,,the ,,memorabilia ,recollections of ,socrates ,by ,xenophon ,translated by ,h4 ,g4 ,dakyns ,xenophon the ,athenian was born #dca ,b4,c4 ,he was a pupil of ,socrates4 ,he marched with the ,spartans1 and was exiled from ,athens4 ,sparta gave him land and property in ,scillus1 where he lived for many years before having to move once more1 to settle in ,corinth4 ,he died in #ced ,b4,c4 ,the ,memorabilia is a recollection of ,socrates in word and deed1 to show his character as the best and happiest of men4 ,,preparer',s ,,note ,first ,published #ahig by ,macmillan and ,co4 ,this was typed from ,dakyns' series1 ,the ,works of ,xenophon1 a four-volume set4 ,the complete list of ,xenophon's works 7though there is doubt about some of these7 is3 ,work ,number of books ,the ,anabasis #g ,the ,hellenica #g ,the ,cyropaedia #h ,the ,memorabilia #d ,the ,symposium #a ,the ,economist #a ,on ,horsemanship #a ,the ,sportsman #a ,the ,cavalry ,general #a ,the ,apology #a ,on ,revenues #a ,the ,hiero #a ,the ,agesilaus #a ,the ,polity of the ,athenians and the ,lacedaemonians #b ,text in brackets is my transliteration of ,greek text into ,english using an ,oxford ,english ,dictionary alphabet table4 ,the diacritical marks have been lost4 ,,the ,,memorabilia or ,recollections of ,socrates ,,book ,i ,i ,i have often wondered by what arguments those who indicted 7#a7 ,socrates could have persuaded the ,athenians that his life was justly forfeit to the state4 ,the indictment was to this effect3 ,socrates is guilty of crime in refusing to recognise the gods acknowledged by the state1 and importing strange divinities of his own2 he is further guilty of corrupting the young4 7#a7 oi grapsamenoi ,meletus 7below1 ,,iv4 iv4 #d1 viii4 #d2 ,apol4 #aa1 #ai71 ,anytus 7,apol4 #bi71 and ,lycon4 ,see ,plat4 ,apol4 ,,ii4 v4 #ah2 ,diog4 ,laert4 ,,ii4 v4 7,socr472 ,m4 ,schanz1 ,plat4 ,apol4 mit deutschen ,kemmentar1 ,einleitung1 ,s4 #e foll4 ,in the first place1 what evidence did they produce that ,socrates refused to recognise the gods acknowledged by the state8 ,was it that he did not sacrifice8 or that he dispensed with divination8 ,on the contrary1 he was often to be seen engaged in sacrifice1 at home or at the common altars of the state4 ,nor was his dependence on divination less manifest4 ,indeed that saying of his1 ,a divinity 7#b7 gives me a sign1 was on everybody's lips4 ,so much so that1 if ,i am not mistaken1 it lay at the root of the imputation that he imported novel divinities2 though there was no greater novelty in his case than in that of other believers in oracular help1 who commonly rely on omens of all sorts3 the flight or cry of birds1 the utterances of man1 chance meetings1 7#c7 or a victim's entrails4 ,even according to the popular conception1 it is not the mere fowl1 it is not the chance individual one meets1 who knows what things are profitable for a man1 but it is the gods who vouchsafe by such instruments to signify the same4 ,this was also the tenet of ,socrates4 ,only1 whereas men ordinarily speak of being turned aside1 or urged onwards by birds1 or other creatures encountered on the path1 ,socrates suited his language to his conviction4 ,the divinity1 said he1 gives me a sign4 ,further1 he would constantly advise his associates to do this1 or beware of doing that1 upon the authority of this same divine voice2 and1 as a matter of fact1 those who listened to his warnings prospered1 whilst he who turned a deaf ear to them repented afterwards4 7#d7 ,yet1 it will be readily conceded1 he would hardly desire to present himself to his everyday companions in the character of either knave or fool4 ,whereas he would have appeared to be both1 supposing 7#e7 the ,god-given revelations had but revealed his own proneness to deception4 ,it is plain he would not have ventured on forecast at all1 but for his belief that the words he spoke would in fact be verified4 ,then on whom1 or what1 was the assurance rooted1 if not upon ,god8 ,and if he had faith in the gods1 how could he fail to recognise them8 7#b7 ,or1 ,a divine something4 ,see ,encyc4 ,brit4 ,socrates4 ,dr4 ,h4 ,jackason2 ,the ,daemon of ,socrates1 ,f4 ,w4 ,h4 ,myers2 ,k4 ,joel1 ,der echte und der ,xenophontische ,sokrates1 i4 p4 #gj foll42 cf4 ,aristot4 ,m4 ,m4 #aahb a #aj4 7#c7 ,see ,aesch4 ,p4 ,v4 #dhg1 enodious te sombolous1 and pathway tokens1 ,l4 ,campbell2 ,arist4 ,birds1 #gba1 sombolon ornin3 ,frogs1 #aif1 to sometukhon exion2 ,eccl4 #gib2 ,hor4 ,od4 iii4 #bg1 #a-g4 7#d7 ,see ,anab4 ,,iii4 i4 #d2 ,symp4 iv4 #dh4 7#e7 ,or1 if his vaunted manifestations from heaven had but manifested the falsity of his judgment4 ,but his mode of dealing with his intimates has another aspect4 ,as regards the ordinary necessities of life1 7#f7 his advice was1 ,act as you believe 7#g7 these things may best be done4 ,but in the case of those darker problems1 the issues of which are incalculable1 he directed his friends to consult the oracle1 whether the business should be undertaken or not4 ,no one1 he would say1 who wishes to manage a house or city with success3 no one aspiring to guide the helm of state aright1 can afford to dipense with aid from above4 ,doubtless1 skill in carpentering1 building1 smithying1 farming1 of the art of governing men1 together with the theory of these processes1 and the sciences of arithmetic1 economy1 strategy1 are affairs of study1 and within the grasp of human intelligence4 ,yet there is a side even of these1 and that not the least important1 which the gods reserve to themselves1 the bearing of which is hidden from mortal vision4 ,thus1 let a man sow a field or plant a farm never so well1 yet he cannot foretell who will gather in the fruits3 another may build him a house of fairest proportion1 yet he knows not who will inhabit it4 ,neither can a general foresee whether it will profit him to conduct a campaign1 nor a politician be certain whether his leadership will turn to evil or good4 ,nor can the man who weds a fair wife1 looking forward to joy1 know whether through her he shall not reap sorrow4 ,neither can he who has built up a powerful connection in the state know whether he shall not by means of it be cast out of his city4 ,to suppose that all these matters lay within the scope of human judgment1 to the exclusion of the preternatural1 was preternatural folly4 ,nor was it less extravagant to go and consult the will of ,heaven on any questions which it is given to us to decide by dint of learning4 ,as though a man should inquire1 ,am ,i to choose an expert driver as my coachman1 or one who has never handled the reins8 ,shall ,i appoint a mariner to be skipper of my vessel1 or a landsman8 ,and so with respect to all we may know by numbering1 weighing1 and measuring4 ,to seek advice from ,heaven on such points was a sort of profanity4 ,our duty is plain1 he would observe2 where we are permitted to work through our natural faculties1 there let us by all means apply them4 ,but in things which are hidden1 let us seek to gain knowledge from above1 by divination2 for the gods1 he added1 grant signs to those to whom they will be gracious4 7#f7 ,or1 in the sphere of the determined1 ta anagkaia certa1 quorum eventus est necessarius2 things positive1 the law-ordained department of life1 as we might say4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 i4 ch4 xvi4 #ejj and passim4 7#g7 ,reading os nomizoien1 or if os enomizen1 translate ,as to things with certain results1 he advised them to do them in the way in which he believed they would be done best2 i4e4 he did not say1 follow your conscience1 but1 this course seems best to me under the circumstances4 ,again1 ,socrates ever lived in the public eye2 at early morning he was to be seen betaking himself to one of the promenades1 or wrestling-grounds2 at noon he would appear with the gathering crowds in the market-place2 and as day declined1 wherever the largest throng might be encountered1 there was he to be found1 talking for the most part1 while any one who chose might stop and listen4 ,yet no one ever heard him say1 or saw him do anything impious or irreverent4 ,indeed1 in contrast to others he set his face against all discussion of such high matters as the nature of the ,universe2 how the kosmos1 as the savants 7#h7 phrase it1 came into being2 7#i7 or by what forces the celestial phenomena arise4 ,to trouble one's brain about such matters was1 he argued1 to play the fool4 ,he would ask first3 ,did these investigators feel their knowledge of things human so complete that they betook themselves to these lofty speculations8 ,or did they maintain that they were playing their proper parts in thus neglecting the affairs of man to speculate on the concerns of ,god8 ,he was astonished they did not see how far these problems lay beyond mortal ken2 since even those who pride themselves most on their discussion of these points differ from each other1 as madmen do4 ,for just as some madmen1 he said1 have no apprehension of what is truly terrible1 others fear where no fear is2 some are ready to say and do anything in public without the slightest symptom of shame2 7#aj7 others think they ought not so much as to set foot among their fellow-men2 some honour neither temple1 nor altar1 nor aught else sacred to the name of ,god2 others bow down to stocks and stones and worship the very beasts3--so is it with those thinkers whose minds are cumbered with cares 7#aa7 concerning the ,universal ,nature4 ,one sect 7#ab7 has discovered that ,being is one and indivisible4 ,another 7#ac7 that it is infinite in number4 ,if one 7#ad7 proclaims that all things are in a continual flux1 another 7#ae7 replies that nothing can possibly be moved at any time4 ,the theory of the universe as a process of birth and death is met by the counter theory1 that nothing ever could be born or ever will die4 7#h7 ,lit4 the sophists4 ,see ,h4 ,sidgwick1 ,j4 of ,philol4 iv4 #ahgb2 v4 #ahgd4 7#i7 ,reading ephu4 ,cf4 ,lucian1 ,icaromenip4 xlvi4 #d1 in imitation of this passage apparently2 or if ekhei1 translate is arranged4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #egc4 7#aj7 ,see ,anab4 ,v4 iv4 #cj4 7#aa7 ,see ,arist4 ,clouds1 #aja1 merimnophrontistai kaloi te kagathoi4 7#ab7 e4g4 ,xenophanes and ,parmenides1 see ,grote1 ,plato1 ,i4 i4 #af foll4 7#ac7 e4g4 ,leucippus and ,democritus1 ib4 #fc foll4 7#ad7 e4g4 ,heraclitus1 ib4 #bg foll4 7#ae7 e4g4 ,zeno1 ib4 ii4 #if4 ,but the questioning of ,socrates on the merits of these speculators sometimes took another form4 ,the student of human learning expects1 he said1 to make something of his studies for the benefit of himself or others1 as he likes4 ,do these explorers into the divine operations hope that when they have discovered by what forces the various phenomena occur1 they will create winds and waters at will and fruitful seasons8 ,will they manipulate these and the like to suit their needs8 or has no such notion perhaps ever entered their heads1 and will they be content simply to know how such things come into existence8 ,but if this was his mode of describing those who meddle with such matters as these1 he himself never wearied of discussing human topics4 ,what is piety8 what is impiety8 ,what is the beautiful8 what the ugly8 ,what the noble8 what the base8 ,what are meant by just and unjust8 what by sobriety and madness8 what by courage and cowardice8 ,what is a state8 what is a statesman8 what is a ruler over men8 what is a ruling character8 and other like problems1 the knowledge of which1 as he put it1 conferred a patent of nobility on the possessor1 7#af7 whereas those who lacked the knowledge might deservedly be stigmatised as slaves4 7#af7 ,or1 was distinctive of the 'beautiful and good4' ,for the phrase see below1 ii4 #b et passim4 ,now1 in so far as the opinions of ,socrates were unknown to the world at large1 it is not surprising that the court should draw false conclusions respecting them2 but that facts patent to all should have been ignored is indeed astonishing4 ,at one time ,socrates was a member of the ,council1 7#ag7 he had taken the senatorial oath1 and sworn as a member of that house to act in conformity with the laws4 ,it was thus he chanced to be ,president of the ,popular ,assembly1 7#ah7 when that body was seized with a desire to put the nine 7#ai7 generals1 ,thrasyllus1 ,erasinides1 and the rest1 to death by a single inclusive vote4 ,whereupon1 in spite of the bitter resentment of the people1 and the menaces of several influential citizens1 he refused to put the question1 esteeming it of greater importance faithfully to abide by the oath which he had taken1 than to gratify the people wrongfully1 or to screen himself from the menaces of the mighty4 ,the fact being1 that with regard to the care bestowed by the gods upon men1 his belief differed widely from that of the multitude4 ,whereas most people seem to imagine that the gods know in part1 and are ignorant in part1 ,socrates believed firmly that the gods know all things--both the things that are said and the things that are done1 and the things that are counselled in the silent chambers of the heart4 ,moreover1 they are present everywhere1 and bestow signs upon man concerning all the things of man4 7#ag7 ,or ,senate4 ,lit4 the ,boule4 7#ah7 ,lit4 ,epistates of the ,ecclesia4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #bga2 ,plat4 ,apol4 #cb ,b4 7#ai7 ennea would seem to be a slip of the pen for okto1 eight4 ,see ,hell4 ,i4 v4 #af2 vi4 #af2 vi4 #bi2 vii4 #a foll4 ,i can1 therefore1 but repeat my former words4 ,it is a marvel to me how the ,athenians came to be persuaded that ,socrates fell short of sober-mindedness as touching the gods4 ,a man who never ventured one impious word or deed against the gods we worship1 but whose whole language concerning them1 and his every act1 closely coincided1 word for word1 and deed for deed1 with all we deem distinctive of devoutest piety4 ,,ii ,no less surprising to my mind is the belief that ,socrates corrupted the young4 ,this man1 who1 beyond what has been already stated1 kept his appetites and passions under strict control1 who was pre-eminently capable of enduring winter's cold and summer's heat and every kind of toil1 who was so schooled to curtail his needs that with the scantiest of means he never lacked sufficiency--is it credible that such a man could have made others irreverent or lawless1 or licentious1 or effeminate in face of toil8 ,was he not rather the saving of many through the passion for virtue which he roused in them1 and the hope he infused that through careful management of themselves they might grow to be truly beautiful and good--not indeed that he ever undertook to be a teacher of virtue1 but being evidently virtuous himself he made those who associated with him hope that by imitating they might at last resemble him4 ,but let it not be inferred that he was negligent of his own body or approved of those who neglected theirs4 ,if excess of eating1 counteracted by excess of toil1 was a dietary of which he disapproved1 7#a7 to gratify the natural claim of appetite in conjunction with moderate exercise was a system he favoured1 as tending to a healthy condition of the body without trammelling the cultivation of the spirit4 ,on the other hand1 there was nothing dandified or pretentious about him2 he indulged in no foppery of shawl or shoes1 or other effeminacy of living4 7#a7 ,see 7,plat47 ,erast4 #acb ,c4 ,least of all did he tend to make his companions greedy of money4 ,he would not1 while restraining passion generally1 make capital out of the one passion which attached others to himself2 and by this abstinence1 he believed1 he was best consulting his own freedom2 in so much that he stigmatised those who condescended to take wages for their society as vendors of their own persons1 because they were compelled to discuss for the benefits of their paymasters4 ,what surprised him was that any one possessing virtue should deign to ask money as its price instead of simply finding his reward in the acquisition of an honest friend1 as if the new-fledged soul of honour could forget her debt of gratitude to her greatest benefactor4 ,for himself1 without making any such profession1 he was content to believe that those who accepted his views would play their parts as good and true friends to himself and one another their lives long4 ,once more then3 how should a man of this character corrupt the young8 unless the careful cultivation of virtue be corruption4 ,but1 says the accuser1 7#b7 by all that's sacred6 did not ,socrates cause his associates to despise the established laws when he dwelt on the folly of appointing state officers by ballot8 7#c7 a principle which1 he said1 no one would care to apply in selecting a pilot or a flute-player or in any similar case1 where a mistake would be far less disastrous than in matters political4 ,words like these1 according to the accuser1 tended to incite the young to contemn the established constitution1 rendering them violent and headstrong4 ,but for myself ,i think that those who cultivate wisdom and believe themselves able to instruct their fellow-citizens as to their interests are least likely to become partisans of violence4 ,they are too well aware that to violence attach enmities and dangers1 whereas results as good may be obtained by persuasion safely and amicably4 ,for the victim of violence hates with vindictiveness as one from whom something precious has been stolen1 while the willing subject of persuasion is ready to kiss the hand which has done him a service4 ,hence compulsion is not the method of him who makes wisdom his study1 but of him who wields power untempered by reflection4 ,once more3 the man who ventures on violence needs the support of many to fight his battles1 while he whose strength lies in persuasiveness triumphs single-handed1 for he is conscious of a cunning to compel consent unaided4 ,and what has such a one to do with the spilling of blood8 since how ridiculous it were to do men to death rather than turn to account the trusty service of the living4 7#b7 o kategoros ,polycrates possibly4 ,see ,m4 ,schantz1 op4 cit41 ,einleitun1 ,s4 #f3 ,die ,anklagerede des ,polykrates2 ,introduction1 p4 xxxii4 foll4 7#c7 i4e4 staking the election of a magistrate on the colour of a bean4 ,see ,aristot4 ,ath4 ,pol4 viii4 #b1 and ,dr4 ,sandys ad loc4 ,but1 the accuser answers1 the two men 7#d7 who wrought the greatest evils to the state at any time--to wit1 ,critias and ,alcibiades--were both companions of ,socrates--,critias the oligarch1 and ,alcibiades the democrat4 ,where would you find a more arrant thief1 savage1 and murderer 7#e7 than the one8 where such a portent of insolence1 incontinence1 and high-handedness as the other8 ,for my part1 in so far as these two wrought evil to the state1 ,i have no desire to appear as the apologist of either4 ,i confine myself to explaining what this intimacy of theirs with ,socrates really was4 7#d7 ,see ,hell4 ,i4 and ,,ii4 passim4 7#e7 ,reading kleptistatos te kai biaiotatos kai phonikotatos1 or if pleonektistatos te kai biaiotatis1 translate such a manner of greed and violence as the one1 of insolence1 etc41 as the other8 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #ccg4 ,never were two more ambitious citizens seen at ,athens4 ,ambition was in their blood4 ,if they were to have their will1 all power was to be in their hands2 their fame was to eclipse all other4 ,of ,socrates they knew--first that he lived an absolutely independent life on the scantiest means2 next that he was self-disciplined to the last degree in respect of pleasures2 lastly that he was so formidable in debate that there was no antagonist he could not twist round his little finger4 ,such being their views1 and such the character of the pair1 which is the more probable3 that they sought the society of ,socrates because they felt the fascination of his life1 and were attracted by the bearing of the man8 or because they thought1 if only we are leagued with him we shall become adepts in statecraft and unrivalled in the arts of speech and action8 ,for my part ,i believe that if the choice from ,heaven had been given them to live such a life as they saw ,socrates living to its close1 or to die1 they would both have chosen death4 ,their acts are a conclusive witness to their characters4 ,they no sooner felt themselves to be the masters of those they came in contact with than they sprang aside from ,socrates and plunged into that whirl of politics but for which they might never have sought his society4 ,it may be objected3 before giving his companions lessons in politics ,socrates had better have taught them sobriety4 7#f7 ,without disputing the principle1 ,i would point out that a teacher cannot fail to discover to his pupils his method of carrying out his own precepts1 and this along with argumentative encouragement4 ,now ,i know that ,socrates disclosed himself to his companions as a beautiful and noble being1 who would reason and debate with them concerning virtue and other human interests in the noblest manner4 ,and of these two ,i know that as long as they were companions of ,socrates even they were temperate1 not assuredly from fear of being fined or beaten by ,socrates1 but because they were persuaded for the nonce of the excellence of such conduct4 7#f7 sophrosune sound-mindedness1 temperence4 ,see below1 ,,iv4 iii4 #a4 ,perhaps some self-styled philosophers 7#g7 may here answer3 ,nay1 the man truly just can never become unjust1 the temperate man can never become intemperate1 the man who has learnt any subject of knowledge can never be as though he had learnt it not4 ,that1 however1 is not my own conclusion4 ,it is with the workings of the soul as with those of the body2 want of exercise of the organ leads to inability of function1 here bodily1 there spiritual1 so that we can neither do the things that we should nor abstain from the things we should not4 ,and that is why fathers keep their sons1 however temperate they may be1 out of the reach of wicked men1 considering that if the society of the good is a training in virtue so also is the society of the bad its dissolution4 7#g7 ,in reference to some such tenet as that of ,antisthenes ap4 ,diog4 ,laert4 ,,vi4 ix4 #cj1 areskei d' autois kai ten areten didakten einai1 katha phesin ',antisthenes en to ',rraklei kai anapobleton uparkhein4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,protag4 #cdj ,d1 #cdd ,d4 ,to this the poet 7#h7 is a witness1 who says3 ,from the noble thou shalt be instructed in nobleness2 but1 and if thou minglest with the base thou wilt destroy what wisdom thou hast now2 ,and he 7#i7 who says3 ,but the good man has his hour of baseness as well as his hour of virtue-- to whose testimony ,i would add my own4 ,for ,i see that it is impossible to remember a long poem without practice and repetition2 so is forgetfulness of the words of instruction engendered in the heart that has ceased to value them4 ,with the words of warning fades the recollection of the very condition of mind in which the soul yearned after holiness2 and once forgetting this1 what wonder that the man should let slip also the memory of virtue itself6 ,again ,i see that a man who falls into habits of drunkenness or plunges headlong into licentious love1 loses his old power of practising the right and abstaining from the wrong4 ,many a man who has found frugality easy whilst passion was cold1 no sooner falls in love than he loses the faculty at once1 and in his prodigal expenditure of riches he will no longer withhold his hand from gains which in former days were too base to invite his touch4 ,where then is the difficulty of supposing that a man may be temperate to-day1 and to-morrow the reverse2 or that he who once has had it in his power to act virtuously may not quite lose that power8 7#aj7 ,to myself1 at all events1 it seems that all beautiful and noble things are the result of constant practice and training2 and pre-eminently the virtue of temperance1 seeing that in one and the same bodily frame pleasures are planted and spring up side by side with the soul and keep whispering in her ear1 ,have done with self-restraint1 make haste to gratify us and the body4 7#aa7 7#h7 ,theognis1 #ce1 #cf4 ,see ,symp4 ii4 #d2 ,plat4 ,men4 #ie ,d4 7#i7 ,the author is unknown4 ,see ,plat4 ,protag4 l4c4 7#aj7 ,cf4 ,cyrop4 ,v4 i4 #i foll42 ,,vi4 i4 #da4 7#aa7 ,see my remarks1 ,hellenica ,essays1 p4 #cga foll4 ,but to return to ,critias and ,alcibiades1 ,i repeat that as long as they lived with ,socrates they were able by his support to dominate their ignoble appetites2 7#ab7 but being separated from him1 ,critias had to fly to ,thessaly1 7#ac7 where he consorted with fellows better versed in lawlessness than justice4 ,and ,alcibiades fared no better4 ,his personal beauty on the one hand incited bevies of fine ladies 7#ad7 to hunt him down as fair spoil1 while on the other hand his influence in the state and among the allies exposed him to the corruption of many an adept in the arts of flattery2 honoured by the democracy and stepping easily to the front rank he behaved like an athlete who in the games of the ,palaestra is so assured of victory that he neglects his training2 thus he presently forgot the duty which he owed himself4 7#ab7 ,cf4 7,plat47 ,theag4 #acj ,a4 7#ac7 ,see ,hell4 ,,ii4 iii4 #cf4 7#ad7 ,cf4 ,plut4 ,ages41 ,alcib4 ,such were the misadventures of these two4 ,is the sequel extraordinary8 ,inflated with the pride of ancestry1 7#ae7 exalted by their wealth1 puffed up by power1 sapped to the soul's core by a host of human tempters1 separate moreover for many a long day from ,socrates--what wonder that they reached the full stature of arrogancy6 ,and for the offences of these two ,socrates is to be held responsible6 ,the accuser will have it so4 ,but for the fact that in early days1 when they were both young and of an age when dereliction from good feeling and self-restraint might have been expected1 this same ,socrates kept them modest and well-behaved1 not one word of praise is uttered by the accuser for all this4 ,that is not the measure of justice elsewhere meted4 ,would a master of the harp or flute1 would a teacher of any sort who has turned out proficient pupils1 be held to account because one of them goes away to another teacher and turns out to be a failure8 ,or what father1 if he have a son who in the society of a certain friend remains an honest lad1 but falling into the company of some other becomes a good-for-nothing1 will that father straightway accuse the earlier instructor8 ,will not he rather1 in proportion as the boy deteriorates in the company of the latter1 bestow more heartfelt praise upon the former8 ,what father1 himself sharing the society of his own children1 is held to blame for their transgressions1 if only his own goodness be established8 ,here would have been a fair test to apply to ,socrates3 ,was he guilty of any base conduct himself8 ,if so let him be set down as a knave1 but if1 on the contrary1 he never faltered in sobriety from beginning to end1 how in the name of justice is he to be held to account for a baseness which was not in him8 7#ae7 ,or1 became overweening in arrogance4 ,cf4 ,henry ,,viii4 ,,ii4 iv4 #aaj3 ,but your heart is crammed with arrogancy1 spleen1 and pride4 ,i go further3 if1 short of being guilty of any wrong himself1 he saw the evil doings of others with approval1 reason were he should be held blameworthy4 ,listen then3 ,socrates was well aware that ,critias was attached to ,euthydemus1 7#af7 aware too that he was endeavouring to deal by him after the manner of those wantons whose love is carnal of the body4 ,from this endeavour he tried to deter him1 pointing out how illiberal a thing it was1 how ill befitting a man of honour to appear as a beggar before him whom he loved1 in whose eyes he would fain be precious1 ever petitioning for something base to give and base to get4 7#af7 ,see below1 ,,iv4 ii4 #a 7if the same person74 ,but when this reasoning fell on deaf ears and ,critias refused to be turned aside1 ,socrates1 as the story goes1 took occasion of the presence of a whole company and of ,euthydemus to remark that ,critias appeared to be suffering from a swinish affection1 or else why this desire to rub himself against ,euthydemus like a herd of piglings scraping against stones4 ,the hatred of ,critias to ,socrates doubtless dates from this incident4 ,he treasured it up against him1 and afterwards1 when he was one of the ,thirty and associated with ,charicles as their official lawgiver1 7#ag7 he framed the law against teaching the art of words 7#ah7 merely from a desire to vilify ,socrates4 ,he was at a loss to know how else to lay hold of him except by levelling against him the vulgar charge 7#ai7 against philosophers1 by which he hoped to prejudice him with the public4 ,it was a charge quite unfounded as regards ,socrates1 if ,i may judge from anything ,i ever heard fall from his lips myself or have learnt about him from others4 ,but the animus of ,critias was clear4 ,at the time when the ,thirty were putting citizens1 highly respectable citizens1 to death wholesale1 and when they were egging on one man after another to the commission of crime1 ,socrates let fall an observation3 ,it would be sufficiently extraordinary if the keeper of a herd of cattle 7#bj7 who was continually thinning and impoverishing his cattle did not admit himself to be a sorry sort of herdsman1 but that a ruler of the state who was continually thinning and impoverishing the citizens should neither be ashamed nor admit himself to be a sorry sort of ruler was more extraordinary still4 ,the remark being reported to the government1 ,socrates was summoned by ,critias and ,charicles1 who proceeded to point out the law and forbade him to converse with the young4 ,was it open to him1 ,socrates inquired of the speaker1 in case he failed to understand their commands in any point1 to ask for an explanation8 7#ag7 ,lit4 ,nomothetes4 ,see ,hell4 ,,ii4 iii4 #b2 ,dem4 #gjf4 ,for ,charicles see ,lys4 c4 ,eratosth4 ,s4 #ef2 ,aristot4 ,pol4 v4 #f4 #f4 7#ah7 ,see ,diog4 ,laert4 ,,ii4 v4 7,socr47 7#ai7 i4e4 to ton etto logon kreitto poiein1 of making the worse appear the better cause4 ,cf4 ,arist4 ,clouds4 7#bj7 ,see ,dio ,chrys4 ,or4 #dc4 ,certainly1 the two assented4 ,then ,socrates3 ,i am prepared to obey the laws1 but to avoid transgression of the law through ignorance ,i need instruction3 is it on the supposition that the art of words tends to correctness of statement or to incorrectness that you bid us abstain from it8 for if the former1 it is clear we must abstain from speaking correctly1 but if the latter1 our endeavour should be to amend our speech4 ,to which ,charicles1 in a fit of temper1 retorted3 ,in consideration of your ignorance1 7#ba7 ,socrates1 we will frame the prohibition in language better suited to your intelligence3 we forbid you to hold any conversation whatsoever with the young4 7#ba7 ,see ,aristot4 de ,soph4 ,el4 #ahc b#g4 ,then ,socrates3 ,to avoid all ambiguity then1 or the possibility of my doing anything else than what you are pleased to command1 may ,i ask you to define up to what age a human being is to be considered young8 ,for just so long a time 7,charicles answered7 as he is debarred from sitting as a member of the ,council1 7#bb7 as not having attained to the maturity of wisdom2 accordingly you will not hold converse with any one under the age of thirty4 7#bb7 ,the ,boule or ,senate4 ,see ,w4 ,l4 ,newman1 ,pol4 ,aristot4 i4 #cbf4 ,soc4 ,in making a purchase even1 ,i am not to ask1 what is the price of this8 if the vendor is under the age of thirty8 ,cha4 ,tut1 things of that sort3 but you know1 ,socrates1 that you have a way of asking questions1 when all the while you know how the matter stands4 ,let us have no questions of that sort4 ,soc4 ,nor answers either1 ,i suppose1 if the inquiry concerns what ,i know1 as1 for instance1 where does ,charicles live8 or where is ,critias to be found8 ,oh yes1 of course1 things of that kind 7replied ,charicles71 while ,critias added3 ,but at the same time you had better have done with your shoemakers1 carpenters1 and coppersmiths4 7#bc7 ,these must be pretty well trodden out at heel by this time1 considering the circulation you have given them4 7#bc7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,gorg4 #dia ,a2 ,symp4 #bba ,e2 ,dio ,chrys4 ,or4 #ee1 #efj ,d1 #efd ,a4 ,soc4 ,and am ,i to hold away from their attendant topics also--the just1 the holy1 and the like8 ,most assuredly 7answered ,charicles71 and from cowherds in particular2 or else see that you do not lessen the number of the herd yourself4 ,thus the secret was out4 ,the remark of ,socrates about the cattle had come to their ears1 and they could not forgive the author of it4 ,perhaps enough has been said to explain the kind of intimacy which had subsisted between ,critias and ,socrates1 and their relation to one another4 ,but ,i will venture to maintain that where the teacher is not pleasing to the pupil there is no education4 ,now it cannot be said of ,critias and ,alcibiades that they associated with ,socrates because they found him pleasing to them4 ,and this is true of the whole period4 ,from the first their eyes were fixed on the headship of the state as their final goal4 ,during the time of their intimacy with ,socrates there were no disputants whom they were more eager to encounter than professed politicians4 ,thus the story is told of ,alcibiades--how before the age of twenty he engaged his own guardian1 ,pericles1 at that time prime minister of the state1 in a discussion concerning laws4 ,alc4 ,please1 ,pericles1 can you teach me what a law is8 ,per4 ,to be sure ,i can4 ,alc4 ,i should be so much obliged if you would do so4 ,one so often hears the epithet law-abiding applied in a complimentary sense2 yet1 it strikes me1 one hardly deserves the compliment1 if one does not know what a law is4 ,per4 ,fortunately there is a ready answer to your difficulty4 ,you wish to know what a law is8 ,well1 those are laws which the majority1 being met together in conclave1 approve and enact as to what it is right to do1 and what it is right to abstain from doing4 ,alc4 ,enact on the hypothesis that it is right to do what is good8 or to do what is bad8 ,per4 ,what is good1 to be sure1 young sir1 not what is bad4 ,alc4 ,supposing it is not the majority1 but1 as in the case of an oligarchy1 the minority1 who meet and enact the rules of conduct1 what are these8 ,per4 ,whatever the ruling power of the state after deliberation enacts as our duty to do1 goes by the name of laws4 ,alc4 ,then if a tyrant1 holding the chief power in the state1 enacts rules of conduct for the citizens1 are these enactments law8 ,per4 ,yes1 anything which a tyrant as head of the state enacts1 also goes by the name of law4 ,alc4 ,but1 ,pericles1 violence and lawlessness--how do we define them8 ,is it not when a stronger man forces a weaker to do what seems right to him--not by persuasion but by compulsion8 ,per4 ,i should say so4 ,alc4 ,it would seem to follow that if a tyrant1 without persuading the citizens1 drives them by enactment to do certain things--that is lawlessness8 ,per4 ,you are right2 and ,i retract the statement that measures passed by a tyrant without persuasion of the citizens are law4 ,alc4 ,and what of measures passed by a minority1 not by persuasion of the majority1 but in the exercise of its power only8 ,are we1 or are we not1 to apply the term violence to these8 ,per4 ,i think that anything which any one forces another to do without persuasion1 whether by enactment or not1 is violence rather than law4 ,alc4 ,it would seem that everything which the majority1 in the exercise of its power over the possessors of wealth1 and without persuading them1 chooses to enact1 is of the nature of violence rather than of law8 ,to be sure 7answered ,pericles71 adding3 ,at your age we were clever hands at such quibbles ourselves4 ,it was just such subtleties which we used to practise our wits upon2 as you do now1 if ,i mistake not4 ,to which ,alcibiades replied3 ,ah1 ,pericles1 ,i do wish we could have met in those days when you were at your cleverest in such matters4 ,well1 then1 as soon as the desired superiority over the politicians of the day seemed to be attained1 ,critias and ,alcibiades turned their backs on ,socrates4 ,they found his society unattractive1 not to speak of the annoyance of being cross-questioned on their own shortcomings4 ,forthwith they devoted themselves to those affairs of state but for which they would never have come near him at all4 ,no2 if one would seek to see true companions of ,socrates1 one must look to ,crito1 7#bd7 and ,chaerephon1 and ,chaerecrates1 to ,hermogenes1 to ,simmias and ,cebes1 to ,phaedondes and others1 who clung to him not to excel in the rhetoric of the ,assembly or the law-courts1 but with the nobler ambition of attaining to such beauty and goodliness of soul as would enable them to discharge the various duties of life to house and family1 to relatives and friends1 to fellow-citizens1 and to the state at large4 ,of these true followers not one in youth or old age was ever guilty1 or thought guilty1 of committing any evil deed4 7#bd7 ,for these true followers1 familiar to us in the pages of ,plato1 7,crito1 ,apol41 ,phaedo1 etc7 see ,cobet1 ,pros4 ,xen4 ,but for all that1 the accuser insists1 ,socrates taught sons to pour contumely upon their fathers 7#be7 by persuading his young friends that he could make them wiser than their sires1 or by pointing out that the law allowed a son to sue his father for aberration of mind1 and to imprison him1 which legal ordinance he put in evidence to prove that it might be well for the wiser to imprison the more ignorant4 7#be7 ,see ,apol4 #bj2 ,arist4 ,clouds1 #adjg1 where ,pheidippides drags his father ,strepsiades through the mire4 ,now what ,socrates held was1 that if a man may with justice incarcerate another for no better cause than a form of folly or ignorance1 this same person could not justly complain if he in his turn were kept in bonds by his superiors in knowledge2 and to come to the bottom of such questions1 to discover the difference between madness and ignorance was a problem which he was perpetually working at4 ,his opinion came to this3 ,if a madman may1 as a matter of expediency to himself and his friends1 be kept in prison1 surely1 as a matter of justice1 the man who knows not what he ought to know should be content to sit at the feet of those who know1 and be taught4 ,but it was the rest of their kith and kin1 not fathers only 7according to the accuser71 whom ,socrates dishonoured in the eyes of his circle of followers1 when he said that the sick man or the litigant does not derive assistance from his relatives1 7#bf7 but from his doctor in the one case1 and his legal adviser in the other4 ,listen further to his language about friends1 says the accuser3 ',what is the good of their being kindly disposed1 unless they can be of some practical use to you8 ,mere goodness of disposition is nothing2 those only are worthy of honour who combine with the knowledge of what is right the faculty of expounding it2' 7#bg7 and so by bringing the young to look upon himself as a superlatively wise person gifted with an extraordinary capacity for making others wise also1 he so worked on the dispositions of those who consorted with him that in their esteem the rest of the world counted for nothing by comparison with ,socrates4 7#bf7 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 v4 #ece4 7#bg7 ,cf4 ,thuc4 ii4 #fj4 ,pericles says1 ,yet ,i with whom you are so angry venture to say of myself1 that ,i am as capable as any one of devising and explaining a sound policy4--,jowett4 ,now ,i admit the language about fathers and the rest of a man's relations4 ,i can go further1 and add some other sayings of his1 that when the soul 7which is alone the indwelling centre of intelligence7 is gone out of a man1 be he our nearest and dearest friend1 we carry the body forth and bury it out of sight4 ,even in life1 he used to say1 each of us is ready to part with any portion of his best possession--to wit1 his own body--if it be useless and unprofitable4 ,he will remove it himself1 or suffer another to do so in his stead4 ,thus men cut off their own nails1 hair1 or corns2 they allow surgeons to cut and cauterise them1 not without pains and aches1 and are so grateful to the doctor for his services that they further give him a fee4 ,or again1 a man ejects the spittle from his mouth as far as possible4 7#bh7 ,why8 ,because it is of no use while it stays within the system1 but is detrimental rather4 7#bh7 ,see ,aristot4 ,eth4 ,eud4 vii4 #a4 ,now by these instances his object was not to inculcate the duty of burying one's father alive or of cutting oneself to bits1 but to show that lack of intelligence means lack of worth2 7#bi7 and so he called upon his hearers to be as sensible and useful as they could be1 so that1 be it father or brother or any one else whose esteem he would deserve1 a man should not hug himself in careless self-interest1 trusting to mere relationship1 but strive to be useful to those whose esteem he coveted4 7#bi7 i4e4 witless and worthless are synonymous4 ,but 7pursues the accuser7 by carefully culling the most immoral passages of the famous poets1 and using them as evidences1 he taught his associates to be evildoers and tyrranical3 the line of ,hesiod 7#cj7 for instance-- ,no work is a disgrace2 slackness of work is the disgrace-- interpreted1 says the accuser1 by ,socrates as if the poet enjoined us to abstain from no work wicked or ignoble2 do everything for the sake of gain4 7#cj7 ,works and ,days1 #cji ',ergon d' ouden oneidos4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,charm4 #afc ,c4 ,now while ,socrates would have entirely admitted the propositions that it is a blessing and a benefit to a man to be a worker1 and that a lazy do-nothing is a pestilent evil1 that work is good and idleness a curse1 the question arises1 whom did he mean by workers8 ,in his vocabulary only those were good workmen 7#ca7 who were engaged on good work2 dicers and gamblers and others engaged on any other base and ruinous business he stigmatised as the idle drones2 and from this point of view the quotation from ,hesiod is unimpeachable-- ,no work is a disgrace2 only idlesse is disgrace4 ,but there was a passage from ,homer 7#cb7 for ever on his lips1 as the accuser tells us--the passage which says concerning ,odysseus1 ,what prince1 or man of name1 ,he found flight-giv'n1 he would restrain with words of gentlest blame3 ,good sir1 it fits you not to fly1 or fare as one afraid1 ,you should not only stay yourself1 but see the people stayed4 ,thus he the best sort us'd2 the worst1 whose spirits brake out in noise1 7#cc7 ,he cudgell'd with his sceptre1 chid1 and said1 ,stay1 wretch1 be still1 ,and hear thy betters2 thou art base1 and both in power and skill ,poor and unworthy1 without name in counsel or in war4 ,we must not all be kings4 7#ca7 ,see below1 ,,iii4 ix4 #i4 7#cb7 ,il4 ii4 #ahh foll41 #aii foll4 7so ,chapman74 7#cc7 ,lit4 ,but whatever man of the people he saw and found him shouting4--,w4 ,leaf4 ,the accuser informs us that ,socrates interpreted these lines as though the poet approved the giving of blows to commoners and poor folk4 ,now no such remark was ever made by ,socrates2 which indeed would have been tantamount to maintaining that he ought to be beaten himself4 ,what he did say was1 that those who were useful neither in word nor deed1 who were incapable of rendering assistance in time of need to the army or the state or the people itself1 be they never so wealthy1 ought to be restrained1 and especially if to incapacity they added effrontery4 ,as to ,socrates1 he was the very opposite of all this--he was plainly a lover of the people1 and indeed of all mankind4 ,though he had many ardent admirers among citizens and strangers alike1 he never demanded any fee for his society from any one1 7#cd7 but bestowed abundantly upon all alike of the riches of his soul--good things1 indeed1 of which fragments accepted gratis at his hands were taken and sold at high prices to the rest of the community by some1 7#ce7 who were not1 as he was1 lovers of the people1 since with those who had not money to give in return they refused to discourse4 ,but of ,socrates be it said that in the eyes of the whole world he reflected more honour on the state and a richer lustre than ever ,lichas1 7#cf7 whose fame is proverbial1 shed on ,lacedaemon4 ,lichas feasted and entertained the foreign residents in ,lacedaemon at the ,gymnopaediae most handsomely4 ,socrates gave a lifetime to the outpouring of his substance in the shape of the greatest benefits bestowed on all who cared to receive them4 ,in other words1 he made those who lived in his society better men1 and sent them on their way rejoicing4 7#cd7 ,see ,symp4 iv4 #dc2 ,plat4 ,hipp4 maj4 #cjj ,d2 ,apol4 #ai ,e4 7#ce7 ,see ,diog4 ,laert4 ,,ii4 viii4 #a4 7#cf7 ,see ,hell4 ,,iii4 ii4 #ba2 ,thuc4 v4 #ej2 ,plut4 ,cim4 #bhd ,c4 ,for the ,gymnopaediae1 see ,paus4 ,,iii4 xi4 #i2 ,athen4 xiv4 p4 #fca4 ,to no other conclusion1 therefore1 can ,i come but that1 being so good a man1 ,socrates was worthier to have received honour from the state than death4 ,and this ,i take to be the strictly legal view of the case1 for what does the law require8 7#cg7 ,if a man be proved to be a thief1 a filcher of clothes1 a cut-purse1 a housebreaker1 a man-stealer1 a robber of temples1 the penalty is death4 ,even so2 and of all men ,socrates stood most aloof from such crimes4 7#cg7 ,see ,symp4 iv4 #cf2 ,plat4 ,rep4 #ege ,b2 ,gorg4 #ejh ,e4 ,to the state he was never the cause of any evil--neither disaster in war1 nor faction1 nor treason1 nor any other mischief whatsoever4 ,and if his public life was free from all offence1 so was his private4 ,he never hurt a single soul either by deprivation of good or infliction of evil1 nor did he ever lie under the imputation of any of those misdoings4 where then is his liability to the indictment to be found8 ,who1 so far from disbelieving in the gods1 as set forth in the indictment1 was conspicuous beyond all men for service to heaven2 so far from corrupting the young--a charge alleged with insistence by the prosecutor--was notorious for the zeal with which he strove not only to stay his associates from evil desires1 but to foster in them a passionate desire for that loveliest and queenliest of virtues without which states and families crumble to decay4 7#ch7 ,such being his conduct1 was he not worthy of high honour from the state of ,athens8 7#ch7 ,or1 the noblest and proudest virtue by means of which states and families are prosperously directed4 ,,iii ,it may serve to illustrate the assertion that he benefited his associates partly by the display of his own virtue and partly by verbal discourse and argument1 if ,i set down my various recollections 7#a7 on these heads4 ,and first with regard to religion and the concerns of heaven4 ,in conduct and language his behaviour conformed to the rule laid down by the ,pythia 7#b7 in reply to the question1 ,how shall we act8 as touching a sacrifice or the worship of ancestors1 or any similar point4 ,her answer is3 ,act according to the law and custom of your state1 and you will act piously4 ,after this pattern ,socrates behaved himself1 and so he exhorted others to behave1 holding them to be but busybodies and vain fellows who acted on any different principle4 7#a7 ,hence the title of the work1 ',apomenmoneumata1 ,recollections1 ,memoirs1 ,memorabilia4 ,see ,diog4 ,laert4 ,xen4 ,,ii4 vi4 #dh4 7#b7 ,the ,pythia at ,delphi4 ,his