judge    
whose mind can enter into and see       
through human nature8  ,he must not be  

like a child who looks at the outside   
and is dazzled at the pompous aspect    
which the tyrannical nature assumes to  
the beholder1 but let him be one who has
 a clear insight4  ,may ,i suppose that 
the judgment is given in the hearing of 
us all by one who is able to judge1 and 
has dwelt in the same place with him1   
and been present at his dally life and  
known him in his family relations1 where
 he may be seen stripped of his tragedy 
attire1 and again in the hour of public 
danger--he shall tell us about the      
happiness and misery of the tyrant when 
compared with other men8  ,that again1  
he said1 is a very fair proposal4       
,shall ,i assume that we ourselves are  
able and experienced judges and have    
before now met with such a person8  ,we 
shall then have some one who will answer
 our enquiries4  ,by all means4  ,let me
 ask you not to forget the parallel of  
the individual and the ,state2 bearing  
this in mind1 and glancing in turn from 
one to the other of them1 will you tell 

me their respective conditions8  ,what  
do you mean8 he asked4  ,beginning with 
the ,state1 ,i replied1 would you say   
that a city which is governed by a      
tyrant is free or enslaved8  ,no city1  
he said1 can be more completely         
enslaved4  ,and yet1 as you see1 there  
are freemen as well as masters in such a
 ,state8  ,yes1 he said1 ,i see that    
there are--a few2 but the people1       
speaking generally1 and the best of     
them1 are miserably degraded and        
enslaved4  ,then if the man is like the 
,state1 ,i said1 must not the same rule 
prevail8 his soul is full of meanness   
and vulgarity--the best elements in him 
are enslaved2 and there is a small      
ruling part1 which is also the worst and
 maddest4  ,inevitably4  ,and would you 
say that the soul of such an one is the 
soul of a freeman1 or of a slave8  ,he  
has the soul of a slave1 in my opinion4 
,and the ,state which is enslaved under 
a tyrant is utterly incapable of acting 
voluntarily8  ,utterly incapable4  ,and 

also the soul which is under a tyrant   
7,i am speaking of the soul taken as a  
whole7 is least capable of doing what   
she desires2 there is a gadfly which    
goads her1 and she is full of trouble   
and remorse8  ,certainly4  ,and is the  
city which is under a tyrant rich or    
poor8  ,poor4  ,and the tyrannical soul 
must be always poor and insatiable8     
,true4  ,and must not such a ,state and 
such a man be always full of fear8      
,yes1 indeed4  ,is there any ,state in  
which you will find more of lamentation 
and sorrow and groaning and pain8       
,certainly not4  ,and is there any man  
in whom you will find more of this sort 
of misery than in the tyrannical man1   
who is in a fury of passions and        
desires8  ,impossible4  ,reflecting upon
 these and similar evils1 you held the  
tyrannical ,state to be the most        
miserable of ,states8  ,and ,i was      
right1 he said4  ,certainly1 ,i said4   
,and when you see the same evils in the 
tyrannical man1 what do you say of him8 

,i say that he is by far the most       
miserable of all men4  ,there1 ,i said1 
,i think that you are beginning to go   
wrong4  ,what do you mean8  ,i do not   
think that he has as yet reached the    
utmost extreme of misery4  ,then who is 
more miserable8  ,one of whom ,i am     
about to speak4  ,who is that8  ,he who 
is of a tyrannical nature1 and instead  
of leading a private life has been      
cursed with the further misfortune of   
being a public tyrant4  ,from what has  
been said1 ,i gather that you are right4
  ,yes1 ,i replied1 but in this high    
argument you should be a little more    
certain1 and should not conjecture only2
 for of all questions1 this respecting  
good and evil is the greatest4  ,very   
true1 he said4  ,let me then offer you  
an illustration1 which may1 ,i think1   
throw a light upon this subject4  ,what 
is your illustration8  ,the case of rich
 individuals in cities who possess many 
slaves3 from them you may form an idea  
of the tyrant's condition1 for they both

 have slaves2 the only difference is    
that he has more slaves4  ,yes1 that is 
the difference4  ,you know that they    
live securely and have nothing to       
apprehend from their servants8  ,what   
should they fear8  ,nothing4  ,but do   
you observe the reason of this8  ,yes2  
the reason is1 that the whole city is   
leagued together for the protection of  
each individual4  ,very true1 ,i said4  
,but imagine one of these owners1 the   
master say of some fifty slaves1        
together with his family and property   
and slaves1 carried off by a god into   
the wilderness1 where there are no      
freemen to help him--will he not be in  
an agony of fear lest he and his wife   
and children should be put to death by  
his slaves8  ,yes1 he said1 he will be  
in the utmost fear4  ,the time has      
arrived when he will be compelled to    
flatter divers of his slaves1 and make  
many promises to them of freedom and    
other things1 much against his will--he 
will have to cajole his own servants4   

,yes1 he said1 that will be the only way
 of saving himself4  ,and suppose the   
same god1 who carried him away1 to      
surround him with neighbours who will   
not suffer one man to be the master of  
another1 and who1 if they could catch   
the offender1 would take his life8  ,his
 case will be still worse1 if you       
suppose him to be everywhere surrounded 
and watched by enemies4  ,and is not    
this the sort of prison in which the    
tyrant will be bound--he who being by   
nature such as we have described1 is    
full of all sorts of fears and lusts8   
,his soul is dainty and greedy1 and yet 
alone1 of all men in the city1 he is    
never allowed to go on a journey1 or to 
see the things which other freemen      
desire to see1 but he lives in his hole 
like a woman hidden in the house1 and is
 jealous of any other citizen who goes  
into foreign parts and sees anything of 
interest4  ,very true1 he said4  ,and   
amid evils such as these will not he who
 is ill-governed in his own person--the 

tyrannical man1 ,i mean--whom you just  
now decided to be the most miserable of 
all--will not he be yet more miserable  
when1 instead of leading a private life1
 he is constrained by fortune to be a   
public tyrant8  ,he has to be master of 
others when he is not master of himself3
 he is like a diseased or paralytic man 
who is compelled to pass his life1 not  
in retirement1 but fighting and         
combating with other men4  ,yes1 he     
said1 the similitude is most exact4  ,is
 not his case utterly miserable8 and    
does not the actual tyrant lead a worse 
life than he whose life you determined  
to be the worst8  ,certainly4  ,he who  
is the real tyrant1 whatever men may    
think1 is the real slave1 and is obliged
 to practise the greatest adulation and 
servility1 and to be the flatterer of   
the vilest of mankind4  ,he has desires 
which he is utterly unable to satisfy1  
and has more wants than any one1 and is 
truly poor1 if you know how to inspect  
the whole soul of him3 all his life long

 he is beset with fear and is full of   
convulsions1 and distractions1 even as  
the ,state which he resembles3 and      
surely the resemblance holds8  ,very    
true1 he said4  ,moreover1 as we were   
saying before1 he grows worse from      
having power3 he becomes and is of      
necessity more jealous1 more faithless1 
more unjust1 more friendless1 more      
impious1 than he was at first2 he is the
 purveyor and cherisher of every sort of
 vice1 and the consequence is that he is
 supremely miserable1 and that he makes 
everybody else as miserable as himself4 
,no man of any sense will dispute your  
words4  ,come then1 ,i said1 and as the 
general umpire in theatrical contests   
proclaims the result1 do you also decide
 who in your opinion is first in the    
scale of happiness1 and who second1 and 
in what order the others follow3  there 
are five of them in all--they are the   
royal1 timocratical1 oligarchical1      
democratical1 tyrannical4  ,the decision
 will be easily given1 he replied2 they 

shall be choruses coming on the stage1  
and ,i must judge them in the order in  
which they enter1 by the criterion of   
virtue and vice1 happiness and misery4  
,need we hire a herald1 or shall ,i     
announce1 that the son of ,ariston 7the 
best7 has decided that the best and     
justest is also the happiest1 and that  
this is he who is the most royal man and
 king over himself2 and that the worst  
and most unjust man is also the most    
miserable1 and that this is he who being
 the greatest tyrant of himself is also 
the greatest tyrant of his ,state8      
,make the proclamation yourself1 he     
said4  ,and shall ,i add1 'whether seen 
or unseen by gods and men'8  ,let the   
words be added4  ,then this1 ,i said1   
will be our first proof2 and there is   
another1 which may also have some       
weight4  ,what is that8  ,the second    
proof is derived from the nature of the 
soul3 seeing that the individual soul1  
like the ,state1 has been divided by us 
into three principles1 the division may1

 ,i think1 furnish a new demonstration4 
,of what nature8  ,it seems to me that  
to these three principles three         
pleasures correspond2 also three desires
 and governing powers4  ,how do you     
mean8 he said4  ,there is one principle 
with which1 as we were saying1 a man    
learns1 another with which he is angry2 
the third1 having many forms1 has no    
special name1 but is denoted by the     
general term appetitive1 from the       
extraordinary strength and vehemence of 
the desires of eating and drinking and  
the other sensual appetites which are   
the main elements of it2 also           
money-loving1 because such desires are  
generally satisfied by the help of      
money4  ,that is true1 he said4  ,if we 
were to say that the loves and pleasures
 of this third part were concerned with 
gain1 we should then be able to fall    
back on a single notion2 and might truly
 and intelligibly describe this part of 
the soul as loving gain or money4  ,i   
agree with you4  ,again1 is not the     

passionate element wholly set on ruling 
and conquering and getting fame8  ,true4
  ,suppose we call it the contentious or
 ambitious--would the term be suitable8 
,extremely suitable4  ,on the other     
hand1 every one sees that the principle 
of knowledge is wholly directed to the  
truth1 and cares less than either of the
 others for gain or fame4  ,far less4   
',lover of wisdom1' 'lover of           
knowledge1' are titles which we may     
fitly apply to that part of the soul8   
,certainly4  ,one principle prevails in 
the souls of one class of men1 another  
in others1 as may happen8  ,yes4  ,then 
we may begin by assuming that there are 
three classes of men--lovers of wisdom1 
lovers of honour1 lovers of gain8       
,exactly4  ,and there are three kinds of
 pleasure1 which are their several      
objects8  ,very true4  ,now1 if you     
examine the three classes of men1 and   
ask of them in turn which of their lives
 is pleasantest1 each will be found     
praising his own and depreciating that  

of others3  the money-maker will        
contrast the vanity of honour or of     
learning if they bring no money with the
 solid advantages of gold and silver8   
,true1 he said4  ,and the lover of      
honour--what will be his opinion8  ,will
 he not think that the pleasure of      
riches is vulgar1 while the pleasure of 
learning1 if it brings no distinction1  
is all smoke and nonsense to him8  ,very
 true4  ,and are we to suppose1 ,i said1
 that the philosopher sets any value on 
other pleasures in comparison with the  
pleasure of knowing the truth1 and in   
that pursuit abiding1 ever learning1 not
 so far indeed from the heaven of       
pleasure8  ,does he not call the other  
pleasures necessary1 under the idea that
 if there were no necessity for them1 he
 would rather not have them8  ,there can
 be no doubt of that1 he replied4       
,since1 then1 the pleasures of each     
class and the life of each are in       
dispute1 and the question is not which  
life is more or less honourable1 or     

better or worse1 but which is the more  
pleasant or painless--how shall we know 
who speaks truly8  ,i cannot myself     
tell1 he said4  ,well1 but what ought to
 be the criterion8  ,is any better than 
experience and wisdom and reason8       
,there cannot be a better1 he said4     
,then1 ,i said1 reflect4  ,of the three 
individuals1 which has the greatest     
experience of all the pleasures which we
 enumerated8  ,has the lover of gain1 in
 learning the nature of essential truth1
 greater experience of the pleasure of  
knowledge than the philosopher has of   
the pleasure of gain8  ,the philosopher1
 he replied1 has greatly the advantage2 
for he has of necessity always known the
 taste of the other pleasures from his  
childhood upwards3  but the lover of    
gain in all his experience has not of   
necessity tasted--or1 ,i should rather  
say1 even had he desired1 could hardly  
have tasted--the sweetness of learning  
and knowing truth4  ,then the lover of  
wisdom has a great advantage over the   