formula or prayer was simple3 ,give me that which is best for me1 for1 said he1 the gods know best what good things are--to pray for gold or silver or despotic power were no better than to make some particular throw at dice or stake in battle or any such thing the subject of prayer1 of which the future consequences are manifestly uncertain4 7#c7 7#c7 ,see 7,plat47 ,alcib4 ,,ii4 #adb foll42 ,valerius ,max4 vii4 #b2 ,spectator1 ,no4 #bjg4 ,if with scant means he offered but small sacrifices he believed that he was in no wise inferior to those who make frequent and large sacrifices from an ampler store4 ,it were ill surely for the very gods themselves1 could they take delight in large sacrifices rather than in small1 else oftentimes must the offerings of bad men be found acceptable rather than of good2 nor from the point of view of men themselves would life be worth living if the offerings of a villain rather than of a righteous man found favour in the sight of ,heaven4 ,his belief was that the joy of the gods is greater in proportion to the holiness of the giver1 and he was ever an admirer of that line of ,hesiod which says1 ,according to thine ability do sacrifice to the immortal gods4 7#d7 7#d7 ,hesiod1 ,works and ,days1 #ccf4 ,see ,anab4 ,,iii4 ii4 #i4 ,yes1 he would say1 in our dealings with friends and strangers alike1 and in reference to the demands of life in general1 there is no better motto for a man than that3 'let a man do according to his ability4' ,or to take another point4 ,if it appeared to him that a sign from heaven had been given him1 nothing would have induced him to go against heavenly warning3 he would as soon have been persuaded to accept the guidance of a blind man ignorant of the path to lead him on a journey in place of one who knew the road and could see2 and so he denounced the folly of others who do things contrary to the warnings of ,god in order to avoid some disrepute among men4 ,for himself he despised all human aids by comparison with counsel from above4 ,the habit and style of living to which he subjected his soul and body was one which under ordinary circumstances 7#e7 would enable any one adopting it to look existence cheerily in the face and to pass his days serenely3 it would certainly entail no difficulties as regards expense4 ,so frugal was it that a man must work little indeed who could not earn the quantum which contented ,socrates4 ,of food he took just enough to make eating a pleasure--the appetite he brought to it was sauce sufficient2 while as to drinks1 seeing that he only drank when thirsty1 any draught refreshed4 7#f7 ,if he accepted an invitation to dinner1 he had no difficulty in avoiding the common snare of over-indulgence1 and his advice to people who could not equally control their appetite was to avoid taking what would allure them to eat if not hungry or to drink if not thirsty4 7#g7 ,such things are ruinous to the constitution1 he said1 bad for stomachs1 brains1 and soul alike2 or as he used to put it1 with a touch of sarcasm1 7#h7 ,it must have been by feasting men on so many dainty dishes that ,circe produced her pigs2 only ,odysseus through his continency and the 'promptings 7#i7 of ,hermes' abstained from touching them immoderately1 and by the same token did not turn into a swine4 ,so much for this topic1 which he touched thus lightly and yet seriously4 7#e7 ei me ti daimonion eie1 save under some divinely-ordained calamity4 ,cf4 ,cyrop4 ,i4 vi4 #ah2 ,symp4 viii4 #dc4 7#f7 ,see ,ages4 ix2 ,cic4 ,tusc4 v4 #cd1 #ig2 de ,fin4 ii4 #bh1 #ij4 7#g7 ,cf4 ,plut4 ,mor4 #abh ,d2 ,clement1 ,paedag4 #b4 #agc1 #cc2 ,strom4 #b1 #dib1 #bd2 ,aelian1 ,n4 ,a4 #h1 #i4 7#h7 ,half in gibe and half in jest1 in ref4 to ,od4 x4 #bcc foll43 ,so she let them in444 7#i7 upothemosune1 inspiration4 ,cf4 ,il4 xv4 #dab2 ,od4 xvi4 #bcc4 ,but as to the concerns of ,aphrodite1 his advice was to hold strongly aloof from the fascination of fair forms3 once lay finger on these and it is not easy to keep a sound head and a sober mind4 ,to take a particular case4 ,it was a mere kiss which1 as he had heard1 ,critobulus 7#aj7 had some time given to a fair youth1 the son of ,alcibiades4 7#aa7 ,accordingly ,critobulus being present1 ,socrates propounded the question4 7#aj7 ,for ,critobulus 7the son of ,crito7 see ,econ4 i4 #a foll42 ,symp4 i4 #c foll4 7#aa7 ,see ,isocr4 ,or4 xvi4 ,cobet conj4 ton tou ',axiokhou uion1 i4e4 ,clinias4 ,soc4 ,tell me1 ,xenophon1 have you not always believed ,critobulus to be a man of sound sense1 not wild and self-willed8 ,should you not have said that he was remarkable for his prudence rather than thoughtless or foolhardy8 ,xen4 ,certainly that is what ,i should have said of him4 ,soc4 ,then you are now to regard him as quite the reverse--a hot-blooded1 reckless libertine3 this is the sort of man to throw somersaults into knives1 7#ab7 or to leap into the jaws of fire4 7#ab7 ,cf4 ,symp4 ii4 #aj1 iv4 #af4 ,see ,schneider ad loc4 ,xen4 ,and what have you seen him doing1 that you give him so bad a character8 ,soc4 ,doing8 ,why1 has not the fellow dared to steal a kiss from the son of ,alcibiades1 most fair of youths and in the golden prime8 ,xen4 ,nay1 then1 if that is the foolhardy adventure1 it is a danger which ,i could well encounter myself4 ,soc4 ,poor soul6 and what do you expect your fate to be after that kiss8 ,let me tell you4 ,on the instant you will lose your freedom1 the indenture of your bondage will be signed2 it will be yours on compulsion to spend large sums on hurtful pleasures2 you will have scarcely a moment's leisure left for any noble study2 you will be driven to concern yourself most zealously with things which no man1 not even a madman1 would choose to make an object of concern4 ,xen4 ,o ,heracles6 how fell a power to reside in a kiss6 ,soc4 ,does it surprise you8 ,do you not know that the tarantula1 which is no bigger than a threepenny bit1 7#ac7 has only to touch the mouth and it will afflict its victim with pains and drive him out of his senses4 7#ac7 ,lit4 a half-obol piece4 ,for the phalaggion see ,aristot4 ,h4 ,a4 ix4 #ci1 #a4 ,xen4 ,yes1 but then the creature injects something with its bite4 ,soc4 ,ah1 fool6 and do you imagine that these lovely creatures infuse nothing with their kiss1 simply because you do not see the poison8 ,do you not know that this wild beast which men call beauty in its bloom is all the more terrible than the tarantula in that the insect must first touch its victim1 but this at a mere glance of the beholder1 without even contact1 will inject something into him--yards away--which will make him man4 ,and may be that is why the ,loves are called archers1 because these beauties wound so far off4 7#ad7 ,but my advice to you1 ,xenophon1 is1 whenever you catch sight of one of these fair forms1 to run helter-skelter for bare life without a glance behind2 and to you1 ,critobulus1 ,i would say1 ,go abroad for a year3 so long time will it take to heal you of this wound4 7#ad7 ,l4 ,dindorf1 etc4 regard the sentence as a gloss4 ,cf4 ,symp4 iv4 #bf 7isos de kai444 entimoteron estin74 ,such 7he said71 in the affairs of ,aphrodite1 as in meats and drinks1 should be the circumspection of all whose footing is insecure4 ,at least they should confine themselves to such diet as the soul would dispense with1 save for some necessity of the body2 and which even so ought to set up no disturbance4 7#ae7 ,but for himself1 it was clear1 he was prepared at all points and invulnerable4 ,he found less difficulty in abstaining from beauty's fairest and fullest bloom than many others from weeds and garbage4 ,to sum up3 7#af7 with regard to eating and drinking and these other temptations of the sense1 the equipment of his soul made him independent2 he could boast honestly that in his moderate fashion 7#ag7 his pleasures were no less than theirs who take such trouble to procure them1 and his pains far fewer4 7#ae7 ,cf4 ,symp4 iv4 #ch4 7#af7 ,l4 ,dindorf 7brackets7 this passage as spurious4 7#ag7 ,on the principle enough is as good as a feast1 arkountos4 ,,iv ,a belief is current1 in accordance with views maintained concerning ,socrates in speech and writing1 and in either case conjecturally1 that1 however powerful he may have been in stimulating men to virtue as a theorist1 he was incapable of acting as their guide himself4 7#a7 ,it would be well for those who adopt this view to weigh carefully not only what ,socrates effected by way of castigation in cross-questioning whose who conceived themselves to be possessed of all knowledge1 but also his everyday conversation with those who spent their time in close intercourse with himself4 ,having done this1 let them decide whether he was incapable of making his companions better4 7#a7 ,al4 ,if any one believes that ,socrates1 as represented in certain dialogues 7e4g4 of ,plato1 ,antisthenes1 etc47 of an imaginary character1 was an adept 7protrepsasthai7 in the art of stimulating people to virtue negatively but scarcely the man to guide 7proagein7 his hearers on the true path himself4 ,cf4 7,plat47 ,clitophon1 #daj ,b2 ,cic4 de ,or4 ,i4 xlvii4 #bjd2 ,plut4 ,mor4 #gih ,b4 ,see ,grote1 ,plato1 iii4 #ba2 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #ea foll42 ,cf4 below1 ,,iv4 iii4 #b4 ,i will first state what ,i once heard fall from his lips in a discussion with ,aristodemus1 7#b7 the little1 as he was called1 on the topic of divinity4 7#c7 ,socrates had observed that ,aristodemus neither sacrificed nor gave heed to divination1 but on the contrary was disposed to ridicule those who did4 7#b7 ,see ,plat4 ,symp4 #agc ,b3 ,he was a little fellow who never wore any shoes1 ,aristodemus1 of the deme of ,cydathenaeum4--,jowett4 7#c7 ,or1 the divine element4 ,so tell me1 ,aristodemus 7he began71 are there any human beings who have won your admiration for their wisdom8 ,ar4 ,there are4 ,soc4 ,would you mention to us their names8 ,ar4 ,in the writings of epic poetry ,i have the greatest admiration for ,homer4444 ,and as a dithyrambic poet for ,melanippides4 7#d7 ,i admire also ,sophocles as a tragedian1 ,polycleitus as a sculptor1 and ,zeuxis as a painter4 7#d7 ,melanippides1 #dcj ,b4,c4 ,see ,cobet1 ,pros4 ,xen4 s4n4 ,soc4 ,which would you consider the more worthy of admiration1 a fashioner of senseless images devoid of motion or one who could fashion living creatures endowed with understanding and activity8 ,ar4 ,decidedly the latter1 provided his living creatures owed their birth to design and were not the offspring of some chance4 ,soc4 ,but now if you had two sorts of things1 the one of which presents no clue as to what it is for1 and the other is obviously for some useful purpose--which would you judge to be the result of chance1 which of design8 ,ar4 ,clearly that which is produced for some useful end is the work of design4 ,soc4 ,does it not strike you then that he who made man from the beginning 7#e7 did for some useful end furnish him with his several senses--giving him eyes to behold the visible word1 and ears to catch the intonations of sound8 ,or again1 what good would there be in odours if nostrils had not been bestowed upon us8 what perception of sweet things and pungent1 and of all the pleasures of the palate1 had not a tongue been fashioned in us as an interpreter of the same8 ,and besides all this1 do you not think this looks like a matter of foresight1 this closing of the delicate orbs of sight with eyelids as with folding doors1 which1 when there is need to use them for any purpose1 can be thrown wide open and firmly closed again in sleep8 and1 that even the winds of heaven may not visit them too roughly1 this planting of the eyelashes as a protecting screen8 7#f7 this coping of the region above the eyes with cornice-work of eyebrow so that no drop of sweat fall from the head and injure them8 again this readiness of the ear to catch all sounds and yet not to be surcharged8 this capacity of the front teeth of all animals to cut and of the grinders to receive the food and reduce it to pulp8 the position of the mouth again1 close to the eyes and nostrils as a portal of ingress for all the creature's supplies8 and lastly1 seeing that matter passing out 7#g7 of the body is unpleasant1 this hindward direction of the passages1 and their removal to a distance from the avenues of sense8 ,i ask you1 when you see all these things constructed with such show of foresight can you doubt whether they are products of chance or intelligence8 7#e7 ,cf4 ,aristot4 de ,part4 ,animal4 #a4 ,for the teleological views see ,,iv4 iii4 #b foll4 7#f7 ,like a sieve or colander4 7#g7 ,that which goeth out of a man4 ,ar4 ,to be sure not6 ,viewed in this light they would seem to be the handiwork of some wise artificer1 7#h7 full of love for all things living4 7#i7 7#h7 ,demiurge4 7#i7 ,passage referred to by ,epictetus ap4 ,stob4 ,flor4 #aba1 #bi4 ,soc4 ,what shall we say of this passion implanted in man to beget offspring1 this passion in the mother to rear her babe1 and in the creature itself1 once born1 this deep desire of life and fear of death8 ,ar4 ,no doubt these do look like the contrivances of some one deliberately planning the existence of living creatures4 ,soc4 ,well1 and doubtless you feel to have a spark of wisdom yourself8 ,ar4 ,put your questions1 and ,i will answer4 ,soc4 ,and yet you imagine that elsewhere no spark of wisdom is to be found8 ,and that1 too1 when you know that you have in your body a tiny fragment only of the mighty earth1 a little drop of the great waters1 and of the other elements1 vast in their extent1 you got1 ,i presume1 a particle of each towards the compacting of your bodily frame8 ,mind alone1 it would seem1 which is nowhere to be found1 7#aj7 you had the lucky chance to snatch up and make off with1 you cannot tell how4 ,and these things around and about us1 enormous in size1 infinite in number1 owe their orderly arrangement1 as you suppose1 to some vacuity of wit8 7#aj7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,phileb4 #cj ,b3 ,soc4 ,may our body be said to have a soul8 ,pro4 ,clearly4 ,soc4 ,and whence comes that soul1 my dear ,protarchus1 unless the body of the universe1 which contains elements similar to our bodies but finer1 has also a soul8 ,can there be any other source8--,jowett4 ,cic4 de ,n4 ,d4 ii4 #f2 iii4 #aa4 ,ar4 ,it may be1 for my eyes fail to see the master agents of these1 as one sees the fabricators of things produced on earth4 ,soc4 ,no more do you see your own soul1 which is the master agent of your body2 so that1 as far as that goes1 you may maintain1 if you like1 that you do nothing with intelligence1 7#aa7 but everything by chance4 7#aa7 ,or1 by your wit1 gnome4 ,at this point ,aristodemus3 ,i assure you1 ,socrates1 that ,i do not disdain the ,divine power4 ,on the contrary1 my belief is that the ,divinity is too grand to need any service which ,i could render4 ,soc4 ,but the grander that power is1 which deigns to tend and wait upon you1 the more you are called upon to honour it4 ,ar4 ,be well assured1 if ,i could believe the gods take thought for all men1 ,i would not neglect them4 ,soc4 ,how can you suppose that they do not so take thought8 ,who1 in the first place1 gave to man alone of living creatures his erect posture1 enabling him to see farther in front of him and to contemplate more freely the height above1 and to be less subject to distress than other creatures 7endowed like himself with eyes and ears and mouth74 7#ab7 ,consider next how they gave to the beast of the field 7#ac7 feet as a means of progression only1 but to man they gave in addition hands--those hands which have achieved so much to raise us in the scale of happiness above all animals4 ,did they not make the tongue also8 which belongs indeed alike to man and beast1 but in man they fashioned it so as to play on different parts of the mouth at different times1 whereby we can produce articulate speech1 and have a code of signals to express our every want to one another4 ,or consider the pleasures of the sexual appetite2 limited in the rest of the animal kingdom to certain seasons1 but in the case of man a series prolonged unbroken to old age4 ,nor did it content the ,godhead merely to watch over the interests of man's body4 ,what is of far higher import1 he implanted in man the noblest and most excellent type of soul4 ,for what other creature1 to begin with1 has a soul to appreciate the existence of the gods who have arranged this grand and beauteous universe8 ,what other tribe of animals save man can render service to the gods8 ,how apt is the spirit of man to take precautions against hunger and thirst1 cold and heat1 to alleviate disease and foster strength6 how suited to labour with a view to learning6 how capable of garnering in the storehouse of his memory all that he has heard or seen or understood6 ,is it not most evident to you that by the side of other animals men live and move a race of gods--by nature excellent1 in beauty of body and of soul supreme8 ,for1 mark you1 had a creature of man's wit been encased in the body of an ox1 7#ad7 he would have been powerless to carry out his wishes1 just as the possession of hands divorced from human wit is profitless4 ,and then you come1 you who have obtained these two most precious attributes1 and give it as your opinion1 that the gods take no thought or care for you4 ,why1 what will you have them to do1 that you may believe and be persuaded that you too are in their thoughts8 7#ab7 ,see ,kuhner for an attempt to cure the text4 7#ac7 erpetois1 a poetical word4 ,cf4 ,od4 iv4 #dah2 ,herod4 i4 #adj4 7#ad7 ,see ,aristot4 de ,part4 ,animal4 iv4 #aj4 ,ar4 ,when they treat me as you tell us they treat you1 and send me counsellors to warn me what ,i am to do and what abstain from doing1 7#ae7 ,i will believe4 7#ae7 ,see ,,iv4 iii4 #ab4 ,soc4 ,send you counsellors6 ,come now1 what when the people of ,athens make inquiry by oracle1 and the gods' answer comes8 ,are you not an ,athenian8 ,think you not that to you also the answer is given8 ,what when they send portents to forewarn the states of ,hellas8 or to all mankind8 ,are you not a man8 a ,hellene8 ,are not these intended for you also8 ,can it be that you alone are excepted as a signal instance of ,divine neglect8 ,again1 do you suppose that the gods could have implanted in the heart of man the belief in their capacity to work him weal or woe had they not the power8 ,would not men have discovered the imposture in all this lapse of time8 ,do you not perceive that the wisest and most perdurable of human institutions--be they cities or tribes of men--are ever the most ,god-fearing2 and in the individual man the riper his age and judgment1 the deeper his religousness8 ,ay1 my good sir 7he broke forth71 lay to heart and understand that even as your own mind within you can turn and dispose of your body as it lists1 so ought we to think that the wisdom which abides within the universal frame does so dispose of all things as it finds agreeable to itself2 for hardly may it be that your eye is able to range over many a league1 but that the eye of ,god is powerless to embrace all things at a glance2 or that to your soul it is given to dwell in thought on matters here or far away in ,egypt or in ,sicily1 but that the wisdom and thought of ,god is not sufficient to include all things at one instant under ,his care4 ,if only you would copy your own behaviour 7#af7 where human beings are concerned4 ,it is by acts of service and of kindness that you discover which of your fellows are willing to requite you in kind4 ,it is by taking another into your counsel that you arrive at the secret of his wisdom4 ,if1 on like principle1 you will but make trial of the gods by acts of service1 whether they will choose to give you counsel in matters obscure to mortal vision1 you shall discover the nature and the greatness of ,godhead to be such that they are able at once to see all things and to hear all things and to be present everywhere1 nor does the least thing escape their watchful care4 7#af7 ,or1 reason as you are wont to do4 ,to my mind the effect of words like these was to cause those about him to hold aloof from unholiness1 baseness1 and injustice1 not only whilst they were seen of men1 but even in the solitary place1 since they must believe that no part of their conduct could escape the eye of ,heaven4 ,v ,i suppose it may be taken as admitted that self-control is a noble acquirement for a man4 7#a7 ,if so1 let us turn and consider whether by language like the following he was likely to lead his listeners onwards 7#b7 to the attainment of this virtue4 ,sirs1 he would say1 if a war came upon us and we wished to choose a man who would best help us to save ourselves and to subdue our enemy1 ,i suppose we should scarcely select one whom we knew to be a slave to his belly1 to wine1 or lust1 and prone to succumb to toil or sleep4 ,could we expect such an one to save us or to master our foes8 ,or if one of us were nearing the end of his days1 and he wished to discover some one to whom he might entrust his sons for education1 his maiden daughters for protection1 and his property in general for preservation1 would he deem a libertine worthy of such offices8 ,why1 no one would dream of entrusting his flocks and herds1 his storehouses and barns1 or the superintendence of his works to the tender mercies of an intemperate slave4 ,if a butler or an errand boy with such a character were offered to us we would not take him as a free gift4 ,and if he would not accept an intemperate slave1 what pains should the master himself take to avoid that imputation4 7#c7 ,for with the incontinent man it is not as with the self-seeker and the covetous4 ,these may at any rate be held to enrich themselves in depriving others4 ,but the intemperate man cannot claim in like fashion to be a blessing to himself if a curse to his neighbours2 nay1 the mischief which he may cause to others is nothing by comparison with that which redounds against himself1 since it is the height of mischief to ruin--,i do not say one's own house and property--but one's own body and one's own soul4 ,or to take an example from social intercourse1 no one cares for a guest who evidently takes more pleasure in the wine and the viands than in the friends beside him--who stints his comrades of the affection due to them to dote upon a mistress4 ,does it not come to this1 that every honest man is bound to look upon self-restraint as the very corner-stone of virtue3 7#d7 which he should seek to lay down as the basis and foundation of his soul8 ,without self-restraint who can lay any good lesson to heart or practise it when learnt in any degree worth speaking of8 ,or1 to put it conversely1 what slave of pleasure will not suffer degeneracy of soul and body8 ,by ,hera1 7#e7 well may every free man pray to be saved from the service of such a slave2 and well too may he who is in bondage to such pleasures supplicate ,heaven to send him good masters1 seeing that is the one hope of salvation left him4 7#a7 ,lit4 a beautiful and brave possession4 7#b7 proubibaze4 7#c7 ,or1 how should the master himself beware lest he fall into that category4 7#d7 krepida4 ,see ,pind4 ,pyth4 iv4 #ach2 ib4 vii4 #c2 ib4 fr4 #ic4 7#e7 ,see below1 ,,iii4 x4 #i1 xi4 #e2 ,,iv4 ii4 #i1 iv4 #h2 ,econ4 x4 #a2 ,cyrop4 ,i4 iv4 #ab2 ,plat4 ,phaedr4 #bcj ,b4 ,cf4 ,shakesp4 by'r ,lakin4 ,well-tempered words3 yet his self-restraint shone forth even more in his acts than in his language4 ,not only was he master over the pleasures which flow from the body1 but of those also which are fed by riches1 his belief being that he who receives money from this or that chance donor sets up over himself a master1 and binds himself to an abominable slavery4 ,,vi ,in this context some discussions with ,antiphon the sophist 7#a7 deserve record4 ,antiphon approaches ,socrates in hope of drawing away his associates1 and in their presence thus accosts him4 7#a7 o teratoskopos1 jealous of ,socrates1 according to ,aristotle ap4 ,diog4 ,laert4 ,,ii4 v4 #be4 ,see ,cobet1 ,pros4 ,xen4 ,antiphon4 ,why1 ,socrates1 ,i always thought it was expected of students of philosophy to grow in happiness daily2 but you seem to have reaped other fruits from your philosophy4 ,at any rate1 you exist1 ,i do not say live1 in a style such as no slave serving under a master would put up with4 ,your meat and your drink are of the cheapest sort1 and as to clothes1 you cling to one wretched cloak which serves you for summer and winter alike2 and so you go the whole year round1 without shoes to your feet or a shirt to your back4 ,then again1 you are not for taking or making money1 the mere seeking of which is a pleasure1 even as the possession of it adds to the sweetness and independence of existence4 ,i do not know whether you follow the common rule of teachers1 who try to fashion their pupils in imitation of themselves1 7#b7 and propose to mould the characters of your companions2 but if you do you ought to dub yourself professor of the art of wretchedness4 7#c7 7#b7 ,or1 try to turn out their pupils as copies of themselves4 7#c7 ,see ,arist4 ,clouds1 on o kakodaimon ,sokrates kai ,khairephon4 ,thus challenged1 ,socrates replied3 ,one thing to me is certain1 ,antiphon2 you have conceived so vivid an idea of my life of misery that for yourself you would choose death sooner than live as ,i do4 ,suppose now we turn and consider what it is you find so hard in my life4 ,is it that he who takes payment must as a matter of contract finish the work for which he is paid1 whereas ,i1 who do not take it1 lie under no constraint to discourse except with whom ,i choose8 ,do you despise my dietary on the ground that the food which ,i eat is less wholesome and less stengthening than yours1 or that the articles of my consumption are so scarce and so much costlier to procure than yours8 ,or have the fruits of your marketing a flavour denied to mine8 ,do you not know the sharper the appetite the less the need of sauces1 the keener the thirst the less the desire for out-of-the-way drinks8 ,and as to raiment1 clothes1 you know1 are changed on account of cold or else of heat4 ,people only wear boots and shoes in order not to gall their feet and be prevented walking4 ,now ,i ask you1 have you ever noticed that ,i keep more within doors than others on account of the cold8 ,have you ever seen me battling with any one for shade on account of the heat8 ,do you not know that even a weakling by nature may1 by dint of exercise and practice1 come to outdo a giant who neglects his body8 ,he will beat him in the particular point of training1 and bear the strain more easily4 ,but you apparently will not have it that ,i1 who am for ever training myself to endure this1 that1 and the other thing which may befall the body1 can brave all hardships more easily than yourself for instance1 who perhaps are not so practised4 ,and to escape slavery to the belly or to sleep or lechery1 can you suggest more effective means than the possession of some powerful attraction1 some counter-charm which shall gladden not only in the using1 but by the hope enkindled of its lasting usefulness8 ,and yet this you do know2 joy is not to him who feels that he is doing well in nothing--it belongs to one who is persuaded that things are progressing with him1 be it tillage or the working of a vessel1 7#d7 or any of the thousand and one things on which a man may chance to be employed4 ,to him it is given to rejoice as he reflects1 ,i am doing well4 ,but is the pleasured derived from all these put together half as joyous as the consciousness of becoming better oneself1 of acquiring better and better friends8 ,that1 for my part1 is the belief ,i continue to cherish4 7#d7 ,the business of a shipowner or skipper4 ,again1 if it be a question of helping one's friends or country1 which of the two will have the larger leisure to devote to these objects--he who leads the life which ,i lead to-day1 or he who lives in the style which you deem so fortunate8 ,which of the two will adopt a soldier's life more easily--the man who cannot get on without expensive living1 or he to whom whatever comes to hand suffices8 ,which will be the readier to capitulate and cry mercy in a siege--the man of elaborate wants1 or he who can get along happily with the readiest things to hand8 ,you1 ,antiphon1 would seem to suggest that happiness consists of luxury and extravagance2 ,i hold a different creed4 ,to have no wants at all is1 to my mind1 an attribute of ,godhead2 7#e7 to have as few wants as possible the nearest approach to ,godhead2 and as that which is divine is mightiest1 so that is next mightiest which comes closest to the divine4 7#e7 ,cf4 ,aristot4 ,eth4 ,n4 x4 viii4 #a4 ,returning to the charge at another time1 this same ,antiphon engaged ,socrates in conversation thus4 ,ant4 ,socrates1 for my part1 ,i believe you to be a good and upright man2 but for your wisdom ,i cannot say much4 ,i fancy you would hardly dispute the verdict yourself1 since1 as ,i remark1 you do not ask a money payment for your society2 and yet if it were your cloak now1 or your house1 or any other of your possessions1 you would set some value upon it1 and never dream1 ,i will not say of parting with it gratis1 but of exchanging it for less than its worth4 ,a plain proof1 to my mind1 that if you thought your society worth anything1 you would ask for it not less than its equivalent in gold4 7#f7 ,hence the conclusion to which ,i have come1 as already stated3 good and upright you may be1 since you do not cheat people from pure selfishness2 but wise you cannot be1 since your knowledge is not worth a cent4 7#f7 ,or rather money1 lit4 silver4 ,to this onslaught ,socrates3 ,antiphon1 it is a tenet which we cling to that beauty and wisdom have this in common1 that there is a fair way and a foul way in which to dispose of them4 ,the vendor of beauty purchases an evil name1 but supposing the same person has discerned a soul of beauty in his lover and makes that man his friend1 we regard his choice as sensible4 7#g7 ,so is it with wisdom2 he who sells it for money to the first bidder we name a sophist1 7#h7 as though one should say a man who prostitutes his wisdom2 but if the same man1 discerning the noble nature of another1 shall teach that other every good thing1 and make him his friend1 of such a one we say he does that which it is the duty of every good citizen of gentle soul to do4 ,in accordance with this theory1 ,i too1 ,antiphon1 having my tastes1 even as another finds pleasure in his horse and his hounds1 7#i7 and another in his fighting cocks1 so ,i too take my pleasure in good friends2 and if ,i have any good thing myself ,i teach it them1 or ,i commend them to others by whom ,i think they will be helped forwards on the path of virtue4 ,the treasures also of the wise of old1 written and bequeathed in their books1 7#aj7 ,i unfold and peruse in common with my friends4 ,if our eye light upon any good thing we cull it eagerly1 and regard it as great gain if we may but grow in friendship with one another4 7#g7 ,add and a sign of modesty1 sophrona nomizomen4 7#h7 sophistas4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #dhb foll42 ,hunting1 xi4 foll4 7#i7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,lys4 #baa ,e4 7#aj7 ,cf4 ,symp4 iv4 #bg4 ,as ,i listened to this talk ,i could not but reflect that he1 the master1 was a person to be envied1 and that we1 his hearers1 were being led by him to beauty and nobility of soul4 ,again on some occasion the same ,antiphon asked ,socrates how he expected to make politicians of others when1 even if he had the knowledge1 he did not engage in politics himself4 ,socrates replied3 ,i will put to you a question1 ,antiphon3 ,which were the more statesmanlike proceeding1 to practise politics myself single-handed1 or to devote myself to making as many others as possible fit to engage in that pursuit8 ,,vii ,let us here turn and consider whether by deterring his associates from quackery and false seeming he did not directly stimulate them to the pursuit of virtue4 7#a7 ,he used often to say there was no better road to renown than the one by which a man became good at that wherein he desired to be reputed good4 7#b7 ,the truth of the concept he enforced as follows3 ,let us reflect on what a man would be driven to do who wanted to be thought a good flute player1 without really being so4 ,he would be forced to imitate the good flute player in the externals of his art1 would he not8 and first or all1 seeing that these artists always have a splendid equipment1 7#c7 and travel about with a long train of attendants1 he must have the same2 in the next place1 they can command the plaudits of a multitude1 he therefore must pack a conclave of clackers4 ,but one thing is clear3 nothing must induce him to give a performance1 or he will be exposed at once1 and find himself a laughing-stock not only as a sorry sort of flute player1 but as a wretched imposter4 ,and now he has a host of expenses to meet2 and not one advantage to be reaped2 and worse than all his evil reputation4 ,what is left him but to lead a life stale and unprofitable1 the scorn and mockery of men8 ,let us try another case4 ,suppose a man wished to be thought a good general or a good pilot1 though he were really nothing of the sort1 let us picture to our minds how it will fare with him4 ,of two misfortunes one3 either with a strong desire to be thought proficient in these matters1 he will fail to get others to agree with him1 which will be bad enough2 or he will succeed1 with worse result2 since it stands to reason that anyone appointed to work a vessel or lead an army without the requisite knowledge will speedily ruin a number of people whom he least desires to hurt1 and will make but a sorry exit from the stage himself4 ,thus first by one instance and then another would he demonstrate the unprofitableness of trying to appear rich1 or courageous1 or strong1 without really being the thing pretended4 ,you are sure sooner or later to have commands laid upon you beyond your power to execute1 and failing just where you are credited with capacity1 the world will give you no commiseration4 ,i call that man a cheat1 and a great cheat too1 he would say1 who gets money or goods out of some one by persuasion1 and defrauds him2 but of all imposters he surely is the biggest who can delude people into thinking that he is fit to lead the state1 when all the while he is a worthless creature4 7#d7 7#a7 apotrepon proutrepen4 ,see ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #dej foll4 7#b7 ,cf4 ,cyrop4 ,i4 vi4 #bb4 7#c7 ,or1 furniture of the finest1 like ,arion's in ,herod4 i4 #bd4 ,schneid4 cf4 ,demosth4 #efe4 #f4 7#d7 ,here follows the sentence 7emoi men oun edokei kai tou alazoneuesthai apotrepein tous sunontas toiade dialegomenos71 which1 for the sake of convenience1 ,i have attached to the first sentence of ,bk4 ,,ii4 ch4 i4 7edokei de moi444 ponou47 ,i believe that the commentators are right in bracketing both one and the other as editorial interpolations4 ,,book ,,ii ,i ,now1 if the effect of such discourses was1 as ,i imagine1 to deter his hearers from the paths of quackery and false-seeming1 7#a7 so ,i am sure that language like the following was calculated to stimulate his followers to practise self-control and endurance3 self-control in the matters of eating1 drinking1 sleeping1 and the cravings of lust2 endurance of cold and heat and toil and pain4 ,he had noticed the undue licence which one of his acquaintances allowed himself in all such matters4 7#b7 ,accordingly he thus addressed him3 7#a7 ,this sentence in the ,greek concludes ,bk4 ,i4 ,there is something wrong or very awkward in the text here4 7#b7 ,cf4 ,grote1 ,plato1 ,,iii4 xxxviii4 p4 #ecj4 ,tell me1 ,aristippus 7,socrates said71 supposing you had two children entrusted to you to educate1 one of them must be brought up with an aptitude for government1 and the other without the faintest propensity to rule--how would you educate them8 ,what do you say8 ,shall we begin our inquiry from the beginning1 as it were1 with the bare elements of food and nutriment8 ,ar4 ,yes1 food to begin with1 by all means1 being a first principle1 7#c7 without which there is no man living but would perish4 7#c7 ,aristippus plays upon the word arkhe4 ,soc4 ,well1 then1 we may expect1 may we not1 that a desire to grasp food at certain seasons will exhibit itself in both the children8 ,ar4 ,it is to be expected4 ,soc4 ,which1 then1 of the two must be trained1 of his own free will1 7#d7 to prosecute a pressing business rather than gratify the belly8 7#d7 proairesis4 ,ar4 ,no doubt the one who is being trained to govern1 if we would not have affairs of state neglected during 7#e7 his government4 7#e7 ,lit4 along of4 ,soc4 ,and the same pupil must be furnished with a power of holding out against thirst also when the craving to quench it comes upon him8 ,ar4 ,certainly he must4 ,soc4 ,and on which of the two shall we confer such self-control in regard to sleep as shall enable him to rest late and rise early1 or keep vigil1 if the need arise8 ,ar4 ,to the same one of the two must be given that endurance also4 ,soc4 ,well1 and a continence in regard to matters sexual so great that nothing of the sort shall prevent him from doing his duty8 ,which of them claims that8 ,ar4 ,the same one of the pair again4 ,soc4 ,well1 and on which of the two shall be bestowed1 as a further gift1 the voluntary resolution to face toils rather than turn and flee from them8 ,ar4 ,this1 too1 belongs of right to him who is being trained for government4 ,soc4 ,well1 and to which of them will it better accord to be taught all knowledge necessary towards the mastery of antagonists8 ,ar4 ,to our future ruler certainly1 for without these parts of learning all his other capacities will be merely waste4 ,soc4 7#f7,will not a man so educated be less liable to be entrapped by rival powers1 and so escape a common fate of living creatures1 some of which 7as we all know7 are hooked through their own greediness1 and often even in spite of a native shyness2 but through appetite for food they are drawn towards the bait1 and are caught2 while others are similarly ensnared by drink8 7#f7 7,,ss4 #d1 #e1 ,l4 ,dind4 ed ,lips47 ,ar4 ,undoubtedly4 ,soc4 ,and others again are victims of amorous heat1 as quails1 for instance1 or partridges1 which1 at the cry of the hen-bird1 with lust and expectation of such joys grow wild1 and lose their power of computing dangers3 on they rush1 and fall into the snare of the hunter8 ,aristippus assented4 ,soc4 ,and would it not seem to be a base thing for a man to be affected like the silliest bird or beast8 as when the adulterer invades the innermost sanctum 7#g7 of the house1 though he is well aware of the risks which his crime involves1 7#h7 the formidable penalties of the law1 the danger of being caught in the toils1 and then suffering the direst contumely4 ,considering all the hideous penalties which hang over the adulterer's head1 considering also the many means at hand to release him from the thraldom of his passion1 that a man should so drive headlong on to the quicksands of perdition 7#i7--what are we to say of such frenzy8 ,the wretch who can so behave must surely be tormented by an evil spirit8 7#aj7 7#g7 eis as eirktas4 ,the penetralia4 7#h7 ,or1 he knows the risks he runs of suffering those penalties with which the law threatens his crime should he fall into the snare1 and being caught1 be mutilated4 7#i7 ,or1 leap headlong into the jaws of danger4 7#aj7 kakodaimonontos4 ,ar4 ,so it strikes me4 ,soc4 ,and does it not strike you as a sign of strange indifference that1 whereas the greater number of the indispensable affairs of men1 as for instance1 those of war and agriculture1 and more than half the rest1 need to be conducted under the broad canopy of heaven1 7#aa7 yet the majority of men are quite untrained to wrestle with cold and heat8 7#aa7 ,or1 in the open air4 ,aristippus again assented4 ,soc4 ,and do you not agree that he who is destined to rule must train himself to bear these things lightly8 ,ar4 ,most certainly4 ,soc4 ,and whilst we rank those who are self-disciplined in all these matters among persons fit to rule1 we are bound to place those incapable of such conduct in the category of persons without any pretension whatsoever to be rulers8 ,ar4 ,i assent4 ,soc4 ,well1 then1 since you know the rank peculiar to either section of mankind1 did it ever strike you to consider to which of the two you are best entitled to belong8 ,yes ,i have 7replied ,aristippus74 ,i do not dream for a moment of ranking myself in the class of those who wish to rule4 ,in fact1 considering how serious a business it is to cater for one's own private needs1 ,i look upon it as the mark of a fool not to be content with that1 but to further saddle oneself with the duty of providing the rest of the community with whatever they may be pleased to want4 ,that1 at the cost of much personal enjoyment1 a man should put himself at the head of a state1 and then1 if he fail to carry through every jot and tittle of that state's desire1 be held to criminal account1 does seem to me the very extravagance of folly4 ,why1 bless me6 states claim to treat their rulers precisely as ,i treat my domestic slaves4 ,i expect my attendants to furnish me with an abundance of necessaries1 but not to lay a finger on one of them themselves4 ,so these states regard it as the duty of a ruler to provide them with all the good things imaginable1 but to keep his own hands off them all the while4 7#ab7 ,so then1 for my part1 if anybody desires to have a heap of pother himself1 7#ac7 and be a nuisance to the rest of the world1 ,i will educate him in the manner suggested1 and he shall take his place among those who are fit to rule2 but for myself1 ,i beg to be enrolled amongst those who wish to spend their days as easily and pleasantly as possible4 7#ab7 ,or1 but he must have no finger in the pie himself4 7#ac7 ,see ,kuhner ad loc4 ,soc4 ,shall we then at this point turn and inquire which of the two are likely to lead the pleasanter life1 the rulers or the ruled8 ,ar4 ,by all means let us do so4 ,soc4 ,to begin then with the nations and races known to ourselves4 7#ad7 ,in ,asia the ,persians are the rulers1 while the ,syrians1 ,phrygians1 ,lydians are ruled2 and in ,europe we find the ,scythians ruling1 and the ,maeotians being ruled4 ,in ,africa 7#ae7 the ,carthaginians are rulers1 the ,libyans ruled4 ,which of these two sets respectively leads the happier life1 in your opinion8 ,or1 to come nearer home--you are yourself a ,hellene--which among ,hellenes enjoy the happier existence1 think you1 the dominant or the subject states8 7#ad7 ,or1 the outer world1 the non-,hellenic races and nationalities of which we have any knowledge4 7#ae7 ,lit4 ,libya4 ,nay1 7#af7 ,i would have you to understand 7exclaimed ,aristippus7 that ,i am just as far from placing myself in the ranks of slavery2 there is1 ,i take it1 a middle path between the two which it is my ambition to tread1 avoiding rule and slavery alike2 it lies through freedom--the high road which leads to happiness4 7#af7 ,or1 ,pardon me interrupting you1 ,socrates2 but ,i have not the slightest intention of placing myself4 ,see ,w4 ,l4 ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cjf4 ,soc4 ,true1 if only your path could avoid human beings1 as it avoids rule and slavery1 there would be something in what you say4 ,but being placed as you are amidst human beings1 if you purpose neither to rule nor to be ruled1 and do not mean to dance attendance1 if you can help it1 on those who rule1 you must surely see that the stronger have an art to seat the weaker on the stool of repentance 7#ag7 both in public and in private1 and to treat them as slaves4 ,i daresay you have not failed to note this common case3 a set of people has sown and planted1 whereupon in comes another set and cuts their corn and fells their fruit-trees1 and in every way lays siege to them because1 though weaker1 they refuse to pay them proper court1 till at length they are persuaded to accept slavery rather than war against their betters4 ,and in private life also1 you will bear me out1 the brave and powerful are known to reduce the helpless and cowardly to bondage1 and to make no small profit out of their victims4 7#ag7 ,see ,symp4 iii4 #aa2 ,cyrop4 ,,ii4 ii4 #ad2 ,plat4 ,ion1 #ece ,e2 ,l4 ,dindorf ad loc4 ,ar4 ,yes1 but ,i must tell you ,i have a simple remedy against all such misadventures4 ,i do not confine myself to any single civil community4 ,i roam the wide world a foreigner4 ,soc4 ,well1 now1 that is a masterly stroke1 upon my word6 7#ah7 ,of course1 ever since the decease of ,sinis1 and ,sciron1 and ,procrustes1 7#ai7 foreign travellers have had an easy time of it4 ,but still1 if ,i bethink me1 even in these modern days the members of free communities do pass laws in their respective countries for self-protection against wrong-doing4 ,over and above their personal connections1 they provide themselves with a host of friends2 they gird their cities about with walls and battlements2 they collect armaments to ward off evil-doers2 and to make security doubly sure1 they furnish themselves with allies from foreign states4 ,in spite of all which defensive machinery these same free citizens do occasionally fall victims to injustice4 ,but you1 who are without any of these aids2 you1 who pass half your days on the high roads where iniquity is rife2 7#bj7 you1 who1 into whatever city you enter1 are less than the least of its free members1 and moreover are just the sort of person whom any one bent on mischief would single out for attack--yet you1 with your foreigner's passport1 are to be exempt from injury8 ,so you flatter yourself4 ,and why8 ,will the state authorities cause proclamation to be made on your behalf3 ,the person of this man ,aristippus is secure2 let his going out and his coming in be free from danger8 ,is that the ground of your confidence8 or do you rather rest secure in the consciousness that you would prove such a slave as no master would care to keep8 ,for who would care to have in his house a fellow with so slight a disposition to work and so strong a propensity to extravagance8 ,suppose we stop and consider that very point3 how do masters deal with that sort of domestic8 ,if ,i am not mistaken1 they chastise his wantonness by starvation2 they balk his thieving tendencies by bars and bolts where there is anything to steal2 they hinder him from running away by bonds and imprisonment2 they drive the sluggishness out of him with the lash4 ,is it not so8 ,or how do you proceed when you discover the like tendency in one of your domestics8 7#ah7 ,or1 ,well foiled6 ,a masterly fall6 my prince of wrestlers4 7#ai7 ,for these mythical highway robbers1 see ,diod4 iv4 #ei2 and for ,sciron in particular1 ,plut4 ,theseus1 #aj4 7#bj7 ,or1 where so many suffer wrong4 ,ar4 ,i correct them with all the plagues1 till ,i force them to serve me properly4 ,but1 ,socrates1 to return to your pupil educated in the royal art1 7#ba7 which1 if ,i mistake not1 you hold to be happiness3 how1 may ,i ask1 will he be better off than others who lie in evil case1 in spite of themselves1 simply because they suffer perforce1 but in his case the hunger and the thirst1 the cold shivers and the lying awake at nights1 with all the changes he will ring on pain1 are of his own choosing8 ,for my part ,i cannot see what difference it makes1 provided it is one and the same bare back which receives the stripes1 whether the whipping be self-appointed or unasked for2 nor indeed does it concern my body in general1 provided it be my body1 whether ,i am beleaguered by a whole armament