lover of gain1 for he has a double      
experience8  ,yes1 very great4  ,again1 
has he greater experience of the        
pleasures of honour1 or the lover of    
honour of the pleasures of wisdom8      
,nay1 he said1 all three are honoured in
 proportion as they attain their object2
 for the rich man and the brave man and 
the wise man alike have their crowd of  
admirers1 and as they all receive honour
 they all have experience of the        
pleasures of honour2 but the delight    
which is to be found in the knowledge of
 true being is known to the philosopher 
only4  ,his experience1 then1 will      
enable him to judge better than any one8
  ,far better4  ,and he is the only one 
who has wisdom as well as experience8   
,certainly4  ,further1 the very faculty 
which is the instrument of judgment is  
not possessed by the covetous or        
ambitious man1 but only by the          
philosopher8  ,what faculty8  ,reason1  
with whom1 as we were saying1 the       
decision ought to rest4  ,yes4  ,and    

reasoning is peculiarly his instrument8 
,certainly4  ,if wealth and gain were   
the criterion1 then the praise or blame 
of the lover of gain would surely be the
 most trustworthy8  ,assuredly4  ,or if 
honour or victory or courage1 in that   
case the judgement of the ambitious or  
pugnacious would be the truest8         
,clearly4  ,but since experience and    
wisdom and reason are the judges--  ,the
 only inference possible1 he replied1 is
 that pleasures which are approved by   
the lover of wisdom and reason are the  
truest4  ,and so we arrive at the       
result1 that the pleasure of the        
intelligent part of the soul is the     
pleasantest of the three1 and that he of
 us in whom this is the ruling principle
 has the pleasantest life4              
,unquestionably1 he said1 the wise man  
speaks with authority when he approves  
of his own life4  ,and what does the    
judge affirm to be the life which is    
next1 and the pleasure which is next8   
,clearly that of the soldier and lover  

of honour2 who is nearer to himself than
 the money-maker4  ,last comes the lover
 of gain8  ,very true1 he said4  ,twice 
in succession1 then1 has the just man   
overthrown the unjust in this conflict2 
and now comes the third trial1 which is 
dedicated to ,olympian ,zeus the        
saviour3  a sage whispers in my ear that
 no pleasure except that of the wise is 
quite true and pure--all others are a   
shadow only2 and surely this will prove 
the greatest and most decisive of falls8
  ,yes1 the greatest2 but will you      
explain yourself8  ,i will work out the 
subject and you shall answer my         
questions4  ,proceed4  ,say1 then1 is   
not pleasure opposed to pain8  ,true4   
,and there is a neutral state which is  
neither pleasure nor pain8  ,there is4  
,a state which is intermediate1 and a   
sort of repose of the soul about        
either--that is what you mean8  ,yes4   
,you remember what people say when they 
are sick8  ,what do they say8  ,that    
after all nothing is pleasanter than    

health4  ,but then they never knew this 
to be the greatest of pleasures until   
they were ill4  ,yes1 ,i know1 he said4 
,and when persons are suffering from    
acute pain1 you must4  have heard them  
say that there is nothing pleasanter    
than to get rid of their pain8  ,i have4
  ,and there are many other cases of    
suffering in which the mere rest and    
cessation of pain1 and not any positive 
enjoyment1 is extolled by them as the   
greatest pleasure8  ,yes1 he said2 at   
the time they are pleased and well      
content to be at rest4  ,again1 when    
pleasure ceases1 that sort of rest or   
cessation will be painful8  ,doubtless1 
he said4  ,then the intermediate state  
of rest will be pleasure and will also  
be pain8  ,so it would seem4  ,but can  
that which is neither become both8  ,i  
should say not4  ,and both pleasure and 
pain are motions of the soul1 are they  
not8  ,yes4  ,but that which is neither 
was just now shown to be rest and not   
motion1 and in a mean between them8     

,yes4  ,how1 then1 can we be right in   
supposing that the absence of pain is   
pleasure1 or that the absence of        
pleasure is pain8  ,impossible4  ,this  
then is an appearance only and not a    
reality2 that is to say1 the rest is    
pleasure at the moment and in comparison
 of what is painful1 and painful in     
comparison of what is pleasant2 but all 
these representations1 when tried by the
 test of true pleasure1 are not real but
 a sort of imposition8  ,that is the    
inference4  ,look at the other class of 
pleasures which have no antecedent pains
 and you will no longer suppose1 as you 
perhaps may at present1 that pleasure is
 only the cessation of pain1 or pain of 
pleasure4  ,what are they1 he said1 and 
where shall ,i find them8  ,there are   
many of them3  take as an example the   
pleasures1 of smell1 which are very     
great and have no antecedent pains2 they
 come in a moment1 and when they depart 
leave no pain behind them4  ,most true1 
he said4  ,let us not1 then1 be induced 

to believe that pure pleasure is the    
cessation of pain1 or pain of pleasure4 
,no4  ,still1 the more numerous and     
violent pleasures which reach the soul  
through the body are generally of this  
sort--they are reliefs of pain4  ,that  
is true4  ,and the anticipations of     
future pleasures and pains are of a like
 nature8  ,yes4  ,shall ,i give you an  
illustration of them8  ,let me hear4    
,you would allow1 ,i said1 that there is
 in nature an upper and lower and middle
 region8  ,i should4  ,and if a person  
were to go from the lower to the middle 
region1 would he not imagine that he is 
going up2 and he who is standing in the 
middle and sees whence he has come1     
would imagine that he is already in the 
upper region1 if he has never seen the  
true upper world8  ,to be sure1 he said2
 how can he think otherwise8  ,but if he
 were taken back again he would imagine1
 and truly imagine1 that he was         
descending8  ,no doubt4  ,all that would
 arise out of his ignorance of the true 

upper and middle and lower regions8     
,yes4  ,then can you wonder that persons
 who are inexperienced in the truth1 as 
they have wrong ideas about many other  
things1 should also have wrong ideas    
about pleasure and pain and the         
intermediate state2 so that when they   
are only being drawn towards the painful
 they feel pain and think the pain which
 they experience to be real1 and in like
 manner1 when drawn away from pain to   
the neutral or intermediate state1 they 
firmly believe that they have reached   
the goal of satiety and pleasure2 they1 
not knowing pleasure1 err in contrasting
 pain with the absence of pain1 which is
 like contrasting black with grey       
instead of white--can you wonder1 ,i    
say1 at this8  ,no1 indeed2 ,i should be
 much more disposed to wonder at the    
opposite4  ,look at the matter          
thus3--,hunger1 thirst1 and the like1   
are inanitions of the bodily state8     
,yes4  ,and ignorance and folly are     
inanitions of the soul8  ,true4  ,and   

food and wisdom are the corresponding   
satisfactions of either8  ,certainly4   
,and is the satisfaction derived from   
that which has less or from that which  
has more existence the truer8  ,clearly1
 from that which has more4  ,what       
classes of things have a greater share  
of pure existence in your               
judgment--those of which food and drink 
and condiments and all kinds of         
sustenance are examples1 or the class   
which contains true opinion and         
knowledge and mind and all the different
 kinds of virtue8  ,put the question in 
this way3--,which has a more pure       
being--that which is concerned with the 
invariable1 the immortal1 and the true1 
and is of such a nature1 and is found in
 such natures2 or that which is         
concerned with and found in the variable
 and mortal1 and is itself variable and 
mortal8  ,far purer1 he replied1 is the 
being of that which is concerned with   
the invariable4  ,and does the essence  
of the invariable partake of knowledge  

in the same degree as of essence8  ,yes1
 of knowledge in the same degree4  ,and 
of truth in the same degree8  ,yes4     
,and1 conversely1 that which has less of
 truth will also have less of essence8  
,necessarily4  ,then1 in general1 those 
kinds of things which are in the service
 of the body have less of truth and     
essence than those which are in the     
service of the soul8  ,far less4  ,and  
has not the body itself less of truth   
and essence than the soul8  ,yes4  ,what
 is filled with more real existence1 and
 actually has a more real existence1 is 
more really filled than that which is   
filled with less real existence and is  
less real8  ,of course4  ,and if there  
be a pleasure in being filled with that 
which is according to nature1 that which
 is more really filled with more real   
being will more really and truly enjoy  
true pleasure2 whereas that which       
participates in less real being will be 
less truly and surely satisfied1 and    
will participate in an illusory and less

 real pleasure8  ,unquestionably4       
,those then who know not wisdom and     
virtue1 and are always busy with        
gluttony and sensuality1 go down and up 
again as far as the mean2 and in this   
region they move at random throughout   
life1 but they never pass into the true 
upper world2 thither they neither look1 
nor do they ever find their way1 neither
 are they truly filled with true being1 
nor do they taste of pure and abiding   
pleasure4  ,like cattle1 with their eyes
 always looking down and their heads    
stooping to the earth1 that is1 to the  
dining-table1 they fatten and feed and  
breed1 and1 in their excessive love of  
these delights1 they kick and butt at   
one another with horns and hoofs which  
are made of iron2 and they kill one     
another by reason of their insatiable   
lust4  ,for they fill themselves with   
that which is not substantial1 and the  
part of themselves which they fill is   
also unsubstantial and incontinent4     
,verily1 ,socrates1 said ,glaucon1 you  

describe the life of the many like an   
oracle4  ,their pleasures are mixed with
 pains--how can they be otherwise8  ,for
 they are mere shadows and pictures of  
the true1 and are coloured by contrast1 
which exaggerates both light and shade1 
and so they implant in the minds of     
fools insane desires of themselves2 and 
they are fought about as ,stesichorus   
says that the ,greeks fought about the  
shadow of ,helen at ,troy in ignorance  
of the truth4  ,something of that sort  
must inevitably happen4  ,and must not  
the like happen with the spirited or    
passionate element of the soul8  ,will  
not the passionate man who carries his  
passion into action1 be in the like     
case1 whether he is envious and         
ambitious1 or violent and contentious1  
or angry and discontented1 if he be     
seeking to attain honour and victory and
 the satisfaction of his anger without  
reason or sense8  ,yes1 he said1 the    
same will happen with the spirited      
element also4  ,then may we not         

confidently assert that the lovers of   
money and honour1 when they seek their  
pleasures under the guidance and in the 
company of reason and knowledge1 and    
pursue after and win the pleasures which
 wisdom shows them1 will also have the  
truest pleasures in the highest degree  
which is attainable to them1 inasmuch as
 they follow truth2 and they will have  
the pleasures which are natural to them1
 if that which is best for each one is  
also most natural to him8  ,yes1        
certainly2 the best is the most natural4
  ,and when the whole soul follows the  
philosophical principle1 and there is no
 division1 the several parts are just1  
and do each of them their own business1 
and enjoy severally the best and truest 
pleasures of which they are capable8    
,exactly4  ,but when either of the two  
other principles prevails1 it fails in  
attaining its own pleasure1 and compels 
the rest to pursue after a pleasure     
which is a shadow only and which is not 
their own8  ,true4  ,and the greater the

 interval which separates them from     
philosophy and reason1 the more strange 
and illusive will be the pleasure8      
,yes4  ,and is not that farthest from   
reason which is at the greatest distance
 from law and order8  ,clearly4  ,and   
the lustful and tyrannical desires are1 
as we saw1 at the greatest distance8    
,yes4  ,and the royal and orderly       
desires are nearest8  ,yes4  ,then the  
tyrant will live at the greatest        
distance from true or natural pleasure1 
and the king at the least8  ,certainly4 
,but if so1 the tyrant will live most   
unpleasantly1 and the king most         
pleasantly8  ,inevitably4  ,would you   
know the measure of the interval which  
separates them8  ,will you tell me8     
,there appear to be three pleasures1 one
 genuine and two spurious3 now the      
transgression of the tyrant reaches a   
point beyond the spurious2 he has run   
away from the region of law and reason1 
and taken up his abode with certain     
slave pleasures which are his           