of such evils 7#bb7 of my own will or against my will--except only for the folly which attaches to self-appointed suffering4 7#ba7 ,cf4 below1 ,,iv4 ii4 #aa2 ,plat4 ,statesm4 #bei ,b2 ,euthyd4 #bia ,c2 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #chg foll4 ,aristippus anticipates ,adeimantus 7,rep4 #dai71 ,w4 ,l4 ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cie4 7#bb7 ,cf4 suffers the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune4 ,soc4 ,what1 ,aristippus1 does it not seem to you that1 as regards such matters1 there is all the difference between voluntary and involuntary suffering1 in that he who starves of his own accord can eat when he chooses1 and he who thirsts of his own free will can drink1 and so for the rest2 but he who suffers in these ways perforce cannot desist from the suffering when the humour takes him8 ,again1 he who suffers hardship voluntarily1 gaily confronts his troubles1 being buoyed on hope 7#bc7--;just as a hunter in pursuit of wild beasts1 through hope of capturing his quarry1 finds toil a pleasure--and these are but prizes of little worth in return for their labours2 but what shall we say of their reward who toil to obtain to themselves good friends1 or to subdue their enemies1 or that through strength of body and soul they may administer their households well1 befriend their friends1 and benefit the land which gave them birth8 ,must we not suppose that these too will take their sorrows lightly1 looking to these high ends8 ,must we not suppose that they too will gaily confront existence1 who have to support them not only their conscious virtue1 but the praise and admiration of the world8 7#bd7 ,and once more1 habits of indolence1 along with the fleeting pleasures of the moment1 are incapable1 as gymnastic trainers say1 of setting up 7#be7 a good habit of body1 or of implanting in the soul any knowledge worthy of account2 whereas by painstaking endeavour in the pursuit of high and noble deeds1 as good men tell us1 through endurance we shall in the end attain the goal4 ,so ,hesiod somewhere says3 7#bf7 ,wickedness may a man take wholesale with ease1 smooth is the way and her dwelling-place is very nigh2 but in front of virtue the immortal gods have placed toil and sweat1 long is the path and steep that leads to her1 and rugged at the first1 but when the summit of the pass is reached1 then for all its roughness the path grows easy4 7#bc7 ,cf4 above1 ,i4 vi4 #h4 7#bd7 ,or1 in admiration of themselves1 the praise and envy of the world at large4 7#be7 ,see ,hippocrates1 ,v4 ,med4 #ah4 7#bf7 ,hesiod1 ,works and ,days1 #bhe4 ,see ,plat4 ,prot4 #cdj ,c2 ,rep4 ii4 #cfd ,d2 ,laws1 iv4 #gah ,e4 ,and ,ephicharmus 7#bg7 bears his testimony when he says3 ,the gods sell us all good things in return for our labours4 7#bg7 ,epicharmus of ,cos1 the chief comic poet among the ,dorians1 fl4 #ejj ,b4,c4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,theaet4 #aeb ,e1 the prince of comedy2 ,gorg4 #eje ,d4 ,and again in another passage he exclaims3 ,set not thine heart on soft things1 thou knave1 lest thou light upon the hard4 ,and that wise man ,prodicus 7#bh7 delivers himself in a like strain concerning virtue in that composition of his about ,heracles1 which crowds have listened to4 7#bi7 ,this1 as far as ,i can recollect it1 is the substance at least of what he says3 7#bh7 ,prodicus of ,ceos4 ,see ,plat4 ,men4 #bd2 ,cratyl4 #a2 ,philostr4 ,vit4 ,soph4 i4 #ab4 7#bi7 ,or1 which he is fond of reciting as a specimen of style4 ,the title of the epideixis was ',orai according to ,suidas1 ,prodikos4 ,when ,heracles was emerging from boyhood into the bloom of youth1 having reached that season in which the young man1 now standing upon the verge of independence1 shows plainly whether he will enter upon the path of virtue or of vice1 he went forth into a quiet place1 and sat debating with himself which of those two paths he should pursue2 and as he there sat musing1 there appeared to him two women of great stature which drew nigh to him4 ,the one was fair to look upon1 frank and free by gift of nature1 7#cj7 her limbs adorned with purity and her eyes with bashfulness2 sobriety set the rhythm of her gait1 and she was clad in white apparel4 ,the other was of a different type2 the fleshy softness of her limbs betrayed her nurture1 while the complexion of her skin was embellished that she might appear whiter and rosier than she really was1 and her figure that she might seem taller than nature made her2 she stared with wide-open eyes1 and the raiment wherewith she was clad served but to reveal the ripeness of her bloom4 ,with frequent glances she surveyed her person1 or looked to see if others noticed her2 while ever and anon she fixed her gaze upon the shadow of herself intently4 7#cj7 ,reading eleutherion phusei1444 or if eleutherion1 phusei444 translate nature had adorned her limbs444 ,now when these two had drawn near to ,heracles1 she who was first named advanced at an even pace 7#ca7 towards him1 but the other1 in her eagerness to outstrip her1 ran forward to the youth1 exclaiming1 ',i see you1 ,heracles1 in doubt and difficulty what path of life to choose2 make me your friend1 and ,i will lead you to the pleasantest road and easiest4 ,this ,i promise you3 you shall taste all of life's sweets and escape all bitters4 ,in the first place1 you shall not trouble your brain with war or business2 other topics shall engage your mind2 7#cb7 your only speculation1 what meat or drink you shall find agreeable to your palate2 what delight 7#cc7 of ear or eye2 what pleasure of smell or touch2 what darling lover's intercourse shall most enrapture you2 how you shall pillow your limbs in softest slumber2 how cull each individual pleasure without alloy of pain2 and if ever the suspicion steal upon you that the stream of joys will one day dwindle1 trust me ,i will not lead you where you shall replenish the store by toil of body and trouble of soul4 ,no6 others shall labour1 but you shall reap the fruit of their labours2 you shall withhold your hand from nought which shall bring you gain4 ,for to all my followers ,i give authority and power to help themselves freely from every side4' 7#ca7 ,or1 without change in her demeanour4 7#cb7 ,reading diese1 or dioisei1 you shall continue speculating solely4 7#cc7 ,it will be recollected that ,prodicus prided himself on orthotes onomaton4 ,possibly ,xenophon is imitating 7caricaturing87 his style4 terphtheies1 estheies1 euphrantheies4 ,heracles hearing these words made answer3 ',what1 ,o lady1 is the name you bear8' ,to which she3 ',know that my friends call be ,happiness1 but they that hate me have their own nicknames 7#cd7 for me1 ,vice and ,naughtiness4' 7#cd7 ,so the vulg4 upokorizomenoi is interpreted4 ,cobet 7,pros4 ,xen4 p4 #cf7 suggests upoknizomenoi quippe qui desiderio pungantur4 ,but just then the other of those fair women approached and spoke3 ',heracles1 ,i too am come to you1 seeing that your parents are well known to me1 and in your nurture ,i have gauged your nature2 wherefore ,i entertain good hope that if you choose the path which leads to me1 you shall greatly bestir yourself to be the doer of many a doughty deed of noble emprise2 and that ,i too shall be held in even higher honour for your sake1 lit with the lustre shed by valorous deeds4 7#ce7 ,i will not cheat you with preludings of pleasure1 7#cf7 but ,i will relate to you the things that are according to the ordinances of ,god in very truth4 ,know then that among things that are lovely and of good report1 not one have the gods bestowed upon mortal men apart from toil and pains4 ,would you obtain the favour of the gods1 then must you pay these same gods service2 would you be loved by your friends1 you must benefit these friends2 do you desire to be honoured by the state1 you must give the state your aid2 do you claim admiration for your virtue from all ,hellas1 you must strive to do some good to ,hellas2 do you wish earth to yield her fruits to you abundantly1 to earth must you pay your court2 do you seek to amass riches from your flocks and herds1 on them must you bestow your labour2 or is it your ambition to be potent as a warrior1 able to save your friends and to subdue your foes1 then must you learn the arts of war from those who have the knowledge1 and practise their application in the field when learned2 or would you e'en be powerful of limb and body1 then must you habituate limbs and body to obey the mind1 and exercise yourself with toil and sweat4' 7#ce7 ,or1 bathed in the splendour of thy virtues4 7#cf7 ,or1 honeyed overtures of pleasure4 ,at this point1 7as ,prodicus relates7 ,vice broke in exclaiming3 ',see you1 ,heracles1 how hard and long the road is by which yonder woman would escort you to her festal joys4 7#cg7 ,but ,i will guide you by a short and easy road to happiness4' 7#cg7 ,hesiod1 ,theog4 #iji2 ,milton1 ,l',allegro1 #ab4 ,then spoke ,virtue3 ',nay1 wretched one1 what good thing hast thou8 or what sweet thing art thou acquainted with--that wilt stir neither hand nor foot to gain it8 ,thou1 that mayest not even await the desire of pleasure1 but1 or ever that desire springs up1 art already satiated2 eating before thou hungerest1 and drinking before thou thirsteth2 who to eke out an appetite must invent an army of cooks and confectioners2 and to whet thy thirst must lay down costliest wines1 and run up and down in search of ice in summer-time2 to help thy slumbers soft coverlets suffice not1 but couches and feather-beds must be prepared thee and rockers to rock thee to rest2 since desire for sleep in thy case springs not from toil but from vacuity and nothing in the world to do4 ,even the natural appetite of love thou forcest prematurely by every means thou mayest devise1 confounding the sexes in thy service4 ,thus thou educatest thy friends3 with insult in the night season and drowse of slumber during the precious hours of the day4 ,immortal1 thou art cast forth from the company of gods1 and by good men art dishonoured3 that sweetest sound of all1 the voice of praise1 has never thrilled thine ears2 and the fairest of all fair visions is hidden from thine eyes that have never beheld one bounteous deed wrought by thine own hand4 ,if thou openest thy lips in speech1 who will believe thy word8 ,if thou hast need of aught1 none shall satisfy thee4 ,what sane man will venture to join thy rablle rout8 ,ill indeed are thy revellers to look upon1 young men impotent of body1 and old men witless in mind3 in the heyday of life they batten in sleek idleness1 and wearily do they drag through an age of wrinkled wretchedness3 and why8 they blush with shame at the thought of deeds done in the past1 and groan for weariness at what is left to do4 ,during their youth they ran riot through their sweet things1 and laid up for themselves large store of bitterness against the time of eld4 ,but my companionship is with the gods2 and with the good among men my conversation2 no bounteous deed1 divine or human1 is wrought without my aid4 ,therefore am ,i honoured in ,heaven pre-eminently1 and upon earth among men whose right it is to honour me2 7#ch7 as a beloved fellow-worker of all craftsmen2 a faithful guardian of house and lands1 whom the owners bless2 a kindly helpmeet of servants2 7#ci7 a brave assistant in the labours of peace2 an unflinching ally in the deeds of war2 a sharer in all friendships indispensable4 ,to my friends is given an enjoyment of meats and drinks1 which is sweet in itself and devoid of trouble1 in that they can endure until desire ripens1 and sleep more delicious visits them than those who toil not4 ,yet they are not pained to part with it2 nor for the sake of slumber do they let slip the performance of their duties4 ,among my followers the youth delights in the praises of his elders1 and the old man glories in the honour of the young2 with joy they call to memory their deeds of old1 and in to-day's well-doing are well pleased4 ,for my sake they are dear in the sight of ,god1 beloved of their friends and honoured by the country of their birth4 ,when the appointed goal is reached they lie not down in oblivion with dishonour1 but bloom afresh--their praise resounded on the lips of men for ever4 7#dj7 ,toils like these1 ,o son of noble parents1 ,heracles1 it is yours to meet with1 and having endured1 to enter into the heritage assured you of transcendant happiness4' 7#ch7 ,reading ois prosekei1 or if proseko1 translate to whom ,i am attached4 7#ci7 ,cf4 ,econ4 v4 #h4 7#dj7 ,or1 so true is it1 a branch is left them2 undying honour to their name6 ,this1 ,aristippus1 in rough sketch is the theme which ,prodicus pursues 7#da7 in his ,education of ,heracles by ,virtue1 only he decked out his sentiments1 ,i admit1 in far more magnificent phrases than ,i have ventured on4 ,were it not well1 ,aristippus1 to lay to heart these sayings1 and to strive to bethink you somewhat of that which touches the future of our life8 7#da7 ,reading diokei1 al4 diokei so ,prodicus arranged the parts of his discourse4 ,,ii ,at another time1 he had noticed the angry temper shown by ,lamprocles1 the elder of his sons1 towards their mother1 and thus addressed himself to the lad4 ,soc4 ,pray1 my son1 did you ever hear of certain people being called ungrateful8 ,that ,i have 7replied the young man74 ,soc4 ,and have you understood what it is they do to get that bad name8 ,lamp4 ,yes1 ,i have3 when any one has been kindly treated1 and has it in his power to requite the kindness but neglects to do so1 men call him ungrateful4 ,soc4 ,and you admit that people reckon the ungrateful among wrongdoers8 ,lamp4 ,i do4 ,soc4 ,and has it ever struck you to inquire whether1 as regards the right or wrong of it1 ingratitude may not perhaps resemble some such conduct as the enslavement1 say1 of prisoners1 which is accounted wrong towards friends but justifiable towards enemies8 ,lamp4 ,yes1 ,i have put that question to myself4 ,in my opinion1 no matter who confers the kindness1 friend or foe1 the recipient should endeavour to requite it1 failing which he is a wrongdoer4 ,soc4 ,then if that is how the matter stands1 ingratitude would be an instance of pure unadulterate wrongdoing8 ,lamprocles assented to the proposition4 ,soc4 ,it follows1 then1 that in proportion to the greatness of the benefit conferred1 the greater his misdoing who fails to requite the kindness8 ,lamprocles again assented4 ,socrates continued3 ,and where can we hope to find greater benefits than those which children derive from their parents--their father and mother who brought them out of nothingness into being1 who granted them to look upon all these fair sights1 and to partake of all those blessings which the gods bestow on man1 things so priceless in our eyes that one and all we shudder at the thought of leaving them1 and states have made death the penalty for the greatest crimes1 because there is no greater evil through fear of which to stay iniquity4 ,you do not suppose that human beings produce children for the sake of carnal pleasure 7#a7 merely2 were this the motive1 street and bordell are full of means to quit them of that thrall2 whereas nothing is plainer than the pains we take to seek out wives who shall bear us the finest children4 7#b7 ,with these we wed1 and carry on the race4 ,the man has a twofold duty to perform3 partly in cherishing her who is to raise up children along with him1 and partly towards the children yet unborn in providing them with things that he thinks will contribute to their well-being--and of these as large a store as possible4 ,the woman1 conceiving1 bears her precious burthen with travail and pain1 and at the risk of life itself--sharing with that within her womb the food on which she herself is fed4 ,and when with much labour she has borne to the end and brought forth her offspring1 she feeds it and watches over it with tender care--not in return for any good thing previously received1 for indeed the babe itself is little conscious of its benefactor and cannot even signify its wants2 only she1 the mother1 making conjecture of what is good for it1 and what will please it1 essays to satisfy it2 7#c7 and for many months she feeds it night and day1 enduring the toil nor recking what return she shall receive for all her trouble4 ,nor does the care and kindness of parents end with nurture2 but when the children seem of an age to learn1 they teach them themselves whatever cunning they possess1 as a guide to life1 or where they feel that another is more competent1 to him they send them to be taught at their expense4 ,thus they watch over their children1 doing all in their power to enable them to grow up to be as good as possible4 7#a7 ,lit4 the joys of ,aphrodite4 7#b7 ,for the procreation of children4 ,see below1 ,,iv4 iv4 #bb2 ,pol4 ,lac4 i4 7#c7 ,lit4 to leave nought lacking4 ,so be it 7the youth answered72 but even if she have done all that1 and twenty times as much1 no soul on earth could endure my mother's cross-grained temper4 ,then ,socrates3 ,which1 think you1 would be harder to bear--a wild beast's savagery or a mother's8 ,lamp4 ,to my mind1 a mother's--at least if she be such as mine4 ,soc4 ,dear me6 ,and has this mother ever done you any injury--such as people frequently receive from beasts1 by bite or kick8 ,lamp4 ,if she has not done quite that1 she uses words which any one would sooner sell his life than listen to4 ,soc4 ,and how many annoyances have you caused your mother1 do you suppose1 by fretfulness and peevishness in word and deed1 night and day1 since you were a little boy8 ,how much sorrow and pain1 when you were ill8 ,lamp4 ,well1 ,i never said or did anything to bring a blush to her cheeks4 ,soc4 ,no1 come now6 ,do you suppose it is harder for you to listen to your mother's speeches than for actor to listen to actor on the tragic stage1 7#d7 when the floodgates of abuse are opened8 7#d7 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #deg2 ,plut4 ,solon1 xxix4 ,lamp4 ,yes2 for the simple reason that they know it is all talk on their parts4 ,the inquisitor may cross-question1 but he will not inflict a fine2 the threatener may hurl his menaces1 but he will do no mischief--that is why they take it all so easily4 ,soc4 ,then ought you to fly into a passion1 who know well enough that1 whatever your mother says1 she is so far from meaning you mischief that she is actually wishing blessings to descend upon you beyond all others8 ,or do you believe that your mother is really ill disposed towards you8 ,lamp4 ,no1 ,i do not think that4 ,soc4 ,then this mother1 who is kindly disposed to you1 and takes such tender care of you when you are ill to make you well again1 and to see that you want for nothing which may help you2 and1 more than all1 who is perpetually pleading for blessings in your behalf and offering her vows to ,heaven 7#e7--;can you say of her that she is cross-grained and harsh8 ,for my part1 ,i think1 if you cannot away with such a mother1 you cannot away with such blessings either4 7#e7 ,or1 paying vows4 ,but tell me 7he proceeded71 do you owe service to any living being1 think you8 or are you prepared to stand alone8 ,prepared not to please or try to please a single soul8 to follow none8 ,to obey neither general nor ruler of any sort8 ,is that your attitude1 or do you admit that you owe allegiance to somebody8 ,lamp4 ,yes2 certainly ,i owe allegiance4 ,soc4 ,may ,i take it that you are willing to please at any rate your neighbour1 so that he may kindle a fire for you in your need1 may prove himself a ready helpmate in good fortune1 or if you chance on evil and are stumbling1 may friendlily stand by your side to aid8 ,lamp4 ,i am willing4 ,soc4 ,well1 and what of that other chance companion--your fellow-traveller by land or sea8 what of any others1 you may light upon8 is it indifferent to you whether these be friends or not1 or do you admit that the goodwill of these is worth securing by some pains on your part8 ,lamp4 ,i do4 ,soc4 ,it stands thus then3 you are prepared to pay attention to this1 that1 and the other stranger1 but to your mother who loves you more than all else1 you are bound to render no service1 no allegiance8 ,do you not know that whilst the state does not concern itself with ordinary ingratitude or pass judicial sentence on it2 whilst it overlooks the thanklessness of those who fail to make return for kindly treatment1 it reserves its pains and penalties for the special case8 ,if a man render not the service and allegiance due to his parents1 on him the finger of the law is laid2 his name is struck off the roll2 he is forbidden to hold the archonship--which is as much as to say1 ,sacrifices in behalf of the state offered by such a man would be no offerings1 being tainted with impiety2 nor could aught else be 'well and justly' performed of which he is the doer4 ,heaven help us6 ,if a man fail to adorn the sepulchre of his dead parents the state takes cognisance of the matter1 and inquisition is made in the scrutiny of the magistrates4 7#f7 ,and as for you1 my son1 if you are in your sober senses1 you will earnestly entreat your mother1 lest the very gods take you to be an ungrateful being1 and on their side also refuse to do you good2 and you will beware of men also1 lest they should perceive your neglect of your parents1 and with one consent hold you in dishonour2 7#g7 and so you find yourself in a desert devoid of friends4 ,for if once the notion be entertained that here is a man ungrateful to his parents1 no one will believe that any kindness shown you would be other than thrown away4 7#f7 ,lit4 the docimasia4 ,see ,gow1 ,companion1 xiv4 7#g7 ,visiti with atimia4 ,,iii ,at another time the differences between two brothers named ,chaerephon and ,chaerecrates1 both well known to him1 had drawn his attention2 and on seeing the younger of the two he thus addressed him4 ,soc4 ,tell me1 ,chaerecrates1 you are not1 ,i take it1 one of those strange people who believe that goods are better and more precious than a brother2 7#a7 and that too although the former are but senseless chattels which need protection1 the latter a sensitive and sensible being who can afford it2 and what is more1 he is himself alone1 whilst as for them their name is legion4 ,and here again is a marvellous thing3 that a man should count his brother a loss1 because the goods of his brother are not his2 but he does not count his fellow-citizens loss1 and yet their possessions are not his2 only it seems in their case he has wits to see that to dwell securely with many and have enough is better than to own the whole wealth of a community and to live in dangerous isolation2 but this same doctrine as applied to brothers they ignore4 ,again1 if a man have the means1 he will purchase domestic slaves1 because he wants assistants in his work2 he will acquire friends1 because he needs their support2 but this brother of his--who cares about brothers8 ,it seems a friend may be discovered in an ordinary citizen1 but not in a blood relation who is also a brother4 ,and yet it is a great vantage-ground towards friendship to have sprung from the same loins and to have been suckled at the same breasts1 since even among beasts a certain natural craving1 and sympathy springs up between creatures reared together4 7#b7 ,added to which1 a man who has brothers commands more respect from the rest of the world than the man who has none1 and who must fight his own battles4 7#c7 7#a7 ,cf4 ,merchant of ,venice1 ,,ii4 viii4 #ag3 ,justice6 the law6 my ducats1 and my daughter6 7#b7 ,or1 a yearning after their foster-brothers manifests itself in animals4 ,see ,cyrop4 ,,viii4 vii4 #ad foll4 for a parallel to this discussion4 7#c7 ,lit4 and is less liable to hostility4 ,chaer4 ,i daresay1 ,socrates1 where the differences are not profound1 reason would a man should bear with his brother1 and not avoid him for some mere trifle's sake1 for a brother of the right sort is1 as you say1 a blessing2 but if he be the very antithesis of that1 why should a man lay his hand to achieve the impossible8 ,soc4 ,well now1 tell me1 is there nobody whom ,chaerephon can please any more than he can please yourself2 or do some people find him agreeable enough8 ,chaer4 ,nay1 there you hit it4 ,that is just why ,i have a right to detest him4 ,he can be pleasing enough to others1 but to me1 whenever he appears on the scene1 he is not a blessing--no6 but by every manner of means the reverse4 ,soc4 ,may it not happen that just as a horse is no gain to the inexpert rider who essays to handle him1 so in like manner1 if a man tries to deal with his brother after an ignorant fashion1 this same brother will kick8 ,chaer4 ,but is it likely now8 ,how should ,i be ignorant of the art of dealing with my brother if ,i know the art of repaying kind words and good deeds in kind8 ,but a man who tries all he can to annoy me by word and deed1 ,i can neither bless nor benefit1 and1 what is more1 ,i will not try4 ,soc4 ,well now1 that is a marvellous statement1 ,chaerecrates4 ,your dog1 the serviceable guardian of your flocks1 who will fawn and lick the hand of your shepherd1 when you come near him can only growl and show his teeth4 ,well2 you take no notice of the dog's ill-temper1 you try to propitiate him by kindness2 but your brother8 ,if your brother were what he ought to be1 he would be a great blessing to you--that you admit2 and1 as you further confess1 you know the secret of kind acts and words1 yet you will not set yourself to apply means to make him your best of friends4 ,chaer4 ,i am afraid1 ,socrates1 that ,i have no wisdom or cunning to make ,chaerephon bear himself towards me as he should4 ,soc4 ,yet there is no need to apply any recondite or novel machinery4 ,only bait your hook in the way best known to yourself1 and you will capture him2 whereupon he will become your devoted friend4 ,chaer4 ,if you are aware that ,i know some love-charm1 ,socrates1 of which ,i am the happy but unconscious possessor1 pray make haste and enlighten me4 ,soc4 ,answer me then4 ,suppose you wanted to get some acquaintance to invite you to dinner when he next keeps holy day1 7#d7 what steps would you take8 7#d7 ,when he next does sacrifice2 see ,hiero1 viii4 #c4 ,cf4 ,theophr4 ,char4 xv4 #b1 and ,prof4 ,jebb's note ad loc4 ,chaer4 ,no doubt ,i should set him a good example by inviting him myself on a like occasion4 ,soc4 ,and if you wanted to induce some friend to look after your affairs during your absence abroad1 how would you achieve your purpose8 ,chaer4 ,no doubt ,i should present a precedent in undertaking to look after his in like circumstances4 ,soc4 ,and if you wished to get some foreign friend to take you under his roof while visiting his country1 what would you do8 ,chaer4 ,no doubt ,i should begin by offering him the shelter of my own roof when he came to ,athens1 in order to enlist his zeal in furthering the objects of my visit2 it is plain ,i should first show my readiness to do as much for him in a like case4 ,soc4 ,why1 it seems you are an adept after all in all the philtres known to man1 only you chose to conceal your knowledge all the while2 or is it that you shrink from taking the first step because of the scandal you will cause by kindly advances to your brother8 ,and yet it is commonly held to redound to a man's praise to have outstripped an enemy in mischief or a friend in kindness4 ,now if it seemed to me that ,chaerephon were better fitted to lead the way towards this friendship1 7#e7 ,i should have tried to persuade him to take the first step in winning your affection1 but now ,i am persuaded the first move belongs to you1 and to you the final victory4 7#e7 ,reading pros ten philian1 or if phusin1 transl4 natural disposition4 ,chaer4 ,a startling announcement1 ,socrates1 from your lips1 and most unlike you1 to bid me the younger take precedence of my elder brother4 ,why1 it is contrary to the universal custom of mankind1 who look to the elder to take the lead in everything1 whether as a speaker or an actor4 ,soc4 ,how so8 ,is it not the custom everywhere for the younger to step aside when he meets his elder in the street and to give him place8 ,is he not expected to get up and offer him his seat1 to pay him the honour of a soft couch1 7#f7 to yield him precedence in argument8 7#f7 ,lit4 with a soft bed1 or1 as we say1 the best bedroom4 ,my good fellow1 do not stand shilly-shallying1 7#g7 but put out your hand caressingly1 and you will see the worthy soul will respond at once with alacrity4 ,do you not note your brother's character1 proud and frank and sensitive to honour8 ,he is not a mean and sorry rascal to be caught by a bribe--no better way indeed for such riff-raff4 ,no6 gentle natures need a finer treatment4 ,you can best hope to work on them by affection4 7#g7 ,or1 have no fears1 essay a soothing treatment4 ,chaer4 ,but suppose ,i do1 and suppose that1 for all my attempts1 he shows no change for the better8 ,soc4 ,at the worst you will have shown yourself to be a good1 honest1 brotherly man1 and he will appear as a sorry creature on whom kindness is wasted4 ,but nothing of the sort is going to happen1 as ,i conjecture4 ,my belief is that as soon as he hears your challenge1 he will embrace the contest2 pricked on by emulous pride1 he will insist upon getting the better of you in kindness of word and deed4 ,at present you two are in the condition of two hands formed by ,god to help each other1 but which have let go their business and have turned to hindering one another all they can4 ,you are a pair of feet fashioned on the ,divine plan to work together1 but which have neglected this in order to trammel each other's gait4 ,now is it not insensate stupidity 7#h7 to use for injury what was meant for advantage8 ,and yet in fashioning two brothers ,god intends them1 methinks1 to be of more benefit to one another than either two hands1 or two feet1 or two eyes1 or any other of those pairs which belong to man from his birth4 7#i7 ,consider how powerless these hands of ours if called upon to combine their action at two points more than a single fathom's length apart2 7#aj7 and these feet could not stretch asunder 7#aa7 even a bare fathom2 and these eyes1 for all the wide-reaching range we claim for them1 are incapable of seeing simultaneously the back and front of an object at even closer quarters4 ,but a pair of brothers1 linked in bonds of amity1 can work each for the other's good1 though seas divide them4 7#ab7 7#h7 ,boorishness verging upon monomania4 7#i7 ,with which man is endowed at birth4 7#aj7 ,more than an 'arms'-stretch' asunder4 7#aa7 ,lit4 reach at one stretch two objects1 even over that small distance4 7#ab7 ,though leagues separate them4 ,,iv ,i have at another time heard him discourse on the kindred theme of friendship in language well calculated1 as it seemed to me1 to help a man to choose and also to use his friends aright4 ,he 7,socrates7 had often heard the remark made that of all possessions there is none equal to that of a good and sincere friend2 but1 in spite of this assertion1 the mass of people1 as far as he could see1 concerned themselves about nothing so little as the acquisition of friends4 ,houses1 and fields1 and slaves1 and cattle1 and furniture of all sorts 7he said7 they were at pains to acquire1 and they strove hard to keep what they had got2 but to procure for themselves this greatest of all blessings1 as they admitted a friend to be1 or to keep the friends whom they already possessed1 not one man in a hundred ever gave himself a thought4 ,it was noticeable1 in the case of a sickness befalling a man's friend and one of his own household simultaneously1 the promptness with which the master would fetch the doctor to his domestic1 and take every precaution necessary for his recovery1 with much expenditure of pains2 but meanwhile little account would be taken of the friend in like condition1 and if both should die1 he will show signs of deep annoyance at the death of his domestic1 which1 as he reflects1 is a positive loss to him2 but as regards his friend his position is in no wise materially affected1 and thus1 though he would never dream of leaving his other possessions disregarded and ill cared for1 friendship's mute appeal is met with flat indifference4 7#a7 7#a7 ,or1 the cry of a friend for careful tending falls on deaf ears4 ,or to take 7said he7 a crowning instance3 7#b7 with regard to ordinary possessions1 however multifarious these may be1 most people are at least acquainted with their number1 but if you ask a man to enumerate his friends1 who are not so very many after all perhaps1 he cannot2 or if1 to oblige the inquirer1 he essays to make a list1 he will presently retract the names of some whom he had previously included4 7#c7 ,such is the amount of thought which people bestow upon their friends4 7#b7 ,or1 ,nor had he failed to observe another striking contrast4 ,cf4 ,cic4 ,lael4 #ag2 ,diog4 ,laert4 ii4 #cj4 7#c7 i4e4 like a chess-player recalling a move4 ,and yet what thing else may a man call his own is comparable to this one best possession6 what rather will not serve by contrast to enhance the value of an honest friend6 ,think of a horse or a yoke of oxen2 they have their worth2 but who shall gauge the worth of a worthy friend8 ,kindlier and more constant than the faithfullest of slaves--this is that possession best named all-serviceable4 7#d7 ,consider what the post is that he assigns himself6 to meet and supplement what is lacking to the welfare of his friends1 to promote their private and their public interests1 is his concern4 ,is there need of kindly action in any quarter8 he will throw in the full weight of his support4 ,does some terror confound8 he is at hand to help and defend by expenditure of money and of energy1 7#e7 by appeals to reason or resort to force4 ,his the privilege alike to gladden the prosperous in the hour of success and to sustain their footing who have well-nigh slipped4 ,all that the hands of a man may minister1 all that the eyes of each are swift to see1 the ears to hear1 and the feet to compass1 he with his helpful arts will not fall short of4 ,nay1 not seldom that which a man has failed to accomplish for himself1 has missed seeing or hearing or attaining1 a friend acting in behalf of friend will achieve vicariously4 ,and yet1 albeit to try and tend a tree for the sake of its fruit is not uncommon1 this copious mine of wealth--this friend--attracts only a lazy and listless attention on the part of more than half the world4 7#d7 ,a vessel fit for all work indeed is this friend4 ,cf4 ,ar4 ,ach4 #icf1 pagkhreston aggos estai1 like the leather bottel4 7#e7 ,or1 by dint of his diplomacy4 ,v ,i remember listening to another argument of his1 the effect of which would be to promote self-examination4 ,the listener must needs be brought to ask himself1 ,of what worth am ,i to my friends8 ,it happened thus4 ,one of those who were with him was neglectful1 as he noted1 of a friend who was at the pinch of poverty 7,antisthenes74 7#a7 ,accordingly1 in the presence of the negligent person and of several others1 he proceeded to question the sufferer4 7#a7 ,antisthenes1 cynicorum et stoicorum parens4 ,cic4 de ,or4 iii4 #ag2 ad ,att4 xii4 #ch4 ,see below1 ,,iii4 iii4 #ag2 ,symp4 passim2 ,diog4 ,laert4 ,,ii4 v42 ,,vi4 i4 ,soc4 ,what say you1 ,antisthenes8--have friends their values like domestic slaves8 ,one of these latter may be worth perhaps two minae1 7#b7 another only half a mina1 a third five1 and a fourth as much as ten2 while they do say that ,nicias1 7#c7 the son of ,niceratus1 paid a whole talent for a superintendent of his silver mines4 ,and so ,i propound the question to myself as follows3 ,have friends1 like slaves1 their market values8 7#b7 ,a mina ,l#d circ4 7#c7 ,for ,nicias see ,thuc4 vii4 #gg foll42 ,revenues1 iv4 #ad2 ,plut4 ,nic4 ,,iv4 v42 ,lys4 de bon4 ,aristoph4 #fdh4 ,not a doubt of it 7replied ,antisthenes74 ,at any rate1 ,i know that ,i would rather have such a one as my friend than be paid two minae1 and there is such another whose worth ,i would not estimate at half a mina1 and a third with whom ,i would not part for ten1 and then again a fourth whose friendship would be cheap if it cost me all the wealth and pains in the world to purchase it4 ,well then 7continued ,socrates71 if that be so1 would it not be well if every one were to examine himself3 ,what after all may ,i chance to be worth to my friends8 ,should he not try to become as dear as possible1 so that his friends will not care to give him up8 ,how often do ,i hear the complaint3 ,my friend ,so-and-so has given me up2 or ,such an one1 whom ,i looked upon as a friend1 has sacrificed me for a mina4 ,and every time ,i hear these remarks1 the question arises in my mind3 ,if the vendor of a worthless slave is ready to part with him to a purchaser for what he will fetch--is there not at least a strong temptation to part with a base friend when you have a chance of making something on the exchange8 ,good slaves1 as far as ,i can see1 are not so knocked down to the hammer2 no1 nor good friends so lightly parted with4 ,,vi ,again1 in reference to the test to be applied1 if we would gauge the qualifications of a friend worth the winning1 the following remarks of ,socrates could not fail1 ,i think1 to prove instructive4 7#a7 7#a7 ,or1 ,again1 as to establishing a test of character1 since a friend worth having must be of a particular type1 ,i cannot but think that the following remarks would prove instructive4 ,tell me 7said ,socrates1 addressing ,critobulus71 supposing we stood in need of a good friend1 how should we set about his discovery8 ,we must1 in the first place1 ,i suppose1 seek out one who is master of his appetites1 not under the dominion1 that is1 of his belly1 not addicted to the wine-cup or to lechery or sleep or idleness1 since no one enslaved to such tyrants could hope to do his duty either by himself or by his friends1 could he8 ,certainly not 7,critobulus answered74 ,soc4 ,do you agree1 then1 that we must hold aloof from every one so dominated8 ,cri4 ,most assuredly4 ,well then 7proceeded ,socrates71 what shall we say of the spendthrift who has lost his independence and is for ever begging of his neighbours2 if he gets anything out of them he cannot repay1 but if he fails to get anything1 he hates you for not giving--do you not think that this man too would prove but a disagreeable friend8 ,cri4 ,certainly4 ,soc4 ,then we must keep away from him too8 ,cri4 ,that we must4 ,soc4 ,well6 and what of the man whose strength lies in monetary transactions8 7#b7 ,his one craving is to amass money2 and for that reason he is an adept at driving a hard bargain 7#c7--;glad enough to take in1 but loath to pay out4 7#b7 ,or1 the money-lender8 ,he has a passion for big money-bags4 7#c7 ,or1 hard in all his dealings4 ,cri4 ,in my opinion he will prove even a worse fellow than the last4 ,soc4 ,well6 and what of that other whose passion for money-making is so absorbing that he has no leisure for anything else1 save how he may add to his gains8 ,cri4 ,hold aloof from him1 say ,i1 since there is no good to be got out of him or his society4 ,soc4 ,well6 what of the quarrelsome and factious person 7#d7 whose main object is to saddle his friends with a host of enemies8 7#d7 ,the partisan4 ,cri4 ,for ,god's sake let us avoid him also4 ,soc4 ,but now we will imagine a man exempt indeed from all the above defects--a man who has no objection to receive kindnesses1 but it never enters into his head to do a kindness in return4 ,cri4 ,there will be no good in him either4 ,but1 ,socrates1 what kind of man shall we endeavour to make our friend8 what is he like8 ,soc4 ,i should say he must be just the converse of the above3 he has control over the pleasures of the body1 he is kindly disposed1 7#e7 upright in all his dealings1 7#f7 very zealous is he not to be outdone in kindness by his benefactors1 if only his friends may derive some profit from his acquaintance4 7#e7 ,reading eunous1 or if euorkos1 transl4 a man of his word4 7#f7 ,or1 easy to deal with4 ,cri4 ,but how are we to test these qualities1 ,socrates1 before acquaintance8 ,soc4 ,how do we test the merits of a sculptor8--not by inferences drawn from the talk of the artist merely4 ,no1 we look to what he has already achieved4 ,these former statues of his were nobly executed1 and we trust he will do equally well with the rest4 ,cri4 ,you mean that if we find a man whose kindness to older friends is established1 we may take it as proved that he will treat his newer friends as amiably8 ,soc4 ,why1 certainly1 if ,i see a man who has shown skill in the handling of horses previously1 ,i argue that he will handle others no less skilfully again4 ,cri4 ,good6 and when we have discovered a man whose friendship is worth having1 how ought we to make him our friend8 ,soc4 ,first we ought to ascertain the will of ,heaven whether it be advisable to make him our friend4 ,cri4 ,well6 and how are we to effect the capture of this friend of our choice1 whom the gods approve8 will you tell me that8 ,not1 in good sooth 7replied ,socrates71 by running him down like a hare1 nor by decoying him like a bird1 or by force like a wild boar4 7#g7 ,to capture a friend against his will is a toilsome business1 and to bind him in fetters like a slave by no means easy4 ,those who are so treated are apt to become foes instead of friends4 7#h7 7#g7 ,reading kaproi1 al4 ekhthroi1 an enemy4 7#h7 ,or1 ,hate rather than friendship is the outcome of these methods4 ,cri4 ,but how convert them into friends8 ,soc4 ,there are certain incantations1 we are told1 which those who know them have only to utter1 and they can make friends of whom they list2 and there are certain philtres also which those who have the secret of them may administer to whom they like and win their love4 ,cri4 ,from what source shall we learn them8 ,soc4 ,you need not go farther than ,homer to learn that which the ,sirens sang to ,odysseus1 7#i7 the first words of which run1 ,i think1 as follows3 ,hither1 come hither1 thou famous man1 ,odysseus1 great glory of the ,achaeans6 7#i7 ,od4 xii4 #ahd4 ,cri4 ,and did the magic words of this spell serve for all men alike8 ,had the ,sirens only to utter this one incantation1 and was every listener constrained to stay8 ,soc4 ,no2 this was the incantation reserved for souls athirst for fame1 of virtue emulous4 ,cri4 ,which is as much as to say1 we must suit the incantation to the listener1 so that when he hears the words he shall not think that the enchanter is laughing at him in his sleeve4 ,i cannot certainly conceive a method better calculated to excite hatred and repulsion than to go to some one who knows that he is small and ugly and a weakling1 and to breathe in his ears the flattering tale that he is beautiful and tall and stalwart4 ,but do you know any other love-charms1 ,socrates8 ,soc4 ,i cannot say that ,i do2 but ,i have heard that ,pericles 7#aj7 was skilled in not a few1 which he poured into the ear of our city and won her love4 7#aj7 ,see above1 ,i4 ii4 #dj2 ,symp4 viii4 #ci4 ,cri4 ,and how did ,themistocles 7#aa7 win our city's love8 7#aa7 ,see below1 ,,iii4 vi4 #b2 ,,iv4 ii4 #b4 ,soc4 ,ah1 that was not by incantation at all4 ,what he did was to encircle our city with an amulet of saving virtue4 7#ab7 7#ab7 ,see ,herod4 vii4 #adc1 the wooden wall2 ,thuc4 i4 #ic1 'the walls' of ,athens4 ,cri4 ,you would imply1 ,socrates1 would you not1 that if we want to win the love of any good man we need to be good ourselves in speech and action8 ,and did you imagine 7replied ,socrates7 that it was possible for a bad man to make good friends8 ,cri4 ,why1 ,i could fancy ,i had seen some sorry speech-monger who was fast friends with a great and noble statesman2 or again1 some born commander and general who was boon companion with fellows quite incapable of generalship4 7#ac7 7#ac7 ,or1 ,why1 yes1 when ,i see some base orator fast friends with a great leader of the people2 or1 again1 some fellow incapable of generalship a comrade to the greatest captains of his age4 ,soc4 ,but in reference to the point we were discussing1 may ,i ask whether you know of any one who can attach a useful friend to himself without being of use in return8 7#ad7 ,can service ally in friendship with disservice8 7#ad7 ,add1 ,can service ally in friendship with disservice8 ,must there not be a reciprocity of service to make friendship lasting8 ,cri4 ,in good sooth no4 ,but now1 granted it is impossible for a base man to be friends with the beautiful and noble1 7#ad7 ,i am concerned at once to discover if one who is himself of a beautiful and noble character can1 with a wave of the hand1 as it were1 attach himself in friendship to every other beautiful and noble nature4 7#ad7 kalous kagathous4 ,soc4 ,what perplexes and confounds you1 ,critobulus1 is the fact that so often men of noble conduct1 with souls aloof from baseness1 are not friends but rather at strife and discord with one another1 and deal more harshly by one another than they would by the most good-for-nothing of mankind4 ,cri4 ,yes1 and this holds true not of private persons only1 but states1 the most eager to pursue a noble policy and to repudiate a base one1 are frequently in hostile relation to one another4 ,as ,i reason on these things my heart fails me1 and the question1 how friends are to be acquired1 fills me with despondency4 ,the bad1 as ,i see1 cannot be friends with one another4 ,for how can such people1 the ungrateful1 or reckless1 or covetous1 or faithless1 or incontinent1 adhere together as friends8 ,without hesitation ,i set down the bad as born to be foes not friends1 and as bearing the birthmark of internecine hate4 ,but then again1 as you suggest1 no more can these same people harmonise in friendship with the good4 ,for how should they who do evil be friends with those who hate all evil-doing8 ,and if1 last of all1 they that cultivate virtue are torn by party strife in their struggle for the headship of the states1 envying one another1 hating one another1 who are left to be friends8 where shall goodwill and faithfulness be found among men8 ,soc4 ,the fact is there is some subtlety in the texture of these things4 7#ae7 ,seeds of love are implanted in man by nature4 ,men have need of one another1 feel pity1 help each other by united efforts1 and in recognition of the fact show mutual gratitude4 ,but there are seeds of war implanted also4 ,the same objects being regarded as beautiful or agreeable by all alike1 they do battle for their possession2 a spirit of disunion 7#af7 enters1 and the parties range themselves in adverse camps4 ,discord and anger sound a note of war3 the passion of more-having1 staunchless avarice1 threatens hostility2 and envy is a hateful fiend4 7#ag7 7#ae7 i4e4 a cunning intertwining of the threads of warp and woof4 7#af7 ,cf4 ,shelley1 ,the devil of disunion in their souls4 7#ag7 ,the diction is poetical4 ,but nevertheless1 through all opposing barriers friendship steals her way and binds together the beautiful and good among mankind4 7#ah7 ,such is their virtue that they would rather possess scant means painlessly than wield an empire won by war4 ,in spite of hunger and thirst they will share their meat and drink without a pang4 ,not bloom of lusty youth1 nor love's delights can warp their self-control2 nor will they be tempted to cause pain where pain should be unknown4 ,it is theirs not merely to eschew all greed of riches1 not merely to make a just and lawful distribution of wealth1 but to supply what is lacking to the needs of one another4 ,theirs it is to compose strife and discord not in painless oblivion simply1 but to the general advantage4 ,theirs also to hinder such extravagance of anger as shall entail