satellites1 and the measure of his      
inferiority can only be expressed in a  
figure4  ,how do you mean8  ,i assume1  
,i said1 that the tyrant is in the third
 place from the oligarch2 the democrat  
was in the middle8  ,yes4  ,and if there
 is truth in what has preceded1 he will 
be wedded to an image of pleasure which 
is thrice removed as to truth from the  
pleasure of the oligarch8  ,he will4    
,and the oligarch is third from the     
royal2 since we count as one royal and  
aristocratical8  ,yes1 he is third4     
,then the tyrant is removed from true   
pleasure by the space of a number which 
is three times three8  ,manifestly4     
,the shadow then of tyrannical pleasure 
determined by the number of length will 
be a plane figure4  ,certainly4  ,and if
 you raise the power and make the plane 
a solid1 there is no difficulty in      
seeing how vast is the interval by which
 the tyrant is parted from the king4    
,yes2 the arithmetician will easily do  
the sum4  ,or if some person begins at  

the other end and measures the interval 
by which the king is parted from the    
tyrant in truth of pleasure1 he will    
find him1 when the multiplication is    
complete1 living #gbi times more        
pleasantly1 and the tyrant more         
painfully by this same interval4  ,what 
a wonderful calculation6  ,and how      
enormous is the distance which separates
 the just from the unjust in regard to  
pleasure and pain6  ,yet a true         
calculation1 ,i said1 and a number which
 nearly concerns human life1 if human   
beings are concerned with days and      
nights and months and years4  ,yes1 he  
said1 human life is certainly concerned 
with them4  ,then if the good and just  
man be thus superior in pleasure to the 
evil and unjust1 his superiority will be
 infinitely greater in propriety of life
 and in beauty and virtue8              
,immeasurably greater4  ,well1 ,i said1 
and now having arrived at this stage of 
the argument1 we may revert to the words
 which brought us hither3  ,was not some

 one saying that injustice was a gain to
 the perfectly unjust who was reputed to
 be just8  ,yes1 that was said4  ,now   
then1 having determined the power and   
quality of justice and injustice1 let us
 have a little conversation with him4   
,what shall we say to him8  ,let us make
 an image of the soul1 that he may have 
his own words presented before his eyes4
  ,of what sort8  ,an ideal image of the
 soul1 like the composite creations of  
ancient mythology1 such as the ,chimera 
or ,scylla or ,cerberus1 and there are  
many others in which two or more        
different natures are said to grow into 
one4  ,there are said of have been such 
unions4  ,then do you now model the form
 of a multitudinous1 many-headed        
monster1 having a ring of heads of all  
manner of beasts1 tame and wild1 which  
he is able to generate and metamorphose 
at will4  ,you suppose marvellous powers
 in the artist2 but1 as language is more
 pliable than wax or any similar        
substance1 let there be such a model as 

you propose4  ,suppose now that you make
 a second form as of a lion1 and a third
 of a man1 the second smaller than the  
first1 and the third smaller than the   
second4  ,that1 he said1 is an easier   
task2 and ,i have made them as you say4 
,and now join them1 and let the three   
grow into one4  ,that has been          
accomplished4  ,next fashion the outside
 of them into a single image1 as of a   
man1 so that he who is not able to look 
within1 and sees only the outer hull1   
may believe the beast to be a single    
human creature4  ,i have done so1 he    
said4  ,and now1 to him who maintains   
that it is profitable for the human     
creature to be unjust1 and unprofitable 
to be just1 let us reply that1 if he be 
right1 it is profitable for this        
creature to feast the multitudinous     
monster and strengthen the lion and the 
lion-like qualities1 but to starve and  
weaken the man1 who is consequently     
liable to be dragged about at the mercy 
of either of the other two2 and he is   

not to attempt to familiarize or        
harmonize them with one another--he     
ought rather to suffer them to fight and
 bite and devour one another4           
,certainly1 he said2 that is what the   
approver of injustice says4  ,to him the
 supporter of justice makes answer that 
he should ever so speak and act as to   
give the man within him in some way or  
other the most complete mastery over the
 entire human creature4  ,he should     
watch over the many-headed monster like 
a good husbandman1 fostering and        
cultivating the gentle qualities1 and   
preventing the wild ones from growing2  
he should be making the lion-heart his  
ally1 and in common care of them all    
should be uniting the several parts with
 one another and with himself4  ,yes1 he
 said1 that is quite what the maintainer
 of justice say4  ,and so from every    
point of view1 whether of pleasure1     
honour1 or advantage1 the approver of   
justice is right and speaks the truth1  
and the disapprover is wrong and false  

and ignorant4  ,yes1 from every point of
 view4  ,come1 now1 and let us gently   
reason with the unjust1 who is not      
intentionally in error4  ',sweet ,sir1' 
we will say to him1 what think you of   
things esteemed noble and ignoble8  ,is 
not the noble that which subjects the   
beast to the man1 or rather to the god  
in man2 and the ignoble that which      
subjects the man to the beast8' ,he can 
hardly avoid saying yes--can he now8    
,not if he has any regard for my        
opinion4  ,but1 if he agree so far1 we  
may ask him to answer another question3 
',then how would a man profit if he     
received gold and silver on the         
condition that he was to enslave the    
noblest part of him to the worst8 ,who  
can imagine that a man who sold his son 
or daughter into slavery for money1     
especially if he sold them into the     
hands of fierce and evil men1 would be  
the gainer1 however large might be the  
sum which he received8  ,and will any   
one say that he is not a miserable      

caitiff who remorselessly sells his own 
divine being to that which is most      
godless and detestable8  ,eriphyle took 
the necklace as the price of her        
husband's life1 but he is taking a bribe
 in order to compass a worse ruin4'     
,yes1 said ,glaucon1 far worse--,i will 
answer for him4  ,has not the           
intemperate been censured of old1       
because in him the huge multiform       
monster is allowed to be too much at    
large8  ,clearly4  ,and men are blamed  
for pride and bad temper when the lion  
and serpent element in them             
disproportionately grows and gains      
strength8  ,yes4  ,and luxury and       
softness are blamed1 because they relax 
and weaken this same creature1 and make 
a coward of him8  ,very true4  ,and is  
not a man reproached for flattery and   
meanness who subordinates the spirited  
animal to the unruly monster1 and1 for  
the sake of money1 of which he can never
 have enough1 habituates him in the days
 of his youth to be trampled in the     

mire1 and from being a lion to become a 
monkey8  ,true1 he said4  ,and why are  
mean employments and manual arts a      
reproach ,only because they imply a     
natural weakness of the higher          
principle2 the individual is unable to  
control the creatures within him1 but   
has to court them1 and his great study  
is how to flatter them4  ,such appears  
to be the reason4  ,and therefore1 being
 desirous of placing him under a rule   
like that of the best1 we say that he   
ought to be the servant of the best1 in 
whom the ,divine rules2 not1 as         
,thrasymachus supposed1 to the injury of
 the servant1 but because every one had 
better be ruled by divine wisdom        
dwelling within him2 or1 if this be     
impossible1 then by an external         
authority1 in order that we may be all1 
as far as possible1 under the same      
government1 friends and equals4  ,true1 
he said4  ,and this is clearly seen to  
be the intention of the law1 which is   
the ally of the whole city2 and is seen 

also in the authority which we exercise 
over children1 and the refusal to let   
them be free until we have established  
in them a principle analogous to the    
constitution of a state1 and by         
cultivation of this higher element have 
set up in their hearts a guardian and   
ruler like our own1 and when this is    
done they may go their ways4  ,yes1 he  
said1 the purpose of the law is         
manifest4  ,from what point of view1    
then1 and on what ground can we say that
 a man is profited by injustice or      
intemperance or other baseness1 which   
will make him a worse man1 even though  
he acquire money or power by his        
wickedness8  ,from no point of view at  
all4  ,what shall he profit1 if his     
injustice be undetected and unpunished8 
,he who is undetected only gets worse1  
whereas he who is detected and punished 
has the brutal part of his nature       
silenced and humanized2 the gentler     
element in him is liberated1 and his    
whole soul is perfected and ennobled by 

the acquirement of justice and          
temperance and wisdom1 more than the    
body ever is by receiving gifts of      
beauty1 strength and health1 in         
proportion as the soul is more          
honourable than the body4  ,certainly1  
he said4  ,to this nobler purpose the   
man of understanding will devote the    
energies of his life4  ,and in the first
 place1 he will honour studies which    
impress these qualities on his soul and 
disregard others8  ,clearly1 he said4   
,in the next place1 he will regulate his
 bodily habit and training1 and so far  
will he be from yielding to brutal and  
irrational pleasures1 that he will      
regard even health as quite a secondary 
matter2 his first object will be not    
that he may be fair or strong or well1  
unless he is likely thereby to gain     
temperance1 but he will always desire so
 to attemper the body as to preserve the
 harmony of the soul8  ,certainly he    
will1 if he has true music in him4  ,and
 in the acquisition of wealth there is a

 principle of order and harmony which he
 will also observe2 he will not allow   
himself to be dazzled by the foolish    
applause of the world1 and heap up      
riches to his own infinite harm8        
,certainly not1 he said4  ,he will look 
at the city which is within him1 and    
take heed that no disorder occur in it1 
such as might arise either from         
superfluity or from want2 and upon this 
principle he will regulate his property 
and gain or spend according to his      
means4  ,very true4  ,and1 for the same 
reason1 he will gladly accept and enjoy 
such honours as he deems likely to make 
him a better man2 but those1 whether    
private or public1 which are likely to  
disorder his life1 he will avoid8       
,then1 if that is his motive1 he will   
not be a statesman4  ,by the dog of     
,egypt1 he will6 in the city which is   
his own he certainly will1 though in the
 land of his birth perhaps not1 unless  
he have a divine call4  ,i understand2  
you mean that he will be a ruler in the 

city of which we are the founders1 and  
which exists in idea only2 for ,i do not
 believe that there is such an one      
anywhere on earth8  ,in heaven1 ,i      
replied1 there is laid up a pattern of  
it1 methinks1 which he who desires may  
behold1 and beholding1 may set his own  
house in order4  ,but whether such an   
one exists1 or ever will exist in fact1 
is no matter2 for he will live after the
 manner of that city1 having nothing to 
do with any other4  ,i think so1 he     
said4     ,,book ,x   ,,socrates -      
,,glaucon  ,,of ,,the many excellences  
which ,i perceive in the order of our   
,state1 there is none which upon        
reflection pleases me better than the   
rule about poetry4  ,to what do you     
refer8  ,to the rejection of imitative  
poetry1 which certainly ought not to be 
received2 as ,i see far more clearly now
 that the parts of the soul have been   
distinguished4  ,what do you mean8      
,speaking in confidence1 for ,i should  
not like to have my words repeated to   

the tragedians and the rest of the      
imitative tribe--but ,i do not mind     
saying to you1 that all poetical        
imitations are ruinous to the           
understanding of the hearers1 and that  
the knowledge of their true nature is   
the only antidote to them4  ,explain the
 purport of your remark4  ,well1 ,i will
 tell you1 although ,i have always from 
my earliest youth had an awe and love of
 ,homer1 which even now makes the words 
falter on my lips1 for he is the great  
captain and teacher of the whole of that
 charming tragic company2 but a man is  
not to be reverenced more than the      
truth1 and therefore ,i will speak out4 
,very good1 he said4  ,listen to me     
then1 or rather1 answer me4  ,put your  
question4  ,can you tell me what        
imitation is8 for ,i really do not know4
  ,a likely thing1 then1 that ,i should 
know4  ,why not8 for the duller eye may 
often see a thing sooner than the       
keener4  ,very true1 he said2 but in    
your presence1 even if ,i had any faint 

notion1 ,i could not muster courage to  
utter it4  ,will you enquire yourself8  
,well then1 shall we begin the enquiry  
in our usual manner3 ,whenever a number 
of individuals have a common name1 we   
assume them to have also a corresponding
 idea or form4  ,do you understand me8  
,i do4  ,let us take any common         
instance2 there are beds and tables in  
the world--plenty of them1 are there    
not8  ,yes4  ,but there are only two    
ideas or forms of them--one the idea of 
a bed1 the other of a table4  ,true4    
,and the maker of either of them makes a
 bed or he makes a table for our use1 in
 accordance with the idea--that is our  
way of speaking in this and similar     
instances--but no artificer makes the   
ideas themselves3 how could he8         
,impossible4  ,and there is another     
artist1--,i should like to know what you
 would say of him4  ,who is he8  ,one   
who is the maker of all the works of all
 other workmen4  ,what an extraordinary 
man6  ,wait a little1 and there will be 

more reason for your saying so4  ,for   
this is he who is able to make not only 
vessels of every kind1 but plants and   
animals1 himself and all other          
things--the earth and heaven1 and the   
things which are in heaven or under the 
earth2 he makes the gods also4  ,he must
 be a wizard and no mistake4  ,oh6 you  
are incredulous1 are you8  ,do you mean 
that there is no such maker or creator1 
or that in one sense there might be a   
maker of all these things but in another
 not8  ,do you see that there is a way  
in which you could make them all        
yourself8  ,what way8  ,an easy way     
enough2 or rather1 there are many ways  
in which the feat might be quickly and  
easily accomplished1 none quicker than  
that of turning a mirror round and      
round--you would soon enough make the   
sun and the heavens1 and the earth and  
yourself1 and other animals and plants1 
and all the other things of which we    
were just now speaking1 in the mirror4  
,yes1 he said2 but they would be        

appearances only4  ,very good1 ,i said1 
you are coming to the point now4  ,and  
the painter too is1 as ,i conceive1 just
 such another--a creator of appearances1
 is he not8  ,of course4  ,but then ,i  
suppose you will say that what he       
creates is untrue4  ,and yet there is a 
sense in which the painter also creates 
a bed8  ,yes1 he said1 but not a real   
bed4  ,and what of the maker of the bed8
  ,were you not saying that he too      
makes1 not the idea which1 according to 
our view1 is the essence of the bed1 but
 only a particular bed8  ,yes1 ,i did4  
,then if he does not make that which    
exists he cannot make true existence1   
but only some semblance of existence2   
and if any one were to say that the work
 of the maker of the bed1 or of any     
other workman1 has real existence1 he   
could hardly be supposed to be speaking 
the truth4  ,at any rate1 he replied1   
philosophers would say that he was not  
speaking the truth4  ,no wonder1 then1  
that his work too is an indistinct      

expression of truth4  ,no wonder4       
,suppose now that by the light of the   
examples just offered we enquire who    
this imitator is8  ,if you please4      
,well then1 here are three beds3  one   
existing in nature1 which is made by    
,god1 as ,i think that we may say--for  
no one else can be the maker8  ,no4     
,there is another which is the work of  
the carpenter8  ,yes4  ,and the work of 
the painter is a third8  ,yes4  ,beds1  
then1 are of three kinds1 and there are 
three artists who superintend them3     
,god1 the maker of the bed1 and the     
painter8  ,yes1 there are three of them4
  ,god1 whether from choice or from     
necessity1 made one bed in nature and   
one only2 two or more such ideal beds   
neither ever have been nor ever will be 
made by ,god4  ,why is that8  ,because  
even if ,he had made but two1 a third   
would still appear behind them which    
both of them would have for their idea1 
and that would be the ideal bed and the 
two others4  ,very true1 he said4  ,god 

knew this1 and ,he desired to be the    
real maker of a real bed1 not a         
particular maker of a particular bed1   
and therefore ,he created a bed which is
 essentially and by nature one only4    
,so we believe4  ,shall we1 then1 speak 
of ,him as the natural author or maker  
of the bed8  ,yes1 he replied2 inasmuch 
as by the natural process of creation   
,he is the author of this and of all    
other things4  ,and what shall we say of
 the carpenter--is not he also the maker
 of the bed8  ,yes4  ,but would you call
 the painter a creator and maker8       
,certainly not4  ,yet if he is not the  
maker1 what is he in relation to the    
bed8  ,i think1 he said1 that we may    
fairly designate him as the imitator of 
that which the others make4  ,good1 ,i  
said2 then you call him who is third in 
the descent from nature an imitator8    
,certainly1 he said4  ,and the tragic   
poet is an imitator1 and therefore1 like
 all other imitators1 he is thrice      
removed from the king and from the      

truth8  ,that appears to be so4  ,then  
about the imitator we are agreed4  ,and 
what about the painter8-- ,i would like 
to know whether he may be thought to    
imitate that which originally exists in 
nature1 or only the creations of        
artists8  ,the latter4  ,as they are or 
as they appear8  ,you have still to     
determine this4  ,what do you mean8  ,i 
mean1 that you may look at a bed from   
different points of view1 obliquely or  
directly or from any other point of     
view1 and the bed will appear different1
 but there is no difference in reality4 
,and the same of all things4  ,yes1 he  
said1 the difference is only apparent4  
,now let me ask you another question3   
,which is the art of painting designed  
to be--an imitation of things as they   
are1 or as they appear--of appearance or
 of reality8  ,of appearance4  ,then the
 imitator1 ,i said1 is a long way off   
the truth1 and can do all things because
 he lightly touches on a small part of  
them1 and that part an image4  ,for     

example3  ,a painter will paint a       
cobbler1 carpenter1 or any other artist1
 though he knows nothing of their arts2 
and1 if he is a good artist1 he may     
deceive children or simple persons1 when
 he shows them his picture of a         
carpenter from a distance1 and they will
 fancy that they are looking at a real  
carpenter4  ,certainly4  ,and whenever  
any one informs us that he has found a  
man knows all the arts1 and all things  
else that anybody knows1 and every      
single thing with a higher degree of    
accuracy than any other man--whoever    
tells us this1 ,i think that we can only
 imagine to be a simple creature who is 
likely to have been deceived by some    
wizard or actor whom he met1 and whom he
 thought all-knowing1 because he himself
 was unable to analyse the nature of    
knowledge and ignorance and imitation4  
,most true4  ,and so1 when we hear      
persons saying that the tragedians1 and 
,homer1 who is at their head1 know all  
the arts and all things human1 virtue as

 well as vice1 and divine things too1   
for that the good poet cannot compose   
well unless he knows his subject1 and   
that he who has not this knowledge can  
never be a poet1 we ought to consider   
whether here also there may not be a    
similar illusion4  ,perhaps they may    
have come across imitators and been     
deceived by them2 they may not have     
remembered when they saw their works    
that these were but imitations thrice   
removed from the truth1 and could easily
 be made without any knowledge of the   
truth1 because they are appearances only
 and not realities8  ,or1 after all1    
they may be in the right1 and poets do  
really know the things about which they 
seem to the many to speak so well8  ,the
 question1 he said1 should by all means 
be considered4  ,now do you suppose that
 if a person were able to make the      
original as well as the image1 he would 
seriously devote himself to the         
image-making branch8  ,would he allow   
imitation to be the ruling principle of 

his life1 as if he had nothing higher in
 him8  ,i should say not4  ,the real    
artist1 who knew what he was imitating1 
would be interested in realities and not
 in imitations2 and would desire to     
leave as memorials of himself works many
 and fair2 and1 instead of being the    
author of encomiums1 he would prefer to 
be the theme of them4  ,yes1 he said1   
that would be to him a source of much   
greater honour and profit4  ,then1 ,i   
said1 we must put a question to ,homer2 
not about medicine1 or any of the arts  
to which his poems only incidentally    
refer3 we are not going to ask him1 or  
any other poet1 whether he has cured    
patients like ,asclepius1 or left behind
 him a school of medicine such as the   
,asclepiads were1 or whether he only    
talks about medicine and other arts at  
second hand2 but we have a right to know
 respecting military tactics1 politics1 
education1 which are the chiefest and   
noblest subjects of his poems1 and we   
may fairly ask him about them4  ',friend

 ,homer1' then we say to him1 'if you   
are only in the second remove from truth
 in what you say of virtue1 and not in  
the third--not an image maker or        
imitator--and if you are able to discern
 what pursuits make men better or worse 
in private or public life1 tell us what 
,state was ever better governed by your 
help8  ,the good order of ,lacedaemon is
 due to ,lycurgus1 and many other cities
 great and small have been similarly    
benefited by others2 but who says that  
you have been a good legislator to them 
and have done them any good8  ,italy and
 ,sicily boast of ,charondas1 and there 
is ,solon who is renowned among us2 but 
what city has anything to say about     
you8'  ,is there any city which he might
 name8  ,i think not1 said ,glaucon2 not
 even the ,homerids themselves pretend  
that he was a legislator4  ,well1 but is
 there any war on record which was      
carried on successfully by him1 or aided
 by his counsels1 when he was alive8    
,there is not4  ,or is there any        

invention of his1 applicable to the arts
 or to human life1 such as ,thales the  
,milesian or ,anacharsis the ,scythian1 
and other ingenious men have conceived1 
which is attributed to him8  ,there is  
absolutely nothing of the kind4  ,but1  
if ,homer never did any public service1 
was he privately a guide or teacher of  
any8  ,had he in his lifetime friends   
who loved to associate with him1 and who
 handed down to posterity an ,homeric   
way of life1 such as was established by 
,pythagoras who was so greatly beloved  
for his wisdom1 and whose followers are 
to this day quite celebrated for the    
order which was named after him8        
,nothing of the kind is recorded of him4
  ,for surely1 ,socrates1 ,creophylus1  
the companion of ,homer1 that child of  
flesh1 whose name always makes us laugh1
 might be more justly ridiculed for his 
stupidity1 if1 as is said1 ,homer was   
greatly neglected by him and others in  
his own day when he was alive8  ,yes1 ,i
 replied1 that is the tradition4  ,but  

can you imagine1 ,glaucon1 that if      
,homer had really been able to educate  
and improve mankind--if he had possessed
 knowledge and not been a mere          
imitator--can you imagine1 ,i say1 that 
he would not have had many followers1   
and been honoured and loved by them8    
,protagoras of ,abdera1 and ,prodicus of
 ,ceos1 and a host of others1 have only 
to whisper to their contemporaries3     
',you will never be able to manage      
either your own house or your own ,state
 until you appoint us to be your        
ministers of education'--and this       
ingenious device of theirs has such an  
effect in making them love them that    
their companions all but carry them     
about on their shoulders4  ,and is it   
conceivable that the contemporaries of  
,homer1 or again of ,hesiod1 would have 
allowed either of them to go about as   
rhapsodists1 if they had really been    
able to make mankind virtuous8  ,would  
they not have been as unwilling to part 
with them as with gold1 and have        

compelled them to stay at home with     
them8  ,or1 if the master would not     
stay1 then the disciples would have     
followed him about everywhere1 until    
they had got education enough8  ,yes1   
,socrates1 that1 ,i think1 is quite     
true4  ,then must we not infer that all 
these poetical individuals1 beginning   
with ,homer1 are only imitators2 they   
copy images of virtue and the like1 but 
the truth they never reach8  ,the poet  
is like a painter who1 as we have       
already observed1 will make a likeness  
of a cobbler though he understands      
nothing of cobbling2 and his picture is 
good enough for those who know no more  
than he does1 and judge only by colours 
and figures4  ,quite so4  ,in like      
manner the poet with his words and      
phrases may be said to lay on the       
colours of the several arts1 himself    
understanding their nature only enough  
to imitate them2 and other people1 who  
are as ignorant as he is1 and judge only
 from his words1 imagine that if he     