remorse hereafter4 ,and as to envy they will make a clean sweep and clearance of it3 the good things which a man possesses shall be also the property of his friends1 and the goods which they possess are to be looked upon as his4 ,where then is the improbability that the beautiful and noble should be sharers in the honours 7#ai7 of the state not only without injury1 but even to their mutual advantage8 7#ah7 ,or1 as we say1 the elite of human kind4 7#ai7 ,and the offices4 ,they indeed who covet and desire the honours and offices in a state for the sake of the liberty thereby given them to embezzle the public moneys1 to deal violently by their fellow-creatures1 and to batten in luxury themselves1 may well be regarded as unjust and villainous persons incapable of harmony with one another4 ,but if a man desire to obtain these selfsame honours in order that1 being himself secure against wrong-doing1 he may be able to assist his friends in what is right1 and1 raised to a high position1 7#bj7 may essay to confer some blessing on the land of his fathers1 what is there to hinder him from working in harmony with some other of a like spirit8 ,will he1 with the beautiful and noble at his side1 be less able to aid his friends8 or will his power to benefit the community be shortened because the flower of that community are fellow-workers in that work8 ,why1 even in the contests of the games it is obvious that if it were possible for the stoutest combatants to combine against the weakest1 the chosen band would come off victors in every bout1 and would carry off all the prizes4 ,this indeed is against the rules of the actual arena2 but in the field of politics1 where the beautiful and good hold empery1 and there is nought to hinder any from combining with whomsoever a man may choose to benefit the state1 it will be a clear gain1 will it not1 for any one engaged in state affairs to make the best men his friends1 whereby he will find partners and co-operators in his aims instead of rivals and antagonists8 ,and this at least is obvious3 in case of foreign war a man will need allies1 but all the more if in the ranks opposed to him should stand the flower of the enemy4 7#ba7 ,moreover1 those who are willing to fight your battles must be kindly dealt with1 that goodwill may quicken to enthusiasm2 and one good man 7#bb7 is better worth your benefiting that a dozen knaves1 since a little kindness goes a long way with the good1 but with the base the more you give them the more they ask for4 7#bj7 ,as archon1 or raised to rule4 7#ba7 ,lit4 the beautiful and good4 7#bb7 ,or1 the best1 though few1 are better worth your benefiting than the many base4 ,so keep a good heart1 ,critobulus2 only try to become good yourself1 and when you have attained1 set to your hand to capture the beautiful and good4 ,perhaps ,i may be able to give you some help in this quest1 being myself an adept in ,love's lore4 7#bc7 ,no matter who it is for whom my heart is aflame2 in an instant my whole soul is eager to leap forth4 ,with vehemence ,i speed to the mark4 ,i1 who love1 demand to be loved again2 this desire in me must be met by counter desire in him2 this thirst for his society by thirst reciprocal for mine4 ,and these will be your needs also1 ,i foresee1 whenever you are seized with longing to contract a friendship4 ,do not hide from me1 therefore1 whom you would choose as a friend1 since1 owing to the pains ,i take to please him who pleases me1 ,i am not altogether unversed1 ,i fancy1 in the art of catching men4 7#bd7 7#bc7 ,an authority in matters of love4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,symp4 #agg ,d2 ,xen4 ,symp4 viii4 #b4 7#bd7 ,see below1 ,,iii4 xi4 #g2 cf4 ,plat4 ,soph4 #bbb2 ,n4 ,t4 ,matt4 iv4 #ai1 alieis anthropon4 ,critobulus replied3 ,why1 these are the very lessons of instruction1 ,socrates1 for which ,i have been long athirst1 and the more particularly if this same love's lore will enable me to capture those who are good of soul and those who are beautiful of person4 ,soc4 ,nay1 now ,i warn you1 ,critobulus1 it is not within the province of my science to make the beautiful endure him who would lay hands upon them4 ,and that is why men fled from ,scylla1 ,i am persuaded1 because she laid hands upon them2 but the ,sirens were different--they laid hands on nobody1 but sat afar off and chanted their spells in the ears of all2 and therefore1 it is said1 all men endured to listen1 and were charmed4 ,cri4 ,i promise ,i will not lay violent hands on any2 therefore1 if you have any good device for winning friends1 instruct your pupil4 ,soc4 ,and if there is to be no laying on of the hands1 there must be no application either of the lips2 is it agreed8 ,cri4 ,no1 nor application of the lips to any one--not beautiful4 ,soc4 ,see now6 you cannot open your mouth without some luckless utterance4 ,beauty suffers no such liberty1 however eagerly the ugly may invite it1 making believe some quality of soul must rank them with the beautiful4 ,cri4 ,be of good cheer then2 let the compact stand thus3 ,kisses for the beautiful1 and for the good a rain of kisses4 ,so now teach us the art of catching friends4 ,soc4 ,well then1 when you wish to win some one's affection1 you will allow me to lodge information against you to the effect that you admire him and desire to be his friend8 ,cri4 ,lodge the indictment1 with all my heart4 ,i never heard of any one who hated his admirers4 ,soc4 ,and if ,i add to the indictment the further charge that through your admiration you are kindly disposed towards him1 you will not feel ,i am taking away your character8 ,cri4 ,why1 no2 for myself ,i know a kindly feeling springs up in my heart towards any one whom ,i conceive to be kindly disposed to me4 ,soc4 ,all this ,i shall feel empowered to say about you to those whose friendship you seek1 and ,i can promise further help2 only there is a comprehensive if to be considered3 if you will further authorise me to say that you are devoted to your friends2 that nothing gives you so much joy as a good friend2 that you pride yourself no less on the fine deeds of those you love than on your own2 and on their good things equally with your own2 that you never weary of plotting and planning to procure them a rich harvest of the same2 and lastly1 that you have discovered a man's virtue is to excel his friends in kindness and his foes in hostility4 ,if ,i am authorised thus to report of you1 ,i think you will find me a serviceable fellow-hunter in the quest of friends1 which is the conquest of the good4 ,cri4 ,why this appeal to me8--as if you had not free permission to say exactly what you like about me4 ,soc4 ,no2 that ,i deny1 on the authority of ,aspasia4 7#be7 ,i have it from her own lips4 ,good matchmakers1 she said tome1 were clever hands at cementing alliances between people1 provided the good qualities they vouched for were truthfully reported2 but when it came to their telling lies1 for her part she could not compliment them4 7#bf7 ,their poor deluded dupes ended by hating each other and the go-betweens as well4 ,now ,i myself am so fully persuaded of the truth of this that ,i feel it is not in my power to say aught in your praise which ,i cannot say with truth4 7#be7 ,aspasia1 daughter of ,axiochus1 of ,miletus4 ,see ,econ4 iii4 #ad2 ,plat4 ,menex4 #bce ,e2 ,aesch4 ,socrat4 ap4 ,cic4 de ,invent4 ,i4 xxxi4 #ea4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 vi4 #acb foll42 ,cobet1 ,pros4 ,xen4 7#bf7 ,reading ouk ethelein epainein1 or if ouk ophelein epainousas with ,kuhner transl4 ,good matchmakers1 she told me1 have to consult truth when reporting favourably of any one3 then indeed they are terribly clever at bringing people together3 whereas false flatterers do no good2 their dupes1 etc4 ,cri4 ,really1 ,socrates1 you are a wonderfully good friend to me--in so far as ,i have any merit which will entitle me to win a friend1 you will lend me a helping hand1 it seems2 otherwise you would rather not forge any petty fiction for my benefit4 ,soc4 ,but tell me1 how shall ,i assist you best1 think you8 ,by praising you falsely or by persuading you to try to be a good man8 ,or if it is not plain to you thus1 look at the matter by the light of some examples4 ,i wish to introduce you to a shipowner1 or to make him your friend3 ,i begin by singing your praises to him falsely thus1 ,you will find him a good pilot2 he catches at the phrase1 and entrusts his ship to you1 who have no notion of guiding a vessel4 ,what can you expect but to make shipwreck of the craft and yourself together8 or suppose by similar false assertions ,i can persuade the state at large to entrust her destinies to you--a man with a fine genius for command1 ,i say1 a practised lawyer1 a politician born1 and so forth4 ,the odds are1 the state and you may come to grief through you4 ,or to take an instance from everyday life4 ,by my falsehoods ,i persuade some private person to entrust his affairs to you as a really careful and business-like person with a head for economy4 ,when put to the test would not your administration prove ruinous1 and the figure you cut ridiculous8 ,no1 my dear friend1 there is but one road1 the shortest1 safest1 best1 and it is simply this3 ,in whatsoever you desire to be deemed good1 endeavour to be good4 ,for of all the virtues namable among men1 consider1 and you will find there is not one but may be increased by learning and practice4 ,for my part then1 ,critobulus1 these are the principles on which we ought to go a-hunting2 but if you take a different view1 ,i am all attention1 please instruct me4 ,then ,critobulus3 ,nay1 ,socrates1 ,i should be ashamed to gainsay what you have said2 if ,i did1 it would neither be a noble statement nor a true4 7#bg7 7#bg7 kala444 alethe4 ,,vii ,he had two ways of dealing with the difficulties of his friends3 where ignorance was the cause1 he tried to meet the trouble by a dose of common sense2 or where want and poverty were to blame1 by lessoning them that they should assist one another according to their ability2 and here ,i may mention certain incidents which occurred within my own knowledge4 ,how1 for instance1 he chanced upon ,aristarchus wearing the look of one who suffered from a fit of the sullens1 and thus accosted him4 ,soc4 ,you seem to have some trouble on your mind1 ,aristarchus2 if so1 you should share it with your friends4 ,perhaps together we might lighten the weight of it a little4 ,aristarchus answered3 ,yes1 ,socrates1 ,i am in sore straits indeed4 ,ever since the party strife declared itself in the city1 7#a7 what with the rush of people to ,piraeus1 and the wholesale banishments1 ,i have been fairly at the mercy of my poor deserted female relatives4 ,sisters1 nieces1 cousins1 they have all come flocking to me for protection4 ,i have fourteen free-born souls1 ,i tell you1 under my single roof1 and how are we to live8 ,we can get nothing out of the soil--that is in the hands of the enemy2 nothing from my house property1 for there is scarcely a living soul left in the city2 my furniture8 no one will buy it2 money8 there is none to be borrowed--you would have a better chance to find it by looking for it on the road than to borrow it from a banker4 ,yes1 ,socrates1 to stand by and see one's relatives die of hunger is hard indeed1 and yet to feed so many at such a pinch impossible4 7#a7 i4e4 circa #djd-djc ,b4,c4 ,see ,hell4 ,,ii4 iv4 ,after he listened to the story1 ,socrates asked3 ,how comes it that ,ceramon1 7#b7 with so many mouths to feed1 not only contrives to furnish himself and them with the necessaries of life1 but to realise a handsome surplus1 whilst you being in like plight 7#c7 are afraid you will one and all perish of starvation for want of the necessaries of life8 7#b7 ,an employer of labour1 apparently1 on a grand scale4 7#c7 ,lit4 with your large family to feed4 ,l4 ,dindorf would like to read su de oligous1 you with your small family4 ,ar4 ,why1 bless your soul1 do you not see he has only slaves and ,i have free-born souls to feed8 ,soc4 ,and which should you say were the better human beings1 the free-born members of your household or ,ceramon's slaves8 ,ar4 ,the free souls under my roof without a doubt4 ,soc4 ,is it not a shame1 then1 that he with his baser folk to back him should be in easy circumstances1 while you and your far superior household are in difficulties8 ,ar4 ,to be sure it is1 when he has only a set of handicraftsmen to feed1 and ,i my liberally-educated household4 ,soc4 ,what is a handicraftsman8 ,does not the term apply to all who can make any sort of useful product or commodity8 ,ar4 ,certainly4 ,soc4 ,barley meal is a useful product1 is it not8 ,ar4 ,pre-eminently so4 ,soc4 ,and loaves of bread8 ,ar4 ,no less4 ,soc4 ,well1 and what do you say to cloaks for men and for women--tunics1 mantles1 vests8 7#d7 7#d7 ,for these articles of dress see ,becker's ,charicles1 ,exc4 i4 to ,sc4 xi4 ,dress4 ,ar4 ,yes1 they are all highly useful commodities4 ,soc4 ,then your household do not know how to make any of these8 ,ar4 ,on the contrary1 ,i believe they can make them all4 ,soc4 ,then you are not aware that by means of the manufacture of one of these alone--his barley meal store--,nausicydes 7#e7 not only maintains himself and his domestics1 but many pigs and cattle besides1 and realises such large profits that he frequently contributes to the state benevolences2 7#f7 while there is ,cyrebus1 again1 who1 out of a bread factory1 more than maintains the whole of his establishment1 and lives in the lap of luxury2 and ,demeas of ,collytus gets a livelihood out of a cloak business1 and ,menon as a mantua-maker1 and so1 again1 more than half the ,megarians 7#g7 by the making of vests4 7#e7 ,nausicydes4 ,cobet1 ,pros4 ,xen4 cf4 ,aristoph4 ,eccles4 #dbf4 7#f7 ,lit4 state liturgies1 or to the burden of the public services4 ,for these see ,gow1 ,companion1 xviii4 ,athenian ,finance4 7#g7 ,cf4 ,arist4 ,acharnians1 #eai1 esukophantei ,megareon ta khlaniskia4 ,see ,dr4 ,merry's note ad loc4 ,ar4 ,bless me1 yes6 ,they have got a set of barbarian fellows1 whom they purchase and keep1 to manufacture by forced labour whatever takes their fancy4 ,my kinswomen1 ,i need not tell you1 are free-born ladies4 ,soc4 ,then1 on the ground that they are free-born and your kinswomen1 you think that they ought to do nothing but eat and sleep8 ,or is it your opinion that people who live in this way--,i speak of free-born people in general--lead happier lives1 and are more to be congratulated1 than those who give their time and attention to such useful arts of life as they are skilled in8 ,is this what you see in the world1 that for the purpose of learning what it is well to know1 and of recollecting the lessons taught1 or with a view to health and strength of body1 or for the sake of acquiring and preserving all that gives life its charm1 idleness and inattention are found to be helpful1 whilst work and study are simply a dead loss8 ,pray1 when those relatives of yours were taught what you tell me they know1 did they learn it as barren information which they would never turn to practical account1 or1 on the contrary1 as something with which they were to be seriously concerned some day1 and from which they were to reap advantage8 ,do human beings in general attain to well-tempered manhood by a course of idling1 or by carefully attending to what will be of use8 ,which will help a man the more to grow in justice and uprightness1 to be up and doing1 or to sit with folded hands revolving the ways and means of existence8 ,as things now stand1 if ,i am not mistaken1 there is no love lost between you4 ,you cannot help feeling that they are costly to you1 and they must see that you find them a burthen8 ,this is a perilous state of affairs1 in which hatred and bitterness have every prospect of increasing1 whilst the pre-existing bond of affection 7#h7 is likely to be snapped4 7#h7 ,or1 the original stock of kindliness will be used up4 ,but now1 if only you allow them free scope for their energies1 when you come to see how useful they can be1 you will grow quite fond of them1 and they1 when they perceive that they can please you1 will cling to their benefactor warmly4 ,thus1 with the memory of former kindnesses made sweeter1 you will increase the grace which flows from kindnesses tenfold2 you will in consequence be knit in closer bonds of love and domesticity4 ,if1 indeed1 they were called upon to do any shameful work1 let them choose death rather than that2 but now they know1 it would seem1 the very arts and accomplishments which are regarded as the loveliest and the most suitable for women2 and the things which we know1 any of us1 are just those which we can best perform1 that is to say1 with ease and expedition2 it is a joy to do them1 and the result is beautiful4 7#i7 ,do not hesitate1 then1 to initiate your friends in what will bring advantage to them and you alike2 probably they will gladly respond to your summons4 7#i7 ,or1 with ease1 rapidity1 pleasure and effect4 ,well1 upon my word 7,aristarchus answered71 ,i like so well what you say1 ,socrates1 that though hitherto ,i have not been disposed to borrow1 knowing that when ,i had spent what ,i got ,i should not be in a condition to repay1 ,i think ,i can now bring myself to do so in order to raise a fund for these works4 ,thereupon a capital was provided2 wools were purchased2 the good man's relatives set to work1 and even whilst they breakfasted they worked1 and on and on till work was ended and they supped4 ,smiles took the place of frowns2 they no longer looked askance with suspicion1 but full into each other's eyes with happiness4 ,they loved their kinsman for his kindness to them4 ,he became attached to them as helpmates2 and the end of it all was1 he came to ,socrates and told him with delight how matters fared2 and now1 he added1 they tax me with being the only drone in the house1 who sit and eat the bread of idleness4 ,to which ,socrates3 ,why do not you tell them the fable of the dog8 7#aj7 ,once on a time1 so goes the story1 when beasts could speak1 the sheep said to her master1 ,what a marvel is this1 master1 that to us1 your own sheep1 who provide you with fleeces and lambs and cheese1 you give nothing1 save only what we may nibble off earth's bosom2 but with this dog of yours1 who provides you with nothing of the sort1 you share the very meat out of your mouth4 ,when the dog heard these words1 he answered promptly1 ,ay1 in good sooth1 for is it not ,i who keep you safe and sound1 you sheep1 so that you are not stolen by man nor harried by wolves2 since1 if ,i did not keep watch over you1 you would not be able so much as to graze afield1 fearing to be destroyed4 ,and so1 says the tale1 the sheep had to admit that the dog was rightly preferred to themselves in honour4 ,and so do you tell your flock yonder that like the dog in the fable you are their guardian and overseer1 and it is thanks to you that they are protected from evil and evildoers1 so that they work their work and live their lives in blissful security4 7#aj7 ,see ,joseph ,jacobs1 ,the ,fables of ,aesop1 vol4 i4 p4 #bf foll41 for a complete list of the ,fables given in ,greek literature up to the fall of ,greek independence4 ,cf4 ,hesiod1 ,works and ,days1 #bjb foll42 ,archilochus1 #hi 7#fj71 ,bergk2 ,herod4 i4 #ada2 ,aesch4 ,myrmid4 fr4 #abc2 ,aristot4 ,rhet4 ,,ii4 xx4 ,,viii ,at another time chancing upon an old friend whom he had not seen for a long while1 he greeted him thus4 ,soc4 ,what quarter of the world do you hail from1 ,eutherus8 ,the other answered3 ,from abroad1 just before the close of the war2 but at present from the city itself4 7#a7 ,you see1 since we have been denuded of our possessions across the frontier1 7#b7 and my father left me nothing in ,attica1 ,i must needs bide at home1 and provide myself with the necessaries of life by means of bodily toil1 which seems preferable to begging from another1 especially as ,i have no security on which to raise a loan4 7#a7 ,lit4 from here4 ,the conversation perhaps takes place in ,piraeus #djd ,b4,c4 7#b7 ,or1 colonial possession4 ,cf4 ,symp4 iv4 #ca4 ,soc4 ,and how long do you expect your body to be equal to providing the necessaries of life for hire8 ,euth4 ,goodness knows1 ,socrates--not for long4 ,soc4 ,and when you find yourself an old man1 expenses will not diminish1 and yet no one will care to pay you for the labour of your hands4 ,euth4 ,that is true4 ,soc4 ,would it not be better then to apply yourself at once to such work as will stand you in good stead when you are old--that is1 address yourself to some large proprietor who needs an assistant in managing his estate8 7#c7 ,by superintending his works1 helping to get in his crops1 and guarding his property in general1 you will be a benefit to the estate and be benefited in return4 7#c7 ,cf4 ,cyrop4 ,,viii4 iii4 #dh4 ,i could not endure the yoke of slavery1 ,socrates6 7he exclaimed74 ,soc4 ,and yet the heads of departments in a state are not regarded as adopting the badge of slavery because they manage the public property1 but as having attained a higher degree of freedom rather4 ,euth4 ,in a word1 ,socrates1 the idea of being held to account to another is not at all to my taste4 ,soc4 ,and yet1 ,eutherus1 it would be hard to find a work which did not involve some liability to account2 in fact it is difficult to do anything without some mistake or other1 and no less difficult1 if you should succeed in doing it immaculately1 to escape all unfriendly criticism4 ,i wonder now whether you find it easy to get through your present occupations entirely without reproach4 ,no8 ,let me tell you what you should do4 ,you should avoid censorious persons and attach yourself to the considerate and kind-hearted1 and in all your affairs accept with a good grace what you can and decline what you feel you cannot do4 ,whatever it be1 do it heart and soul1 and make it your finest work4 7#d7 ,there lies the method at once to silence fault-finders and to minister help to your own difficulties4 ,life will flow smoothly1 risks will be diminished1 provision against old age secured4 7#d7 ,or1 study to make it your finest work1 the expression of a real enthusiasm4 ,,ix ,at another time1 as ,i am aware1 he had heard a remark made by ,crito 7#a7 that life at ,athens was no easy matter for a man who wished to mind his own affairs4 7#a7 ,crito4 ,see above1 ,i4 ii4 #dh2 ,cobet1 ,p4 ,x42 cf4 ,plat4 ,rep4 viii4 #edi ,c4 ,as1 for instance1 at this moment 7,crito proceeded7 there are a set of fellows threatening me with lawsuits1 not because they have any misdemeanour to allege against me1 but simply under the conviction that ,i will sooner pay a sum of money than be troubled further4 ,to which ,socrates replied3 ,tell me1 ,crito1 you keep dogs1 do you not1 to ward off wolves from your flocks8 ,cr4 ,certainly2 it pays to do so4 ,soc4 ,then why do you not keep a watchman willing and competent to ward off this pack of people who seek to injure you8 ,i should not at all mind 7he answered71 if ,i were not afraid he might turn again and rend his keeper4 ,what6 7rejoined ,socrates71 do you not see that to gratify a man like yourself is far pleasanter as a matter of self-interest than to quarrel with you8 ,you may be sure there are plenty of people here who will take the greatest pride in making you their friend4 ,accordingly1 they sought out ,archedemus1 7#b7 a practical man with a clever tongue in his head 7#c7 but poor2 the fact being1 he was not the sort to make gain by hook or by crook1 but a lover of honesty and of too good a nature himself to make his living as a pettifogger4 7#d7 ,crito would then take the opportunity of times of harvesting and put aside small presents for ,achedemus of corn and oil1 or wine1 or wool1 or any other of the farm produce forming the staple commodities of life1 or he would invite him to a sacrificial feast1 and otherwise pay him marked attention4 ,archedemus1 feeling that he had in ,crito's house a harbour of refuge1 could not make too much of his patron1 and ere long he had hunted up a long list of iniquities which could be lodged against ,crito's pettifogging persecutors themselves1 and not only their numerous crimes but their numerous enemies2 and presently he prosecuted one of them in a public suit1 where sentence would be given against him what to suffer or what to pay4 7#e7 ,the accused1 conscious as he was of many rascally deeds1 did all he could to be quit of ,archedemus1 but ,archedemus was not to be got rid of4 ,he held on until he had made the informer not only loose his hold of ,crito but pay himself a sum of money2 and now that ,archedemus had achieved this and other similar victories1 it is easy to guess what followed4 7#f7 ,it was just as when some shepherd has got a very good dog1 all the other shepherds wish to lodge their flocks in his neighbourhood that they too may reap the benefit of him4 ,so a number of ,crito's friends came begging him to allow ,archedemus to be their guardian also1 and ,archedemus was overjoyed to do something to gratify ,crito1 and so it came about that not only ,crito abode in peace1 but his friends likewise4 ,if any of those people with whom ,archedemus was not on the best of terms were disposed to throw it in his teeth that he accepted his patron's benefits and paid in flatteries1 he had a ready retort3 ,answer me this question--which is the more scandalous1 to accept kindnesses from honest folk and to repay them1 with the result that ,i make such people my friends but quarrel with knaves1 or to make enemies of honourable gentlemen 7#g7 by attempts to do them wrong1 with the off-chance indeed of winning the friendship of some scamps in return for my co-operation1 but the certainty of losing in the tone of my acquaintances8 7#h7 7#b7 ,archedemus1 possibly the demagogue1 ,hell4 ,i4 vii4 #b4 ,so ,cobet1 ,p4 ,x41 but see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #bde4 7#c7 ,lit4 very capable of speech and action--the writer's favourite formula for the well-trained ,athenian who can speak fluently and reason clearly1 and act energetically and opportunely4 7#d7 ,reading kai euphuesteros on 7or e os7444 apo sukophanton 7or sukophantion71 after ,cobet1 ,p4 ,x4 s4v4 ,archedemus4 ,the ,,mss4 give kai ephe raston einai--nothing is easier1 he said1 than recovering from sycophants4 7#e7 ,for this formula cf4 ,econ4 vi4 #bd4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,statesm4 #bii ,a4 7#f7 ede tote4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 vi4 #ggh ,c4 7#g7 ,lit4 the kaloi kagathoi1 which like khrestous and ponerous has a political as well as an ethical meaning4 7#h7 ,lit4 must associate with these 7the ponerois7 instead of those 7the kalois te kagathois74 ,the net result of the whole proceedings was that ,archedemus was now ,crito's right hand1 7#i7 and by the rest of ,crito's friends he was held in honour4 7#i7 ,he was ,no4 #a--;eis4 ,x ,again ,i may cite1 as known to myself1 7#a7 the following discussion2 the arguments were addressed to ,diodorus1 one of his companions4 ,the master said3 7#a7 ,or1 for which ,i can personally vouch4 ,tell me1 ,diodorus1 if one of your slaves runs away1 are you at pains to recover him8 ,more than that 7,diodorus answered71 ,i summon others to my aid and ,i have a reward cried for his recovery4 ,soc4 ,well1 if one of your domestics is sick1 do you tend him and call in the doctors to save his life8 ,diod4 ,decidedly ,i do4 ,soc4 ,and if an intimate acquaintance who is far more precious to you than any of your household slaves is about to perish of want1 you would think it incumbent on you to take pains to save his life8 ,well6 now you know without my telling you that ,hermogenes 7#b7 is not made of wood or stone4 ,if you helped him he would be ashamed not to pay you in kind4 ,and yet--the opportunity of possessing a willing1 kindly1 and trusty assistant well fitted to do your bidding1 and not merely that1 but capable of originating useful ideas himself1 with a certain forecast of mind and judgment--,i say such a man is worth dozens of slaves4 ,good economists tell us that when a precious article may be got at a low price we ought to buy4 ,and nowadays when times are so bad it is possible to get good friends exceedingly cheap4 7#b7 ,hermogenes1 presumably the son of ,hipponicus4 ,see ,i4 ii4 #dh4 ,diodorus answered3 ,you are quite right1 ,socrates2 bid ,hermogenes come to me4 ,soc4 ,bid ,hermogenes come to you6--not ,i indeed6 since for aught ,i can understand you are no better entitled to summon him that to go to him yourself1 nor is the advantage more on his side than your own4 ,thus ,diodorus went off in a trice to seek ,hermogenes1 and at no great outlay won to himself a friend--a friend whose one concern it now was to discover how1 by word or deed1 he might help and gladden ,diodorus4 ,,book ,,iii ,i ,aspirants to honour and distinction 7#a7 derived similar help from ,socrates1 who in each case stimulated in them a persevering assiduity towards their several aims1 as the following narratives tend to show4 ,he had heard on one occasion of the arrival in ,athens of ,dionysodorus1 7#b7 who professed to teach the whole duty of a general4 7#c7 ,accordingly he remarked to one of those who were with him--a young man whose anxiety to obtain the office of ,strategos 7#d7 was no secret to him3 7#a7 ton kalon everything which the kalos te kagathos should aim at1 but especially the honourable offices of state such as the ,archonship1 ,strategia1 ,hipparchia1 etc4 ,see ,plat4 ,laches4 7#b7 ,dionysodorus of ,chios1 presumably4 ,see ,plat4 ,euthyd4 #bga ,c foll4 7#c7 ,a professor of the science and art of strategy4 7#d7 ,lit4 that honour1 sc4 the ,strategia4 ,soc4 ,it would be monstrous on the part of any one who sought to become a general 7#e7 to throw away the slightest opportunity of learning the duties of the office4 ,such a person1 ,i should say1 would deserve to be fined and punished by the state far more than the charlatan who without having learnt the art of a sculptor undertakes a contract to carve a statue4 ,considering that the whole fortunes of the state are entrusted to the general during a war1 with all its incidental peril1 it is only reasonable to anticipate that great blessings or great misfortunes will result in proportion to the success or bungling of that officer4 ,i appeal to you1 young sir1 do you not agree that a candidate who1 while taking pains to be elected neglects to learn the duties of the office1 would richly deserve to be fined8 7#e7 i4e4 head of the war department1 and commander-in-chief1 etc4 ,with arguments like these he persuaded the young man to go and take lessons4 ,after he had gone through the course he came back1 and ,socrates proceeded playfully to banter him4 ,soc4 ,behold our young friend1 sirs1 as ,homer says of ,agamemnon1 of mein majestical1 7#f7 so he2 does he not seem to move more majestically1 like one who has studied to be a general8 ,of course1 just as a man who has learned to play the harp is a harper1 even if he never touch the instrument1 or as one who has studied medicine is a physician1 though he does not practise1 so our friend here from this time forward is now and ever shall be a general1 even though he does not receive a vote at the elections4 ,but the dunce who has not the science is neither general nor doctor1 no1 not even if the whole world appointed him4 ,but 7he proceeded1 turning to the youth71 in case any of us should ever find ourselves captain or colonel 7#g7 under you1 to give us some smattering of the science of war1 what did the professor take as the starting-point of his instruction in generalship8 ,please inform us4 7#f7 ,il4 iii4 #afi1 #agj4 7#g7 ,or1 brigadier or captain1 lit4 taxiarch or lochagos4 ,then the young man3 ,he began where he ended2 he taught me tactics 7#h7--tactics and nothing else4 7#h7 ,cf4 ,cyrop4 ,i4 vi4 #ab foll42 ,,viii4 v4 #ae4 ,yet surely 7replied ,socrates7 that is only an infinitesimal part of generalship4 ,a general 7#i7 must be ready in furnishing the material of war3 in providing the commissariat for his troops2 quick in devices1 he must be full of practical resource2 nothing must escape his eye or tax his endurance2 he must be shrewd1 and ready of wit1 a combination at once of clemency and fierceness1 of simplicity and of insidious craft2 he must play the part of watchman1 of robber2 now prodigal as a spendthrift1 and again close-fisted as a miser1 the bounty of his munificence must be equalled by the narrowness of his greed2 impregnable in defence1 a very dare-devil in attack--these and many other qualities must he possess who is to make a good general and minister of war2 they must come to him by gift of nature or through science4 ,no doubt it is a grand thing also to be a tactician1 since there is all the difference in the world between an army properly handled in the field and the same in disorder2 just as stones and bricks1 woodwork and tiles1 tumbled together in a heap are of no use at all1 but arrange them in a certain order--at bottom and atop materials which will not crumble or rot1 such as stones and earthen tiles1 and in the middle between the two put bricks and woodwork1 with an eye to architectural principle1 7#aj7 and finally you get a valuable possession--to wit1 a dwelling-place4 7#i7 ,a strategos4 ,for the duties and spheres of action of this officer1 see ,gow1 op4 cit4 xiv4 #eh4 7#aj7 ,as in the building of a house4 ,see ,vitrivius1 ii4 #c2 ,plin4 xxv4 #ad4 ,the simile is very apt1 ,socrates 7#aa7 7replied the youth71 for in battle1 too1 the rule is to draw up the best men in front and rear1 with those of inferior quality between1 where they may be led on by the former and pushed on by the hinder4 7#aa7 ,cf4 ,il4 iv4 #big foll42 ,cyrop4 ,,vi4 iii4 #be2 ,polyb4 x4 #bb4 ,soc4 ,very good1 no doubt1 if the professor taught you to distinguish good and bad2 but if not1 where is the use of your learning8 ,it would scarcely help you1 would it1 to be told to arrange coins in piles1 the best coins at top and bottom and the worst in the middle1 unless you were first taught to distinguish real from counterfeit4 ,the ,youth4 ,well no1 upon my word1 he did not teach us that1 so that the task of distinguishing between good and bad must devolve on ourselves4 ,soc4 ,well1 shall we see1 then1 how we may best avoid making blunders between them8 ,i am ready 7replied the youth74 ,soc4 ,well then6 ,let us suppose we are marauders1 and the task imposed upon us is to carry off some bullion2 it will be a right disposition of our forces if we place in the vanguard those who are the greediest of gain8 7#ab7 7#ab7 ,whose fingers itch for gold4 ,the ,youth4 ,i should think so4 ,soc4 ,then what if there is danger to be faced8 ,shall the vanguard consist of men who are greediest of honour8 ,the ,youth4 ,it is these1 at any rate1 who will face danger for the sake of praise and glory4 7#ac7 ,fortunately such people are not hid away in a corner2 they shine forth conspicuous everywhere1 and are easy to be discovered4 7#ac7 ,cf4 ,shakesp4 seeking the bubble reputation even in the cannon's mouth4 ,soc4 ,but tell me1 did he teach you how to draw up troops in general1 or specifically where and how to apply each particular kind of tactical arrangement8 ,the ,youth4 ,nothing of the sort4 ,soc4 ,and yet there are and must be innumerable circumstances in which the same ordering of march or battle will be out of place4 ,the ,youth4 ,i assure you he did not draw any of these fine distinctions4 ,he did not1 did not he8 7he answered74 ,bless me6 ,go back to him again1 then1 and ply him with questions2 if he really has the science1 and is not lost to all sense of shame1 he will blush to have taken your money and then to have sent you away empty4 ,,ii ,at another time he fell in with a man who had been chosen general and minister of war1 and thus accosted him4 ,soc4 ,why did ,homer1 think you1 designate ,agamemnon shepherd of the peoples8 7#a7 ,was it possibly to show that1 even as a shepherd must care for his sheep and see that they are safe and have all things needful1 and that the objects of their rearing be secured1 so also must a general take care that his soldiers are safe and have their supplies1 and attain the objects of their soldiering8 ,which last is that they may get the mastery of their enemies1 and so add to their own good fortune and happiness2 or tell me1 what made him praise ,agamemnon1 saying-- ,he is both a good king and a warrior bold8 7#b7 ,did he mean1 perhaps1 to imply that he would be a 'warrior bold1' not merely in standing alone and bravely battling against the foe1 but as inspiring the whole of his host with like prowess2 and by a 'good king1' not merely one who should stand forth gallantly to protect his own life1 but who should be the source of happiness to all over whom he reigns8 ,since a man is not chosen king in order to take heed to himself1 albeit nobly1 but that those who chose him may attain to happiness through him4 ,and why do men go soldiering except to ameliorate existence8 7#c7 and to this end they choose their generals that they may find in them guides to the goal in question4 ,he1 then1 who undertakes that office is bound to procure for those who choose him the thing they seek for4 ,and indeed it were not easy to find any nobler ambition than this1 or aught ignobler than its opposite4 7#a7 ,il4 ii4 #bdc4 ,the ,people's ,paster1 ,chapman4 7#b7 ,il4 iii4 #agi2 cf4 ,symp4 iv4 #f4 ,a favourite line of ,alexander the ,great's1 it is said4 7#c7 ,of1 that life may reach some flower of happiness4 ,after such sort he handled the question1 what is the virtue of a good leader8 and by shredding off all superficial qualities1 laid bare as the kernel of the matter that it is the function of every leader to make those happy whom he may be called upon to lead4 7#d7 7#d7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,rep4 #cdb4 ,,iii ,the following conversation with a youth who had just been elected hipparch 7#a7 7or commandant of cavalry71 ,i can also vouch for4 7#b7 7#a7 ,cf4 ,hipparch4 7#b7 ,lit4 ,i know he once held4 ,soc4 ,can you tell us what set you wishing to be a general of cavalry1 young sir8 ,what was your object8 ,i suppose it was not simply to ride at the head of the knights1 an honour not denied to the mounted archers1 7#c7 who ride even in front of the generals themselves8 7#c7 ,lit4 ,hippotoxotai4 ,see ,boeckh1 ,p4 ,e4 ,a4 ,,ii4 xxi4 p4 #bfd 7,eng4 tr47 ,hipp4 ,you are right4 ,soc4 ,no more was it for the sake merely of public notoriety1 since a madman might boast of that fatal distinction4 7#d7 7#d7 ,or1 as we all know1 ',tom ,fool' can boast1 etc4 ,hipp4 ,you are right again4 ,soc4 ,is this possibly the explanation8 you think to improve the cavalry--your aim would be to hand it over to the state in better condition than you find it2 and1 if the cavalry chanced to be called out1 you at their head would be the cause of some good thing to ,athens8 ,hipp4 ,most certainly4 ,soc4 ,well1 and a noble ambition too1 upon my word--if you can achieve your object4 ,the command to which you are appointed concerns horses and riders1 does it not8 ,hipp4 ,it does1 no doubt4 ,soc4 ,come then1 will you explain to us first how you propose to improve the horses4 ,hipp4 ,ah1 that will scarcely form part of my business1 ,i fancy4 ,each trooper is personally responsible for the condition of his horse4 ,soc4 ,but suppose1 when they present themselves and their horses1 7#e7 you find that some have brought beasts with bad feet or legs or otherwise infirm1 and others such ill-fed jades that they cannot keep up on the march2 others1 again1 brutes so ill broken and unmanageable that they will not keep their place in the ranks1 and others such desperate plungers that they cannot be got to any place in the ranks at all4 ,what becomes of your cavalry force then8 ,how will you charge at the head of such a troop1 and win glory for the state8 7#e7 ,for this phrase1 see ,schneider and ,kuhner ad loc4 ,hipp4 ,you are right4 ,i will try to look after the horses to my utmost4 ,soc4 ,well1 and will you not lay your hand to improve the men themselves8 ,hipp4 ,i will4 ,soc4 ,the first thing will be to make them expert in mounting their chargers8 ,hipp4 ,that certainly1 for if any of them were dismounted he would then have a better chance of saving himself4 ,soc4 ,well1 but when it comes to the hazard of engagement1 what will you do then8 ,give orders to draw the enemy down to the sandy ground 7#f7 where you are accustomed to manouvre1 or endeavour beforehand to put your men through their practice on ground resembling a real battlefield8 7#f7 e4g4 the hippodrome at ,phaleron4 ,hipp4 ,that would be better1 no doubt4 ,soc4 ,well1 shall you regard it as a part of your duty to see that as many of your men as possible can take aim and shoot on horseback8 7#g7 7#g7 ,cf4 ,hipparch1 i4 #ba4 ,hipp4 ,it will be better1 certainly4 ,soc4 ,and have you thought how to whet the courage of your troopers8 to kindle in them rage to meet the enemy8--which things are but stimulants to make stout hearts stouter8 ,hipp4 ,if ,i have not done so hitherto1 ,i will try to make up for lost time now4 ,soc4 ,and have you troubled your head at all to consider how you are to secure the obedience of your men8 for without that not one particle of good will you get1 for all your horses and troopers so brave and so stout4 ,hipp4 ,that is a true saying2 but how1 ,socrates1 should a man best bring them to this virtue8 7#h7 7#h7 protrepsasthai4 ,see above1 ,i4 ii4 #fd2 below1 ,,iv4 v4 #a4 ,soc4 ,i presume you know that in any business whatever1 people are more apt to follow the lead of those whom they look upon as adepts2 thus in case of sickness they are readiest to obey him whom they regard as the cleverest physician2 and so on a voyage the most skilful pilot2 in matters agricultural the best farmer1 and so forth4 ,hipp4 ,yes1 certainly4 ,soc4 ,then in this matter of cavalry also we may reasonably suppose that he who is looked upon as knowing his business best will command the readiest obedience4 ,hipp4 ,if1 then1 ,i can prove to my troopers that ,i am better than all of them1 will that suffice to win their obedience8 ,soc4 ,yes1 if along with that you can teach them that obedience to you brings greater glory and surer safety to themselves4 ,hipp4 ,how am ,i to teach them that8 ,soc4 ,upon my word6 ,how are you to teach them that8 ,far more easily1 ,i take it1 than if you had to teach them that bad things are better than good1 and more advantageous to boot4 ,hipp4 ,i suppose you mean that1 besides his other qualifications a commandant of cavalry must have command of speech and argument8 7#i7 7#i7 ,or1 practise the art of oratory2 express himself clearly and rationally4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 ,,viii4 lxvii4 p4 #dfc note2 ,hipparch1 i4 #bd2 viii4 #bb4 ,soc4 ,were you under the impression that the commandant was not to open his mouth8 ,did it never occur to you that all the noblest things which custom 7#aj7 compels us to learn1 and to which indeed we owe our knowledge of life1 have all been learned by means of speech 7#aa7 and reason2 and if there be any other noble learning which a man may learn1 it is this same reason whereby he learns it2 and the best teachers are those who have the freest command of thought and language1 and those that have the best knowledge of the most serious things are the most brilliant masters of disputation4 ,again1 have you not observed that whenever this city of ours fits out one of her choruses--such as that1 for instance1 which is sent to ,delos 7#ab7--there is nothing elsewhere from any quarter of the world which can compete with it2 nor will you find in any other state collected so fair a flower of manhood as in ,athens8 7#ac7 7#aj7 ,cf ,arist4 ,rhet4 ii4 #ab1 oi neoi pepaideuntai upo tou nomou monon4 7#aa7 dia logou4 7#ab7 ,see ,thuc4 iii4 #ajd2 and below1 ,,iv4 viii4 #b4 7#ac7 ,see references ap4 ,schneider and ,kuhner2 ,symp4 iv4 #ag4 ,hipp4 ,you say truly4 ,soc4 ,but for all that1 it is not in sweetness of voice that the ,athenians differ from the rest of the world so much1 nor in stature of body or strength of limb1 but in ambition and that love of honour 7#ad7 which most of all gives a keen edge to the spirit in the pursuit of things lovely and of high esteem4 7#ad7 ,see below1 v4 #c2 ,dem4 de ,cor4 #bh foll4 ,hipp4 ,that1 too1 is a true saying4 ,soc4 ,do you not think1 then1 that if a man devoted himself to our cavalry also1 here in ,athens1 we should far outstrip the rest of the world1 whether in the furnishing of arms and horses1 or in orderliness of battle-array1 or in eager hazardous encounter with the foe1 if only we could persuade ourselves that by so doing we should obtain honour and distinction8 ,hipp4 ,it is reasonable to think so4 ,soc4 ,have no hesitation1 therefore1 but try to guide your men into this path1 7#ae7 whence you yourself1 and through you your fellow-citizens1 will reap advantage4 7#ae7 ,or1 to conduct which will not certainly fail of profit to yourself or through you to444 ,yes1 in good sooth1 ,i will try 7he answered74 ,,iv ,at another time1 seeing ,nicomachides on his way back from the elections 7of magistrates71 7#a7 he asked him3 ,who are elected generals1 ,nicomachides8 7#a7 ,cf4 ,pol4 ,ath4 i4 #c2 ,aristot4 ,ath4 ,pol4 #dd4 #d2 and ,dr4 ,sandys' note ad loc4 p4 #afe of his edition4 ,and he3 ,is it not just like them1 these citizens of ,athens--just like them1 ,i say--to go and elect1 not me1 who ever since my name first appeared on the muster-roll have literally worn myself out with military service--now as a captain1 now as a colonel--and have received all these wounds from the enemy1 look you6 7at the same time1 and suiting the action to the word1 he bared his arms and proceeded to show the scars of ancient wounds7--they elect not me 7he went on71 but1 if you please1 ,antisthenes6 who never served as a hoplite 7#b7 in his life nor in the cavalry ever made a brilliant stroke1 that ,i ever heard tell of2 no6 in fact1 he has got no science at all1 ,i take it1 except to amass stores of wealth4 7#b7 ,cf4 ,lys4 xiv4 #aj4 ,but still 7returned ,socrates71 surely that is one point in his favour--he ought to be able to provide the troops with supplies4 ,nic4 ,well1 for the matter of that1 merchants are good hands at collecting stores2 but it does not follow that a merchant or trader will be able to command an army4 ,but 7rejoined ,socrates7 ,antisthenes is a man of great pertinacity1 who insists on winning1 and that is a very necessary quality in a general4 7#c7 ,do not you see how each time he has been choragos 7#d7 he has been successful with one chorus after another8 7#c7 ,see ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #dfe foll4 7#d7 ,choir-master1 or ,director of the ,chorus4 ,it was his duty to provide and preside over a chorus to sing1 dance1 or play at any of the public festivals1 defraying the cost as a state service of leitourgia4 ,see ,pol4 ,ath4 iii4 #d2 ,hiero1 ix4 #d2 ,aristot4 ,pol4 ,ath4 #bh4 #c4 ,nic4 ,bless me6 yes2 but there is a wide difference between standing at the head of a band of singers and dancers and a troop of soldiers4 ,soc4 ,still1 without any practical skill in singing or in the training of a chorus1 ,antisthenes somehow had the art to select the greatest proficients in both4 ,nic4 ,yes1 and by the same reasoning we are to infer that on a campaign he will find proficients1 some to marshal the troops for him and others to fight his battles8 ,soc4 ,just so4 ,if in matters military he only exhibits the same skill in selecting the best hands as he has shown in matters of the chorus1 it is highly probable he