speaks of cobbling1 or of military      
tactics1 or of anything else1 in metre  
and harmony and rhythm1 he speaks very  
well--such is the sweet influence which 
melody and rhythm by nature have4  ,and 
,i think that you must have observed    
again and again what a poor appearance  
the tales of poets make when stripped of
 the colours which music puts upon them1
 and recited in simple prose4  ,yes1 he 
said4  ,they are like faces which were  
never really beautiful1 but only        
blooming2 and now the bloom of youth has
 passed away from them8  ,exactly4      
,here is another point3  ,the imitator  
or maker of the image knows nothing of  
true existence2 he knows appearances    
only4  ,am ,i not right8  ,yes4  ,then  
let us have a clear understanding1 and  
not be satisfied with half an           
explanation4  ,proceed4  ,of the painter
 we say that he will paint reins1 and he
 will paint a bit8  ,yes4  ,and the     
worker in leather and brass will make   
them8  ,certainly4  ,but does the       

painter know the right form of the bit  
and reins8  ,nay1 hardly even the       
workers in brass and leather who make   
them2 only the horseman who knows how to
 use them--he knows their right form4   
,most true4  ,and may we not say the    
same of all things8  ,what8  ,that there
 are three arts which are concerned with
 all things3 one which uses1 another    
which makes1 a third which imitates     
them8  ,yes4  ,and the excellence or    
beauty or truth of every structure1     
animate or inanimate1 and of every      
action of man1 is relative to the use   
for which nature or the artist has      
intended them4  ,true4  ,then the user  
of them must have the greatest          
experience of them1 and he must indicate
 to the maker the good or bad qualities 
which develop themselves in use2 for    
example1 the flute-player will tell the 
flute-maker which of his flutes is      
satisfactory to the performer2 he will  
tell him how he ought to make them1 and 
the other will attend to his            

instructions8  ,of course4  ,the one    
knows and therefore speaks with         
authority about the goodness and badness
 of flutes1 while the other1 confiding  
in him1 will do what he is told by him8 
,true4  ,the instrument is the same1 but
 about the excellence or badness of it  
the maker will only attain to a correct 
belief2 and this he will gain from him  
who knows1 by talking to him and being  
compelled to hear what he has to say1   
whereas the user will have knowledge8   
,true4  ,but will the imitator have     
either8  ,will he know from use whether 
or no his drawing is correct or         
beautiful8  ,or will he have right      
opinion from being compelled to         
associate with another who knows and    
gives him instructions about what he    
should draw8  ,neither4  ,then he will  
no more have true opinion than he will  
have knowledge about the goodness or    
badness of his imitations8  ,i suppose  
not4  ,the imitative artist will be in a
 brilliant state of intelligence about  

his own creations8  ,nay1 very much the 
reverse4  ,and still he will go on      
imitating without knowing what makes a  
thing good or bad1 and may be expected  
therefore to imitate only that which    
appears to be good to the ignorant      
multitude8  ,just so4  ,thus far then we
 are pretty well agreed that the        
imitator has no knowledge worth         
mentioning of what he imitates4         
,imitation is only a kind of play or    
sport1 and the tragic poets1 whether    
they write in iambic or in ,heroic      
verse1 are imitators in the highest     
degree8  ,very true4  ,and now tell me1 
,i conjure you1 has not imitation been  
shown by us to be concerned with that   
which is thrice removed from the truth8 
,certainly4  ,and what is the faculty in
 man to which imitation is addressed8   
,what do you mean8  ,i will explain3    
,the body which is large when seen near1
 appears small when seen at a distance8 
,true4  ,and the same object appears    
straight when looked at out of the      

water1 and crooked when in the water2   
and the concave becomes convex1 owing to
 the illusion about colours to which the
 sight is liable4  ,thus every sort of  
confusion is revealed within us2 and    
this is that weakness of the human mind 
on which the art of conjuring and of    
deceiving by light and shadow and other 
ingenious devices imposes1 having an    
effect upon us like magic4  ,true4  ,and
 the arts of measuring and numbering and
 weighing come to the rescue of the     
human understanding-there is the beauty 
of them--and the apparent greater or    
less1 or more or heavier1 no longer have
 the mastery over us1 but give way      
before calculation and measure and      
weight8  ,most true4  ,and this1 surely1
 must be the work of the calculating and
 rational principle in the soul  ,to be 
sure4  ,and when this principle measures
 and certifies that some things are     
equal1 or that some are greater or less 
than others1 there occurs an apparent   
contradiction8  ,true4  ,but were we not

 saying that such a contradiction is the
 same faculty cannot have contrary      
opinions at the same time about the same
 thing8  ,very true4  ,then that part of
 the soul which has an opinion contrary 
to measure is not the same with that    
which has an opinion in accordance with 
measure8  ,true4  ,and the better part  
of the soul is likely to be that which  
trusts to measure and calculation8      
,certainly4  ,and that which is opposed 
to them is one of the inferior          
principles of the soul8  ,no doubt4     
,this was the conclusion at which ,i was
 seeking to arrive when ,i said that    
painting or drawing1 and imitation in   
general1 when doing their own proper    
work1 are far removed from truth1 and   
the companions and friends and          
associates of a principle within us     
which is equally removed from reason1   
and that they have no true or healthy   
aim4  ,exactly4  ,the imitative art is  
an inferior who marries an inferior1 and
 has inferior offspring4  ,very true4   

,and is this confined to the sight only1
 or does it extend to the hearing also1 
relating in fact to what we term poetry8
  ,probably the same would be true of   
poetry4  ,do not rely1 ,i said1 on a    
probability derived from the analogy of 
painting2 but let us examine further and
 see whether the faculty with which     
poetical imitation is concerned is good 
or bad4  ,by all means4  ,we may state  
the question thus3--,imitation imitates 
the actions of men1 whether voluntary or
 involuntary1 on which1 as they imagine1
 a good or bad result has ensued1 and   
they rejoice or sorrow accordingly4  ,is
 there anything more8  ,no1 there is    
nothing else4  ,but in all this variety 
of circumstances is the man at unity    
with himself--or rather1 as in the      
instance of sight there was confusion   
and opposition in his opinions about the
 same things1 so here also is there not 
strife and inconsistency in his life8   
,though ,i need hardly raise the        
question again1 for ,i remember that all

 this has been already admitted2 and the
 soul has been acknowledged by us to be 
full of these and ten thousand similar  
oppositions occurring at the same       
moment8  ,and we were right1 he said4   
,yes1 ,i said1 thus far we were right2  
but there was an omission which must now
 be supplied4  ,what was the omission8  
,were we not saying that a good man1 who
 has the misfortune to lose his son or  
anything else which is most dear to him1
 will bear the loss with more equanimity
 than another8  ,yes4  ,but will he have
 no sorrow1 or shall we say that        
although he cannot help sorrowing1 he   
will moderate his sorrow8  ,the latter1 
he said1 is the truer statement4  ,tell 
me3  will he be more likely to struggle 
and hold out against his sorrow when he 
is seen by his equals1 or when he is    
alone8  ,it will make a great difference
 whether he is seen or not4  ,when he is
 by himself he will not mind saying or  
doing many things which he would be     
ashamed of any one hearing or seeing him

 do8  ,true4  ,there is a principle of  
law and reason in him which bids him    
resist1 as well as a feeling of his     
misfortune which is forcing him to      
indulge his sorrow8  ,true4  ,but when a
 man is drawn in two opposite           
directions1 to and from the same object1
 this1 as we affirm1 necessarily implies
 two distinct principles in him8        
,certainly4  ,one of them is ready to   
follow the guidance of the law8  ,how do
 you mean8  ,the law would say that to  
be patient under suffering is best1 and 
that we should not give way to          
impatience1 as there is no knowing      
whether such things are good or evil2   
and nothing is gained by impatience2    
also1 because no human thing is of      
serious importance1 and grief stands in 
the way of that which at the moment is  
most required4  ,what is most required8 
he asked4  ,that we should take counsel 
about what has happened1 and when the   
dice have been thrown order our affairs 
in the way which reason deems best2 not1

 like children who have had a fall1     
keeping hold of the part struck and     
wasting time in setting up a howl1 but  
always accustoming the soul forthwith to
 apply a remedy1 raising up that which  
is sickly and fallen1 banishing the cry 
of sorrow by the healing art4  ,yes1 he 
said1 that is the true way of meeting   
the attacks of fortune4  ,yes1 ,i said2 
and the higher principle is ready to    
follow this suggestion of reason8       
,clearly4  ,and the other principle1    
which inclines us to recollection of our
 troubles and to lamentation1 and can   
never have enough of them1 we may call  
irrational1 useless1 and cowardly8      
,indeed1 we may4  ,and does not the     
latter--,i mean the rebellious          
principle--furnish a great variety of   
materials for imitation8  ,whereas the  
wise and calm temperament1 being always 
nearly equable1 is not easy to imitate  
or to appreciate when imitated1         
especially at a public festival when a  
promiscuous crowd is assembled in a     

theatre4  ,for the feeling represented  
is one to which they are strangers4     
,certainly4  ,then the imitative poet   
who aims at being popular is not by     
nature made1 nor is his art intended1 to
 please or to affect the principle in   
the soul2 but he will prefer the        
passionate and fitful temper1 which is  
easily imitated8  ,clearly4  ,and now we
 may fairly take him and place him by   
the side of the painter1 for he is like 
him in two ways3  first1 inasmuch as his
 creations have an inferior degree of   
truth--in this1 ,i say1 he is like him2 
and he is also like him in being        
concerned with an inferior part of the  
soul2 and therefore we shall be right in
 refusing to admit him into a           
well-ordered ,state1 because he awakens 
and nourishes and strengthens the       
feelings and impairs the reason4  ,as in
 a city when the evil are permitted to  
have authority and the good are put out 
of the way1 so in the soul of man1 as we
 maintain1 the imitative poet implants  

an evil constitution1 for he indulges   
the irrational nature which has no      
discernment of greater and less1 but    
thinks the same thing at one time great 
and at another small-he is a            
manufacturer of images and is very far  
removed from the truth4  ,exactly4  ,but
 we have not yet brought forward the    
heaviest count in our accusation3--the  
power which poetry has of harming even  
the good 7and there are very few who are
 not harmed71 is surely an awful thing8 
,yes1 certainly1 if the effect is what  
you say4  ,hear and judge3  ,the best of
 us1 as ,i conceive1 when we listen to a
 passage of ,homer1 or one of the       
tragedians1 in which he represents some 
pitiful hero who is drawling out his    
sorrows in a long oration1 or weeping1  
and smiting his breast--the best of us1 
you know1 delight in giving way to      
sympathy1 and are in raptures at the    
excellence of the poet who stirs our    
feelings most4  ,yes1 of course ,i know4
  ,but when any sorrow of our own       

happens to us1 then you may observe that
 we pride ourselves on the opposite     
quality--we would fain be quiet and     
patient2 this is the manly part1 and the
 other which delighted us in the        
recitation is now deemed to be the part 
of a woman4  ,very true1 he said4  ,now 
can we be right in praising and admiring
 another who is doing that which any one
 of us would abominate and be ashamed of
 in his own person8  ,no1 he said1 that 
is certainly not reasonable4  ,nay1 ,i  
said1 quite reasonable from one point of
 view4  ,what point of view8  ,if you   
consider1 ,i said1 that when in         
misfortune we feel a natural hunger and 
desire to relieve our sorrow by weeping 
and lamentation1 and that this feeling  
which is kept under control in our own  
calamities is satisfied and delighted by
 the poets2-the better nature in each of
 us1 not having been sufficiently       
trained by reason or habit1 allows the  
sympathetic element to break loose      
because the sorrow is another's2 and the

 spectator fancies that there can be no 
disgrace to himself in praising and     
pitying any one who comes telling him   
what a good man he is1 and making a fuss
 about his troubles2 he thinks that the 
pleasure is a gain1 and why should he be
 supercilious and lose this and the poem
 too8  ,few persons ever reflect1 as ,i 
should imagine1 that from the evil of   
other men something of evil is          
communicated to themselves4  ,and so the
 feeling of sorrow which has gathered   
strength at the sight of the misfortunes
 of others is with difficulty repressed 
in our own4  ,how very true6  ,and does 
not the same hold also of the           
ridiculous8  ,there are jests which you 
would be ashamed to make yourself1 and  
yet on the comic stage1 or indeed in    
private1 when you hear them1 you are    
greatly amused by them1 and are not at  
all disgusted at their                  
unseemliness2--the case of pity is      
repeated2--there is a principle in human
 nature which is disposed to raise a    

laugh1 and this which you once          
restrained by reason1 because you were  
afraid of being thought a buffoon1 is   
now let out again2 and having stimulated
 the risible faculty at the theatre1 you
 are betrayed unconsciously to yourself 
into playing the comic poet at home4    
,quite true1 he said4  ,and the same may
 be said of lust and anger and all the  
other affections1 of desire and pain and
 pleasure1 which are held to be         
inseparable from every action--in all of
 them poetry feeds and waters the       
passions instead of drying them up2 she 
lets them rule1 although they ought to  
be controlled1 if mankind are ever to   
increase in happiness and virtue4  ,i   
cannot deny it4  ,therefore1 ,glaucon1  
,i said1 whenever you meet with any of  
the eulogists of ,homer declaring that  
he has been the educator of ,hellas1 and
 that he is profitable for education and
 for the ordering of human things1 and  
that you should take him up again and   
again and get to know him and regulate  

your whole life according to him1 we may
 love and honour those who say these    
things--they are excellent people1 as   
far as their lights extend2 and we are  
ready to acknowledge that ,homer is the 
greatest of poets and first of tragedy  
writers2 but we must remain firm in our 
conviction that hymns to the gods and   
praises of famous men are the only      
poetry which ought to be admitted into  
our ,state4  ,for if you go beyond this 
and allow the honeyed muse to enter1    
either in epic or lyric verse1 not law  
and the reason of mankind1 which by     
common consent have ever been deemed    
best1 but pleasure and pain will be the 
rulers in our ,state4  ,that is most    
true1 he said4  ,and now since we have  
reverted to the subject of poetry1 let  
this our defence serve to show the      
reasonableness of our former judgment in
 sending away out of our ,state an art  
having the tendencies which we have     
described2 for reason constrained us4   
,but that she may impute to us any      

harshness or want of politeness1 let us 
tell her that there is an ancient       
quarrel between philosophy and poetry2  
of which there are many proofs1 such as 
the saying of 'the yelping hound howling
 at her lord1' or of one 'mighty in the 
vain talk of fools1' and 'the mob of    
sages circumventing ,zeus1' and the     
'subtle thinkers who are beggars after  
all'2 and there are innumerable other   
signs of ancient enmity between them4   
,notwithstanding this1 let us assure our
 sweet friend and the sister arts of    
imitation that if she will only prove   
her title to exist in a well-ordered    
,state we shall be delighted to receive 
her--we are very conscious of her       
charms2 but we may not on that account  
betray the truth4  ,i dare say1         
,glaucon1 that you are as much charmed  
by her as ,i am1 especially when she    
appears in ,homer8  ,yes1 indeed1 ,i am 
greatly charmed4  ,shall ,i propose1    
then1 that she be allowed to return from
 exile1 but upon this condition         

only--that she make a defence of herself
 in lyrical or some other metre8        
,certainly4  ,and we may further grant  
to those of her defenders who are lovers
 of poetry and yet not poets the        
permission to speak in prose on her     
behalf3 let them show not only that she 
is pleasant but also useful to ,states  
and to human life1 and we will listen in
 a kindly spirit2 for if this can be    
proved we shall surely be the           
gainers--,i mean1 if there is a use in  
poetry as well as a delight8            
,certainly1 he said1 we shall the       
gainers4  ,if her defence fails1 then1  
my dear friend1 like other persons who  
are enamoured of something1 but put a   
restraint upon themselves when they     
think their desires are opposed to their
 interests1 so too must we after the    
manner of lovers give her up1 though not
 without a struggle4 ,we too are        
inspired by that love of poetry which   
the education of noble ,states has      
implanted in us1 and therefore we would 

have her appear at her best and truest2 
but so long as she is unable to make    
good her defence1 this argument of ours 
shall be a charm to us1 which we will   
repeat to ourselves while we listen to  
her strains2 that we may not fall away  
into the childish love of her which     
captivates the many4  ,at all events we 
are well aware that poetry being such as
 we have described is not to be regarded
 seriously as attaining to the truth2   
and he who listens to her1 fearing for  
the safety of the city which is within  
him1 should be on his guard against her 
seductions and make our words his law4  
,yes1 he said1 ,i quite agree with you4 
,yes1 ,i said1 my dear ,glaucon1 for    
great is the issue at stake1 greater    
than appears1 whether a man is to be    
good or bad4  ,and what will any one be 
profited if under the influence of      
honour or money or power1 aye1 or under 
the excitement of poetry1 he neglect    
justice and virtue8  ,yes1 he said2 ,i  
have been convinced by the argument1 as 

,i believe that any one else would have 
been4  ,and yet no mention has been made
 of the greatest prizes and rewards     
which await virtue4  ,what1 are there   
any greater still8  ,if there are1 they 
must be of an inconceivable greatness4  
,why1 ,i said1 what was ever great in a 
short time8  ,the whole period of       
threescore years and ten is surely but a
 little thing in comparison with        
eternity8  ,say rather 'nothing1' he    
replied4  ,and should an immortal being 
seriously think of this little space    
rather than of the whole8  ,of the      
whole1 certainly4  ,but why do you ask8 
,are you not aware1 ,i said1 that the   
soul of man is immortal and             
imperishable8  ,he looked at me in      
astonishment1 and said3  ,no1 by heaven3
 ,and are you really prepared to        
maintain this8  ,yes1 ,i said1 ,i ought 
to be1 and you too--there is no         
difficulty in proving it4  ,i see a     
great difficulty2 but ,i should like to 
hear you state this argument of which   

you make so light4  ,listen then4  ,i am
 attending4  ,there is a thing which you
 call good and another which you call   
evil8  ,yes1 he replied4  ,would you    
agree with me in thinking that the      
corrupting and destroying element is the
 evil1 and the saving and improving     
element the good8  ,yes4  ,and you admit
 that every thing has a good and also an
 evil2 as ophthalmia is the evil of the 
eyes and disease of the whole body2 as  
mildew is of corn1 and rot of timber1 or
 rust of copper and iron3 in everything1
 or in almost everything1 there is an   
inherent evil and disease8  ,yes1 he    
said4  ,and anything which is infected  
by any of these evils is made evil1 and 
at last wholly dissolves and dies8      
,true4  ,the vice and evil which is     
inherent in each is the destruction of  
each2 and if this does not destroy them 
there is nothing else that will2 for    
good certainly will not destroy them1   
nor again1 that which is neither good   
nor evil4  ,certainly not4  ,if1 then1  

we find any nature which having this    
inherent corruption cannot be dissolved 
or destroyed1 we may be certain that of 
such a nature there is no destruction8  
,that may be assumed4  ,well1 ,i said1  
and is there no evil which corrupts the 
soul8  ,yes1 he said1 there are all the 
evils which we were just now passing in 
review3  unrighteousness1 intemperance1 
cowardice1 ignorance4  ,but does any of 
these dissolve or destroy her8--and here
 do not let us fall into the error of   
supposing that the unjust and foolish   
man1 when he is detected1 perishes      
through his own injustice1 which is an  
evil of the soul4  ,take the analogy of 
the body3 ,the evil of the body is a    
disease which wastes and reduces and    
annihilates the body2 and all the things
 of which we were just now speaking come
 to annihilation through their own      
corruption attaching to them and        
inhering in them and so destroying them4
  ,is not this true8  ,yes4  ,consider  
the soul in like manner4  ,does the     

injustice or other evil which exists in 
the soul waste and consume her8  ,do    
they by attaching to the soul and       
inhering in her at last bring her to    
death1 and so separate her from the     
body8  ,certainly not4  ,and yet1 ,i    
said1 it is unreasonable to suppose that
 anything can perish from without       
through affection of external evil which
 could not be destroyed from within by a
 corruption of its own8  ,it is1 he     
replied4  ,consider1 ,i said1 ,glaucon1 
that even the badness of food1 whether  
staleness1 decomposition1 or any other  
bad quality1 when confined to the actual
 food1 is not supposed to destroy the   
body2 although1 if the badness of food  
communicates corruption to the body1    
then we should say that the body has    
been destroyed by a corruption of       
itself1 which is disease1 brought on by 
this2 but that the body1 being one      
thing1 can be destroyed by the badness  
of food1 which is another1 and which    
does not engender any natural           

infection--this we shall absolutely     
deny8  ,very true4  ,and1 on the same   
principle1 unless some bodily evil can  
produce an evil of the soul1 we must not
 suppose that the soul1 which is one    
thing1 can be dissolved by any merely   
external evil which belongs to another8 
,yes1 he said1 there is reason in that4 
,either then1 let us refute this        
conclusion1 or1 while it remains        
unrefuted1 let us never say that fever1 
or any other disease1 or the knife put  
to the throat1 or even the cutting up of
 the whole body into the minutest       
pieces1 can destroy the soul1 until she 
herself is proved to become more unholy 
or unrighteous in consequence of these  
things being done to the body2 but that 
the soul1 or anything else if not       
destroyed by an internal evil1 can be   
destroyed by an external one1 is not to 
be affirmed by any man4  ,and surely1 he
 replied1 no one will ever prove that   
the souls of men become more unjust in  
consequence of death4  ,but if some one 

who would rather not admit the          
immortality of the soul boldly denies   
this1 and says that the dying do really 
become more evil and unrighteous1 then1 
if the speaker is right1 ,i suppose that
 injustice1 like disease1 must be       
assumed to be fatal to the unjust1 and  
that those who take this disorder die by
 the natural inherent power of          
destruction which evil has1 and which   
kills them sooner or later1 but in quite
 another way from that in which1 at     
present1 the wicked receive death at the
 hands of others as the penalty of their
 deeds8  ,nay1 he said1 in that case    
injustice1 if fatal to the unjust1 will 
not be so very terrible to him1 for he  
will be delivered from evil4  ,but ,i   
rather suspect the opposite to be the   
truth1 and that injustice which1 if it  
have the power1 will murder others1     
keeps the murderer alive--aye1 and well 
awake too2 so far removed is her        
dwelling-place from being a house of    
death4  ,true1 ,i said2 if the inherent 

natural vice or evil of the soul is     
unable to kill or destroy her1 hardly   
will that which is appointed to be the  
destruction of some other body1 destroy 
a soul or anything else except that of  
which it was appointed to be the        
destruction4  ,yes1 that can hardly be4 
,but the soul which cannot be destroyed 
by an evil1 whether inherent or         
external1 must exist for ever1 and if   
existing for ever1 must be immortal8    
,certainly4  ,that is the conclusion1 ,i
 said2 and1 if a true conclusion1 then  
the souls must always be the same1 for  
if none be destroyed they will not      
diminish in number4  ,neither will they 
increase1 for the increase of the       
immortal natures must come from         
something mortal1 and all things would  
thus end in immortality4  ,very true4   
,but this we cannot believe--reason will
 not allow us--any more than we can     
believe the soul1 in her truest nature1 
to be full of variety and difference and
 dissimilarity4  ,what do you mean8 he  