will here also bear away the palm of victory2 and we may presume that if he expended so much to win a choric victory with a single tribe1 7#e7 he will be ready to expend more to secure a victory in war with the whole state to back him4 7#e7 ,see ,dem4 against ,lept4 #dif4 #bf4 ,each tribe nominated such of its members as were qualified to undertake the burden4 ,nic4 ,do you really mean1 ,socrates1 that it is the function of the same man to provide efficient choruses and to act as commander-in-chief8 ,soc4 ,i mean this1 that1 given a man knows what he needs to provide1 and has the skill to do so1 no matter what the department of things may be--house or city or army--you will find him a good chief and director 7#f7 of the same4 7#f7 ,or1 representative4 ,then ,nicomachides3 ,upon my word1 ,socrates1 ,i should never have expected to hear you say that a good housekeeper 7#g7 and steward of an estate would make a good general4 7#g7 ,or1 economist2 cf4 ,cyrop4 ,i4 vi4 #ab4 ,soc4 ,come then1 suppose we examine their respective duties1 and so determine 7#h7 whether they are the same or different4 7#h7 ,lit4 get to know4 ,nic4 ,let us do so4 ,soc4 ,well then1 is it not a common duty of both to procure the ready obedience of those under them to their orders8 ,nic4 ,certainly4 ,soc4 ,and also to assign to those best qualified to perform them their distinctive tasks8 ,that1 too1 belongs to both alike 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,again1 to chastise the bad and reward the good belongs to both alike1 methinks8 ,nic4 ,decidedly4 ,soc4 ,and to win the kindly feeling of their subordinates must surely be the noble ambition of both8 ,that too 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and do you consider it to the interest of both alike to win the adherence of supporters and allies8 7#i7 7#i7 ,in reference to the necessity of building up a family connection or political alliances cf4 ,arist4 ,pol4 iii4 #i1 #ac4 ,nic4 ,without a doubt4 ,soc4 ,and does it not closely concern them both to be good guardians of their respective charges8 ,nic4 ,very much so4 ,soc4 ,then it equally concerns them both to be painstaking and prodigal of toil in all their doings8 ,nic4 ,yes1 all these duties belong to both alike1 but the parallel ends when you come to actual fighting4 ,soc4 ,yet they are both sure to meet with enemies8 ,nic4 ,there is no doubt about that4 ,soc4 ,then is it not to the interest of both to get the upper hand of these8 ,nic4 ,certainly2 but you omit to tell us what service organisation and the art of management will render when it comes to actual fighting4 ,soc4 ,why1 it is just then1 ,i presume1 it will be of most service1 for the good economist knows that nothing is so advantageous or so lucrative as victory in battle1 or to put it negatively1 nothing so disastrous and expensive as defeat4 ,he will enthusiastically seek out and provide everything conducive to victory1 he will painstakingly discover and guard against all that tends to defeat1 and when satisfied that all is ready and ripe for victory he will deliver battle energetically1 and what is equally important1 until the hour of final preparation has arrived1 7#aj7 he will be cautious to deliver battle4 ,do not despise men of economic genius1 ,nicomachides2 the difference between the devotion requisite to private affairs and to affairs of state is merely one of quantity4 ,for the rest the parallel holds strictly1 and in this respect pre-eminently1 that both are concerned with human instruments3 which human beings1 moreover1 are of one type and temperament1 whether we speak of devotion to public affairs or of the administration of private property4 ,to fare well in either case is given to those who know the secret of dealing with humanity1 whereas the absence of that knowledge will as certainly imply in either case a fatal note of discord4 7#aa7 7#aj7 ,lit4 as long as he is unprepared4 7#aa7 ,l4 ,dindorf1 ,index ,graec4 ,ox4 ed42 cf4 ,hor4 ,ep4 ,,ii4 ii4 #add1 sed verae numerosque modosque ediscere vitae1 the harmony of life1 ,conington4 ,v ,a conversation held with ,pericles the son of the great statesman may here be introduced4 7#a7 ,socrates began3 7#a7 ,or1 ,on one occasion ,pericles was the person addressed in conversation4 ,for ,pericles see ,hell4 ,i4 v4 #af2 vii4 #ae2 ,plut4 ,pericl4 #cg 7,clough1 i4 #cfh74 ,i am looking forward1 ,i must tell you1 ,pericles1 to a great improvement in our military affairs when you are minister of war4 7#b7 ,the prestige of ,athens1 ,i hope1 will rise2 we shall gain the mastery over our enemies4 7#b7 ,strategos4 ,pericles replied3 ,i devoutly wish your words might be fulfilled1 but how this happy result is to be obtained1 ,i am at a loss to discover4 ,shall we 7,socrates continued71 shall we balance the arguments for and against1 and consider to what extent the possibility does exist8 ,pray let us do so 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,well then1 you know that in point of numbers the ,athenians are not inferior to the ,boeotians8 ,per4 ,yes1 ,i am aware of that4 ,soc4 ,and do you think the ,boeotians could furnish a better pick of fine healthy men than the ,athenians8 ,per4 ,i think we should very well hold our own in that respect4 ,soc4 ,and which of the two would you take to be the more united people--the friendlier among themselves8 ,per4 ,the ,athenians1 ,i should say1 for so many sections of the ,boeotians1 resenting the selfish policy 7#c7 of ,thebes1 are ill disposed to that power1 but at ,athens ,i see nothing of the sort4 7#c7 ,the self-aggrandisement4 ,soc4 ,but perhaps you will say that there is no people more jealous of honour or haughtier in spirit4 7#d7 ,and these feelings are no weak spurs to quicken even a dull spirit to hazard all for glory's sake and fatherland4 7#d7 ,reading megalophronestatoi1 after ,cobet4 ,see ,hipparch1 vii4 #c2 or if as vulg4 philophronestatoi1 transl4 more affable4 ,per4 ,nor is there much fault to find with ,athenians in these respects4 ,soc4 ,and if we turn to consider the fair deeds of ancestry1 7#e7 to no people besides ourselves belongs so rich a heritage of stimulating memories1 whereby so many of us are stirred to pursue virtue with devotion and to show ourselves in our turn also men of valour like our sires4 7#e7 ,see ,wesley's anthem1 ,eccles4 xliv4 #a1 ,let us now praise famous men and our fathers that begat us4 ,per4 ,all that you say1 ,socrates1 is most true1 but do you observe that ever since the disaster of the thousand under ,tolmides at ,lebadeia1 coupled with that under ,hippocrates at ,delium1 7#f7 the prestige of ,athens by comparison with the ,boeotians has been lowered1 whilst the spirit of ,thebes as against ,athens had been correspondingly exalted1 so that those ,boeotians who in old days did not venture to give battle to the ,athenians even in their own territory unless they had the ,lacedaemonians and the rest of the ,peloponnesians to help them1 do nowadays threaten to make an incursion into ,attica single-handed2 and the ,athenians1 who formerly1 if they had to deal with the ,boeotians 7#g7 only1 made havoc of their territory1 are now afraid the ,boeotians may some day harry ,attica4 7#f7 ,lebadeia1 #ddg ,b4,c42 ,delium1 #dbd ,b4,c4 ,for ,tolmides and ,hippocrates see ,thuc4 i4 #aac2 iv4 #ajj foll42 ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 v4 #dga2 vi4 #ecc4 7#g7 ,reading ote ,b4 monoi1 al4 ou monoi1 when the ,boeotians were not unaided4 ,to which ,socrates3 ,yes1 ,i perceive that this is so1 but it seems to me that the state was never more tractably disposed1 never so ripe for a really good leader1 as to-day4 ,for if boldness be the parent of carelessness1 laxity1 and insubordination1 it is the part of fear to make people more disposed to application1 obedience1 and good order4 ,a proof of which you may discover in the behaviour of people on ship-board4 ,it is in seasons of calm weather when there is nothing to fear that disorder may be said to reign1 but as soon as there is apprehension of a storm1 or an enemy in sight1 the scene changes2 not only is each word of command obeyed1 but there is a hush of silent expectation2 the mariners wait to catch the next signal like an orchestra with eyes upon the leader4 ,per4 ,but indeed1 given that now is the opportunity to take obedience at the flood1 it is high time also to explain by what means we are to rekindle in the hearts of our countrymen 7#h7 the old fires--the passionate longing for antique valour1 for the glory and the wellbeing of the days of old4 7#h7 ,reading anerasthenai1 ,schneider's emendation of the vulg4 aneristhenai4 ,well 7proceeded ,socrates71 supposing we wished them to lay claim to certain material wealth now held by others1 we could not better stimulate them to lay hands on the objects coveted than by showing them that these were ancestral possessions 7#i7 to which they had a natural right4 ,but since our object is that they should set their hearts on virtuous pre-eminence1 we must prove to them that such headship combined with virtue is an old time-honoured heritage which pertains to them beyond all others1 and that if they strive earnestly after it they will soon out-top the world4 7#i7 ,cf4 ,solon in the matter of ,salamis1 ,plut4 ,sol4 #h2 ,bergk4 ,poet4 ,lyr4 ,gr4 ,solon1 ,,salamis1 i4 #b1 #c4 ,por4 ,how are we to inculcate this lesson8 ,soc4 ,i think by reminding them of a fact already registered in their minds1 7#aj7 that the oldest of our ancestors whose names are known to us were also the bravest of heroes4 7#aj7 ,or1 to which their ears are already opened4 ,per4 ,i suppose you refer to that judgment of the gods which1 for their virtue's sake1 ,cecrops and his followers were called on to decide8 7#aa7 7#aa7 ,see ,apollodorus1 iii4 #ad4 ,soc4 ,yes1 ,i refer to that and to the birth and rearing of ,erectheus1 7#ab7 and also to the war 7#ac7 which in his days was waged to stay the tide of invasion from the whole adjoining continent2 and that other war in the days of the ,heraclidae 7#ad7 against the men of ,peloponnese2 and that series of battles fought in the days of ,theseus 7#ae7--;in all which the virtuous pre-eminence of our ancestry above the men of their own times was made manifest4 ,or1 if you please1 we may come down to things of a later date1 which their descendants and the heroes of days not so long anterior to our own wrought in the struggle with the lords of ,asia1 7#af7 nay of ,europe also1 as far as ,macedonia3 a people possessing a power and means of attack far exceeding any who had gone before--who1 moreover1 had accomplished the doughtiest deeds4 ,these things the men of ,athens wrought partly single-handed1 7#ag7 and partly as sharers with the ,peloponnesians in laurels won by land and sea4 ,heroes were these men also1 far outshining1 as tradition tells us1 the peoples of their time4 7#ab7 ,cf4 ,il4 ii4 #edg1 ',erekhtheos megaletoros k4t4l4 7#ac7 ,cf4 ,isoc4 ,paneg4 #ai1 who handles all the topics4 7#ad7 ,commonly spoken of as the ,return4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 ,,ii4 ch4 xviii4 7#ae7 ,against the ,amazons and ,thracians2 cf4 ,herod4 ix4 #bg2 ,plut4 ,thes4 #bg4 7#af7 ,the ,persian wars2 cf4 ,thucyd4 ,i4 i4 7#ag7 ,he omits the ,plataeans4 ,per4 ,yes1 so runs the story of their heroism4 ,soc4 ,therefore it is that1 amidst the many changes of inhabitants1 and the migrations which have1 wave after wave1 swept over ,hellas1 these maintained themselves in their own land1 unmoved2 so that it was a common thing for others to turn to them as to a court of appeal on points of right1 or to flee to ,athens as a harbour of refuge from the hand of the oppressor4 7#ah7 7#ah7 ,cf4 7,plat47 ,menex42 ,isocr4 ,paneg4 ,then ,pericles3 ,and the wonder to me1 ,socrates1 is how our city ever came to decline4 ,soc4 ,i think we are victims of our own success4 ,like some athlete1 7#ai7 whose facile preponderance in the arena has betrayed him into laxity until he eventually succumbs to punier antagonists1 so we ,athenians1 in the plenitude of our superiority1 have neglected ourselves and are become degenerate4 7#ai7 ,reading athletai tines1 or if alloi tines1 translate any one else4 ,per4 ,what then ought we to do now to recover our former virtue8 ,soc4 ,there need be no mystery about that1 ,i think4 ,we can rediscover the institutions of our forefathers--applying them to the regulation of our lives with something of their precision1 and not improbably with like success2 or we can imitate those who stand at the front of affairs to-day1 7#bj7 adapting to ourselves their rule of life1 in which case1 if we live up to the standard of our models1 we may hope at least to rival their excellence1 or1 by a more conscientious adherence to what they aim at1 rise superior4 7#bj7 ,sc4 the ,lacedaemonians4 ,see ,w4 ,l4 ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cif4 ,you would seem to suggest 7he answered7 that the spirit of beautiful and brave manhood has taken wings and left our city2 7#ba7 as1 for instance1 when will ,athenians1 like the ,lacedaemonians1 reverence old age--the ,athenian1 who takes his own father as a starting-point for the contempt he pours upon grey hairs8 ,when will he pay as strict an attention to the body1 who is not content with neglecting a good habit1 7#bb7 but laughs to scorn those who are careful in this matter8 ,when shall we ,athenians so obey our magistrates--we who take a pride1 as it were1 in despising authority8 ,when1 once more1 shall we be united as a people--we who1 instead of combining to promote common interests1 delight in blackening each other's characters1 7#bc7 envying one another more than we envy all the world besides2 and--which is our worst failing--who1 in private and public intercourse alike1 are torn by dissension and are caught in a maze of litigation1 and prefer to make capital out of our neighbour's difficulties rather than to render natural assistance8 ,to make our conduct consistent1 indeed1 we treat our national interests no better than if they were the concerns of some foreign state2 we make them bones of contention to wrangle over1 and rejoice in nothing so much as in possessing means and ability to indulge these tastes4 ,from this hotbed is engendered in the state a spirit of blind folly 7#bd7 and cowardice1 and in the hearts of the citizens spreads a tangle of hatred and mutual hostility which1 as ,i often shudder to think1 will some day cause some disaster to befall the state greater than it can bear4 7#be7 7#ba7 ,or1 is far enough away from ,athens4 7#bb7 ,see below1 ,,iii4 xii4 #e2 ,pol4 ,ath4 i4 #ac2 ,rev4 iv4 #eb4 7#bc7 ,or1 to deal despitefully with one another4 7#bd7 ,reading ateria4 ,see ,l4 ,dindorf ad loc41 ,ox4 ed4 lxii4 ,al4 apeiria1 a want of skill1 or ataxia1 disorderliness4 ,cf4 ,pol4 ,ath4 i4 #e4 7#be7 ,possibly the author is thinking of the events of #djf1 #dje ,b4,c4 7see ,hell4 ,i4 vii4 and ,,ii471 and history may repeat itself4 ,do not 7replied ,socrates71 do not1 ,i pray you1 permit yourself to believe that ,athenians are smitten with so incurable a depravity4 ,do you not observe their discipline in all naval matters8 ,look at their prompt and orderly obedience to the superintendents at the gymnastic contests1 7#bf7 their quite unrivalled subservience to their teachers in the training of our choruses4 7#bf7 ,epistatoi1 i4e4 stewards and training-masters4 ,yes 7he answered71 there's the wonder of it2 to think that all those good people should so obey their leaders1 but that our hoplites and our cavalry1 who may be supposed to rank before the rest of the citizens in excellence of manhood1 7#bg7 should be so entirely unamenable to discipline4 7#bg7 kalokagathia4 ,then ,socrates3 ,well1 but the council which sits on ,areopagos is composed of citizens of approved 7#bh7 character1 is it not8 7#bh7 ,technically1 they must have passed the dokimasia4 ,and for the ,aeropagos see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 v4 #dih2 ,aristot4 ,pol4 ii4 #ab2 ,ath4 ,pol4 #d4 #d1 where see ,dr4 ,sandys' note1 p4 #ah4 ,certainly 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,then can you name any similar body1 judicial or executive1 trying cases or transacting other business with greater honour1 stricter legality1 higher dignity1 or more impartial justice8 ,no1 ,i have no fault to find on that score 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,then we ought not to despair as though all sense of orderliness and good discipline had died out of our countrymen4 ,still 7he answered71 if it is not to harp upon one string1 ,i maintain that in military service1 where1 if anywhere1 sobreity and temperance1 orderliness and good discipline are needed1 none of these essentials receives any attention4 ,may it not perhaps be 7asked ,socrates7 that in this department they are officered by those who have the least knowledge8 7#bi7 ,do you not notice1 to take the case of harp-players1 choric performers1 dancers1 and the like1 that no one would ever dream of leading if he lacked the requisite knowledge8 and the same holds of wrestlers or pancratiasts4 7#bi7 episteme4 ,see below1 ,,iii4 ix4 #aj4 ,moreover1 while in these cases any one in command can tell you where he got the elementary knowledge of what he presides over1 most generals are amateurs and improvisers4 7#cj7 ,i do not at all suppose that you are one of that sort4 ,i believe you could give as clear an account of your schooling in strategy as you could in the matter of wrestling4 ,no doubt you have got at first hand many of your father's rules for generalship1 which you carefully preserve1 besides having collected many others from every quarter whence it was possible to pick up any knowledge which would be of use to a future general4 ,again1 ,i feel sure you are deeply concerned to escape even unconscious ignorance of anything which will be serviceable to you in so high an office2 and if you detect in yourself any ignorance1 you turn to those who have knowledge in these matters 7sparing neither gifts nor gratitude7 to supplement your ignorance by their knowledge and to secure their help4 7#cj7 ,cf4 ,pol4 ,lac4 xiii4 #e4 ,to which ,pericles3 ,i am not so blind1 ,socrates1 as to imagine you say these words under the idea that ,i am truly so careful in these matters2 but rather your object is to teach me that the would-be general must make such things his care4 ,i admit in any case all you say4 ,socrates proceeded3 ,has it ever caught your observation1 ,pericles1 that a high mountain barrier stretches like a bulwark in front of our country down towards ,boeotia--cleft1 moreover1 by narrow and precipitous passes1 the only avenues into the heart of ,attica1 which lies engirdled by a ring of natural fortresses8 7#ca7 7#ca7 ,the mountains are ,cithaeron and ,parnes ,n41 and ,cerata ,n4,w4 ,per4 ,certainly ,i have4 ,soc4 ,well1 and have you ever heard tell of the ,mysians and ,pisidians living within the territory of the great king1 7#cb7 who1 inside their mountain fortresses1 lightly armed1 are able to rush down and inflict much injury on the king's territory by their raids1 while preserving their own freedom8 7#cb7 ,for this illustration see ,anab4 ,,iii4 ii4 #bc2 cf4 ,econ4 iv4 #ah1 where ,socrates 7,,xs7 refers to ,cyrus's expedition and death4 ,per4 ,yes1 the circumstance is not new to me4 ,and do you not think 7added ,socrates7 that a corps of young able-bodied ,athenians1 accoutred with lighter arms1 7#cc7 and holding our natural mountain rampart in possession1 would prove at once a thorn in the enemy's side offensively1 whilst defensively they would form a splendid bulwark to protect the country8 7#cc7 ,cf4 the reforms of ,iphicrates4 ,to which ,pericles3 ,i think1 ,socrates1 these would be all useful measures1 decidedly4 ,if1 then 7replied ,socrates71 these suggestions meet your approbation1 try1 ,o best of men1 to realise them--if you can carry out a portion of them1 it will be an honour to yourself and a blessing to the state2 while1 if you fail in any point1 there will be no damage done to the city nor discredit to yourself4 ,,vi ,glaucon1 7#a7 the son of ,ariston1 had conceived such an ardour to gain the headship of the state that nothing could hinder him but he must deliver a course of public speeches1 7#b7 though he had not yet reached the age of twenty4 ,his friends and relatives tried in vain to stop him making himself ridiculous and being dragged down from the bema4 7#c7 ,socrates1 who took a kindly interest in the youth for the sake of ,charmides 7#d7 the son of ,glaucon1 and of ,plato1 alone succeeded in restraining him4 ,it happened thus4 ,he fell in with him1 and first of all1 to get him to listen1 detained him by some such remarks as the following3 7#e7 7#a7 ,glaucon1 ,plato's brother4 ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #ejh4 7#b7 ,harangue the ,people4 7#c7 ,see ,plat4 ,protag4 #cai ,c3 ,and if some person offers to give them advice who is not supposed by them to have any skill in the art 7sc4 of politics71 even though he be good-looking1 and rich1 and noble1 they will not listen to him1 but laugh at him1 and hoot him1 until he is either clamoured down and retires of himself2 or if he persists1 he is dragged away or put out by the constables at the command of the prytanes 7,jowett74 ,cf4 ,aristoph4 ,knights1 #ffe1 kath eilkon auton oi prutaneis kai toxotai4 7#d7 ,for ,charmides 7maternal uncle of ,plato and ,glaucon1 cousin of ,critias7 see ch4 vii4 below2 ,plato the philosopher1 ,glaucon's brother1 see ,cobet1 ,pros4 ,xen4 p4 #bh4 7#e7 ,or1 and in the first instance addressing him in such terms he could not choose but hear1 detained him4 ,see above1 ,,ii4 vi4 #aa4 ,socrates applies his own theory4 ,ah1 ,glaucon 7he exclaimed71 so you have determined to become prime minister8 7#f7 7#f7 prostateuein4 ,glauc4 ,yes1 ,socrates1 ,i have4 ,soc4 ,and what a noble aim6 if aught human ever deserved to be called noble2 since if you succeed in your design1 it follows1 as the night the day1 you will be able not only to gratify your every wish1 but you will be in a position to benefit your friends1 you will raise up your father's house1 you will exalt your fatherland1 you will become a name thrice famous in the city first1 and next in ,hellas1 and lastly even among barbarians perhaps1 like ,themistocles2 but be it here or be it there1 wherever you be1 you will be the observed of all beholders4 7#g7 7#g7 ,the centre of attraction--the cynosure of neighbouring eyes4 ,the heart of ,glaucon swelled with pride as he drank in the words1 and gladly he stayed to listen4 ,presently ,socrates proceeded3 ,then this is clear1 ,glaucon1 is it not8 that you must needs benefit the city1 since you desire to reap her honours8 ,glauc4 ,undoubtedly4 ,then1 by all that is sacred 7,socrates continued71 do not keep us in the dark1 but tell us in what way do you propose first to benefit the state8 what is your starting-point8 7#h7 ,when ,glaucon remained with sealed lips1 as if he were now for the first time debating what this starting-point should be1 ,socrates continued3 ,i presume1 if you wished to improve a friend's estate1 you would endeavour to do so by adding to its wealth1 would you not8 ,so here1 maybe1 you will try to add to the wealth of the state8 7#h7 ,or1 tell us what your starting-point will be in the path of benefaction4 ,most decidedly 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and we may take it the state will grow wealthier in proportion as her revenues increase8 ,glauc4 ,that seems probable1 at any rate4 ,soc4 ,then would you kindly tell us from what sources the revenues of the state are at present derived1 and what is their present magnitude8 ,no doubt you have gone carefully into the question1 so that if any of these are failing you may make up the deficit1 or if neglected for any reason1 make some new provision4 7#i7 7#i7 ,or1 or if others have dropped out or been negligently overlooked1 you may replace them4 ,glauc4 ,nay1 to speak the truth1 these are matters ,i have not thoroughly gone into4 ,never mind 7he said7 if you have omitted the point2 but you might oblige us by running through the items or heads of expenditure4 ,obviously you propose to remove all those which are superfluous8 ,glauc4 ,well1 no4 ,upon my word ,i have not had time to look into that side of the matter either as yet4 ,soc4 ,then we will postpone for the present the problem of making the state wealthier2 obviously without knowing the outgoings and the incomings it would be impossible to deal with the matter seriously4 ,but1 ,socrates 7,glaucon remarked71 it is possible to enrich the state out of the pockets of her enemies6 ,yes1 to be sure1 considerably 7answered ,socrates71 in the event of getting the better of them2 but in the event of being worsted1 it is also possible to lose what we have got4 ,a true observation 7he replied74 ,and therefore 7proceeded ,socrates71 before he makes up his mind with what enemy to go to war1 a statesman should know the relative powers of his own city and the adversary's1 so that1 in case the superiority be on his own side1 he may throw the weight of his advice into the scale of undertaking war2 but if the opposite he may plead in favour of exercising caution4 ,you are right 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,then would you for our benefit enumerate the land and naval forces first of ,athens and then of our opponents8 ,glauc4 ,pardon me4 ,i could not tell you them off-hand at a moment's notice4 ,or 7added ,socrates71 if you have got the figures on paper1 you might produce them4 ,i cannot tell how anxious ,i am to hear your statement4 ,glauc4 ,no1 ,i assure you1 ,i have not got them even on paper yet4 ,soc4 ,well then1 we will defer tending advice on the topic of peace or war1 in a maiden speech at any rate4 7#aj7 ,i can understand that1 owing to the magnitude of the questions1 in these early days of your ministry you have not yet fully examined them4 ,but come1 ,i am sure that you have studied the defences of the country1 at all events1 and you know exactly how many forts and outposts are serviceable 7#aa7 and how many are not2 you can tell us which garrisons are strong enough and which defective2 and you are prepared to throw in the weight of your advice in favour of increasing the serviceable outposts and sweeping away those that are superfluous8 7#aj7 ,see ,econ4 xi4 #a4 7#aa7 ,or1 advantageously situated4 ,see the author's own tract on ,revenues4 ,glauc4 ,yes1 sweep them all away1 that's my advice2 for any good that is likely to come of them6 ,defences indeed6 so maintained that the property of the rural districts is simply pilfered4 ,but suppose you sweep away the outposts 7he asked71 may not something worse1 think you1 be the consequence8 will not sheer plundering be free to any ruffian who likes8444 ,but may ,i ask is this judgment the result of personal inspection8 have you gone yourself and examined the defences8 or how do you know that they are all maintained as you say8 ,glauc4 ,i conjecture that it is so4 ,soc4 ,well then1 until we have got beyond the region of conjecture shall we defer giving advice on the matter8 7,it will be time enough when we know the facts47 ,possibly it would be better to wait till then 7replied ,glaucon74 ,soc4 ,then there are the mines1 7#ab7 but1 of course1 ,i am aware that you have not visited them in person1 so as to be able to say why they are less productive than formerly4 7#ab7 ,again the author's tract on ,revenues is a comment on the matter4 ,well1 no2 ,i have never been there myself 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,no1 ,heaven help us6 an unhealthy district by all accounts2 so that1 when the moment for advice on that topic arrives1 you will have an excuse ready to hand4 ,i see you are making fun of me 7,glaucon answered74 ,soc4 ,well1 but here is a point1 ,i am sure1 which you have not neglected4 ,no1 you will have thoroughly gone into it1 and you can tell us4 ,for how long a time could the corn supplies from the country districts support the city8 how much is requisite for a single year1 so that the city may not run short of this prime necessary1 before you are well aware2 but on the contrary you with your full knowledge will be in a position to give advice on so vital a question1 to the aid or may be the salvation of your country8 ,it is a colossal business this 7,glaucon answered71 if ,i am to be obliged to give attention to all these details4 ,soc4 ,on the other hand1 a man could not even manage his own house or his estate well1 without1 in the first place1 knowing what he requires1 and1 in the second place1 taking pains1 item by item1 to supply his wants4 ,but since this city consists of more than ten thousand houses1 and it is not easy to pay minute attention to so many all at once1 how is it you did not practise yourself by trying to augment the resources of one at any rate of these--,i mean your own uncle's8 ,the service would not be thrown away4 ,then if your strength suffices in the single case you might take in hand a larger number2 but if you fail to relieve one1 how could you possibly hope to succeed with many8 ,how absurd for a man1 if he cannot carry half a hundredweight1 to attempt to carry a whole6 7#ac7 7#ac7 ,lit4 a single talent's weight444 to carry two4 ,glauc4 ,nay1 for my part1 ,i am willing enough to assist my uncle's house1 if my uncle would only be persuaded to listen to my advice4 ,soc4 ,then1 when you cannot persuade your uncle1 do you imagine you will be able to make the whole ,athenian people1 uncle and all1 obey you8 ,be careful1 ,glaucon 7he added71 lest in your thirst for glory and high repute you come to the opposite4 ,do you not see how dangerous it is for a man to speak or act beyond the range 7#ad7 of his knowledge8 ,to take the cases known to you of people whose conversation or conduct clearly transcends these limits3 should you say they gain more praise or more blame on that account8 ,are they admired the rather or despised8 ,or1 again1 consider those who do know what they say and what they do2 and you will find1 ,i venture to say1 that in every sort of undertaking those who enjoy repute and admiration belong to the class of those endowed with the highest knowledge2 whilst conversely the people of sinister reputation1 the mean and the contemptible1 emanate from some depth of ignorance and dulness4 ,if therefore what you thirst for is repute and admiration as a statesman1 try to make sure of one accomplishment3 in other words1 the knowledge as far as in you lies of what you wish to do4 7#ae7 ,if1 indeed1 with this to distinguish you from the rest of the world you venture to concern yourself with state affairs1 it would not surprise me but that you might reach the goal of your ambition easily4 7#ad7 ,or1 to talk of things which he does not know1 or to meddle with them4 7#ae7 ,or1 try as far as possible to achieve one thing1 and that is to know the business which you propose to carry out4 ,,vii ,now ,charmides1 7#a7 the son of ,glaucon1 was1 as ,socrates observed1 a man of mark and influence3 a much more powerful person in fact than the mass of those devoted to politics at that date1 but at the same time he was a man who shrank from approaching the people or busying himself with the concerns of the state4 ,accordingly ,socrates addressed him thus3 7#a7 ,see last chapter for his relationship to ,glaucon 7the younger7 and ,plato2 for a conception of his character1 ,plato's dialogue ,charmides2 ,theag4 #abh ,e2 ,hell4 ,,ii4 iv4 #ai2 ,symp4 iv4 #ca2 ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #dhj4 ,tell me1 ,charmides1 supposing some one competent to win a victory in the arena and to receive a crown1 7#b7 whereby he will gain honour himself and make the land of his fathers more glorious in ,hellas1 7#c7 were to refuse to enter the lists--what kind of person should you set him down to be8 7#b7 ,in some conquest 7e4g4 of the ,olympic games7 where the prize is a mere wreath4 7#c7 ,cf4 ,pindar passim4 ,clearly an effeminate and cowardly fellow 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and what if another man1 who had it in him1 by devotion to affairs of state1 to exalt his city and win honour himself thereby1 were to shrink and hesitate and hang back--would he too not reasonably be regarded as a coward8 ,possibly 7he answered72 but why do you address these questions to me8 ,because 7replied ,socrates7 ,i think that you1 who have this power1 do hesitate to devote yourself to matters which1 as being a citizen1 if for no other reason1 you are bound to take part in4 7#d7 7#d7 ,or add1 and cannot escape from4 ,charm4 ,and wherein have you detected in me this power1 that you pass so severe a sentence upon me8 ,soc4 ,i have detected it plainly enough in those gatherings 7#e7 in which you meet the politicians of the day1 when1 as ,i observe1 each time they consult you on any point you have always good advice to offer1 and when they make a blunder you lay your finger on the weak point immediately4 7#e7 ,see above1 ,i4 v4 #d2 here possibly of political club conversation4 ,charm4 ,to discuss and reason in private is one thing1 ,socrates1 to battle in the throng of the assembly is another4 ,soc4 ,and yet a man who can count1 counts every bit as well in a crowd as when seated alone by himself2 and it is the best performer on the harp in private who carries off the palm of victory in public4 ,charm4 ,but do you not see that modesty and timidity are feelings implanted in man's nature8 and these are much more powerfully present to us in a crowd than within the circle of our intimates4 ,soc4 ,yes1 but what ,i am bent on teaching you is that while you feel no such bashfulness and timidity before the wisest and strongest of men1 you are ashamed of opening your lips in the midst of weaklings and dullards4 7#f7 ,is it the fullers among them of whom you stand in awe1 or the cobblers1 or the carpenters1 or the coppersmiths1 or the merchants1 or the farmers1 or the hucksters of the market-place exchanging their wares1 and bethinking them how they are to buy this thing cheap1 and to sell the other dear--is it before these you are ashamed1 for these are the individual atoms out of which the ,public ,assembly is composed8 7#g7 ,and what is the difference1 pray1 between your behaviour and that of a man who1 being the superior of trained athletes1 quails before a set of amateurs8 ,is it not the case that you who can argue so readily with the foremost statesmen in the city1 some of whom affect to look down upon you--you1 with your vast superiority over practised popular debaters--are no sooner confronted with a set of folk who never in their lives gave politics a thought1 and into whose heads certainly it never entered to look down upon you--than you are afraid to open your lips in mortal terror of being laughed at8 7#f7 ,cf4 ,cic4 ,tusc4 v4 #cf1 #ajd2 ,plat4 ,gorg4 #deb ,e1 #ded ,b4 7#g7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,protag4 #cai ,c4 ,see ,w4 ,l4 ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #ajc4 ,well1 but you would admit 7he answered7 that sound argument does frequently bring down the ridicule of the ,popular ,assembly4 ,soc4 ,which is equally true of the others4 7#h7 ,and that is just what rouses my astonishment1 that you who can cope so easily with these lordly people 7when guilty of ridicule7 should persuade yourself that you cannot stand up against a set of commoners4 7#i7 ,my good fellow1 do not be ignorant of yourself6 7#aj7 do not fall into that commonest of errors--theirs who rush off to investigate the concerns of the rest of the world1 and have no time to turn and examine themselves4 ,yet that is a duty which you must not in cowardly sort draw back from3 rather must you brace ourself to give good heed to your own self2 and as to public affairs1 if by any manner of means they may be improved through you1 do not neglect them4 ,success in the sphere of politics means that not only the mass of your fellow-citizens1 but your personal friends and you yourself last but not least1 will profit by your action4 7#h7 oi eteroi1 i4e4 the foremost statesmen mentioned before4 ,al4 the opposite party1 the ,tories1 if one may so say1 of the political clubs4 7#i7 ,lit4 those444 these4 7#aj7 ,ernesti aptly cf4 ,cic4 ad ,quint4 iii4 #f4 ,see below1 ,,iii4 ix4 #f2 ,,iv4 ii4 #bd4 ,,viii ,once when ,aristippus 7#a7 set himself to subject ,socrates to a cross-examination1 such as he had himself undergone at the hands of ,socrates on a former occasion1 7#b7 ,socrates1 being minded to benefit those who were with him1 gave his answers less in the style of a debater guarding against perversions of his argument1 than of a man persuaded of the supreme importance of right conduct4 7#c7 7#a7 ,for ,aristippus see above1 p4 #ch2 for the connection1 boulomenos tous sunontas ophelein1 between this and the preceeding chapter1 see above1 ,conspectus1 p4 xxvi4 7#b7 ,possibly in reference to the conversation above4 ,in reference to the present dialogue see ,grote1 ,plato1 ,i4 xi4 p4 #chj foll4 7#c7 ,for prattein ta deonta cf4 below1 ,,iii4 ix4 #d1 #aa2 ,plat4 ,charm4 #afd ,b2 but see ,j4 ,j4 ,hartman1 ,an4 ,xen4 p4 #ada4 ,aristippus asked him if he knew of anything good1 7#d7 intending in case he assented and named any particular good thing1 like food or drink1 or wealth1 or health1 or strength1 or courage1 to point out that the thing named was sometimes bad4 ,but he1 knowing that if a thing troubles us1 we immediately want that which will put an end to our trouble1 answered precisely as it was best to do4 7#e7 7#d7 ,see ,grote1 ,plato1 ii4 #ehe1 on ,philebus4 7#e7 ,or1 made the happiest answer4 ,soc4 ,do ,i understand you to ask me whether ,i know anything good for fever8 ,no 7he replied71 that is not my question4 ,soc4 ,then for inflammation of the eyes8 ,aristip4 ,no1 nor yet that4 ,soc4 ,well then1 for hunger8 ,aristip4 ,no1 nor yet for hunger4 ,well1 but 7answered ,socrates7 if you ask me whether ,i know of any good thing which is good for nothing1 ,i neither know of it nor want to know4 ,and when ,aristippus1 returning to the charge1 asked him if he knew of any thing beautiful4 ,he answered3 ,yes1 many things4 ,aristip4 ,are they all like each other8 ,soc4 ,on the contrary1 they are often as unlike as possible4 ,how then 7he asked7 can that be beautiful which is unlike the beautiful8 ,soc4 ,bless me6 for the simple reason that it is possible for a man who is a beautiful runner to be quite unlike another man who is a beautiful boxer1 7#f7 or for a shield1 which is a beautiful weapon for the purpose of defence1 to be absolutely unlike a javelin1 which is a beautiful weapon of swift and sure discharge4 7#f7 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 x4 #afd1 in reference to ,epaminondas and his gymnastic training2 below1 ,,iii4 x4 #f4 ,aristip4 ,your answers are no better now than 7#g7 when ,i asked you whether you knew any good thing4 ,they are both of a pattern4 7#g7 ,or1 ,you answer precisely as you did when444 ,soc4 ,and so they should be4 ,do you imagine that one thing is good and another beautiful8 ,do not you know that relatively to the same standard all things are at once beautiful and good8 7#h7 ,in the first place1 virtue is not a good thing relatively to one standard and a beautiful thing relatively to another standard2 and in the next place1 human beings1 on the same principle 7#i7 and relatively to the same standard1 are called beautiful and good2 and so the bodily frames of men relatively to the same standards are seen to be beautiful and good1 and in general all things capable of being used by man are regarded as at once beautiful and good relatively to the same standard--the standing being in each case what the thing happens to be useful for4 7#aj7 7#h7 ,or1 good and beautiful are convertible terms3 whatever is good is beautiful1 or whatever is beautiful is good4 7#i7 ,or1 in the same breath4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,hipp4 maj4 #bie ,d2 ,gorg4 #dgd ,d4 7#aj7 ,or1 and this standard is the serviceableness of the thing in question4 ,aristip4 ,then ,i presume even a basket for carrying dung 7#aa7 is a beautiful thing8 7#aa7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,hipp4 maj4 #bhh ,d1 #bij ,d2 and ,grote's note1 loc4 cit4 p4 #cha3 in regard to the question wherein consists to kalon8 ,soc4 ,to be sure1 and a spear of gold an ugly thing1 if for their respective uses--the former is well and the latter ill adapted4 ,aristip4 ,do you mean to assert that the same things may be beautiful and ugly8 ,soc4 ,yes1 to be sure2 and by the same showing things may be good and bad3 as1 for instance1 what is good for hunger may be bad for fever1 and what is good for fever bad for hunger2 or again1 what is beautiful for wrestling is often ugly for running2 and in general everything is good and beautiful when well adapted for the end in view1 bad and ugly when ill adapted for the same4 ,similarly when he spoke about houses1 7#ab7 and argued that the same house must be at once beautiful and useful--,i could not help feeling that he was giving a good lesson on the problem3 how a house ought to be built4 ,he investigated the matter thus3 7#ab7 ,see ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #dhh2 ,classical ,review1 vii4 #bfb4 ,soc4 ,do you admit that any one purposing to build a perfect house 7#ac7 will plan to make it at once as pleasant and as useful to live in as possible8 and that point being admitted1 7#ad7 the next question would be3 7#ac7 ,or1 the ideal house2 lit4 a house as it should be4 7#ad7 ,see below1 ,,iv4 vi4 #ae4 ,it is pleasant to have one's house cool in summer and warm in winter1 is it not8 and this proposition also having obtained assent1 ,now1 supposing a house to have a southern aspect1 sunshine during winter will steal in under the verandah1 7#ae7 but in summer1 when the sun traverses a path right over our heads1 the roof will afford an agreeable shade1 will it not8 ,if1 then1 such an arrangement is desirable1 the southern side of a house should be built higher to catch the rays of the winter sun1 and the northern side lower to prevent the cold winds finding ingress2 in a word1 it is reasonable to suppose that the pleasantest and most beautiful dwelling place will be one in which the owner can at all seasons of the year find the pleasantest retreat1 and stow away his goods with the greatest security4 7#ae7 ,or1 porticoes or collonades4 ,paintings 7#af7 and ornamental mouldings are apt 7he said7 to deprive one of more joy 7#ag7 than they confer4 7#af7 ,see ,econ4 ix4 #b2 ,plat4 ,hipp4 maj4 #bih ,a2 ,rep4 #ebi2 ,becker1 ,charicles1 #bfh 7,engl4 trans47 7#ag7 euphrosunas1 archaic or poetical joyance4 ,see ,hiero1 vi4 #a4 ,the fittest place for a temple or an altar 7he maintained7 was some site visible from afar1 and untrodden by foot of man3 7#ah7 since it was a glad thing for the worshipper to lift up his eyes afar off and offer up his orison2 glad also to wend his way peaceful to prayer unsullied4 7#ai7 7#ah7 e4g4 the summit of ,lycabettos1 or the height on which stands the temple of ,phygaleia4 ,cf4 ,eur4 ,phoen4 #acgb1 ,pallados khrusaspidos blepsas pros oikon euxato of ,eteocles4 7#ai7 ,see ,vitruvius1 i4 #g1 iv4 #e1 ap4 ,schneid4 ad loc42 ,w4 ,l4 ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cch4 ,,ix ,being again asked by some one3 could courage be taught1 7#a7 or did it come by nature8 he answered3 ,i imagine that just as one body is by nature stronger than another body to encounter toils1 so one soul by nature grows more robust than another soul in face of dangers4 ,certainly ,i do note that people brought up under the same condition of laws and customs differ greatly in respect of daring4 ,still my belief is that by learning and practice the natural aptitude may always be strengthened towards courage4 ,it is clear1 for instance1 that ,scythians or ,thracians would not venture to take shield and spear and contend with ,lacedaemonians2 and it is equally evident that ,lacedaemonians would demur to entering the lists of battle against ,thracians if limited to their light shields and javelins1 or against ,scythians without some weapon more familiar than their bows and arrows4 7#b7 ,and as far as ,i can see1 this principle holds generally3 the natural differences of one man from another may be compensated by artificial progress1 the result of care and attention4 ,all which proves clearly that whether nature has endowed us with keener or blunter sensibilities1 the duty of all alike is to learn and practise those things in which we would fain achieve distinction4 7#a7 ,or1 ,when some one retorted upon him with the question3 ',can courage be taught8' and for this problem see ,,iv4 vi4 #aj1 #aa2 ,symp4 ii4 #ab2 ,plat4 ,lach42 ,protag4 #cdi2 ,phaedr4 #bfi ,d2 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cbe foll42 ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #dfh foll41 ii4 #fj2 ,jowett1 ,plato1 i4 #gg1 #aai2 ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cdc4 7#b7 ,or1 against ,thracians with light shields and javelins1 or against ,scythians with bows and arrows2 and for the national arms of these peoples respectively see ,arist4 ,lysistr4 #efc2 ,anab4 ,,iii4 iv4 #ae2 ,,vi4 ,,vii4 passim4 ,between wisdom and sobriety of soul 7which is temperance7 he drew no distinction4 7#c7 ,was a man able on the one hand to recognise things beautiful and good sufficiently to live in them8 ,had he1 on the other hand1 knowledge of the base and foul so as to beware of them8 ,if so1 ,socrates judged him to be wise at once and sound of soul 7or temperate74 7#d7 7#c7 ,but cf4 ,,iv4 vi4 #g2 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cfc4 7#d7 ,reading alla to444 kai to1 or more lit4 he discovered the wise man and sound of soul in his power not only to recognise things 'beautiful and good1' but to live and move and have his being in them2 as also in his gift of avoiding consciously things base4 ,or if alla ton444 kai ton444 transl4 ,the man who not only could recognise the beautiful and good1 but lived1 etc41 in that world1 and who moreover consciously avoided things base1 in the judgment of ,socrates was wise and sound of soul4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,charm4 ,and being further questioned whether he considered those who have the knowledge of right action1 but do not apply it1 to be wise and self-controlled8--,not a whit more1 he answered1 than ,i consider them to be unwise and intemperate4 7#e7 ,every one1 ,i conceive1 deliberately chooses what1 within the limits open to him1 he considers most conducive to his interest1 and acts accordingly4 ,i must hold therefore that those who act against rule and crookedly 7#f7 are neither wise nor self-controlled4 7#e7 ,for the phrase not a whit the more see below1 ,,iii4 xii4 #a2 ,econ4 xii4 #ah4 ,al4 ,i should by no means choose to consider them wise and self-controlled rather than foolish and intemperate4 7#f7 ,who cannot draw a straight line1 ethically speaking4 ,he said that justice1 moreover1 and all other virtue is wisdom4 ,that is to say1 things just1 and all things else that are done with virtue1 are beautiful and good2 and neither will those who know these things deliberately choose aught else in their stead1 nor will he who lacks the special knowledge of them be able to do them1 but even if he makes the attempt he will miss the mark and fail4 ,so the wise alone can perform the things which are beautiful and good2 they that are unwise cannot1 but even if they try they fail4 ,therefore1 since all things just1 and generally all things beautiful and good1 are wrought with virtue1 it is clear that justice and all other virtue is wisdom4 ,on the other hand1 madness 7he maintained7 was the opposite to wisdom2 not that he regarded simple ignorance as madness1 7#g7 but he put it thus3 for a man to be ignorant of himself1 to imagine and suppose that he knows what he knows not1 was 7he argued71 if not madness itself1 yet something very like it4 ,the mass of men no doubt hold a different language3 if a man is all abroad on some matter of which the mass of mankind are ignorant1 they do not pronounce him mad2 7#h7 but a like aberration of mind1 if only it be about matters within the scope of ordinary knowledge1 they call madness4 ,for instance1 any one who imagined himself too tall to pass under a gateway of the ,long ,wall without stooping1 or so strong as to try to lift a house1 or to attempt any other obvious impossibility1 is a madman according to them2 but in the popular sense he is not mad1 if his obliquity is confined to small matters4 ,in fact1 just as strong desire goes by the name of passion in popular parlance1 so mental obliquity on a grand scale is entitled madness4 7#g7 ,see ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cdf2 ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #djj4 7#h7 ,or1 they resent the term 'mad' being applied to people who are all abroad1 etc4 ,see ,comte1 ,pos4 ,pol4 i4 #ege2 ii4 #cgc 7,engl4 trans47 ,in answer to the question3 what is envy8 he discovered it to be a certain kind of pain2 not certainly the sorrow felt at the misfortunes of a friend or the good fortune of an enemy--that is not envy2 but1 as he said1 envy is felt by those alone who are annoyed at the successes of their friends4 ,and when some one or other expressed astonishment that any one friendlily disposed to another should be pained at his well-doing1 he reminded him of a common tendency in people3 when any one is faring ill their sympathies are touched1 they rush to the aid of the unfortunate2 but when fortune smiles on others1 they are somehow pained4 ,i do not say1 he added1 this could happen to a thoughtful person2 but it is no uncommon condition of a silly mind4 7#i7 7#i7 ,or1 a man in his senses444 a simpleton2 for the sentiment ,l4 ,dind4 cf4 ,isocr4 ad ,demonic4 #g ,d4 ,in answer to the question3 what is leisure8 ,i discover 7he said7 that most men do something3 7#aj7 for instance1 the dice player1 7#aa7 the gambler1 the buffoon1 do something1 but these have leisure2 they can1 if they like1 turn and do something better2 but nobody has leisure to turn from the better to the worse1 and if he does so turn1 when he has no leisure1 he does but ill in that4 7#aj7 ,see above1 ,i4 ii4 #eg2 and in ref4 to these definitions1 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cdg foll4 7#aa7 ,for dice-playing see ,becker1 ,charicl4 #ced 7,engl4 trans472 for buffoonery1 ib4 #ih2 ,symp4 7,to pass to another definition47 ,they are not kings or rulers 7he said7 who hold the sceptre merely1 or are chosen by fellows out of the street1 7#ab7 or are appointed by lot1 or have stepped into office by violence or by fraud2 but those who have the special knowledge 7#ac7 how to rule4 ,thus having won the admission that it is the function of a ruler to enjoin what ought to be done1 and of those who are ruled to obey1 he proceeded to point out by instances that in a ship the ruler or captain is the man of special knowledge1 to whom1 as an expert1 the shipowner himself and all the others on board obey4 ,so likewise1 in the matter of husbandry1 the proprietor of an estate2 in that of sickness1 the patient2 in that of physical training of the body1 the youthful athlete going through a course2 and1 in general1 every one directly concerned in any matter needing attention and care will either attend to this matter personally1 if he thinks he has the special knowledge2 or1 if he mistrusts his own science1 will be eager to obey any expert on the spot1 or will even send and fetch one from a distance4 ,the guidance of this expert he will follow1 and do what he has to do at his dictation4 7#ab7 ,tom1 ,dick1 and ,harry 7as we say74 7#ac7 ,the episteme4 ,see above1 ,,iii4 v4 #ba2 ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #bef4 ,and thus1 in the art of spinning wool1 he liked to point out that women are the rulers of men--and why8 because they have the knowledge of the art1 and men have not4 ,and if any one raised the objection that a tyrant has it in his power not to obey good and correct advice1 he would retort3 ,pray1 how has he the option not to obey1 considering the penalty hanging over him who disobeys the words of wisdom8 for whatever the matter be in which he disobeys the word of good advice1 he will fall into error1 ,i presume1 and falling into error1 be punished4 ,and to the suggestion that the tyrant could1 if he liked1 cut off the head of the man of wisdom1 his answer was3 ,do you think that he who destroys his best ally will go scot free1 or suffer a mere slight and passing loss8 ,is he more likely to secure his salvation that way1 think you1 or to compass his own swift destruction8 7#ad7 7#ad7 ,or1 ,is that to choose the path of safety1 think you8 ,is it not rather to sign his own death-warrent8 ,l4 ,dind4 cf4 ,hesiod1 ,works and ,days1 #bic4 ,see ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cic-cig4 ,when some one asked him3 ,what he regarded as the best pursuit or business 7#ae7 for a man8 he answered3 ,successful conduct2 7#af7 and to a second question3 ,did he then regard good fortune as an end to be pursued8--,on the contrary1 he answered1 for myself1 ,i consider fortune and conduct to be diametrically opposed4 ,for instance1 to succeed in some desirable course of action without seeking to do so1 ,i hold to be good fortune2 but to do a thing well by dint of learning and practice1 that according to my creed is successful conduct1 7#ag7 and those who make this the serious business of their life seem to me to do well4 7#ae7 ,or1 the noblest study4 7#af7 eupraxia1 eu prattein--to do well1 in the sense both of well or right doing1 and of welfare1 and is accordingly opposed to eutukhia1 mere good luck or success4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,euthyd4 #bha ,b4 7#ag7 ,lit4 well-doing2 and for the ,socratic view see ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cje1 #dja4 ,they are at once the best and the dearest in the sight of ,god 7#ah7 7he went on to say7 who for instance in husbandry do well the things of farming1 or in the art of healing all that belongs to healing1 or in statecraft the affairs of state2 whereas a man who does nothing well--nor well in anything--is 7he added7 neither good for anything nor dear to ,god4 7#ah7 ,or1 most divinely favoured4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,euthyphro1 #g ,a4 ,x ,but indeed1 7#a7 if chance brought him into conversation with any one possessed of an art1 and using it for daily purposes of business1 he never failed to be useful to this kind of person4 ,for instance1 stepping one time into the studio of ,parrhasius 7#b7 the painter1 and getting into conversation with him-- 7#a7 alla men kai444 ,but indeed the sphere of his helpfulness was not circumscribed2 if1 etc4 7#b7 ,for ,parrhasius of ,ephesus1 the son of ,evenor and rival of ,zeuxis1 see ,woltmann and ,woermann1 ,hist4 of ,painting1 p4 #dg foll42 ,cobet1 ,pros4 ,xen4 p4 #ej 7cf4 in particular ,quint4 ,,xii4 x4 #fbg74 ,at the date of conversation 7real or ideal7 he may be supposed to have been a young man4 ,i suppose1 ,parrhasius 7said he71 painting may be defined as a representation of visible objects1 may it not8 7#c7 ,that is to say1 by means of colours and palette you painters represent and reproduce as closely as possible the ups and downs1 lights and shadows1 hard and soft1 rough and smooth surfaces1 the freshness of youth and the wrinkles of age1 do you not8 7#c7 ,reading with ,schneider1 ,l4 ,dind41 etc41 after ,stobaeus1 e graphike estin eikasia1 or if the vulg4 graphike estin e eikasia1 trans4 ,painting is the term applied to a particular representation1 etc4 ,you are right 7he answered71 that is so4 ,soc4 ,further1 in portraying ideal types of beauty1 seeing it is not easy to light upon any one human being who is absolutely devoid of blemish1 you cull from many models the most beautiful traits of each1 and so make your figures appear completely beautiful8 7#d7 7#d7 ,cf4 ,cic4 de ,invent4 ii4 #a ad in4 of ,zeuxis2 ,max4 ,tur4 ,dissert4 #bc1 #c1 ap4 ,schneider ad loc4 ,parrh4 ,yes1 that is how we do4 7#e7 7#e7 ,or1 that is the secret of our creations1 or our art of composition4 ,well1 but stop 7,socrates continued72 do you also pretend to represent in similar perfection the characteristic moods of the soul1 its captivating charm and sweetness1 with its deep wells of love1 its intensity of yearning1 its burning point of passion8 or is all this quite incapable of being depicted8 ,nay 7he answered71 how should a mood be other than inimitable1 ,socrates1 when it possesses neither linear proportion 7#f7 nor colour1 nor any of those qualities which you named just now2 when1 in a word1 it is not even visible8 7#f7 ,lit4 symmetry4 ,cf4 ,plin4 xxxv4 #aj1 primus symmetriam picturae dedit1 etc4 ,soc4 ,well1 but the kindly look of love1 the angry glance of hate at any one1 do find expression in the human subject1 do they not8 7#g7 7#g7 ,or1 the glance of love1 the scowl of hate1 which one directs towards another1 are recognised expressions of human feeling4 ,cf4 the description of ,parrhasius's own portrait of ,demos1 ap4 ,plin4 loc4 cit4 ,parrh4 ,no doubt they do4 ,soc4 ,then this look1 this glance1 at any rate may be imitated in the eyes1 may it not8 ,undoubtedly 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and do anxiety and relief of mind occasioned by the good or evil fortune of those we love both wear the same expression8 ,by no means 7he answered72 at the thought of good we are radiant1 at that of evil a cloud hangs on the brow4 ,soc4 ,then here again are looks with it is possible to represent8 ,parrh4 ,decidedly4 ,soc4 ,furthermore1 as through some chink or crevice1 there pierces through the countenance of a man1 through the very posture of his body as he stands or moves1 a glimpse of his nobility and freedom1 or again of something in him low and grovelling--the calm of self-restraint1 and wisdom1 or the swagger of insolence and vulgarity8 ,you are right 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,then these too may be imitated8 ,no doubt 7he said74 ,soc4 ,and which is the pleasanter type of face to look at1 do you think--one on which is imprinted the characteristics of a beautiful1 good1 and lovable disposition1 or one which bears the impress of what is ugly1 and bad1 and hateful8 7#h7 7#h7 ,for this theory cp4 ,ruskin1 ,mod4 ,p4 ii4 #id foll4 and indeed passim4 ,parrh4 ,doubtless1 ,socrates1 there is a vast distinction between the two4 ,at another time he entered the workshop of the sculptor ,cleiton1 7#i7 and in course of conversation with him said3 7#i7 ,an unknown artist4 ,coraes conj4 ,kleona4 ,cf4 ,plin4 xxxiv4 #ai2 ,paus4 v4 #ag1 vi4 #c4 ,he excelled in portrait statues4 ,see ,jowett1 ,plato1 iv42 ,laws1 p4 #abc4 ,you have a gallery of handsome people here1 7#aj7 ,cleiton1 runners1 and wrestlers1 and boxers1 and pancratiasts--that ,i see and know2 but how do you give the magic touch of life to your creations1 which most of all allures the soul of the beholder through his sense of vision8 7#aj7 ,reading after ,l4 ,dind4 kaloi ous1 or if vulg4 alloious1 translate ,you have a variety of types1 ,cleiton1 not all of one mould1 but runners1 etc42 al4 ,i see quite well how you give the diversity of form to your runners1 etc4 ,as ,cleiton stood perplexed1 and did not answer at once1 ,socrates added3 ,is it by closely imitating the forms of living beings that you succeed in giving that touch of life to your statues8 ,no doubt 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it is1 is it not1 by faithfully copying the various muscular contractions of the body in obedience to the play of gesture and poise1 the wrinklings of flesh and the sprawl of limbs1 the tensions and the relaxations1 that you succeed in making your statues like real beings--make them breathe as people say8 ,cleit4 ,without a doubt4 ,soc4 ,and does not the faithful imitation of the various affections of the body when engaged in any action impart a particular pleasure to the beholder8 ,cleit4 ,i should say so4 ,soc4 ,then the threatenings in the eyes of warriors engaged in battle should be carefully copied1 or again you should imitate the aspect of a conqueror radiant with success8 ,cleit4 ,above all things4 ,soc4 ,it would seem then that the sculptor is called upon to incorporate in his ideal form the workings and energies also of the soul8 ,paying a visit to ,pistias1 7#aa7 the corselet maker1 when that artist showed him some exquisite samples of his work1 ,socrates exclaimed3 7#aa7 ,cf4 ,athen4 iv4 #bj1 where the same artist is referred to apparently as ,piston1 and for the type of person see the ,portrait of a ,tailor by ,moroni in the ,national ,gallery--see ,handbook1 ,edw4 ,t4 ,cook1 p4 #aeb4 ,by ,hera6 a pretty invention this1 ,pistias1 by which you contrive that the corselet should cover the parts of the person which need protection1 and at the same time leave free play to the arms and hands4444 but tell me1 ,pistias 7he added71 why do you ask a higher price for these corselets of yours if they are not stouter or made of costlier material than the others8 ,because1 ,socrates 7he answered71 mine are of much finer proportion4 ,soc4 ,proportion6 ,then how do you make this quality apparent to the customer so as to justify the higher price--by measure or weight8 ,for ,i presume you cannot make them all exactly equal and of one pattern--if you make them fit1 as of course you do8 ,fit indeed6 that ,i most distinctly do 7he answered71 take my word for it3 no use in a corselet without that4 ,but then are not the wearer's bodies themselves 7asked ,socrates7 some well proportioned and others ill8 ,decidedly so 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,then how do you manage to make the corselet well proportioned if it is to fit an ill-proportioned body8 7#ab7 7#ab7 ,or1 how do you make a well-proportioned corselet fit an ill- proportioned body8 how well proportioned8 ,pist4 ,to the same degree exactly as ,i make it fit4 ,what fits is well proportioned4 ,soc4 ,it seems you use the term well-proportioned not in an absolute sense1 but in reference to the wearer1 just as you might describe a shield as well proportioned to the individual it suits2 and so of a military cloak1 and so of the rest of things1 in your terminology8 ,but maybe there is another considerable advantage in this fitting8 ,pist4 ,pray instruct me1 ,socrates1 if you have got an idea4 ,soc4 ,a corselet which fits is less galling by its weight than one which does not fit1 for the latter must either drag from the shoulders with a dead weight or press upon some other part of the body1 and so it becomes troublesome and uncomfortable2 but that which fits1 having its weight distributed partly along the collar-bone and shoulder-blade1 partly over the shoulders and chest1 and partly the back and belly1 feels like another natural integument rather than an extra load to carry4 7#ac7 7#ac7 ,schneider ad loc4 cf ,eur4 ,electr4 #aib1 prosthemata aglaias1 and for the weight cf4 ,aristoph4 ,peace1 #abbd4 ,pist4 ,you have named the very quality which gives my work its exceptional value1 as ,i consider2 still there are customers1 ,i am bound to say1 who look for something else in a corselet--they must have them ornamental or inlaid with gold4 ,for all that 7replied ,socrates71 if they end by purchasing an ill-fitting article1 they only become the proprietors of a curiously-wrought and gilded nuisance1 as it seems to me4 ,but 7he added71 as the body is never in one fixed position1 but is at one time curved1 at another raised erect how can an exactly-modelled corselet fit8 ,pist4 ,it cannot fit at all4 ,you mean 7,socrates continued7 that it is not the exactly-modelled corselet which fits1 but that which does not gall the wearer in the using8 ,pist4 ,there1 ,socrates1 you have hit the very point4 ,i see you understand the matter most precisely4 7#ad7 7#ad7 ,or1 ,there1 ,socrates1 you have hit the very phrase4 ,i could not state the matter more explicitly myself4 ,,xi ,there was once in the city a fair woman named ,theodote4 7#a7 ,she was not only fair1 but ready to consort with any suitor who might win her favour4 ,now it chanced that some one of the company mentioned her1 saying that her beauty beggared description4 ,so fair is she1 he added1 that painters flock to draw her portrait1 to whom1 within the limits of decorum1 she displays the marvels of her beauty4 ,then there is nothing for it but to go and see her1 answered ,socrates1 since to comprehend by hearsay what is beyond description is clearly impossible4 ,then he who had introduced the matter replied3 ,be quick then to follow me2 and on this wise they set off to seek ,theodote4 ,they found her posing to a certain painter2 and they took their stand as spectators4 ,presently the painter had ceased his work2 whereupon ,socrates3 7#a7 ,for ,theodote see ,athen4 v4 #bjj ,f1 xiii4 #egd ,f2 ,liban4 i4 #ehb4 ,some say that it was ,theodote who stood by ,alcibiades to the last1 though there are apparently other better claimants to the honour4 ,plut4 ,alc4 7,clough1 ii4 p4 #ej74 ,do you think1 sirs1 that we ought to thank ,theodote for displaying her beauty to us1 or she us for coming to gaze at her8444 ,it would seem1 would it not1 that if the exhibition of her charms is the more profitable to her1 the debt is on her side2 but if the spectacle of her beauty confers the greater benefit on us1 then we are her debtors4 ,some one answered that was an equitable statement of the case4 ,well then 7he continued71 as far as she is concerned1 the praise we bestow on her is an immediate gain2 and presently1 when we have spread her fame abroad1 she will be further benefited2 but for ourselves the immediate effect on us is a strong desire to touch what we have seen2 by and by1 too1 we shall go away with a sting inside us1 and when we are fairly gone we shall be consumed with longing4 ,consequently it seems that we should do her service and she accept our court4 ,whereupon ,theodote3 ,oh dear6 if that is how the matter stands1 it is ,i who am your debtor for the spectacle4 7#b7 7#b7 ,in reference to the remark of ,socrates above2 or1 have to thank you for coming to look at me4 ,at this point1 seeing that the lady herself was expensively attired1 and that she had with her her mother also1 whose dress and style of attendance 7#c7 were out of the common1 not to speak of the waiting-women--many and fair to look upon1 who presented anything but a forlorn appearance2 while in every respect the whole house itself was sumptuously furnished--,socrates put a question3 7#c7 ,or1 her mother there with her in a dress and general get-up 7therapeia7 which was out of the common4 ,see ,becker1 ,charicles1 p4 #bdg 7,eng4 tr47 ,pray tell me1 ,theodote1 have you an estate in the country8 ,theod4 ,not ,i indeed4 ,soc4 ,then perhaps you possess a house and large revenues along with it8 ,theod4 ,no1 nor yet a house4 ,soc4 ,you are not an employer of labour on a large scale8 7#d7 7#d7 ,lit4 ,you have not 7in your employ7 a body of handicraftsmen of any sort8 ,theod4 ,no1 nor yet an employer of labour4 ,soc4 ,from what source1 then1 do you get your means of subsistence8 7#e7 7#e7 ,or1 ,anglice1 derive your income4 ,theod4 ,my friends are my life and fortune1 when they care to be kind to me4 ,soc4 ,by heaven1 ,theodote1 a very fine property indeed1 and far better worth possessing than a multitude of sheep or goats or cattle4 ,a flock of friends6444 ,but 7he added7 do you leave it to fortune whether a friend lights like a fly on your hand at random1 or do you use any artifice 7#f7 yourself to attract him8 7#f7 ,or1 means and appliances1 machinery4 ,theod4 ,and how might ,i hit upon any artifice to attract him8 ,soc4 ,bless me6 far more naturally than any spider4 ,you know how they capture the creatures on which they live2 7#g7 by weaving webs of gossamer1 is it not8 and woe betide the fly that tumbles into their toils6 ,they eat him up4 7#g7 ,lit4 the creatures on which they live4 ,theod4 ,so then you would counsel me to weave myself some sort of net8 ,soc4 ,why1 surely you do not suppose you are going to ensnare that noblest of all game--a lover1 to wit--in so artless a fashion8 ,do you not see 7to speak of a much less noble sort of game7 what a number of devices are needed to bag a hare8 7#h7 ,the creatures range for their food at night2 therefore the hunter must provide himself with night dogs4 ,at peep of dawn they are off as fast as they can run4 ,he must therefore have another pack of dogs to scent out and discover which way they betake them from their grazing ground to their forms2 7#i7 and as they are so fleet of foot that they run and are out of sight in no time1 he must once again be provided with other fleet-footed dogs to follow their tracks and overtake them2 7#aj7 and as some of them will give even these the slip1 he must1 last of all1 set up nets on the paths at the points of escape1 so that they may fall into the meshes and be caught4 7#h7 ,see the author's own treatise on ,hunting1 vi4 #f foll4 7#i7 ,lit4 from pasture to bed4 7#aj7 ,or1 close at their heels and run them down4 ,see ,hunting2 cf4 ,cyrop4 ,i4 vi4 #dj4 ,theod4 ,and by what like contrivance would you have me catch my lovers8 ,soc4 ,well now6 what if in place of a dog you can get a man who will hunt up your wealthy lover of beauty and discover his lair1 and having found him1 will plot and plan to throw him into your meshes8 ,theod4 ,nay1 what sort of meshes have ,i8 ,soc4 ,one you have1 and a close-folding net it is1 7#aa7 ,i trow2 to wit1 your own person2 and inside it sits a soul that teaches you 7#ab7 with what looks to please and with what words to cheer2 how1 too1 with smiles you are to welcome true devotion1 but to exclude all wantons from your presence4 7#ac7 ,it tells you1 you are to visit your beloved in sickness with solicitude1 and when he has wrought some noble deed you are greatly to rejoice with him2 and to one who passionately cares for you1 you are to make surrender of yourself with heart and soul4 ,the secret of true love ,i am sure you know3 not to love softly merely1 but devotedly4 7#ad7 ,and of this too ,i am sure3 you can convince your lovers of your fondness for them not by lip phrases1 but by acts of love4 7#aa7 ,or1 right well woven4 7#ab7 ,lit4 by which you understand4 7#ac7 ,or1 with what smiles to lie in wait for 7cf4 ',cyrop4' ,,ii4 iv4 #bj2 ,herod4 vi4 #ajd7 the devoted admirer1 and how to banish from your presence the voluptary4 7#ad7 ,or1 that it should be simply soft1 but full of tender goodwill4 ,theod4 ,no1 upon my word1 ,i have none of these devices4 ,soc4 ,and yet it makes all the difference whether you approach a human being in the natural and true way1 since it is not by force certainly that you can either catch or keep a friend4 ,kindness and pleasure are the only means to capture this fearful wild-fowl man and keep him constant4 ,theod4 ,you are right4 ,soc4 ,in the first place you must make such demands only of your well-wisher as he can grant without repentance2 and in the next place you must make requital1 dispensing your favours with a like economy4 ,thus you will best make friends whose love shall last the longest and their generosity know no stint4 7#ae7 ,and for your favours you will best win your friends if you suit your largess to their penury2 for1 mark you1 the sweetest viands presented to a man before he wants them are apt to prove insipid1 or1 to one already sated1 even nauseous2 but create hunger1 and even coarser stuff seems honey-sweet4 7#ae7 ,or1 ,this is the right road to friendship--permanent and open- handed friendship4 ,theod4 ,how then shall ,i create this hunger in the heart of my friends8 ,soc4 ,in the first place you must not offer or make suggestion of your dainties to jaded appetites until satiety has ceased and starvation cries for alms4 ,even then shall you make but a faint suggestion to their want1 with modest converse--like one who would fain bestow a kindness444 and lo6 the vision fades and she is gone--until the very pinch of hunger2 for the same gifts have then a value unknown before the moment of supreme desire4 ,then ,theodote3 ,oh why1 ,socrates1 why are you not by my side 7like the huntsman's assistant7 to help me catch my friends and lovers8 ,soc4 ,that will ,i be in good sooth if only you can woo and win me4 ,theod4 ,how shall ,i woo and win you8 ,soc4 ,seek and you will find means1 if you truly need me4 ,theod4 ,come then in hither and visit me often4 ,and ,socrates1 poking sly fun at his own lack of business occupation1 answered3 ,nay1 ,theodote1 leisure is not a commodity in which ,i largely deal4 ,i have a hundred affairs of my own too1 private or public1 to occupy me2 and then there are my lady-loves1 my dear friends1 who will not suffer me day or night to leave them1 for ever studying to learn love-charms and incantations at my lips4 ,theod4 ,why1 are you really versed in those things1 ,socrates8 ,soc4 ,of course1 or else how is it1 do you suppose1 that ,apollodorus 7#af7 here and ,antisthenes never leave me2 or why have ,cebes and ,simmias come all the way from ,thebes to stay with me8 ,be assured these things cannot happen without diverse love-charms and incantations and magic wheels4 7#af7 ,for ,apollodorus see ,apol4 #bh2 ,plat4 ,symp4 #agb ,a2 ,phaed4 #ei ,a1 #aag ,d4 ,for ,antisthenes see above4 ,for ,cebes and ,simmias see above1 ,i4 ii4 #dh2 ,plat4 ,crit4 #de ,b2 ,phaed4 passim4 ,theod4 ,i wish you would lend me your magic-wheel1 7#ag7 then1 and ,i will set it spinning first of all for you4 7#ag7 ,cf4 ,theocr4 ii4 #ag2 ,schneider ad loc4 ,soc4 ,ah6 but ,i do not wish to be drawn to you4 ,i wish you to come to me4 ,theod4 ,then ,i will come4 ,only1 will you be at home to me8 ,soc4 ,yes1 ,i will welcome you1 unless some one still dearer holds me engaged1 and ,i must needs be not at home4 ,,xii ,seeing one of those who were with him1 a young man1 but feeble of body1 named ,epigenes1 7#a7 he addressed him4 7#a7 ,epigenes1 possibly the son of ,antiphon4 ,see ,plat4 ,apol4 #cc ,e2 ,phaed4 #ei ,b4 ,soc4 ,you have not the athletic appearance of a youth in training1 7#b7 ,epigenes4 7#b7 idiotikos1 lit4 of the person untrained in gymnastics4 ,see ,a4 ,r4 ,cluer ad loc4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 #hci ,e2 ,i4 ii4 #d2 ,,iii4 v4 #ae2 ,symp4 ii4 #ag4 ,and he3 ,that may well be1 seeing ,i am an amateur and not in training4 ,soc4 ,as little of an amateur1 ,i take it1 as any one who ever entered the lists of ,olympia1 unless you are prepared to make light of that contest for life and death against the public foe which the ,athenians will institute when the day comes4 7#c7 ,and yet they are not a few who1 owing to a bad habit of body1 either perish outright in the perils of war1 or are ignobly saved4 ,many are they who for the self-same cause are taken prisoners1 and being taken must1 if it so betide1 endure the pains of slavery for the rest of their days2 or1 after falling into dolorous straits1 7#d7 when they have paid to the uttermost farthing of all1 or may be more than the worth of all1 that they possess1 must drag on a miserable existence in want of the barest necessaries until death release them4 ,many also are they who gain an evil repute through infirmity of body1 being thought to play the coward4 ,can it be that you despise these penalties affixed to an evil habit8 ,do you think you could lightly endure them8 ,far lighter1 ,i imagine1 nay1 pleasant even by comparison1 are the toils which he will undergo who duly cultivates a healthy bodily condition4 ,or do you maintain that the evil habit is healthier1 and in general more useful than the good8 ,do you pour contempt upon those blessings which flow from the healthy state8 ,and yet the very opposite of that which befalls the ill attends the sound condition4 ,does not the very soundness imply at once health and strength8 7#e7 ,many a man with no other talisman than this has passed safely through the ordeal of war2 stepping1 not without dignity1 7#f7 through all its horrors unscathed4 ,many with no other support than this have come to the rescue of friends1 or stood forth as benefactors of their fatherland2 whereby they were thought worthy of gratitude1 and obtained a great renown and received as a recompense the highest honours of the ,state2 to whom is also reserved a happier and brighter passage through what is left to them of life1 and at their death they leave to their children the legacy of a fairer starting-point in the race of life4 7#c7 ,or1 should chance betide4 ,is the author thinking of a life-and- death struggle with ,thebes8 7#d7 e4g4 the prisoners in the ,latomiae4 ,thuc4 vii4 #hg4 7#e7 ,it is almost a proverb--,sound of body and limb is hale and strong4 ,qui valet praevalebit4 7#f7 e4g4 ,socrates himself1 according to ,alcibiades1 ap4 ,plat4 ,symp4 #bba ,b2 and for the word euskhemonos see ,arist4 ,wasps1 #abaj1 like a gentleman2 ,l4 and ,s42 ,cyr4 ,i4 iii4 #h2 ,aristot4 ,eth4 ,n4 i4 #aj1 #ac1 gracefully4 ,because our city does not practise military training in public1 7#g7 that is no reason for neglecting it in private1 but rather a reason for making it a foremost care4 ,for be you assured that there is no contest of any sort1 nor any transaction1 in which you will be the worse off for being well prepared in body2 and in fact there is nothing which men do for which the body is not a help4 ,in every demand1 therefore1 which can be laid upon the body it is much better that it should be in the best condition2 since1 even where you might imagine the claims upon the body to be slightest--in the act of reasoning--who does not know the terrible stumbles which are made through being out of health8 ,it suffices to say that forgetfulness1 and despondency1 and moroseness1 and madness take occasion often of ill-health to visit the intellectual faculties so severely as to expel all knowledge 7#h7 from the brain4 ,but he who is in good bodily plight has large security4 ,he runs no risk of incurring any such catastrophe through ill-health at any rate2 he has the expectation rather that a good habit must procure consequences the opposite to those of an evil habit2 7#i7 and surely to this end there is nothing a man in his senses would not undergo4444 ,it is a base thing for a man to wax old in careless self-neglect before he has lifted up his eyes and seen what manner of man he was made to be1 in the full perfection of bodily strength and beauty4 ,but these glories are withheld from him who is guilty of self-neglect1 for they are not wont to blaze forth unbidden4 7#aj7 7#g7 ,cf4 ,pol4 ,ath4 i4 #ac2 and above1 ,,iii4 v4 #ae4 7#h7 ,or1 whole branches of knowledge 7tas epistemas74 7#i7 ,or1 he may well hope to be insured by his good habit against the evils attendant on its opposite4 7#aj7 ,or1 to present themselves spontaneously4 ,,xii ,once when some one was in a fury of indignation because he had bidden a passer-by good-day and the salutation was not returned1 ,socrates said3 ,it is enough to make one laugh6 ,if you met a man in a wretched condition of body1 you would not fall into a rage2 but because you stumble upon a poor soul somewhat boorishly disposed1 you feel annoyed4 ,to the remark of another who complained that he did not take his food with pleasure1 he said3 ,acumenus 7#a7 has a good prescription for that4 ,and when the other asked3 ,and what may that be8 ,to stop eating1 he said4 ,on the score of pleasure1 economy1 and health1 total abstinence has much in its favour4 7#b7 7#a7 ,a well-known physician4 ,see ,plat4 ,phaedr4 #bbg ,a1 #bfi ,a2 ,symp4 #agf ,b4 ,a similar story is told of ,dr4 ,abernethy1 ,i think4 7#b7 ,lit4 he would live a happier1 thriftier1 and healthier life1 if he stopped eating4 ,and when some one else lamented that the drinking-water in his house was hot1 he replied3 ,then when you want a warm bath you will not have to wait4 ,the ,other4 ,but for bathing purposes it is cold4 ,soc4 ,do you find that your domestics seem to mind drinking it or washing in it8 ,the ,other4 ,quite the reverse2 it is a constant marvel to me how contentedly they use it for either purpose4 ,soc4 ,which is hotter to the taste--the water in your house or the hot spring in the temple of ,asclepius8 7#c7 7#c7 ,in the ,hieron at ,epidauros probably4 ,see ,baedeker1 ,greece1 p4 #bdj foll4 ,the ,other4 ,the water in the temple of ,asclepius4 ,soc4 ,and which is colder for bathing--yours or the cold spring in the cave of ,amphiaraus8 7#d7 7#d7 ,possibly at ,oropos4 ,cf4 ,paus4 i4 #cd4 #c4 ,the ,other4 ,the water in the cave of ,amphiaraus4 ,soc4 ,then please to observe3 if you do not take care1 they will set you down as harder to please than a domestic servant or an invalid4 7#e7 7#e7 i4e4 the least and the most fastidious of men4 ,a man had administered a severe whipping to the slave in attendance on him1 and when ,socrates asked3 ,why he was so wroth with his own serving-man8 excused himself on the ground that the fellow was a lazy1 gourmandising1 good-for-nothing dolt--fonder of money than of work4 ,to which ,socrates3 ,did it ever strike you to consider which of the two in that case the more deserves a whipping--the master or the man8 ,when some one was apprehending the journey to ,olympia1 ,why are you afraid of the long distance8 he asked4 ,here at home you spend nearly all your day in taking walks4 7#f7 ,well1 on your road to ,olympia you will take a walk and breakfast1 and then you will take another walk and dine1 and go to bed4 ,do you not see1 if you take and tack together five or six days' length of walks1 and stretch them out in one long line1 it will soon reach from ,athens to ,olympia8 ,i would recommend you1 however1 to set off a day too soon rather than a day too late4 ,to be forced to lengthen the day's journey beyond a reasonable amount may well be a nuisance2 but to take one day's journey beyond what is necessary is pure relaxation4 ,make haste to start1 ,i say1 and not while on the road4 7#g7 7#f7 peripateis1 promenading up and down4 7#g7 ,festina lente--that is your motto4 ,when some one else remarked he was utterly prostrated after a long journey1 ,socrates asked him3 ,had he had any baggage to carry8 ,not ,i1 replied the complainer2 only my cloak4 ,soc4 ,were you travelling alone1 or was your man-servant with you8 ,he4 ,yes1 ,i had my man4 ,soc4 ,empty-handed1 or had he something to carry8 ,he4 ,of course2 carrying my rugs and other baggage4 ,soc4 ,and how did he come off on the journey8 ,he4 ,better than ,i did myself1 ,i take it4 ,soc4 ,well1 but now suppose you had had to carry his baggage1 what would your condition have been like8 ,he4 ,sorry enough1 ,i can tell you2 or rather1 ,i could not have carried it at all4 ,soc4 ,what a confession6 ,fancy being capable of so much less toil than a poor slave boy6 ,does that sound like the perfection of athletic training8 ,,xiv ,on the occasion of a common dinner-party 7#a7 where some of the company would present themselves with a small1 and others with a large supply of viands1 ,socrates would bid the servants 7#b7 throw the small supplies into the general stock1 or else to help each of the party to a share all round4 ,thus the grand victuallers were ashamed in the one case not to share in the common stock1 and in the other not to throw in their supplies also4 7#c7 ,accordingly in went the grand supplies into the common stock4 ,and now1 being no better off than the small contributors1 they soon ceased to cater for expensive delicacies4 7#a7 ,for the type of entertainment see ,becker1 ,charicles1 p4 #cae 7,eng4 tr47 7#b7 ,the boy4 7#c7 ,or1 were ashamed not to follow suit by sharing in the common stock and contributing their own portion4 ,at a supper-party one member of the company1 as ,socrates chanced to note1 had put aside the plain fare and was devoting himself to certain dainties4 7#d7 ,a discussion was going on about names and definitions1 and the proper applications of terms to things4 7#e7 ,whereupon ,socrates1 appealing to the company3 ,can we explain why we call a man a 'dainty fellow'8 ,what is the particular action to which the term applies8 7#f7--since every one adds some dainty to his food when he can get it4 7#g7 ,but we have not quite hit the definition yet1 ,i think4 ,are we to be called dainty eaters because we like our bread buttered8 7#h7 7#d7 ,for the distinction between sitos and opson see ,plat4 ,rep4 #cgb ,c4 7#e7 ,or1 ,the conversation had fallen upon names3 what is the precise thing denoted under such and such a term8 ,define the meaning of so and so4 7#f7 opsophagos opson 7or relish7 eater1 and so a gourmand or epicure2 but how to define a gourmand8 7#g7 ,lit4 takes some opson 7relish7 to his sitos 7food74 7#h7 ,lit4 simply for that 7sc4 the taking of some sort of opson4 ,for epi touto cf4 ,plat4 ,soph4 #bah ,c2 ,parmen4 #adg ,d47 ,no6 hardly6 7some member of the company replied74 ,soc4 ,well1 but now suppose a man confine himself to eating venison or other dainty without any plain food at all1 not as a matter of training1 7#i7 but for the pleasure of it3 has such a man earned the title8 ,the rest of the world would have a poor chance against him1 7#aj7 some one answered4 ,or1 interposed another1 what if the dainty dishes he devours are out of all proportion to the rest of his meal--what of him8 7#aa7 7#i7 ,lit4 opson 7relish7 by itself1 not for the sake of training1 etc4 ,the ,english reader wil bear in mind that a raw beefsteak or other meat prescribed by the gymnastic trainer in preference to farinaceous food 7sitos7 would be opson4 7#aj7 ,or1 more lit4 ,hardly any one could deserve the appellation better4 7#aa7 ,lit4 and what of the man who eats much opson on the top of a little 7sitos78 epesthion follows up one course by another1 like the man in a fragment of ,euripides1 ,incert4 #ih3 kreasi boeiois khlora suk' epesthien1 who followed up his beefsteak with a garnish of green figs4 ,soc4 ,he has established a very fair title at any rate to the appellation1 and when the rest of the world pray to heaven for a fine harvest3 ,may our corn and oil increase6 he may reasonably ejaculate1 ,may my fleshpots multiply6 ,at this last sally the young man1 feeling that the conversation set somewhat in his direction1 did not desist indeed from his savoury viands1 but helped himself generously to a piece of bread4 ,socrates was all-observant1 and added3 ,keep an eye on our friend yonder1 you others next him1 and see fair play between the sop and the sauce4 7#ab7 7#ab7 ,lit4 see whether he will make a relish of the staple or a staple of the relish 7butter his bread or bread his butter74 ,another time1 seeing one of the company using but one sop of bread 7#ac7 to test several savoury dishes1 he remarked3 ,could there be a more extravagant style of cookery1 or more murderous to the dainty dishes themselves1 than this wholesale method of taking so many dishes together8--why1 bless me1 twenty different sorts of seasoning at one swoop6 7#ad7 ,first of all he mixes up actually more ingredients than the cook himself prescribes1 which is extravagant2 and secondly1 he has the audacity to commingle what the chef holds incongruous1 whereby if the cooks are right in their method he is wrong in his1 and consequently the destroyer of their art4 ,now is it not ridiculous first to procure the greatest virtuosi to cook for us1 and then without any claim to their skill to take and alter their procedure8 ,but there is a worse thing in store for the bold man who habituates himself to eat a dozen dishes at once3 when there are but few dishes served1 out of pure habit he will feel himself half starved1 whilst his neighbour1 accustomed to send his sop down by help of a single relish1 will feast merrily1 be the dishes never so few4 7#ac7 psomos1 a sop or morsel of bread 7cf4 psomion1 ,n4 ,t41 in mod4 ,greek bread74 7#ad7 ,huckleberry ,finn 7p4 #b of that young person's ,adventures7 propounds the rationale of the system3 ,in a barrel of odds and ends it is different2 things get mixed up1 and the juice kind of swaps around1 and the things go better4 ,he had a saying that euokheisthai1 to make good cheer1 7#ae7 was in ,attic parlance a synonym for eating1 and the affix eu 7the attributive good7 connoted the eating of such things as would not trouble soul or body1 and were not far to seek or hard to find4 ,so that to make good cheer in his vocabulary applied to a modest and well-ordered style of living4 7#af7 7#ae7 euokheisthai1 cf4 ,cyrop4 ,,iv4 v4 #g2 ,pol4 ,ath4 ii4 #i2 ,kuhner cf4 ,eustah4 ad ,il4 ii4 p4 #bab1 #cg1 ',akhaioi ten trophen okhen legousin oxutonos4 ,athen4 viii4 #cfc ,b4 ,see ,hipparch1 viii4 #d1 of horses4 ,cf4 ,arist4 ,h4 ,a4 viii4 #f4 7#af7 ,see ,symp4 vi4 #g2 and for similar far-fetched etymologies1 ,plat4 ,crat4 passim4 ,,book ,,iv ,i ,such was ,socrates2 so helpful under all circumstances and in every way that no observer1 gifted with ordinary sensibility1 could fail to appreciate the fact1 that to be with ,socrates1 and to spend long time in his society 7no matter where or what the circumstances71 was indeed a priceless gain4 ,even the recollection of him1 when he was no longer present1 was felt as no small benefit by those who had grown accustomed to be with him1 and who accepted him4 ,nor indeed was he less helpful to his acquaintance in his lighter than in his graver moods4 ,let us take as an example that saying of his1 so often on his lips3 ,i am in love with so and so2 and all the while it was obvious the going-forth of his soul was not towards excellence of body in the bloom of beauty1 but rather towards faculties of the soul unfolding in virtue4 7#a7 ,and these good natures he detected by certain tokens3 a readiness to learn that to which the attention was directed2 a power of retaining in the memory the lessons learnt2 and a passionate predilection for those studies in particular which serve to good administration of a house or of a state1 7#b7 and in general to the proper handling of man and human affairs4 ,such beings1 he maintained1 needed only to be educated 7#c7 to become not only happy themselves and happy administrators of their private households1 but to be capable of rendering other human beings as states or individuals happy also4 7#a7 ,or1 not excellence of body in respect of beauty1 but of the soul as regards virtue2 and this good natural disposition might be detected by the readiness of its possessor to learn1 etc4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,rep4 #ece ,b4 7#b7 ,cf4 above1 ,i4 i4 #g4 7#c7 ,or1 ,a person of this type would1 if educated1 not only prove a fortune-favoured individual himself and1 etc4 ,al4 ,kuhner1 ,eos1 qui ita instituti sunt1 ut tales sint4 ,he had indeed a different way of dealing with different kinds of people4 7#d7 ,those who thought they had good natural ability and despised learning he instructed that the most highly-gifted nature stands most in need of training and education2 7#e7 and he would point out how in the case of horses it is just the spirited and fiery thoroughbred which1 if properly broken in as a colt1 will develop into a serviceable and superb animal1 but if left unbroken will turn out utterly intractable and good for nothing4 ,or take the case of dogs3 a puppy exhibiting that zest for toil and eagerness to attack wild creatures which are the marks of high breeding1 7#f7 will1 if well brought up1 prove excellent for the chase or for any other useful purpose2 but neglect his education and he will turn out a stupid1 crazy brute1 incapable of obeying the simplest command4 ,it is just the same with human beings2 here also the youth of best natural endowments--that is to say1 possessing the most robust qualities of spirit and a fixed determination to carry out whatever he has laid his hand to--will1 if trained and taught what it is right to do1 prove a superlatively good and useful man4 ,he achieves1 in fact1 what is best upon the grandest scale4 ,but leave him in boorish ignorance untrained1 and he will prove not only very bad but very mischievous1 7#g7 and for this reason1 that lacking the knowledge to discern what is right to do1 he will frequently lay his hand to villainous practices2 whilst the very magnificence and vehemence of his character render it impossible either to rein him in or to turn him aside from his evil courses4 ,hence in his case also his achievements are on the grandest scale but of the worst4 7#h7 7#d7 ,or1 ,his method of attack was not indeed uniformly the same4 ,it varied with the individual4 7#e7 ,or1 ,if any one was disposed to look down upon learning and study in reliance upon his own natural ability1 he tried to lesson him that it is just the highly-gifted nature which stands1 etc4 ,see ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cig4 7#f7 ,cf4 ,aristot4 ,h4 ,a4 ix4 #a2 and ,hunting1 iii4 #aa4 7#g7 ,or1 and the same man may easily become a master villain of the most dangerous sort4 7#h7 ,kuhner ad loc4 after ,fr4 ,hermann cf4 ,plato4 ,crito1 #dd ,e2 ,hipp4 min4 #cge ,e2 ,rep4 vi4 #dia ,e2 ,gorg4 #ebf ,a2 ,polit4 #cjc ,a4 ,or to take the type of person so eaten up with the pride of riches that he conceives himself dispensed from any further need of education--since it is money makes the man1 and his wealth will amply suffice him to carry out his desires and to win honours from admiring humanity4 7#i7 ,socrates would bring such people to their senses by pointing out the folly of supposing that without instruction it was possible to draw the line of demarcation 7#aj7 between what is gainful and what is hurtful in conduct2 and the further folly of supposing that1 apart from such discrimination1 a man could help himself by means of wealth alone to whatever he liked or find the path of expediency plain before him2 and was it not the veriest simplicity to suppose that1 without the power of labouring profitably1 a man can either be doing well or be in any sort of way sufficiently equipped for the battle of life8 and again1 the veriest simplicity to suppose that by mere wealth without true knowledge it was possible either to purchase a reputation for some excellence1 or without such reputation to gain distinction and celebrity8 7#i7 ,or1 and to be honoured by mankind4 7#aj7 ,or1 that without learning the distinction it was possible to distinguish between1 etc4 ,,ii ,or to come to a third kind--the class of people who are persuaded that they have received the best education1 and are proud of their wisdom3 his manner of dealing with these ,i will now describe4 ,euthydemus 7#a7 the beautiful had 7,socrates was given to understand7 collected a large library1 consisting of the most celebrated poets and philosophers1 7#b7 by help of which he already believed himself to be more than a match for his fellows in wisdom1 and indeed might presently expect to out-top them all in capacity of speech and action4 7#c7 ,at first1 as ,socrates noted1 the young man by reason of his youth had not as yet set foot in the agora1 7#d7 but if he had anything to transact1 his habit was to seat himself in a saddler's shop hard by4 ,accordingly to this same saddler's shop ,socrates betook himself with some of those who were with him4 ,and first the question was started by some one3 ,was it through consorting with the wise1 7#e7 or by his own unaided talent1 that ,themistocles came so to surpass his