said4  ,the soul1 ,i said1 being1 as is 
now proven1 immortal1 must be the       
fairest of compositions and cannot be   
compounded of many elements8  ,certainly
 not4  ,her immortality is demonstrated 
by the previous argument1 and there are 
many other proofs2 but to see her as she
 really is1 not as we now behold her1   
marred by communion with the body and   
other miseries1 you must contemplate her
 with the eye of reason1 in her original
 purity2 and then her beauty will be    
revealed1 and justice and injustice and 
all the things which we have described  
will be manifested more clearly4 ,thus  
far1 we have spoken the truth concerning
 her as she appears at present1 but we  
must remember also that we have seen her
 only in a condition which may be       
compared to that of the sea-god         
,glaucus1 whose original image can      
hardly be discerned because his natural 
members are broken off and crushed and  
damaged by the waves in all sorts of    
ways1 and incrustations have grown over 

them of seaweed and shells and stones1  
so that he is more like some monster    
than he is to his own natural form4     
,and the soul which we behold is in a   
similar condition1 disfigured by ten    
thousand ills4  ,but not there1         
,glaucon1 not there must we look4       
,where then8  ,at her love of wisdom4   
,let us see whom she affects1 and what  
society and converse she seeks in virtue
 of her near kindred with the immortal  
and eternal and divine2 also how        
different she would become if wholly    
following this superior principle1 and  
borne by a divine impulse out of the    
ocean in which she now is1 and          
disengaged from the stones and shells   
and things of earth and rock which in   
wild variety spring up around her       
because she feeds upon earth1 and is    
overgrown by the good things of this    
life as they are termed3  then you would
 see her as she is1 and know whether she
 has one shape only or many1 or what her
 nature is4  ,of her affections and of  

the forms which she takes in this       
present life ,i think that we have now  
said enough4  ,true1 he replied4  ,and  
thus1 ,i said1 we have fulfilled the    
conditions of the argument2 we have not 
introduced the rewards and glories of   
justice1 which1 as you were saying1 are 
to be found in ,homer and ,hesiod2 but  
justice in her own nature has been shown
 to be best for the soul in her own     
nature4 ,let a man do what is just1     
whether he have the ring of ,gyges or   
not1 and even if in addition to the ring
 of ,gyges he put on the helmet of      
,hades4  ,very true4  ,and now1         
,glaucon1 there will be no harm in      
further enumerating how many and how    
great are the rewards which justice and 
the other virtues procure to the soul   
from gods and men1 both in life and     
after death4  ,certainly not1 he said4  
,will you repay me1 then1 what you      
borrowed in the argument8  ,what did ,i 
borrow8  ,the assumption that the just  
man should appear unjust and the unjust 

just3  for you were of opinion that even
 if the true state of the case could not
 possibly escape the eyes of gods and   
men1 still this admission ought to be   
made for the sake of the argument1 in   
order that pure justice might be weighed
 against pure injustice4  ,do you       
remember8  ,i should be much to blame if
 ,i had forgotten4  ,then1 as the cause 
is decided1 ,i demand on behalf of      
justice that the estimation in which she
 is held by gods and men and which we   
acknowledge to be her due should now be 
restored to her by us2 since she has    
been shown to confer reality1 and not to
 deceive those who truly possess her1   
let what has been taken from her be     
given back1 that so she may win that    
palm of appearance which is hers also1  
and which she gives to her own4  ,the   
demand1 he said1 is just4  ,in the first
 place1 ,i said--and this is the first  
thing which you will have to give       
back--the nature both of the just and   
unjust is truly known to the gods4      

,granted4  ,and if they are both known  
to them1 one must be the friend and the 
other the enemy of the gods1 as we      
admitted from the beginning8  ,true4    
,and the friend of the gods may be      
supposed to receive from them all things
 at their best1 excepting only such evil
 as is the necessary consequence of     
former sins8  ,certainly4  ,then this   
must be our notion of the just man1 that
 even when he is in poverty or sickness1
 or any other seeming misfortune1 all   
things will in the end work together for
 good to him in life and death3 for the 
gods have a care of any one whose desire
 is to become just and to be like ,god1 
as far as man can attain the divine     
likeness1 by the pursuit of virtue8     
,yes1 he said2 if he is like ,god he    
will surely not be neglected by him4    
,and of the unjust may not the opposite 
be supposed8  ,certainly4  ,such1 then1 
are the palms of victory which the gods 
give the just8  ,that is my conviction4 
,and what do they receive of men8  ,look

 at things as they really are1 and you  
will see that the clever unjust are in  
the case of runners1 who run well from  
the starting-place to the goal but not  
back again from the goal3  they go off  
at a great pace1 but in the end only    
look foolish1 slinking away with their  
ears draggling on their shoulders1 and  
without a crown2 but the true runner    
comes to the finish and receives the    
prize and is crowned4  ,and this is the 
way with the just2 he who endures to the
 end of every action and occasion of his
 entire life has a good report and      
carries off the prize which men have to 
bestow4  ,true4  ,and now you must allow
 me to repeat of the just the blessings 
which you were attributing to the       
fortunate unjust4  ,i shall say of them1
 what you were saying of the others1    
that as they grow older1 they become    
rulers in their own city if they care to
 be2 they marry whom they like and give 
in marriage to whom they will2 all that 
you said of the others ,i now say of    

these4  ,and1 on the other hand1 of the 
unjust ,i say that the greater number1  
even though they escape in their youth1 
are found out at last and look foolish  
at the end of their course1 and when    
they come to be old and miserable are   
flouted alike by stranger and citizen2  
they are beaten and then come those     
things unfit for ears polite1 as you    
truly term them2 they will be racked and
 have their eyes burned out1 as you were
 saying4  ,and you may suppose that ,i  
have repeated the remainder of your tale
 of horrors4  ,but will you let me      
assume1 without reciting them1 that     
these things are true8  ,certainly1 he  
said1 what you say is true4  ,these1    
then1 are the prizes and rewards and    
gifts which are bestowed upon the just  
by gods and men in this present life1 in
 addition to the other good things which
 justice of herself provides4  ,yes1 he 
said2 and they are fair and lasting4    
,and yet1 ,i said1 all these are as     
nothing1 either in number or greatness  

in comparison with those other          
recompenses which await both just and   
unjust after death4  ,and you ought to  
hear them1 and then both just and unjust
 will have received from us a full      
payment of the debt which the argument  
owes to them4  ,speak1 he said2 there   
are few things which ,i would more      
gladly hear4  ,,socrates  ,well1 ,i     
said1 ,i will tell you a tale2 not one  
of the tales which ,odysseus tells to   
the hero ,alcinous1 yet this too is a   
tale of a hero1 ,er the son of          
,armenius1 a ,pamphylian by birth4  ,he 
was slain in battle1 and ten days       
afterwards1 when the bodies of the dead 
were taken up already in a state of     
corruption1 his body was found          
unaffected by decay1 and carried away   
home to be buried4  ,and on the twelfth 
day1 as he was lying on the funeral     
pile1 he returned to life and told them 
what he had seen in the other world4    
,he said that when his soul left the    
body he went on a journey with a great  

company1 and that they came to a        
mysterious place at which there were two
 openings in the earth2 they were near  
together1 and over against them were two
 other openings in the heaven above4    
,in the intermediate space there were   
judges seated1 who commanded the just1  
after they had given judgment on them   
and had bound their sentences in front  
of them1 to ascend by the heavenly way  
on the right hand2 and in like manner   
the unjust were bidden by them to       
descend by the lower way on the left    
hand2 these also bore the symbols of    
their deeds1 but fastened on their      
backs4  ,he drew near1 and they told him
 that he was to be the messenger who    
would carry the report of the other     
world to men1 and they bade him hear and
 see all that was to be heard and seen  
in that place4  ,then he beheld and saw 
on one side the souls departing at      
either opening of heaven and earth when 
sentence had been given on them2 and at 
the two other openings other souls1 some

 ascending out of the earth dusty and   
worn with travel1 some descending out of
 heaven clean and bright4  ,and arriving
 ever and anon they seemed to have come 
from a long journey1 and they went forth
 with gladness into the meadow1 where   
they encamped as at a festival2 and     
those who knew one another embraced and 
conversed1 the souls which came from    
earth curiously enquiring about the     
things above1 and the souls which came  
from heaven about the things beneath4   
,and they told one another of what had  
happened by the way1 those from below   
weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance
 of the things which they had endured   
and seen in their journey beneath the   
earth 7now the journey lasted a thousand
 years71 while those from above were    
describing heavenly delights and visions
 of inconceivable beauty4  ,the ,story1 
,glaucon1 would take too long to tell2  
but the sum was this3--,he said that for
 every wrong which they had done to any 
one they suffered tenfold2 or once in a 

hundred years--such being reckoned to be
 the length of man's life1 and the      
penalty being thus paid ten times in a  
thousand years4  ,if1 for example1 there
 were any who had been the cause of many
 deaths1 or had betrayed or enslaved    
cities or armies1 or been guilty of any 
other evil behaviour1 for each and all  
of their offences they received         
punishment ten times over1 and the      
rewards of beneficence and justice and  
holiness were in the same proportion4   
,i need hardly repeat what he said      
concerning young children dying almost  
as soon as they were born4  ,of piety   
and impiety to gods and parents1 and of 
murderers1 there were retributions other
 and greater far which he described4    
,he mentioned that he was present when  
one of the spirits asked another1       
',where is ,ardiaeus the ,great8' 7,now 
this ,ardiaeus lived a thousand years   
before the time of ,er3 he had been the 
tyrant of some city of ,pamphylia1 and  
had murdered his aged father and his    

elder brother1 and was said to have     
committed many other abominable crimes47
 ,the answer of the other spirit was3   
',he comes not hither and will never    
come4  ,and this1' said he1 'was one of 
the dreadful sights which we ourselves  
witnessed4  ,we were at the mouth of the
 cavern1 and1 having completed all our  
experiences1 were about to reascend1    
when of a sudden ,ardiaeus appeared and 
several others1 most of whom were       
tyrants2 and there were also besides the
 tyrants private individuals who had    
been great criminals3  they were just1  
as they fancied1 about to return into   
the upper world1 but the mouth1 instead 
of admitting them1 gave a roar1 whenever
 any of these incurable sinners or some 
one who had not been sufficiently       
punished tried to ascend2 and then wild 
men of fiery aspect1 who were standing  
by and heard the sound1 seized and      
carried them off2 and ,ardiaeus and     
others they bound head and foot and     
hand1 and threw them down and flayed    

them with scourges1 and dragged them    
along the road at the side1 carding them
 on thorns like wool1 and declaring to  
the passers-by what were their crimes1  
and that they were being taken away to  
be cast into hell4' ,and of all the many
 terrors which they had endured1 he said
 that there was none like the terror    
which each of them felt at that moment1 
lest they should hear the voice2 and    
when there was silence1 one by one they 
ascended with exceeding joy4  ,these1   
said ,er1 were the penalties and        
retributions1 and there were blessings  
as great4  ,now when the spirits which  
were in the meadow had tarried seven    
days1 on the eighth they were obliged to
 proceed on their journey1 and1 on the  
fourth day after1 he said that they came
 to a place where they could see from   
above a line of light1 straight as a    
column1 extending right through the     
whole heaven and through the earth1 in  
colour resembling the rainbow1 only     
brighter and purer2 another day's       