fellow-citizens that when the services of a capable man were needed the eyes of the whole community instinctively turned to him8 ,socrates1 with a view to stirring 7#f7 ,euthydemus1 answered3 ,there was certainly an ingenuous simplicity in the belief that superiority in arts of comparatively little worth could only be attained by aid of qualified teachers1 but that the leadership of the state1 the most important concern of all1 was destined to drop into the lap of anybody1 no matter whom1 like an accidental windfall4 7#g7 7#a7 ,euthydemus1 the son of ,diocles perhaps4 ,see ,plat4 ,symp4 #bbb ,b1 and ,jowet ad loc42 ,cobet1 ,prosop4 ,xen4 s4n42 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cgb foll4 ,for ton kalon cf4 ,phaedr4 #bgh ,e1 ,isocrates the fair4 ,for the whole chapter cf4 ,plat4 ,alc4 i42 ,lys4 #baj ,e4 ,see above1 ,mem4 ,i4 ii4 #bi2 ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 ch4 x4 passim4 7#b7 ,lit4 sophists4 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 p4 #dhj1 note4 ,for private libraries see ,becker1 ,char4 p4 #bgb foll4 7,eng4 tr47 7#c7 ,see ,hipparch1 i4 #bd2 ,cyrop4 ,v4 v4 #df4 7#d7 ,see above1 ,,iii4 vi4 #a2 ,schneid4 cf4 ,isocr4 ,areop4 #adi ,c4 7#e7 ,cf4 ,soph4 fr4 #ab1 sophoi turannoi ton sophon xunousia4 7#f7 ,l4 and ,s4 cf4 ,plat4 ,lys4 #bbc ,a2 ,rep4 #cbi ,b3 ,wishing to draw him out4 7#g7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,alc4 i4 #aah ,c3 ,and ,pericles is said not to have got his wisdom by the light of nature1 but to have associated with several of the philosophers 7,jowett74 ,on a subsequent occasion1 ,euthydemus being present1 though1 as was plain to see1 somewhat disposed to withdraw from the friendly concourse1 7#h7 as if he would choose anything rather than appear to admire ,socrates on the score of wisdom1 the latter made the following remarks4 7#h7 sunedrias1 the council4 ,soc4 ,it is clear from his customary pursuits1 is it not1 sirs1 that when our friend ,euthydemus here is of full age1 and the state propounds some question for solution1 he will not abstain from offering the benefit of his advice8 ,one can imagine the pretty exordium to his parliamentary speeches which1 in his anxiety not to be thought to have learnt anything from anybody1 he has ready for the occasion4 7#i7 ,clearly at the outset he will deliver himself thus3 ,men of ,athens1 ,i have never at any time learnt anything from anybody2 nor1 if ,i have ever heard of any one as being an able statesman1 well versed in speech and capable of action1 have ,i sought to come across him individually4 ,i have not so much as been at pains to provide myself with a teacher from amongst those who have knowledge2 7#aj7 on the contrary1 ,i have persistently avoided1 ,i will not say learning from others1 but the very faintest suspicion of so doing4 ,however1 anything that occurs to me by the light of nature ,i shall be glad to place at your disposal4444 ,how appropriate 7#aa7 would such a preface sound on the lips of any one seeking1 say1 the office of state physician1 7#ab7 would it not8 ,how advantageously he might begin an address on this wise3 ,men of ,athens1 ,i have never learnt the art of healing by help of anybody1 nor have ,i sought to provide myself with any teacher among medical men4 ,indeed1 to put it briefly1 ,i have been ever on my guard not only against learning anything from the profession1 but against the very notion of having studied medicine at all4 ,if1 however1 you will be so good as to confer on me this post1 ,i promise ,i will do my best to acquire skill by experimenting on your persons4 ,every one present laughed at the exordium 7and there the matter dropped74 7#i7 ,or1 the pretty exordium444 now in course of composition4 ,he must at all hazards avoid the suspicion of having picked up any crumb of learning from anybody2 how can he help therefore beginning his speech thus8 7#aj7 ,or1 scientific experts4 7#aa7 ,al4 ,just as if one seeking the office of state physician were to begin with a like exordium4 armoseie it would be consistent 7with what has gone before74 7#ab7 ,schneider cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 iv4 #gbj ,a2 ,gorg4 #def ,a2 and for the parish doctor1 ,polit4 #bei ,a2 ,arist4 ,acharn4 #ajcj4 ,presently1 when it became apparent that ,euthydemus had got so far that he was disposed to pay attention to what was said1 though he was still at pains not to utter a sound himself1 as if he hoped by silence to attach to himself some reputation for sagacity1 ,socrates1 wishing to cure him of that defect1 proceeded4 ,soc4 ,is it not surprising that people anxious to learn to play the harp or the flute1 or to ride1 or to become proficient in any like accomplishment1 are not content to work unremittingly in private by themselves at whatever it is in which they desire to excel1 but they must sit at the feet of the best-esteemed teachers1 doing all things and enduring all things for the sake of following the judgment of those teachers in everything1 as though they themselves could not otherwise become famous2 whereas1 among those who aspire to become eminent politically as orators and statesmen1 7#ac7 there are some who cannot see why they should not be able to do all that politics demand1 at a moment's notice1 by inspiration as it were1 without any preliminary pains or preparations whatever8 ,and yet it would appear that the latter concerns must be more difficult of achievement than the former1 in proportion as there are more competitors in the field but fewer who reach the goal of their ambition1 which is as much as to say that a more sustained effort of attention is needed on the part of those who embark upon the sea of politics than is elsewhere called for4 7#ac7 ,or1 more lit4 powerful in speech and action within the sphere of politics4 ,such were the topics on which ,socrates was wont in the early days of their association to dilate in the hearing of ,euthydemus2 but when the philosopher perceived that the youth not only could tolerate the turns of the discussion more readily but was now become a somewhat eager listener1 he went to the saddler's shop alone1 7#ad7 and when ,euthydemus was seated by his side the following conversation took place4 7#ad7 ,the question arises3 how far is the conversation historical or imaginary8 ,soc4 ,pray tell me1 ,euthydemus1 is it really true what people tell me1 that you have made a large collection of the writings of the wise1 as they are called8 7#ae7 7#ae7 ,or1 have collected several works of our classical authors and philosophers4 ,euthydemus answered3 ,quite true1 ,socrates1 and ,i mean to go on collecting until ,i possess all the books ,i can possibly lay hold of4 ,soc4 ,by ,hera6 ,i admire you for wishing to possess treasures of wisdom rather than of gold and silver1 which shows that you do not believe gold and silver to be the means of making men better1 but that the thoughts 7#af7 of the wise alone enrich with virtue their possessions4 7#af7 ,lit4 gnomes1 maxims1 sententiae4 ,cf4 ,aristot4 ,rhet4 ii4 #ba4 ,and ,euthydemus was glad when he heard that saying1 for1 thought he to himself1 ,in the eyes of ,socrates ,i am on the high road to the acquisition of wisdom4 ,but the latter1 perceiving him to be pleased with the praise1 continued4 ,soc4 ,and what is it in which you desire to excel1 ,euthydemus1 that you collect books8 ,and when ,euthydemus was silent1 considering what answer he should make1 ,socrates added3 ,possibly you want to be a great doctor8 ,why1 the prescriptions 7#ag7 of the ,pharmacopoeia would form a pretty large library by themselves4 7#ag7 suggrammata1 medical treatises4 ,see ,aristot4 ,eth4 x4 #i1 #ba4 ,no1 indeed1 not ,i6 7answered ,euthydemus74 ,soc4 ,then do you wish to be an architect8 ,that too implies a man of well-stored wit and judgment4 7#ah7 7#ah7 ,or1 ,to be that implies a considerable store of well-packed wisdom4 ,i have no such ambition 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,well1 do you wish to be a mathematician1 like ,theodorus8 7#ai7 7#ai7 ,of ,cyrene 7cf4 ,plat4 ,theaet47 taught ,plato4 ,diog4 ,laert4 ii4 #h1 #ai4 ,euth4 ,no1 nor yet a mathematician4 ,soc4 ,then do you wish to be an astronomer8 7#bj7 or 7as the youth signified dissent7 possibly a rhapsodist8 7#ba7 7he asked71 for ,i am told you have the entire works of ,homer in your possession4 7#bb7 7#bj7 ,cf4 below1 ,,iv4 vii4 #d4 7#ba7 ,see ,symp4 iii4 #f2 ,plat4 ,ion4 7#bb7 ,see ,jowett1 ,plato1 i4 #bbi2 ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #dee4 ,nay1 ,god forbid6 not ,i6 7ejaculated the youth74 ,rhapsodists have a very exact acquaintance with epic poetry1 ,i know1 of course2 but they are empty-pated creatures enough themselves4 7#bc7 7#bc7 ,or1 are simply perfect in the art of reciting epic poetry1 but are apt to be the veriest simpletons themselves4 ,at last ,socrates said3 ,can it be1 ,euthydemus1 that you are an aspirant to that excellence through which men become statesmen and administrators fit to rule and apt to benefit 7#bd7 the rest of the world and themselves8 7#bd7 ,or1 statesmen1 and economists1 and rules1 and benefactors of the rest of the world and themselves4 ,yes 7replied he71 that is the excellence ,i desire--beyond measure4 ,upon my word 7said ,socrates71 then you have indeed selected as the object of your ambition the noblest of virtues and the greatest of the arts1 for this is the property of kings1 and is entitled royal2 but 7he continued7 have you considered whether it is possible to excel in these matters without being just and upright8 7#be7 7#be7 ,just1 dikaios upright1 righteous4 ,justice1 dikaiosune social uprightness righteousness1 ,n4,t4 ,to quote a friend3 ,the ,greek dikaios combines the active dealing out of justice with the self-reflective idea of preserving justice in our conduct1 which is what we mean by 'upright4' ,euth4 ,certainly ,i have1 and ,i say that without justice and uprightness it is impossible to be a good citizen4 ,no doubt 7replied ,socrates7 you have accomplished that initial step8 ,euth4 ,well1 ,socrates1 ,i think ,i could hold my own against all comers as an upright man4 ,and have upright men 7continued ,socrates7 their distinctive and appropriate works like those of carpenters or shoe-makers8 ,euth4 ,to be sure they have4 ,soc4 ,and just as the carpenter is able to exhibit his works and products1 the righteous man should be able to expound and set forth his1 should he not8 ,i see 7replied ,euthydemus7 you are afraid ,i cannot expound the works of righteousness6 ,why1 bless me6 of course ,i can1 and the works of unrighteousness into the bargain1 since there are not a few of that sort within reach of eye and ear every day4 ,shall we then 7proceeded ,socrates7 write the letter ,r on this side1 7#bf7 and on that side the letter ,w2 and then anything that appears to us to be the product of righteousness we will place to the ,r account1 and anything which appears to be the product of wrong-doing and iniquity to the account of ,w8 7#bf7 ,the letter ,r 7to stand for ,right1 ,righteous1 ,upright1 ,just74 ,the letter ,w 7to stand for ,wrong1 ,unrighteous1 ,unjust74 ,by all means do so 7he answered71 if you think that it assists matters4 ,accordingly ,socrates drew the letters1 as he had suggested1 and continued4 ,soc4 ,lying exists among men1 does it not8 ,euth4 ,certainly4 ,to which side of the account then shall we place it8 7he asked74 ,euth4 ,clearly on the side of wrong and injustice4 ,soc4 ,deceit too is not uncommon8 ,euth4 ,by no means4 ,soc4 ,to which side shall we place deceit8 ,euth4 ,deceit clearly on the side of wrong4 ,soc4 ,well1 and chicanery 7#bg7 or mischief of any sort8 7#bg7 ,reading to kakourgein 7 furari1 ,sturz72 al4 kleptein1 ,stob4 ,euth4 ,that too4 ,soc4 ,and the enslavement of free-born men8 7#bh7 7#bh7 ,or1 the kidnapping of men into slavery4 to andrapodizesthai the reduction of a free-born man to a state of slavery4 ,slavery itself 7douleia7 being regarded as the normal condition of a certain portion of the human race and not in itself immoral4 ,euth4 ,that too4 ,soc4 ,and we cannot allow any of these to lie on the ,r side of the account1 to the side of right and justice1 can we1 ,euthydemus8 ,it would be monstrous 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,very good4 ,but supposing a man to be elected general1 and he succeeds in enslaving an unjust1 wicked1 and hostile state1 are we to say that he is doing wrong8 ,euth4 ,by no means4 ,soc4 ,shall we not admit that he is doing what is right8 ,euth4 ,certainly4 ,soc4 ,again1 suppose he deceives the foe while at war with them8 ,euth4 ,that would be all fair and right also4 ,soc4 ,or steals and pillages their property8 would he not be doing what is right8 ,euth4 ,certainly2 when you began ,i thought you were limiting the question to the case of friends4 ,soc4 ,so then everything which we set down on the side of ,wrong will now have to be placed to the credit of ,right8 ,euth4 ,apparently4 ,soc4 ,very well then1 let us so place them2 and please1 let us make a new definition--that while it is right to do such things to a foe1 it is wrong to do them to a friend1 but in dealing with the latter it behoves us to be as straightforward as possible4 7#bi7 7#bi7 ,or1 an absolutely straightforward course is necessary4 ,i quite assent 7replied ,euthydemus74 ,so far so good 7remarked ,socrates72 but if a general1 seeing his troops demoralised1 were to invent a tale to the effect that reinforcements were coming1 and by means of this false statement should revive the courage of his men1 to which of the two accounts shall we place that act of fraud8 7#cj7 7#cj7 ,cf4 ,hell4 ,,iv4 iii4 #aj2 ,cyrop4 ,i4 vi4 #ca4 ,on the side of right1 to my notion 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,or again1 if a man chanced to have a son ill and in need of medicine1 which the child refused to take1 and supposing the father by an act of deceit to administer it under the guise of something nice to eat1 and by service of that lie to restore the boy to health1 to which account shall we set down this fraud8 ,euth4 ,in my judgment it too should be placed to the same account4 ,soc4 ,well1 supposing you have a friend in deplorably low spirits1 and you are afraid he will make away with himself--accordingly you rob him of his knife or other such instrument3 to which side ought we to set the theft8 ,euth4 ,that too must surely be placed to the score of right behaviour4 ,soc4 ,i understand you to say that a straightforward course is not in every case to be pursued even in dealing with friends8 ,heaven forbid6 7the youth exclaimed74 ,if you will allow me1 ,i rescind my former statement4 7#ca7 7#ca7 ,see above1 ,i4 ii4 #dd 7anatithemai74 ,soc4 ,allow you6 ,of course you may--anything rather than make a false entry on our lists4444 ,but there is just another point we ought not to leave uninvestigated4 ,let us take the case of deceiving a friend to his detriment3 which is the more wrongful--to do so voluntarily or unintentionally8 ,euth4 ,really1 ,socrates1 ,i have ceased to believe in my own answers1 for all my former admissions and conceptions seem to me other than ,i first supposed them4 7#cb7 ,still1 if ,i may hazard one more opinion1 the intentional deceiver1 ,i should say1 is worse than the involuntary4 7#cb7 ,or1 all my original positions seem to me now other than ,i first conceived them2 or1 everything ,i first asserted seems now to be twisted topsy-turvy4 ,soc4 ,and is it your opinion that there is a lore and science of ,right and ,justice just as there is of letters and grammar8 7#cc7 7#cc7 mathesis kai episteme tou dikaiou--a doctrine and a knowledge of the ,just4 ,euth4 ,that is my opinion4 ,soc4 ,and which should you say was more a man of letters 7#cd7--;he who intentionally misspells or misreads1 or he who does so unconsciously8 7#cd7 ,or1 more grammatical2 the better grammarian4 ,euth4 ,he who does so intentionally1 ,i should say1 because he can spell or read correctly whenever he chooses4 ,soc4 ,then the voluntary misspeller may be a lettered person1 but the involuntary offender is an illiterate8 7#ce7 7#ce7 ,or1 ,in fact1 he who sins against the lore of grammer intentionally may be a good grammarian and a man of letters1 but he who does so involuntarily is illiterate and a bad grammarian8 ,euth4 ,true1 he must be4 ,i do not see how to escape from that conclusion4 ,soc4 ,and which of the two knows what is right--he who intentionally lies and deceives1 or he who lies and deceives unconsciously8 7#cf7 7#cf7 ,or1 ,soc4 ,and does he who lies and deceives with intent know what is right rather than he who does either or both unconsciously8 ,euth4 ,clearly he does4 ,euth4 ,the intentional and conscious liar clearly4 ,soc4 ,well then1 your statement is this3 on the one hand1 the man who has the knowledge of letters is more lettered than he who has no such knowledge8 7#cg7 7#cg7 ,or1 ,soc4 ,it is a fair inference1 is it not1 that he who has the episteme of grammar is more grammatical than he who has no such episteme8 ,euth4 ,yes4 ,soc4 ,and he who has the episteme of things rightful is more righteous than he who lacks the episteme8 ,see ,plat4 ,hipp4 min42 ,arist4 ,eth4 ,eud4 ,,vi4 v4 #g4 ,euth4 ,yes4 ,soc4 ,and1 on the other1 he who has the knowledge of what is right is more righteous than he who lacks that knowledge8 ,euth4 ,i suppose it is1 but for the life of me ,i cannot make head or tail of my own admission4 7#ch7 7#ch7 ,lit4 ,apparently2 but ,i appear to myself to be saying this also1 heaven knows how4 ,see ,jowett1 ,plato1 ii4 p4 #daf 7ed4 #b74 ,soc4 ,well 7look at it like this74 ,suppose a man to be anxious to speak the truth1 but he is never able to hold the same language about a thing for two minutes together4 ,first he says3 ,the road is towards the east1 and then he says1 ,no1 it's towards the west2 or1 running up a column of figures1 now he makes the product this1 and again he makes it that1 now more1 now less--what do you think of such a man8 ,euth4 ,heaven help us6 clearly he does not know what he thought he knew4 ,soc4 ,and you know the appellation given to certain people--slavish1 7#ci7 or1 little better than a slave8 7#ci7 andropododeis1 which has the connotation of mental dulness1 and a low order of intellect1 cf4 boorish1 rustic1 loutish1 7pariah1 conceivably74 ,slavish1 servile1 with us connote moral rather than intellectual deficiency1 ,i suppose4 ,hence it is impossible to preserve the humour of the ,socratic argument4 ,see ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #ajg4 ,euth4 ,i do4 ,soc4 ,is it a term suggestive of the wisdom or the ignorance of those to whom it is applied8 ,euth4 ,clearly of their ignorance4 ,soc4 ,ignorance1 for instance1 of smithying8 ,euth4 ,no1 certainly not4 ,soc4 ,then possibly ignorance of carpentering8 ,euth4 ,no1 nor yet ignorance of carpentering4 ,soc4 ,well1 ignorance of shoemaking8 ,euth4 ,no1 nor ignorance of any of these3 rather the reverse1 for the majority of those who do know just these matters are little better than slaves4 ,soc4 ,you mean it is a title particularly to those who are ignorant of the beautiful1 the good1 the just8 7#dj7 7#dj7 ,cf4 ,goethe's ,im ,ganzen ,guten ,schonen resolut zu leben4 ,it is1 in my opinion 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,then we must in every way strain every nerve to avoid the imputation of being slaves8 ,euth4 ,nay1 ,socrates1 by all that is holy1 ,i did flatter myself that at any rate ,i was a student of philosophy1 and on the right road to be taught everything essential to one who would fain make beauty and goodness his pursuit4 7#da7 ,so that now you may well imagine my despair when1 for all my pains expended1 ,i cannot even answer the questions put to me about what most of all a man should know2 and there is no path of progress open to me1 no avenue of improvement left4 7#da7 tes kalokagathias1 the virtue of the kalos te kagathos-- nobility of soul4 ,cf4 above1 ,i4 vi4 #ad4 ,thereupon ,socrates3 ,tell me1 ,euthydemus1 have you ever been to ,delphi8 ,yes1 certainly2 twice 7said he74 ,soc4 ,and did you notice an inscription somewhere on the temple3 ,,gnomi ,,seauton--,,know ,,thyself8 ,euth4 ,i did4 ,soc4 ,did you1 possibly1 pay no regard to the inscription8 or did you give it heed and try to discover who and what you were8 ,i can safely say ,i did not 7he answered74 ,that much ,i made quite sure ,i knew1 at any rate2 since if ,i did not know even myself1 what in the world did ,i know8 ,soc4 ,can a man be said1 do you think1 to know himself who knows his own name and nothing more8 or must he not rather set to work precisely like the would-be purchaser of a horse1 who certainly does not think that he has got the knowledge he requires until he has discovered whether the beast is tractable or stubborn1 strong or weak1 quick or slow1 and how it stands with the other points1 serviceable or the reverse1 in reference to the use and purpose of a horse8 ,so1 ,i say1 must a man in like manner interrogate his own nature in reference to a man's requirements1 and learn to know his own capacities1 must he not8 ,euth4 ,yes1 so it strikes me3 he who knows not his own ability knows not himself4 ,soc4 ,and this too is plain1 is it not3 that through self-knowledge men meet with countless blessings1 and through ignorance of themselves with many evils8 ,because1 the man who knows himself knows what is advantageous to himself2 he discerns the limits of his powers1 and by doing what he knows1 he provides himself with what he needs and so does well2 or1 conversely1 by holding aloof from what he knows not1 he avoids mistakes and thereby mishaps4 ,and having now a test to gauge other human beings he uses their need as a stepping-stone to provide himself with good and to avoid evil4 ,whereas he who does not know himself1 but is mistaken as to his own capacity1 is in like predicament to the rest of mankind and all human matters else2 he neither knows what he wants1 nor what he is doing1 nor the people whom he deals with2 and being all abroad in these respects1 he misses what is good and becomes involved in what is ill4 ,again1 he that knows what he is doing through the success of his performance attains to fame and honour2 his peers and co-mates are glad to make use of him1 whilst his less successful neighbours1 failing in their affairs1 are anxious to secure his advice1 his guidance1 his protection2 7#db7 they place their hopes of happiness in him1 and for all these causes 7#dc7 single him out as the chief object of their affection4 ,he1 on the contrary1 who knows not what he does1 who chooses amiss and fails in what he puts his hands to1 not only incurs loss and suffers chastisement through his blunders1 but step by step loses reputation and becomes a laughing-stock1 and in the end is doomed to a life of dishonour and contempt4 7#db7 ,cf4 ,dante1 ,tu duca1 tu maestro1 tu signore4 7#dc7 ,reading1 dia panta tauta1 or if dia tauta1 translate and therefore4 ,what is true of individuals is true also of communities4 7#dd7 ,that state which in ignorance of its power goes to war with a stronger than itself ends by being uprooted or else reduced to slavery4 7#dd7 ,or1 more lit4 ,a law which applies1 you will observe1 to bodies politic4 ,thereupon ,euthydemus3 ,be assured ,i fully concur in your opinion2 the precept ,,know ,,thyself cannot be too highly valued2 but what is the application8 ,what the starting-point of self-examination8 ,i look to you for an explanation1 if you would kindly give one4 7#de7 7#de7 ,or1 at what point to commence the process of self-inspection8-- there is the mystery4 ,i look to you1 if you are willing1 to interpret it4 ,well 7replied ,socrates71 ,i presume you know quite well the distinction between good and bad things3 your knowledge may be relied upon so far8 ,why1 yes1 to be sure 7replied the youth72 for without that much discernment ,i should indeed be worse than any slave4 7#df7 7#df7 ,lit4 if ,i did not know even that4 ,come then 7said he71 do you give me an explanation of the things so termed4 ,that is fortunately not hard 7replied the youth74 ,first of all1 health in itself ,i hold to be a good1 and disease in itself an evil2 and in the next place the sources of either of those aforenamed1 meats and drinks1 and habits of life1 7#dg7 ,i regard as good or evil according as they contribute either to health or to disease4 7#dg7 ,or1 pursuits and occupations2 manners and customs4 ,soc4 ,then health and disease themselves when they prove to be sources of any good are good1 but when of any evil1 evil8 ,and when 7asked he71 can health be a source of evil1 or disease a source of good8 ,why1 bless me6 often enough 7replied ,socrates74 ,in the event1 for instance1 of some ill-starred expedition or of some disastrous voyage or other incident of the sort1 of which veritably there are enough to spare--when those who owing to their health and strength take a part in the affair are lost2 whilst those who were left behind--as hors de combat1 on account of ill-health of other feebleness--are saved4 ,euth4 ,yes1 you are right2 but you will admit that there are advantages to be got from strength and lost through weakness4 ,soc4 ,even so2 but ought we to regard those things which at one moment benefit and at another moment injure us in any strict sense good rather than evil8 ,euth4 ,no1 certainly not1 according to that line of argument4 ,but wisdom1 7#dh7 ,socrates1 you must on your side admit1 is irrefragably a good2 since there is nothing which or in which a wise man would not do better than a fool4 7#dh7 ,see above1 ,,iii4 ix4 #e4 ,here sophia is not sophrosune4 ,soc4 ,what say you8 ,have you never heard of ,daedalus1 7#di7 how he was seized by ,minos on account of his wisdom1 and forced to be his slave1 and robbed of fatherland and freedom at one swoop8 and how1 while endeavouring to make his escape with his son1 he caused the boy's death without effecting his own salvation1 but was carried off among barbarians and again enslaved8 7#di7 ,see ,ovid4 ,met4 viii4 #aei foll41 #bfa foll42 ,hygin4 ,fab4 #ci1 #dj2 ,diod4 ,sic4 iv4 #gi2 ,paus4 vii4 #d4 #f4 ,yes1 ,i know the old story 7he answered74 7#ej7 7#ej7 ,or1 ,ah yes1 of course2 the tale is current4 ,soc4 ,or have you not heard of the woes of ,palamedes1 7#ea7 that commonest theme of song1 how for his wisdom's sake ,odysseus envied him and slew him8 7#ea7 ,see ,virg4 ,aen4 ii4 #ij2 ,hygin4 #aje2 ,philostr4 ,her4 x4 ,euth4 ,that tale also is current4 ,soc4 ,and how many others1 pray1 do you suppose have been seized on account of their wisdom1 and despatched to the great king and at his court enslaved8 7#eb7 7#eb7 ,cf4 ,herod4 iii4 #abi4 ,well1 prosperity1 well-being 7#ec7 7he exclaimed71 must surely be a blessing1 and that the most indisputable1 ,socrates8 7#ec7 to eudaimonein1 happiness4 ,cf4 ,herod4 i4 #hf4 ,it might be so 7replied the philosopher7 if it chanced not to be in itself a compound of other questionable blessings4 ,euth4 ,and which among the components of happiness and well-being can possibly be questionable8 ,none 7he retorted71 unless of course we are to include among these components beauty1 or strength1 or wealth1 or reputation1 or anything else of that kind8 ,euth4 ,by heaven6 of course we are to include these1 for what would happiness be without these8 ,soc4 ,by heaven6 yes2 only then we shall be including the commonest sources of mischief which befall mankind4 ,how many are ruined by their fair faces at the hand of admirers driven to distraction 7#ed7 by the sight of beauty in its bloom6 how many1 tempted by their strength to essay deeds beyond their power1 are involved in no small evils6 how many1 rendered effeminate by reason of their wealth1 have been plotted against and destroyed6 7#ee7 how many through fame and political power have suffered a world of woe6 7#ed7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,rep4 vii4 #eag ,d2 ,phaedr4 #bdi ,d4 7#ee7 e4g4 ,alcibiades4 ,well 7the youth replied7 if ,i am not even right in praising happiness1 ,i must confess ,i know not for what one ought to supplicate the gods in prayer4 7#ef7 7#ef7 ,see above for ,socrates' own form of supplication4 ,nay1 these are matters 7proceeded ,socrates7 which perhaps1 through excessive confidence in your knowledge of them1 you have failed to examine into2 but since the state1 which you are preparing yourself to direct1 is democratically constituted1 7#eg7 of course you know what a democracy is4 7#eg7 ,or1 popularly governed4 ,euth4 ,i presume ,i do1 decidedly4 ,soc4 ,well1 now1 is it possible to know what a popular state is without knowing who the people are8 ,euth4 ,certainly not4 ,soc4 ,and whom do you consider to be the people8 ,euth4 ,the poor citizens1 ,i should say4 ,soc4 ,then you know who the poor are1 of course8 ,euth4 ,of course ,i do4 ,soc4 ,i presume you also know who the rich are8 ,euth4 ,as certainly as ,i know who are the poor4 ,soc4 ,whom do you understand by poor and rich8 ,euth4 ,by poor ,i mean those who have not enough to pay for their necessaries1 7#eh7 and by rich those who have more means than sufficient for all their needs4 7#eh7 ,al4 who cannot contribute their necessary quota to the taxes 7according to the census74 ,soc4 ,have you noticed that some who possess a mere pittance not only find this sufficient1 but actually succeed in getting a surplus out of it2 while others do not find a large fortune large enough8 ,i have1 most certainly2 and ,i thank you for the reminder 7replied ,euthydemus74 ,one has heard of crowned heads and despotic rulers being driven by want to commit misdeeds like the veriest paupers4 ,then1 if that is how matters stand 7continued ,socrates71 we must class these same crowned heads with the commonalty2 and some possessors of scant fortunes1 provided they are good economists1 with the wealthy8 ,then ,euthydemus3 ,it is the poverty of my own wit which forces me to this admission4 ,i bethink me it is high time to keep silence altogether2 a little more1 and ,i shall be proved to know absolutely nothing4 ,and so he went away crestfallen1 in an agony of self-contempt1 persuaded that he was verily and indeed no better than a slave4 ,amongst those who were reduced to a like condition by ,socrates1 many refused to come near him again1 whom he for his part looked upon as dolts and dullards4 7#ei7 ,but ,euthydemus had the wit to understand that1 in order to become worthy of account1 his best plan was to associate as much as possible with ,socrates2 and from that moment1 save for some necessity1 he never left him--in some points even imitating him in his habits and pursuits4 ,socrates1 on his side1 seeing that this was the young man's disposition1 disturbed him as little as possible1 but in the simplest and plainest manner initiated him into everything which he held to be needful to know or important to practise4 7#ei7 ,or1 as people of dull intelligence and sluggish temperament4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,gorg4 #dhh ,a4 ,,iii ,it may be inferred that ,socrates was in no hurry for those who were with him to discover capacities for speech and action or as inventive geniuses1 7#a7 without at any rate a well-laid foundation of self-control4 7#b7 ,for those who possessed such abilities without these same saving virtues would1 he believed1 only become worse men with greater power for mischief4 ,his first object was to instil into those who were with him a wise spirit in their relation to the gods4 7#c7 ,that such was the tenor of his conversation in dealing with men may be seen from the narratives of others who were present on some particular occasion4 7#d7 ,i confine myself to a particular discussion with ,euthydemus at which ,i was present4 7#a7 ,or1 as speakers 7see ch4 vi4 below71 and men of action 7see ch4 v4 below71 or as masters of invention 7see ch4 vii4 below74 7#b7 ,or1 but as prior to those excellences must be engrafted in them sophrosune 7the virtues of temperance and sanity of soul74 7#c7 ,lit4 ,his first object and endeavour was to make those who were with him sophronas 7sound of soul7 as regards the gods4 7#d7 ,reading after ,herbst1 ,cobet1 etc41 diegountai1 or if vulg4 diegounto1 translate1 from the current accounts penned during his lifetime by the other witnesses4 ,for alloi see ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 pp4 #ae1 #bc2 above1 ,mem4 ,i4 iv4 #a4 ,socrates said3 7#e7 ,tell me1 ,euthydemus1 has it ever struck you to observe what tender pains the gods have taken to furnish man with all his needs8 7#e7 ,for the subject matter of this teleological chapter1 see above1 ,i4 iv42 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 ,appendix1 p4 #edg foll4 in ref4 to ,dummler's views4 ,euth4 ,no indeed1 ,i cannot say that it has ever struck me4 ,well 7,socrates continued71 you do not need to be reminded that1 in the first place1 we need light1 and with light the gods supply us4 ,euth4 ,most true1 and if we had not got it we should1 as far as our own eyes could help us1 be like men born blind4 ,soc4 ,and then1 again1 seeing that we stand in need of rest and relaxation1 they bestow upon us the blessed balm of silent night4 7#f7 7#f7 kalliston anapauterion4 ,the diction throughout is poetical4 ,yes 7he answered71 we are much beholden for that boon4 ,soc4 ,then1 forasmuch as the sun in his splendour makes manifest to us the hours of the day and bathes all things in brightness1 but anon night in her darkness obliterates distinctions1 have they not displayed aloft the starry orbs1 which inform us of the watches of the night1 whereby we can accomplish many of our needs8 7#g7 7#g7 e4g4 for temple orientation see ,dr4 ,penrose quoted by ,norman ,lockyer1 ,nature1 ,august #ca4 #ahic4 ,it is so 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and let us not forget that the moon herself not only makes clear to us the quarters of the night1 but of the month also8 ,certainly 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and what of this3 that whereas we need nutriment1 this too the heavenly powers yield us8 ,out of earth's bosom they cause good to spring up 7#h7 for our benefit2 and for our benefit provide appropriate seasons to furnish us in turn not only with the many and diverse objects of need1 but with the sources also of our joy and gladness8 7#i7 7#h7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 #gdg ,d4 7#i7 ,or1 pleasure4 ,yes 7he answered eagerly71 these things bear token truly to a love for man4 7#aj7 7#aj7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 #gac ,d2 ,symp4 #ahi ,d4 ,these things are signs of a beneficient regard for man4 ,soc4 ,well1 and what of another priceless gift1 that of water1 which conspires with earth and the seasons to give both birth and increase to all things useful to us2 nay1 which helps to nurture our very selves1 and commingling with all that feeds us1 renders it more digestible1 more wholesome1 and more pleasant to the taste2 and mark you in proportion to the abundance of our need the superabundance of its supply4 ,what say you concerning such a boon8 ,euth4 ,in this again ,i see a sign of providential care4 ,soc4 ,and then the fact that the same heavenly power has provided us with fire 7#aa7--our assistant against cold1 our auxiliary in darkness1 our fellow-workman in every art and every instrument which for the sake of its utility mortal man may invent or furnish himself withal4 ,what of this1 since1 to put it compendiously1 there is nothing serviceable to the life of man worth speaking of but owes its fabrication to fire8 7#ab7 7#aa7 ,lit4 and then the fact that they made provision for us of even fire2 the credit of this boon1 according to ,hesiod1 being due to ,prometheus4 7#ab7 ,or1 no life-aiding appliance worthy of the name4 ,euth4 ,yes1 a transcendent instance of benevolent design4 7#ac7 7#ac7 ,or1 ,yes1 that may be called an extreme instance of the divine 'philanthropy4' ,cf4 ,cic4 de ,n4 ,d4 ii4 #fb4 ,soc4 ,again1 consider the motions of the ,sun1 7#ad7 how when he has turned him about in winter 7#ae7 he again draws nigh to us1 ripening some fruits1 and causing others whose time is past to dry up2 how when he has fulfilled his work he comes no closer1 but turns away as if in fear to scorch us to our hurt unduly2 and again1 when he has reached a point where if he should prolong his retreat we should plainly be frozen to death with cold1 note how he turns him about and resumes his approach1 traversing that region of the heavens where he may shed his genial influence best upon us4 7#ad7 ,a single ,,ms4 inserts a passage to de kai era444 ',anekphraston4 7#ae7 i4e4 as we say1 after the winter solstice4 ,yes1 upon my word 7he answered71 these occurrences bear the impress of being so ordered for the sake of man4 ,soc4 ,and then1 again1 it being manifest that we could not endure either scorching heat or freezing cold if they came suddenly upon us1 note how gradually the sun approaches1 and how gradually recedes1 so that we fail to notice how we come at last to either extreme4 7#af7 7#af7 ,or1 note the gradual approach and gradual recession of the sun- god1 so gradual that we reach either extreme in a manner imperceptibly1 and before we are aware of its severity4 ,for my part 7he replied71 the question forces itself upon my mind1 whether the gods have any other occupation save only to minister to man2 and ,i am only hindered from saying so1 because the rest of animals would seem to share these benefits along with man4 ,soc4 ,why1 to be sure2 and is it not plain that these animals themselves are born and bred for the sake of man8 ,at any rate1 no living creature save man derives so many of his enjoyments from sheep and goats1 horses and cattle and asses1 and other animals4 ,he is more dependent1 ,i should suppose1 on these than even on plants and vegetables4 ,at any rate1 equally with these latter they serve him as means of subsistence or articles of commerce2 indeed1 a large portion of the human family do not use the products of the soil as food at all1 but live on the milk and cheese and flesh of their flocks and herds1 whilst all men everywhere tame and domesticate the more useful kinds of animals1 and turn them to account as fellow-workers in war and for other purposes4 ,yes1 ,i cannot but agree with what you say 7he answered71 when ,i see that animals so much stronger than man become so subservient to his hand that he can use them as he lists4 ,soc4 ,and as we reflect on the infinite beauty and utility and the variety of nature1 what are we to say of the fact that man has been endowed with sensibilities which correspond with this diversity1 whereby we take our fill of every blessing2 7#ag7 or1 again1 this implanted faculty of reasoning1 which enables us to draw inferences concerning the things which we perceive1 and by aid of memory to understand how each set of things may be turned to our good1 and to devise countless contrivances with a view to enjoying the good and repelling the evil2 or lastly1 when we consider the faculty bestowed upon us of interpretative speech1 by which we are enabled to instruct one another1 and to participate in all the blessings fore-named3 to form societies1 to establish laws1 and to enter upon a civilised existence 7#ah7--what are we to think8 7#ag7 ,or1 ,again1 when we consider how many beautiful objects there are serviceable to man1 and yet how unlike they are to one another1 the fact that man has been endowed with senses adapted to each class of things1 and so has access to a world of happiness4 7#ah7 ,cf4 ,aristot4 ,pol4 ,,iii4 ix4 #e4 ,euth4 ,yes1 ,socrates1 decidedly it would appear that the gods do manifest a great regard1 nay1 a tender care1 towards mankind4 ,soc4 ,well1 and what do you make of the fact that where we are powerless to take advantageous forethought for our future1 at this stage they themselves lend us their co-operation1 imparting to the inquirer through divination knowledge of events about to happen1 and instructing him by what means they may best be turned to good account8 ,euth4 ,ay1 and you1 ,socrates1 they would seem to treat in a more friendly manner still than the rest of men1 if1 without waiting even to be inquired of by you1 they show you by signs beforehand what you must1 and what you must not do4 7#ai7 7#ai7 ,see above1 ,i4 iv4 #ad1 for a parallel to the train of thought on the part of ,aristodemus the little1 and of ,euthydemus2 and for ,socrates' daimonion1 see above2 ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #djj4 ,soc4 ,yes1 and you will discover for yourself the truth of what ,i say1 if1 without waiting to behold the outward and visible forms 7#bj7 of the gods themselves1 you will be content to behold their works2 and with these before you1 to worship and honour the ,divine authors of them4 7#ba7 ,i would have you reflect that the very gods themselves suggest this teaching4 7#bb7 ,not one of these but gives us freely of his blessings2 yet they do not step from behind their veil in order to grant one single boon4 7#bc7 ,and pre-eminently ,he who orders and holds together the universe1 7#bd7 in which are all things beautiful and good2 7#be7 who fashions and refashions it to never-ending use unworn1 keeping it free from sickness or decay1 7#bf7 so that swifter than thought it ministers to his will unerringly--this ,god is seen to perform the mightiest operations1 but in the actual administration of the same abides himself invisible to mortal ken4 ,reflect further1 this ,sun above our heads1 so visible to all--as we suppose--will not suffer man to regard him too narrowly1 but should any essay to watch him with a shameless stare he will snatch away their power of vision4 ,and if the gods themselves are thus unseen1 so too shall you find their ministers to be hidden also2 from the height of heaven above the thunderbolt is plainly hurled1 and triumphs over all that it encounters1 yet it is all-invisible1 no eye may detect its coming or its going at the moment of its swoop4 ,the winds also are themselves unseen1 though their works are manifest1 and through their approach we are aware of them4 ,and let us not forget1 the soul of man himself1 which if aught else human shares in the divine--however manifestly enthroned within our bosom1 is as wholly as the rest hidden from our gaze4 ,these things you should lay to mind1 and not despise the invisible ones1 but learn to recognise their power1 as revealed in outward things1 and to know the divine influence4 7#bg7 7#bj7 ,cf4 ,cic4 de ,n4 ,d4 ,i4 xii4 #ca2 ,lactantius1 de ,ira1 xi4 #ac4 7#ba7 ,see ,l4 ,dindorf ad loc4 7ed4 ,ox4 #ahfb71 theous2 ,g4 ,sauppe1 vol4 iii4 ,an4 crit4 p4 xxix2 ,r4 ,kuhner2 ,c4 ,schenkl4 7#bb7 i4e4 that man must walk by faith4 ,for upodeiknunai cf4 ,econ4 xii4 #ah4 7#bc7 ,schneid4 cf4 ,plat4 ,crat4 #cif4 7#bd7 ,or1 the co-ordinator and container of the universe4 7#be7 ,or1 in whom all beauty and goodness is4 7#bf7 ,cf4 ,cyrop4 ,,viii4 vii4 #bb2 above1 ,i4 iv4 #ac4 7#bg7 to daimonion1 the divinity4 ,nay1 ,socrates 7replied ,euthydemus71 there is no danger ,i shall turn a deaf ear to the divine influence even a little2 of that ,i am not afraid1 but ,i am out of heart to think that no soul of man may ever requite the kindness of the gods with fitting gratitude4 ,be not out of heart because of that 7he said72 you know what answer the god at ,delphi makes to each one who comes asking how shall ,i return thanks to heaven8--,according to the law and custom of your city2 and this1 ,i presume1 is law and custom everywhere that a man should please the gods with offerings according to the ability which is in him4 7#bh7 ,how then should a man honour the gods with more beautiful or holier honour than by doing what they bid him8 but he must in no wise slacken or fall short of his ability1 for when a man so does1 it is manifest1 ,i presume1 that at the moment he is not honouring the gods4 ,you must then honour the gods1 not with shortcoming but according to your ability2 and having so done1 be of good cheer and hope to receive the greatest blessings4 ,for where else should a man of sober sense look to receive great blessings if not from those who are able to help him most1 and how else should he hope to obtain them save by seeking to please his helper1 and how may he hope to please his helper better than by yielding him the amplest obedience8 7#bh7 ,or1 and that law1 ,i presume1 is universal which says1 ,let a man1 etc42 and for the maxim see above2 ,anab4 ,,iii4 ii4 #i4 ,by such words--and conduct corresponding to his words--did ,socrates mould and fashion the hearts of his companions1 making them at once more devout and more virtuous4 7#bi7 7#bi7 ,or1 sounder of soul and more temperate as well as more pious4 ,,iv ,but indeed 7#a7 with respect to justice and uprightness he not only made no secret of the opinion he held1 but gave practical demonstration of it1 both in private by his law-abiding and helpful behaviour to all1 7#b7 and in public by obeying the magistrates in all that the laws enjoined1 whether in the life of the city or in military service1 so that he was a pattern of loyalty to the rest of the world1 and on three several occasions in particular3 first1 when as president 7,epistates7 of the assembly he would not suffer the sovereign people to take an unconstitutional vote1 7#c7 but ventured1 on the side of the laws1 to resist a current of popular feeling strong enough1 ,i think1 to have daunted any other man4 ,again1 when the ,thirty tried to lay some injunction on him contrary to the laws1 he refused to obey1 as for instance when they forbade his conversing with the young2 7#d7 or again1 when they ordered him and certain other citizens to arrest a man to be put to death1 7#e7 he stood out single-handed on the ground that the injunctions laid upon him were contrary to the laws4 ,and lastly1 when he appeared as defendant in the suit instituted by ,meletus1 7#f7 notwithstanding that it was customary for litigants in the law courts to humour the judges in the conduct of their arguments by flattery and supplications contrary to the laws1 7#g7 notwithstanding also that defendants owed their acquittal by the court to the employment of such methods1 he refused to do a single thing however habitual in a court of law which was not strictly legal2 and though by only a slight deflection from the strict path he might easily have been acquitted by his judges1 7#h7 he preferred to abide by the laws and die rather than transgress them and live4 7#a7 ,l4 ,dindorf suspects 7,,ss4 #a-f1 ',alla men444 pollakis71 ed4 ,lips4 #ahgb4 ,see also ,praef4 to ,ox4 ed4 p4 viii4 7#b7 ,or1 by his conduct to all1 which was not merely innocent in the eye of law and custom but positively helpful4 7#c7 ,see above1 ,i4 i4 #ah2 ,hell4 ,i4 vii4 #ad1 #ae2 ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #bgb4 7#d7 ,see above1 ,i4 ii4 #ce4 7#e7 ,leon of ,salamis4 ,see ,hell4 ,,ii4 iii4 #ci2 ,plat4 ,apol4 #cb ,c2 ,andoc4 de ,myst4 #df4 7#f7 ,see above1 ,i4 i4 #a2 ,plat4 ,apol4 #ai ,c4 7#g7 ,kuhner cf4 ,quintil4 ,,vi4 i4 #g3 ,athenis affectus movere etiam per praeconem prohibatur orator2 ,apol4 #d2 ,plat4 ,apol4 #ch ,d1 ,e4 7#h7 ,see ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 p4 #ffc foll4 ,these views he frequently maintained in conversation1 now with one and now with another1 and one particular discussion with ,hippias of ,elis 7#i7 on the topic of justice and uprightness has come to my knowledge4 7#aj7 7#i7 ,for this famous person see ,cob4 ,pros4 ,xen4 s4n42 ,plat4 ,hipp4 maj4 #adh2 ,quint4 xii4 #aa1 #ba2 ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #ebd4 7#aj7 ,or1 ,i can personally vouch for4 ,hippias had just arrived at ,athens after a long absence1 and chanced to be present when ,socrates