journey brought them to the place1 and  
there1 in the midst of the light1 they  
saw the ends of the chains of heaven let
 down from above3  for this light is the
 belt of heaven1 and holds together the 
circle of the universe1 like the        
under-girders of a trireme4  ,from these
 ends is extended the spindle of        
,necessity1 on which all the revolutions
 turn4 ,the shaft and hook of this      
spindle are made of steel1 and the whorl
 is made partly of steel and also partly
 of other materials4  ,now the whorl is 
in form like the whorl used on earth2   
and the description of it implied that  
there is one large hollow whorl which is
 quite scooped out1 and into this is    
fitted another lesser one1 and another1 
and another1 and four others1 making    
eight in all1 like vessels which fit    
into one another2 the whorls show their 
edges on the upper side1 and on their   
lower side all together form one        
continuous whorl4  ,this is pierced by  
the spindle1 which is driven home       

through the centre of the eighth4  ,the 
first and outermost whorl has the rim   
broadest1 and the seven inner whorls are
 narrower1 in the following             
proportions--the sixth is next to the   
first in size1 the fourth next to the   
sixth2 then comes the eighth2 the       
seventh is fifth1 the fifth is sixth1   
the third is seventh1 last and eighth   
comes the second4  ,the largest 7of     
fixed stars7 is spangled1 and the       
seventh 7or sun7 is brightest2 the      
eighth 7or moon7 coloured by the        
reflected light of the seventh2 the     
second and fifth 7,saturn and ,mercury7 
are in colour like one another1 and     
yellower than the preceding2 the third  
7,venus7 has the whitest light2 the     
fourth 7,mars7 is reddish2 the sixth    
7,jupiter7 is in whiteness second4  ,now
 the whole spindle has the same motion2 
but1 as the whole revolves in one       
direction1 the seven inner circles move 
slowly in the other1 and of these the   
swiftest is the eighth2 next in         

swiftness are the seventh1 sixth1 and   
fifth1 which move together2 third in    
swiftness appeared to move according to 
the law of this reversed motion the     
fourth2 the third appeared fourth and   
the second fifth4  ,the spindle turns on
 the knees of ,necessity2 and on the    
upper surface of each circle is a siren1
 who goes round with them1 hymning a    
single tone or note4  ,the eight        
together form one harmony2 and round    
about1 at equal intervals1 there is     
another band1 three in number1 each     
sitting upon her throne3 these are the  
,fates1 daughters of ,necessity1 who are
 clothed in white robes and have        
chaplets upon their heads1 ,lachesis and
 ,clotho and ,atropos1 who accompany    
with their voices the harmony of the    
sirens--,lachesis singing of the past1  
,clotho of the present1 ,atropos of the 
future2 ,clotho from time to time       
assisting with a touch of her right hand
 the revolution of the outer circle of  
the whorl or spindle1 and ,atropos with 

her left hand touching and guiding the  
inner ones1 and ,lachesis laying hold of
 either in turn1 first with one hand and
 then with the other4  ,when ,er and the
 spirits arrived1 their duty was to go  
at once to ,lachesis2 but first of all  
there came a prophet who arranged them  
in order2 then he took from the knees of
 ,lachesis lots and samples of lives1   
and having mounted a high pulpit1 spoke 
as follows3 ',hear the word of          
,lachesis1 the daughter of ,necessity4  
,mortal souls1 behold a new cycle of    
life and mortality4  ,your genius will  
not be allotted to you1 but you choose  
your genius2 and let him who draws the  
first lot have the first choice1 and the
 life which he chooses shall be his     
destiny4  ,virtue is free1 and as a man 
honours or dishonours her he will have  
more or less of her2 the responsibility 
is with the chooser--,god is justified4'
 ,when the ,interpreter had thus spoken 
he scattered lots indifferently among   
them all1 and each of them took up the  

lot which fell near him1 all but ,er    
himself 7he was not allowed71 and each  
as he took his lot perceived the number 
which he had obtained4 ,then the        
,interpreter placed on the ground before
 them the samples of lives2 and there   
were many more lives than the souls     
present1 and they were of all sorts4    
,there were lives of every animal and of
 man in every condition4  ,and there    
were tyrannies among them1 some lasting 
out the tyrant's life1 others which     
broke off in the middle and came to an  
end in poverty and exile and beggary2   
and there were lives of famous men1 some
 who were famous for their form and     
beauty as well as for their strength and
 success in games1 or1 again1 for their 
birth and the qualities of their        
ancestors2 and some who were the reverse
 of famous for the opposite qualities4  
,and of women likewise2 there was not1  
however1 any definite character them1   
because the soul1 when choosing a new   
life1 must of necessity become          

different4  ,but there was every other  
quality1 and the all mingled with one   
another1 and also with elements of      
wealth and poverty1 and disease and     
health2 and there were mean states also4
  ,and here1 my dear ,glaucon1 is the   
supreme peril of our human state2 and   
therefore the utmost care should be     
taken4  ,let each one of us leave every 
other kind of knowledge and seek and    
follow one thing only1 if peradventure  
he may be able to learn and may find    
some one who will make him able to learn
 and discern between good and evil1 and 
so to choose always and everywhere the  
better life as he has opportunity4  ,he 
should consider the bearing of all these
 things which have been mentioned       
severally and collectively upon virtue2 
he should know what the effect of beauty
 is when combined with poverty or wealth
 in a particular soul1 and what are the 
good and evil consequences of noble and 
humble birth1 of private and public     
station1 of strength and weakness1 of   

cleverness and dullness1 and of all the 
soul1 and the operation of them when    
conjoined2 he will then look at the     
nature of the soul1 and from the        
consideration of all these qualities he 
will be able to determine which is the  
better and which is the worse2 and so he
 will choose1 giving the name of evil to
 the life which will make his soul more 
unjust1 and good to the life which will 
make his soul more just2 all else he    
will disregard4  ,for we have seen and  
know that this is the best choice both  
in life and after death4  ,a man must   
take with him into the world below an   
adamantine faith in truth and right1    
that there too he may be undazzled by   
the desire of wealth or the other       
allurements of evil1 lest1 coming upon  
tyrannies and similar villainies1 he do 
irremediable wrongs to others and suffer
 yet worse himself2 but let him know how
 to choose the mean and avoid the       
extremes on either side1 as far as      
possible1 not only in this life but in  

all that which is to come4  ,for this is
 the way of happiness4  ,and according  
to the report of the messenger from the 
other world this was what the prophet   
said at the time3  ',even for the last  
comer1 if he chooses wisely and will    
live diligently1 there is appointed a   
happy and not undesirable existence4    
,let not him who chooses first be       
careless1 and let not the last despair4'
  ,and when he had spoken1 he who had   
the first choice came forward and in a  
moment chose the greatest tyranny2 his  
mind having been darkened by folly and  
sensuality1 he had not thought out the  
whole matter before he chose1 and did   
not at first sight perceive that he was 
fated1 among other evils1 to devour his 
own children4  ,but when he had time to 
reflect1 and saw what was in the lot1 he
 began to beat his breast and lament    
over his choice1 forgetting the         
proclamation of the prophet2 for1       
instead of throwing the blame of his    
misfortune on himself1 he accused chance

 and the gods1 and everything rather    
than himself4  ,now he was one of those 
who came from heaven1 and in a former   
life had dwelt in a well-ordered ,state1
 but his virtue was a matter of habit   
only1 and he had no philosophy4  ,and it
 was true of others who were similarly  
overtaken1 that the greater number of   
them came from heaven and therefore they
 had never been schooled by trial1      
whereas the pilgrims who came from      
earth1 having themselves suffered and   
seen others suffer1 were not in a hurry 
to choose4  ,and owing to this          
inexperience of theirs1 and also because
 the lot was a chance1 many of the souls
 exchanged a good destiny for an evil or
 an evil for a good4  ,for if a man had 
always on his arrival in this world     
dedicated himself from the first to     
sound philosophy1 and had been          
moderately fortunate in the number of   
the lot1 he might1 as the messenger     
reported1 be happy here1 and also his   
journey to another life and return to   

this1 instead of being rough and        
underground1 would be smooth and        
heavenly4  ,most curious1 he said1 was  
the spectacle--sad and laughable and    
strange2 for the choice of the souls was
 in most cases based on their experience
 of a previous life4  ,there he saw the 
soul which had once been ,orpheus       
choosing the life of a swan out of      
enmity to the race of women1 hating to  
be born of a woman because they had been
 his murderers2 he beheld also the soul 
of ,thamyras choosing the life of a     
nightingale2 birds1 on the other hand1  
like the swan and other musicians1      
wanting to be men4  ,the soul which     
obtained the twentieth lot chose the    
life of a lion1 and this was the soul of
 ,ajax the son of ,telamon1 who would   
not be a man1 remembering the injustice 
which was done him the judgment about   
the arms4  ,the next was ,agamemnon1 who
 took the life of an eagle1 because1    
like ,ajax1 he hated human nature by    
reason of his sufferings4  ,about the   

middle came the lot of ,atalanta2 she1  
seeing the great fame of an athlete1 was
 unable to resist the temptation3  and  
after her there followed the soul of    
,epeus the son of ,panopeus passing into
 the nature of a woman cunning in the   
arts2 and far away among the last who   
chose1 the soul of the jester ,thersites
 was putting on the form of a monkey4   
,there came also the soul of ,odysseus  
having yet to make a choice1 and his lot
 happened to be the last of them all4   
,now the recollection of former tolls   
had disenchanted him of ambition1 and he
 went about for a considerable time in  
search of the life of a private man who 
had no cares2 he had some difficulty in 
finding this1 which was lying about and 
had been neglected by everybody else2   
and when he saw it1 he said that he     
would have done the had his lot been    
first instead of last1 and that he was  
delighted to have it4  ,and not only did
 men pass into animals1 but ,i must also
 mention that there were animals tame   

and wild who changed into one another   
and into corresponding human            
natures--the good into the gentle and   
the evil into the savage1 in all sorts  
of combinations4  ,all the souls had now
 chosen their lives1 and they went in   
the order of their choice to ,lachesis1 
who sent with them the genius whom they 
had severally chosen1 to be the guardian
 of their lives and the fulfiller of the
 choice3  this genius led the souls     
first to ,clotho1 and drew them within  
the revolution of the spindle impelled  
by her hand1 thus ratifying the destiny 
of each2 and then1 when they were       
fastened to this1 carried them to       
,atropos1 who spun the threads and made 
them irreversible1 whence without       
turning round they passed beneath the   
throne of ,necessity2 and when they had 
all passed1 they marched on in a        
scorching heat to the plain of          
,forgetfulness1 which was a barren waste
 destitute of trees and verdure2 and    
then towards evening they encamped by   

the river of ,unmindfulness1 whose water
 no vessel can hold2 of this they were  
all obliged to drink a certain quantity1
 and those who were not saved by wisdom 
drank more than was necessary2 and each 
one as he drank forgot all things4  ,now
 after they had gone to rest1 about the 
middle of the night there was a         
thunderstorm and earthquake1 and then in
 an instant they were driven upwards in 
all manner of ways to their birth1 like 
stars shooting4  ,he himself was        
hindered from drinking the water4  ,but 
in what manner or by what means he      
returned to the body he could not say2  
only1 in the morning1 awaking suddenly1 
he found himself lying on the pyre4     
,and thus1 ,glaucon1 the tale has been  
saved and has not perished1 and will    
save us if we are obedient to the word  
spoken2 and we shall pass safely over   
the river of ,forgetfulness and our soul
 will not be defiled4  ,wherefore my    
counsel is that we hold fast ever to the
 heavenly way and follow after justice  

and virtue always1 considering that the 
soul is immortal and able to endure     
every sort of good and every sort of    
evil4  ,thus shall we live dear to one  
another and to the gods1 both while     
remaining here and when1 like conquerors
 in the games who go round to gather    
gifts1 we receive our reward4  ,and it  
shall be well with us both in this life 
and in the pilgrimage of a thousand     
years which we have been describing4