was telling some listeners how astonishing it was that if a man wanted to get another taught to be a shoemaker or carpenter or coppersmith or horseman1 he would have no doubt where to send him for the purpose3 ,people say1 7#aa7 he added1 that if a man wants to get his horse or his ox taught in the right way1 7#ab7 the world is full of instructors2 but if he would learn himself1 or have his son or his slave taught in the way of right1 he cannot tell where to find such instruction4 7#aa7 ,l4 ,dindorf1 after ,ruhnken and ,valckenar1 omits this sentence phasi de tines444 didaxonton4 ,see ,kuhner ad loc4 ,for the sentiment see ,plat4 ,apol4 #bj ,a4 7#ab7 ,cf4 ,cyrop4 ,,ii4 ii4 #bf2 ,,viii4 iii4 #ch2 also ,horsem4 iii4 #e2 ,hunting1 vii4 #d4 ,hippias1 catching the words1 exclaimed in a bantering tone3 ,what6 still repeating the same old talk1 7#ac7 ,socrates1 which ,i used to hear from you long ago8 7#ac7 ,this tale is repeated by ,dio ,chrys4 ,or4 ,,iii4 i4 #aji4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,gorg4 #dij ,e4 ,yes 7answered ,socrates71 and what is still more strange1 ,hippias1 it is not only the same old talk but about the same old subjects4 ,now you1 ,i daresay1 through versatility of knowledge1 7#ad7 never say the same thing twice over on the same subject8 7#ad7 ,or1 such is the breadth of your learning1 polumathes4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,hipp4 maj4 ,to be sure 7he answered71 my endeavour is to say something new on all occasions4 ,what 7he asked7 about things which you know1 as for instance in a case of spelling1 if any one asks you1 ,how many letters in ,socrates1 and what is their order8 7#ae7 ,i suppose you try to run off one string of letters to-day and to-morrow another8 or to a question of arithmetic1 ,does twice five make ten8 your answer to-day will differ from that of yesterday8 7#ae7 ,cf4 ,econ4 viii4 #ad2 ,plat4 ,alc4 i4 #aac ,a4 ,hipp4 ,no2 on these topics1 ,socrates1 ,i do as you do and repeat myself4 ,however1 to revert to justice 7and uprightness71 7#af7 ,i flatter myself ,i can at present furnish you with some remarks which neither you nor any one else will be able to controvert4 7#af7 ,or1 on the topic of the just ,i have something to say at present which1 etc4 ,by ,hera6 7#ag7 7he exclaimed71 what a blessing to have discovered6 7#ah7 ,now we shall have no more divisions of opinion on points of right and wrong2 judges will vote unanimously2 citizens will cease wrangling2 there will be no more litigation1 no more party faction1 states will reconcile their differences1 and wars are ended4 ,for my part ,i do not know how ,i can tear myself away from you1 until ,i have heard from your own lips all about the grand discovery you have made4 7#ag7 ,see above1 ,i4 v4 #e4 7#ah7 ,or1 what a panacea are you the inventor of2 lit4 ,by ,hera1 you have indeed discovered a mighty blessing1 if juries are to cease recording their verdicts 'aye' and 'no'2 if citizens are to cease their wranglings on points of justice1 their litigations1 and their party strifes2 if states are to cease differing on matters of right and wrong and appealing to the arbitrament of war4 ,you shall hear all in good time 7,hippias answered71 but not until you make a plain statement of your own belief4 ,what is justice8 ,we have had enough of your ridiculing all the rest of the world1 questioning and cross-examining first one and then the other1 but never a bit will you render an account to any one yourself or state a plain opinion upon a single topic4 7#ai7 7#ai7 ,see ,plat4 ,gorg4 #dfe ,a4 ,what1 ,hippias 7,socrates retorted71 have you not observed that ,i am in a chronic condition of proclaiming what ,i regard as just and upright8 ,hipp4 ,and pray what is this theory 7#bj7 of yours on the subject8 ,let us have it in words4 7#bj7 o logos4 ,soc4 ,if ,i fail to proclaim it in words1 at any rate ,i do so in deed and in fact4 ,or do you not think that a fact is worth more as evidence than a word8 7#ba7 7#ba7 ,or1 is of greater evidential value1 ubi res adsunt1 quid opus est verbis8 ,worth far more1 ,i should say 7,hippias answered71 for many a man with justice and right on his lips commits injustice and wrong1 but no doer of right ever was a misdoer or could possibly be4 ,soc4 ,i ask then1 have you ever heard or seen or otherwise perceived me bearing false witness or lodging malicious information1 or stirring up strife among friends or political dissension in the city1 or committing any other unjust and wrongful act8 ,no1 ,i cannot say that ,i have 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and do you not regard it as right and just to abstain from wrong8 7#bb7 7#bb7 ,or1 is not abstinence from wrongdoing synonymous with righteous behaviour8 ,hipp4 ,now you are caught1 ,socrates1 plainly trying to escape from a plain statement4 ,when asked what you believe justice to be1 you keep telling us not what the just man does1 but what he does not do4 ,why1 ,i thought for my part 7answered ,socrates7 that the refusal to do wrong and injustice was a sufficient warrent in itself of righteousness and justice1 but if you do not agree1 see if this pleases you better3 ,i assert that what is lawful is just and righteous4 ,do you mean to assert 7he asked7 that lawful and just are synonymous terms8 ,soc4 ,i do4 ,i ask 7,hippias added71 for ,i do not perceive what you mean by lawful1 nor what you mean by just4 7#bc7 7#bc7 ,lit4 what sort of lawful or what sort of just is spoken of4 ,soc4 ,you understand what is meant by laws of a city or state8 ,yes 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,what do you take them to be8 ,hipp4 ,the several enactments drawn up by the citizens or members of a state in agreement as to what things should be done or left undone4 ,then ,i presume 7,socrates continued7 that a member of a state who regulates his life in accordance with these enactments will be law-abiding1 while the transgressor of the same will be law-less8 ,certainly 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and ,i presume the law-loving citizen will do what is just and right1 while the lawless man will do what is unjust and wrong8 ,hipp4 ,certainly4 ,soc4 ,and ,i presume that he who does what is just is just1 and he who does what is unjust is unjust8 ,hipp4 ,of course4 ,soc4 ,it would appear1 then1 that the law-loving man is just1 and the lawless unjust8 ,then ,hippias3 ,well1 but laws1 ,socrates1 how should any one regard as a serious matter either the laws themselves1 or obedience to them1 which laws the very people who made them are perpetually rejecting and altering8 ,which is also true of war 7,socrates replied72 cities are perpetually undertaking war and then making peace again4 ,most true 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,if so1 what is the difference between depreciating obedience to law because laws will be repealed1 and depreciating good discipline in war because peace will one day be made8 ,but perhaps you object to enthusiasm displayed in defence of one's home and fatherland in war8 ,no1 indeed ,i do not6 ,i heartily approve of it 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,then have you laid to heart the lesson taught by ,lycurgus to the ,lacedaemonians1 7#bd7 and do you understand that if he succeeded in giving ,sparta a distinction above other states1 it was only by instilling into her1 beyond all else1 a spirit of obedience to the laws8 ,and among magistrates and rulers in the different states1 you would scarcely refuse the palm of superiority to those who best contribute to make their fellow-citizens obedient to the laws8 ,and you would admit that any particular state in which obedience to the laws is the paramount distinction of the citizens flourishes most in peace time1 and in time of war is irresistible8 ,but1 indeed1 of all the blessings which a state may enjoy1 none stands higher than the blessing of unanimity4 ,concord among citizens--that is the constant theme of exhortation emphasised by the councils of elders 7#be7 and by the choice spirits of the community2 7#bf7 at all times and everywhere through the length and breadth of all ,hellas it is an established law that the citizens be bound together by an oath of concord2 7#bg7 everywhere they do actually swear this oath2 not of course as implying that citizens shall all vote for the same choruses1 or give their plaudits to the same flute-players1 or choose the same poets1 or limit themselves to the same pleasures1 but simply that they shall pay obedience to the laws1 since in the end that state will prove most powerful and most prosperous in which the citizens abide by these2 but without concord neither can a state be well administered nor a household well organised4 7#bd7 ,cf4 ,pol4 ,lac4 viii4 ,see ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #cif4 7#be7 ,lit4 the ,gerousiai4 ,s or ,x ,s uses the ,spartan phraseology4 7#bf7 ,lit4 the best men4 ,s or ,x ,s speaks as an aristocrat4 7#bg7 ,cf4 ,hell4 ,,ii4 iv4 #dc2 ,lys4 xxv4 #ba foll42 ,schneid4 cf4 ,lycurg4 u ,leocr4 #ahi4 ,and if we turn to private life1 what better protection can a man have than obedience to the laws8 ,this shall be his safeguard against penalties1 his guarantee of honours at the hands of the community2 it shall be a clue to thread his way through the mazes of the law courts unbewildered1 secure against defeat1 assured of victory4 7#bh7 ,it is to him1 the law-loving citizen1 that men will turn in confidence when seeking a guardian of the most sacred deposits1 be it of money or be it their sons or daughters4 ,he1 in the eyes of the state collectively1 is trustworthy--he and no other2 who alone may be depended on to render to all alike their dues--to parents and kinsmen and servants1 to friends and fellow-citizens and foreigners4 ,this is he whom the enemy will soonest trust to arrange an armistice1 or a truce1 or a treaty of peace4 ,they would like to become the allies of this man1 and to fight on his side4 ,this is he to whom the allies 7#bi7 of his country will most confidently entrust the command of their forces1 or of a garrison1 or their states themselves4 ,this1 again1 is he who may be counted on to recompense kindness with gratitude1 and who1 therefore1 is more sure of kindly treatment than another whose sense of gratitude is fuller4 7#cj7 ,the most desirable among friends1 the enemy of all others to be avoided1 clearly he is not the person whom a foreign state would choose to go to war with2 encompassed by a host of friends and exempt from foes1 his very character has a charm to compel friendship and alliance1 and before him hatred and hostility melt away4 7#bh7 ,or1 ignorant of hostile1 assured of favourable verdict4 7#bi7 ,lit4 the ,allies1 e4g4 of ,sparta or of ,athens1 etc4 7#cj7 ,lit4 ,from whom may the doer of a deed of kindness more confidently expect the recompense of gratitude than from your lover of the law8 and whom would one select as the recipient of kindness rather than a man susceptible of gratitude8 ,and now1 ,hippias1 ,i have done my part2 that is my proof and demonstration that the lawful and law-observant are synonymous with the upright and the just2 do you1 if you hold a contrary view1 instruct us4 7#ca7 7#ca7 ,for the style of this enconium 7of the nomimos7 cf4 ,ages4 i4 #cf2 and for the ,socratic reverence for law cf4 ,plat4 ,crito4 ,then ,hippias3 ,nay1 upon my soul1 ,socrates1 ,i am not aware of holding any contrary opinion to what you have uttered on the theme of justice4 7#cb7 7#cb7 ,lit4 the just and upright1 tou dikaiou4 ,soc4 ,but now1 are you aware1 ,hippias1 of certain unwritten laws8 7#cc7 7#cc7 ,see ,soph4 ,antig4 ,oed4 ,t4 #hfe1 and ,prof4 ,jebb ad loc42 ,dem4 de ,cor4 #cag1 #bc2 ,aristot4 ,rhet4 ,i4 xiii4 ,yes 7he answered71 those held in every part of the world1 and in the same sense4 ,can you then assert 7asked ,socrates7 of these unwritten laws that men made them8 ,nay1 how 7he answered7 should that be1 for how could they all have come together from the ends of the earth8 and even if they had so done1 men are not all of one speech8 7#cd7 7#cd7 ,or1 there would be difficulty of understanding each other1 and a babel of tongues4 ,soc4 ,whom then do you believe to have been the makers of these laws4 ,hipp4 ,for my part1 ,i think that the gods must have made these laws for men1 and ,i take it as proof that first and foremost it is a law and custom everywhere to worship and reverence the gods4 ,soc4 ,and1 ,i presume1 to honour parents is also customary everywhere8 ,yes1 that too 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and1 ,i presume1 also the prohibition of intermarriage between parents and children8 ,hipp4 ,no2 at that point ,i stop1 ,socrates4 ,that does not seem to me to be a law of ,god4 ,now1 why8 7he asked74 ,because ,i perceive it is not infrequently transgressed 7he answered74 7#ce7 7#ce7 ,or1 as ,i perceive1 it is not of universal application1 some transgress it4 ,soc4 ,well1 but there are a good many other things which people do contrary to law2 only the penalty1 ,i take it1 affixed to the transgression of the divine code is certain2 there is no escape for the offender after the manner in which a man may transgress the laws of man with impunity1 slipping through the fingers of justice by stealth1 or avoiding it by violence4 ,hipp4 ,and what is the inevitable penalty paid by those who1 being related as parents and children1 intermingle in marriage8 ,soc4 ,the greatest of all penalties2 for what worse calamity can human beings suffer in the production of offspring than to misbeget8 7#cf7 7#cf7 ,or1 in the propagation of the species than to produce misbegotten children4 ,hipp4 ,but how or why should they breed them ill where nothing hinders them1 being of a good stock themselves and producing from stock as good8 ,soc4 ,because1 forsooth1 in order to produce good children1 it is not simply necessary that the parents should be good and of a good stock1 but that both should be equally in the prime and vigour of their bodies4 7#cg7 ,do you suppose that the seed of those who are at their prime is like theirs who either have not yet reached their prime1 or whose prime has passed8 7#cg7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 viii4 #hci ,a2 ,herbst1 etc41 cf4 ,grotius1 de ,jure1 ii4 #e1 xii4 #d4 ,hipp4 ,no1 it is reasonable to expect that the seed will differ4 ,soc4 ,and for the better--which8 ,hipp4 ,theirs clearly who are at their prime4 ,soc4 ,it would seem that the seed of those who are not yet in their prime or have passed their prime is not good8 ,hipp4 ,it seems most improbable it should be4 ,soc4 ,then the right way to produce children is not that way8 ,hipp4 ,no1 that is not the right way4 ,soc4 ,then children who are so produced are produced not as they ought to be8 ,hipp4 ,so it appears to me4 ,what offspring then 7he asked7 will be ill produced1 ill begotten1 and ill born1 if not these8 ,i subscribe to that opinion also 7replied ,hippias74 ,soc4 ,well1 it is a custom universally respected1 is it not1 to return good for good1 and kindness with kindness8 ,hipp4 ,yes1 a custom1 but one which again is apt to be transgressed4 ,soc4 ,then he that so transgresses it pays penalty in finding himself isolated2 bereft of friends who are good1 and driven to seek after those who love him not4 ,or is it not so that he who does me kindness in my intercourse with him is my good friend1 but if ,i requite not this kindness to my benefactor1 ,i am hated by him for my ingratitude1 and yet ,i must needs pursue after him and cling to him because of the great gain to me of his society8 ,hipp4 ,yes1 ,socrates4 ,in all these cases1 ,i admit1 there is an implication of divine authority2 7#ch7 that a law should in itself be loaded with the penalty of its transgression does suggest to my mind a higher than human type of legislator4 7#ch7 ,lit4 ,yes1 upon my word1 ,socrates1 all these cases look very like 7would seem to point to7 the gods4 ,soc4 ,and in your opinion1 ,hippias1 is the legislation of the gods just and righteous1 or the reverse of what is just and righteous8 ,hipp4 ,not the reverse of what is just and righteous1 ,socrates1 ,god forbid6 for scarcely could any other legislate aright1 of not ,god himself4 ,soc4 ,it would seem then1 ,hippias1 the gods themselves are well pleased that the lawful and the just should be synonymous8 7#ci7 7#ci7 ,or1 it is well pleasing also to the gods that what is lawful is just and what is just is lawful4 ,by such language and by such conduct1 through example and precept alike1 he helped to make those who approached him more upright and more just4 ,v ,and now ,i propose to show in what way he made those who were with him more vigorous in action4 7#a7 ,in the first place1 as befitted one whose creed was that a basis of self-command is indispensable to any noble performance1 he manifested himself to his companions as one who had pre-eminently disciplined himself2 7#b7 and in the next place by conversation and discussion he encouraged them to a like self-restraint beyond all others4 7#c7 ,thus it was that he continued ever mindful himself1 and was continually reminding all whom he encountered1 of matters conducive to virtue2 as the following discussion with ,euthydemus1 which has come to my knowledge1 7#d7 will serve to illustrate--the topic of the discussion being self-command4 7#a7 ,lit4 more practical1 i4e4 more energetic and effective4 7#b7 ,if any one might claim to be a prince of ascetics1 it was ,socrates2 such was the ineffaceable impression left on the minds of his associates4 7#c7 ,or1 he stimulated in these same companions a spirit of self- restraint beyond all else4 7#d7 ,or1 which ,i can vouch for4 ,tell me1 ,euthydemus 7he began71 do you believe freedom to be a noble and magnificent acquisition1 whether for a man or for a state8 ,i cannot conceive a nobler or more magnificent 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,then do you believe him to be a free man who is ruled by the pleasures of the body1 and thereby cannot perform what is best8 ,certainly not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,no6 for possibly to perform what is best appears to you to savour of freedom8 ,and1 again1 to have some one over you who will prevent you doing the like seems a loss of freedom8 ,most decidedly 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it would seem you are decidedly of opinion that the incontinent are the reverse of free8 7#e7 7#e7 ,or1 incontinency is illiberal4 ,euth4 ,upon my word1 ,i much suspect so4 ,soc4 ,and does it appear to you that the incontinent man is merely hindered from doing what is noblest1 or that further he is impelled to do what is most shameful8 ,euth4 ,i think he is as much driven to the one as he is hindered from the other4 ,soc4 ,and what sort of lords and masters are those1 think you1 who at once put a stop to what is best and enforce what is worst8 ,euth4 ,goodness knows1 they must be the very worst of masters4 ,soc4 ,and what sort of slavery do you take to be the worst8 ,i should say 7he answered7 slavery to the worst masters4 ,it would seem then 7pursued ,socrates7 that the incontinent man is bound over to the worst sort of slavery1 would it not8 ,so it appears to be 7the other answered74 ,soc4 ,and does it not appear to you that this same beldame incontinence shuts out wisdom1 which is the best of all things1 7#f7 from mankind1 and plunges them into the opposite8 ,does it not appear to you that she hinders men from attending to things which will be of use and benefit1 and from learning to understand them2 that she does so by dragging them away to things which are pleasant2 and often though they are well aware of the good and of the evil1 she amazes and confounds 7#g7 their wits and makes them choose the worse in place of the better8 7#f7 ,wisdom1 the greatest good which men can possess4 7#g7 ,schneid4 cf4 ,plat4 ,protag4 #cee ,a2 and ,symp4 iv4 #bc4 ,yes1 so it comes to pass 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and 7#h7 soundness of soul1 the spirit of temperate modesty8 ,who has less claim to this than the incontinent man8 ,the works of the temperate spirit and the works of incontinency are1 ,i take it1 diametrically opposed8 7#h7 ,and if this be so concerning wisdom1 sophia1 what of sophrasune1 soundness of soul--sobriety8 ,that too1 ,i admit 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,if this then be so concerning these virtues1 7#i7 what with regard to carefulness and devotion to all that ought to occupy us8 ,can anything more seriously militate against these than this same incontinence8 7#i7 ,or add1 ,if this be so concerning not wisdom only1 but concerning temperance and soundness of soul1 what1 etc4 ,nothing that ,i can think of 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,and can worse befall a man1 think you8 ,can he be subjected to a more baleful influence than that which induces him to choose what is hurtful in place of what is helpful2 which cajoles him to devote himself to the evil and to neglect the good2 which forces him1 will he nill he1 to do what every man in his sober senses would shrink from and avoid8 ,i can imagine nothing worse 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,self-control1 it is reasonable to suppose1 will be the cause of opposite effects upon mankind to those of its own opposite1 the want of self-control8 ,euth4 ,it is to be supposed so4 ,soc4 ,and this1 which is the source of opposite effects to the very worst1 will be the very best of things8 ,euth4 ,that is the natural inference4 ,soc4 ,it looks1 does it not1 ,euthydemus1 as if self-control were the best thing a man could have8 ,it does indeed1 ,socrates 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,but now1 ,euthydemus1 has it ever occurred to you to note one fact8 ,what fact8 7he asked74 ,soc4 ,that1 after all1 incontinency is powerless to bring us to that realm of sweetness which some look upon 7#aj7 as her peculiar province2 it is not incontinency but self-control alone which has the passport to highest pleasures4 7#aj7 ,or1 which we are apt to think of as4 ,in what way8 7he asked74 ,how so8 ,why1 this way 7,socrates answered73 since incontinency will not suffer us to resist hunger and thirst1 or to hold out against sexual appetite1 or want of sleep 7which abstinences are the only channels to true pleasure in eating and drinking1 to the joys of love1 to sweet repose and blissful slumber won by those who will patiently abide and endure till each particular happiness is at the flood7 7#aa7--;it comes to this3 by incontinency we are cut off from the full fruition of the more obvious and constantly recurring pleasures4 7#ab7 ,to self-control1 which alone enables us to endure the pains aforesaid1 alone belongs the power to give us any pleasure worth remembering in these common cases4 7#aa7 ,or1 at its season4 ,lit4 is as sweet as possible4 7#ab7 ,or1 from tasting to any extent worth speaking of the most necessary and all-pervading sources of happiness4 ,you speak the words of truth 7#ac7 7he answered74 7#ac7 ,lit4 ,what you say is absolutely and entirely true 7the vraie verite of the matter74 ,soc4 ,furthermore1 7#ad7 if there be any joy in learning aught beautiful and good1 or in patient application to such rules as may enable a man to manage his body aright1 or to administer his household well1 or to prove himself useful to his friends and to the state1 or to dominate his enemies--which things are the sources not only of advantage but of deepest satisfaction 7#ae7--to the continent and self-controlled it is given to reap the fruits of them in their performance4 ,it is the incontinent who have neither part nor lot in any one of them4 ,since we must be right in asserting that he is least concerned with such things who has least ability to do them1 being tied down to take an interest in the pleasure which is nearest to hand4 7#ad7 ,or1 ,but indeed1 if there be joy in the pursuit of any noble study or of such accomplishments as shall enable1 etc4 7#ae7 ,or1 of the highest pleasures4 ,euthydemus replied3 ,socrates1 you would say1 it seems to me1 that a man who is mastered by the pleasures of the body has no concern at all with virtue4 ,and what is the distinction1 ,euthydemus 7he asked71 between a man devoid of self-control and the dullest of brute beasts8 ,a man who foregoes all height of aim1 who gives up searching for the best and strives only to gratify his sense of pleasure1 7#af7 is he better than the silliest of cattle8 7#ag7444 ,but to the self-controlled alone is it given to discover the hid treasures4 ,these1 by word and by deed1 they will pick out and make selection of them according to their kinds1 choosing deliberately the good and holding aloof from the evil4 7#ah7 ,thus 7he added7 it is that a man reaches the zenith1 as it were1 of goodness and happiness1 thus it is that he becomes most capable of reasoning and discussion4 7#ai7 ,the very name discussion 7dialegesthai7 is got from people coming together and deliberating in common by picking out and selecting things 7dialegein7 according to their kinds4 7#bj7 ,a man then is bound to prepare himself as much as possible for this business1 and to pursue it beyond all else with earnest resolution2 for this is the right road to excellence1 this will make a man fittest to lead his fellows and be a master in debate4 7#ba7 7#af7 ,or1 and seeks by hook and by crook to do what is pleasantest4 7#ag7 i4e4 he becomes an animal feeding a blind life within the brain4 7#ah7 ,or1 selecting the ore and repudiating the dross4 ,kuhner cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 v4 #gce ,b4 7#ai7 ,or1 draws nearer to happiness and perfection1 and is most capable of truth-disclosing conversation4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,apol4 #da3 ,what would not a man give1 ,o judges1 to be able to examine the leaders of the great ,trojan expedition1 or ,odysseus1 or ,sisyphus1 or numberless others1 men and women too6 ,what infinite delight would there be in conversing with them and asking them questions6 7,jowett74 7#bj7 ,for dialegein kata gene dialegesthai1 cf4 ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 viii4 #eij4 7#ba7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,rep4 #ecd ,d2 ,phaedr4 #beb ,e2 ,crat4 #cij ,c2 ,statesm4 #bhf ,d foll4 ,,vi ,at this point ,i will endeavour to explain in what way ,socrates fostered this greater dialectic capacity among his intimates4 7#a7 ,he held firmly to the opinion that if a man knew what each reality was1 he would be able to explain this knowledge to others2 but1 failing the possession of that knowledge1 it did not surprise him that men should stumble themselves and cause others to stumble also4 7#b7 ,it was for this reason that he never ceased inquiring with those who were with him into the true nature of things that are4 7#c7 ,it would be a long business certainly to go through in detail all the definitions at which he arrived2 ,i will therefore content myself with such examples as will serve to show his method of procedure4 ,as a first instance ,i will take the question of piety4 ,the mode of investigation may be fairly represented as follows4 7#a7 ,lit4 essayed to make those who were with him more potent in dialectic4 7#b7 ,or1 ,socrates believed that any one who knew the nature of anything would be able to let others into his secret2 but1 failing that knowledge1 he thought the best of men would be but blind leaders of the blind1 stumbling themselves and causing others to stumble also4 7#c7 ,or add1 ',what is this among things8 and what is its definition8' --such was the ever-recurrent question for which he sought an answer4 ,tell me 7said he71 ,euthydemus1 what sort of thing you take piety to be8 ,something most fair and excellent1 no doubt 7the other answered74 7#d7 7#d7 ,or1 ,a supreme excellence1 no doubt4 ,soc4 ,and can you tell me what sort of person the pious man is8 7#e7 7#e7 ,or1 can you give me a definition of the pious man82 tell me who and what the pious man is4 ,i should say 7he answered7 he is a man who honours the gods4 ,soc4 ,and is it allowable to honour the gods in any mode or fashion one likes8 ,euth4 ,no2 there are laws in accordance with which one must do that4 ,soc4 ,then he who knows these laws will know how he must honour the gods8 ,i think so 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and he who knows how he must honour the gods conceives that he ought not to do so except in the manner which accords with his knowledge8 7#f7 ,is it not so8 7#f7 i4e4 his practice must square with his knowledge and be the outward expression of his belief8 ,euth4 ,that is so4 7#g7 7#g7 ,that is so2 you rightly describe his frame of mind and persuasion4 ,soc4 ,and does any man honour the gods otherwise than he thinks he ought8 7#h7 7#h7 ,as he should and must4 ,see ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cbb foll4 ,i think not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it comes to this then3 he who knows what the law requires in reference to the gods will honour the gods in the lawful way8 7#i7 7#i7 ,or1 he who knows what is lawful with regard to ,heaven pays honour to ,heaven lawfully4 ,euth4 ,certainly4 ,soc4 ,but now1 he who honours lawfully honours as he ought8 7#aj7 7#aj7 ,as he should and must4 ,euth4 ,i see no alternative4 ,soc4 ,and he who honours as he ought is a pious man8 ,euth4 ,certainly4 ,soc4 ,it would appear that he who knows what the law requires with respect to the gods will correctly be defined as a pious man1 and that is our definition8 ,so it appears to me1 at any rate 7he replied74 7#aa7 7#aa7 ,i accept it at any rate as mine4 ,n4,b4--in reference to this definition of ,piety1 the question is never raised poion ti esti nomos2 nor yet poioi tines eisin oi theoi2 but clearly there is a growth in ta nomima4 ,cf4 the conversation recorded in ,st4 ,john iv4 #g foll41 and the words 7verse #bc7 pneuma o ,theos kai tous proskunountas auton en pneumati kai aletheia dei proskunein1 which the philosopher ,socrates would perhaps readily have assented to4 ,soc4 ,but now1 with regard to human beings2 is it allowable to deal with men in any way one pleases8 7#ab7 7#ab7 ,or1 may a man deal with his fellow-men arbitrarily according to his fancy8 ,see above1 ,,ii4 vii4 #h4 ,euth4 ,no2 with regard to men also1 he will be a law-observing man 7#ac7 who knows what things are lawful as concerning men1 in accordance with which our dealings with one another must be conducted4 7#ad7 7#ac7 ,or1 he is a man full of the law 7lawful7 and law-abiding who knows1 etc4 7#ad7 ,reading kath' a dei pros allelous khresthai1 subaud4 allelois1 or if vulg4 kath' a dei pos allelois khresthai1 translate must be specifically conducted4 ,soc4 ,then those who deal with one another in this way1 deal with each other as they ought8 7#ae7 7#ae7 ,as they should and must4 ,obviously 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and they who deal with one another as they ought1 deal well and nobly--is it not so8 ,certainly 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and they who deal well and nobly by mankind are well-doers in respect of human affairs8 ,that would seem to follow 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,i presume that those who obey the laws do what is just and right8 ,without a doubt1 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and by things right and just you know what sort of things are meant8 ,what the laws ordain 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it would seem to follow that they who do what the laws ordain both do what is right and just and what they ought8 7#af7 7#af7 ,what they should and must4 ,euth4 ,i see no alternative4 ,soc4 ,but then1 he who does what is just and right is upright and just8 7#ag7 7#ag7 ,this proposition1 as ,kuhner argues 7ad loc471 is important as being the middle term of the double syllogism 7,a and ,b7-- ,a4 ,those who do what the law demands concerning men do what is just and right4 ,those who do what is just and right are righteous and just4 ,ergo--,those who do what the law demands concerning men are righteous and just4 ,b4 ,those who know what is just and right ought 7and are bound1 cf4 above1 ,,iii4 ix4 #d7 to do also what is just and right4 ,those who do what is just and right are righteous and just4 ,ergo--,righteous and ,just 7dikaioi7 may be defined as ,those who know what the law demands 7aliter things right and just7 concerning men4 ,i should say so myself 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and should you say that any one obeys the laws without knowing what the laws ordain8 ,i should not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and do you suppose that any one who knows what things he ought to do supposes that he ought not to do them8 7#ah7 7#ah7 ,or1 and no one who knows what he must and should do imagines that he must and should not do it8 ,no1 ,i suppose not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and do you know of anybody doing other than what he feels bound to do8 7#ai7 7#ai7 ,or1 and nobody that you know of does the contrary of what he thinks he should do8 ,no1 ,i do not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it would seem that he who knows what things are lawful 7#bj7 as concerning men does the things that are just and right8 7#bj7 ,or1 of lawful obligation4 ,without a doubt 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,but then1 he who does what is just and right is upright and just8 7#ba7 7#ba7 ,n4,b4--,in reference to this definition of justice1 see ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cbc foll41 ,das ist eine ,karrikatur des ,sokratischen ,dialogs4 ,who else1 if not8 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,it would seem1 then1 we shall have got to a right definition if we name as just and upright those who know the things which are lawful as concerning men8 ,that is my opinion 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and what shall we say that wisdom is8 ,tell me1 does it seem to you that the wise are wise in what they know1 7#bb7 or are there any who are wise in what they know not8 7#bb7 ,or1 in that of which they have the knowledge 7episteme74 ,euth4 ,clearly they are wise in what they know2 7#bc7 for how could a man have wisdom in that which he does not know8 7#bc7 ,or1 their wisdom is confined to that of which they have the episteme4 ,how could a man be wise in what he lacks the knowledge of8 ,soc4 ,in fact1 then1 the wise are wise in knowledge8 ,euth4 ,why1 in what else should a man be wise save only in knowledge8 ,soc4 ,and is wisdom anything else than that by which a man is wise1 think you8 ,euth4 ,no2 that1 and that only1 ,i think4 ,soc4 ,it would seem to follow that knowledge and wisdom are the same8 ,euth4 ,so it appears to me4 ,soc4 ,may ,i ask1 does it seem to you possible for a man to know all the things that are8 ,euth4 ,no1 indeed6 not the hundredth part of them1 ,i should say4 ,soc4 ,then it would seem that it is impossible for a man to be all-wise8 ,quite impossible 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it would seem the wisdom of each is limited to his knowledge2 each is wise only in what he knows8 ,euth4 ,that is my opinion4 7#bd7 7#bd7 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,theaet4 #ade ,d4 ,n4,b4--,for this definition of wisdom see ,k4 ,joel1 ib4 p4 #cbd foll4 ,soc4 ,well6 come now1 ,euthydemus1 as concerning the good3 ought we to search for the good in this way8 ,what way8 7he asked74 ,soc4 ,does it seem to you that the same thing is equally advantageous to all8 ,no1 ,i should say not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,you would say that a thing which is beneficial to one is sometimes hurtful to another8 ,decidedly 7he replied74 ,soc4 ,and is there anything else good except that which is beneficial1 should you say8 7#be7 7#be7 ,or reading 7#a7 allo d' an ti phaies e agathon einai to ophelimon2 or else 7#b7 allo d' an ti phaies agathon einai to ophelimon2 7in which case alloti allo ti e27 translate 7#a7 and what is beneficial is good 7or a good71 should you not say8 lit4 could you say that the beneficial is anything else than good 7or a good78 or else 7#b7 and what is beneficial is good 7or a good78 or is it anything else8 ,nothing else 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it would seem to follow that the beneficial is good relatively to him to whom it is beneficial8 ,that is how it appears to me 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and the beautiful3 can we speak of a thing as beautiful in any other way than relatively8 or can you name any beautiful thing1 body1 vessel1 or whatever it be1 which you know of as universally beautiful8 7#bf7 7#bf7 i4e4 beautiful in all relations into which it enters4 ,reading to de kalon ekhoimen an pos allos eipein e estin onomazein kalon e soma e skeuos e all' otioun1 o oistha pros tanta kalon on2 ,ma ,di'1 ouk egog'1 ephe4 ,for other emendations of the vulg41 and the many interpretations which have been given to the passage1 see ,r4 ,kuhner ad loc4 ,euth4 ,i confess ,i do not know of any such myself4 7#bg7 7#bg7 ,or1 adopting the reading ekhois an in place of ekhoimen an above1 translate ,i certainly cannot1 ,i confess4 ,soc4 ,i presume to turn a thing to its proper use is to apply it beautifully8 ,euth4 ,undoubtedly it is a beautiful appliance4 7#bh7 7#bh7 ,or1 ,i presume it is well and good and beautiful to use this1 that1 and the other thing for the purpose for which the particular thing is useful8--,that nobody can deny 7he answered74 ,it is impossible to convey simply the verbal play and the quasi- argumentative force of the ,greek kalos ekhei pros ti tini khresthai4 ,see ,k4 ,joel1 p4 #dbf4 ,soc4 ,and is this1 that1 and the other thing beautiful for aught else except that to which it may be beautifully applied8 ,euth4 ,no single thing else4 ,soc4 ,it would seem that the useful is beautiful relatively to that for which it is of use8 ,so it appears to me 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and what of courage1 7#bi7 ,euthydemus8 ,i presume you rank courage among things beautiful8 ,it is a noble quality8 7#cj7 7#bi7 ,or1 perhaps better1 fortitude4 ,see ,h4 ,sidgwick1 ,hist4 of ,ethics1 p4 #dc4 7#cj7 ,it is one of ta kala4 ,see ,k4 ,joel1 ib4 p4 #cbe1 and in reference to the definitions of the ,good and of the ,beautiful1 ib4 p4 #dbe foll4 ,nay1 one of the most noble 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it seems that you regard courage as useful to no mean end8 ,euth4 ,nay1 rather the greatest of all ends1 ,god knows4 ,soc4 ,possibly in face of terrors and dangers you would consider it an advantage to be ignorant of them8 ,certainly not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it seems that those who have no fear in face of dangers1 simply because they do not know what they are1 are not courageous8 ,most true 7he answered72 or1 by the same showing1 a large proportion of madmen and cowards would be courageous4 ,soc4 ,well1 and what of those who are in dread of things which are not dreadful1 are they-- ,euth4 ,courageous1 ,socrates8--still less so than the former1 goodness knows4 ,soc4 ,possibly1 then1 you would deem those who are good in the face of terrors and dangers to be courageous1 and those who are bad in the face of the same to be cowards8 ,certainly ,i should 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and can you suppose any other people to be good in respect of such things except those who are able to cope with them and turn them to noble account8 7#ca7 7#ca7 kalos khresthai1 lit4 make a beautiful use of them4 ,no2 these and these alone 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,and those people who are of a kind to cope but badly with the same occurrences1 it would seem1 are bad8 ,who else1 if not they8 7he asked74 ,soc4 ,may it be that both one and the other class do use these circumstances as they think they must and should8 7#cb7 7#cb7 ,or1 feel bound and constrained to do4 ,why1 how else should they deal with them8 7he asked74 ,soc4 ,can it be said that those who are unable to cope well with them or to turn them to noble account know how they must and should deal with them8 7#cc7 7#cc7 ,or1 ,can it be said that those who are unable to cope nobly with their perilous surroundings know how they ought to deal with them8 ,i presume not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it would seem to follow that those who have the knowledge how to behave are also those who have the power8 7#cd7 7#cd7 ,he who kens can4 ,yes2 these1 and these alone 7he said74 ,soc4 ,well1 but now1 what of those who have made no egregious blunder 7in the matter72 can it be they cope ill with the things and circumstances we are discussing8 ,i think not 7he answered74 ,soc4 ,it would seem1 conversely1 that they who cope ill have made some egregious blunder8 ,euth4 ,probably2 indeed1 it would appear to follow4 ,soc4 ,it would seem1 then1 that those who know 7#ce7 how to cope with terrors and dangers well and nobly are courageous1 and those who fail utterly of this are cowards8 7#ce7 ,who have the episteme4 ,so ,i judge them to be 7he answered74 7#cf7 7#cf7 ,n4,b4--,for this definition of courage see ,plat4 ,laches1 #aie ,a and passim2 ,k4 ,joel1 op4 cit4 p4 #cbe foll4 ,a kingdom and a tyranny 7#cg7 were1 he opined1 both of them forms of government1 but forms which differed from one another1 in his belief2 a kingdom was a government over willing men in accordance with civil law1 whereas a tyranny implied the government over unwilling subjects not according to law1 but so as to suit the whims and wishes of the ruler4 7#cg7 ,or1 despotism4 ,there were1 moreover1 three forms of citizenship or polity2 in the case where the magistrates were appointed from those who discharged the obligations prescribed by law1 he held the polity to be an aristocracy 7or rule of the best72 7#ch7 where the title to office depended on rateable property1 it was a plutocracy 7or rule of wealth72 and lastly1 where all the citizens without distinction held the reins of office1 that was a democracy 7or rule of the people74 7#ch7 ,or1 in which the due discharge of lawful 7law-appointed7 obligations gave the title to magisterial office and government1 this form of polity he held to be an aristocracy 7or rule of the best74 ,see ,newman1 op4 cit4 i4 #bab1 #bce4 ,let me explain his method of reply where the disputant had no clear statement to make1 but without attempt at proof chose to contend that such or such a person named by himself was wiser1 or more of a statesman1 or more courageous1 and so forth1 than some other person4 7#ci7 ,socrates had a way of bringing the whole discussion back to the underlying proposition1 7#dj7 as thus3 7#ci7 ,or1 if any one encountered him in argument about any topic or person without any clear statement1 but a mere ipse dixit1 devoid of demonstration1 that so and so1 etc4 7#dj7 ,or1 question at bottom4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,laws1 #idi ,b4 ,soc4 ,you state that so and so1 whom you admire1 is a better citizen that this other whom ,i admire8 ,the ,disputant4 ,yes2 ,i repeat the assertion4 ,soc4 ,but would it not have been better to inquire first what is the work or function of a good citizen8 ,the ,disputant4 ,let us do so4 ,soc4 ,to begin1 then1 with the matter of expenditure3 his superiority will be shown by his increasing the resources and lightening the expenditure of the state8 7#da7 7#da7 ,or1 ,in the management of moneys1 then1 his strength will consist in his rendering the state better provided with ways and means8 ,certainly 7the disputant would answer74 ,soc4 ,and in the event of war1 by rendering his state superior to her antagonists8 ,the ,disputant4 ,clearly4 ,soc4 ,or on an embassy as a diplomatist1 ,i presume1 by securing friends in place of enemies8 ,that ,i should imagine 7replies the disputant74 ,soc4 ,well1 and in parliamentary debate1 by putting a stop to party strife and fostering civic concord8 ,the ,disputant4 ,that is my opinion4 ,by this method of bringing back the argument to its true starting-point1 even the disputant himself would be affected and the truth become manifest to his mind4 ,his own--that is1 the ,socratic--method of conducting a rational discussion 7#db7 was to proceed step by step from one point of general agreement to another3 ,herein lay the real security of reasoning1 7#dc7 he would say2 and for this reason he was more successful in winning the common assent of his hearers than any one ,i ever knew4 ,he had a saying that ,homer had conferred on ,odyesseus the title of a safe1 unerring orator1 7#dd7 because he had the gift to lead the discussion from one commonly accepted opinion to another4 7#db7 ,of1 of threading the mazes of an argument4 7#dc7 ,reading tauton asphaleian2 aliter4 tauten ten asphaleian that this security was part and parcel of reasoning4 7#dd7 ,od4 viii4 #aga1 o d' asphaleos agoreuei1 and his speech runs surely on its way 7,butcher and ,lang71 where ,odysseus is describing himself4 ,cf4 ,dion4 ,hal4 de ,arte ,rhet4 xi4 #h4 ,,vii ,the frankness and simplicity with which ,socrates endeavoured to declare his own opinions1 in dealing with those who conversed with him1 7#a7 is1 ,i think1 conclusively proved by the above instances2 at the same time1 as ,i hope now to show1 he was no less eager to cultivate a spirit of independence in others1 which would enable them to stand alone in all transactions suited to their powers4 7#a7 ,or1 who frequented his society1 is1 ,i hope1 clear from what has been said4 ,of all the men ,i have ever known1 he was most anxious to ascertain in what any of those about him was really versed2 and within the range of his own knowledge he showed the greatest zeal in teaching everything which it befits the true gentleman 7#b7 to know2 or where he was deficient in knowledge himself1 7#c7 he would introduce his friends to those who knew4 7#d7 ,he did not fail to teach them also up to what point it was proper for an educated man to acquire empiric knowledge of any particular matter4 7#e7 7#b7 ,lit4 a beautiful and good man4 7#c7 ,or1 where he lacked acquaintance with the matter himself4 ,see1 for an instance1 ,econ4 iii4 #ad4 7#d7 ,to those who had the special knowledge2 a connoisseur in the matter4 7#e7 ,or1 of any particular branch of learning2 in each department of things4 ,to take geometry as an instance3 ,every one 7he would say7 ought to be taught geometry so far1 at any rate1 as to be able1 if necessary1 to take over or part with a piece of land1 or to divide it up or assign a portion of it for cultivation1 7#f7 and in every case by geometric rule4 7#g7 ,that amount of geometry was so simple indeed1 and easy to learn1 that it only needed ordinary application of the mind to the method of mensuration1 and the student could at once ascertain the size of the piece of land1 and1 with the satisfaction of knowing its measurement1 depart in peace4 ,but he was unable to approve of the pursuit of geometry up to the point at which it became a study of unintelligible diagrams4 7#h7 ,what the use of these might be1 he failed1 he said1 to see2 and yet he was not unversed in these recondite matters himself4 7#i7 ,these things1 he would say1 were enough to wear out a man's life1 and to hinder him from many other more useful studies4 7#aj7 7#f7 e ergon apodeixasthai1 or and to explain the process4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,rep4 vii4 #ebh ,d4 ,see ,r4 ,kuhner ad loc4 for other interpretations of the phrase4 ,cf4 ,max4 ,tyr4 xxxvii4 #g4 7#g7 ,or1 by correct measurement2 lit4 by measurement of the earth4 7#h7 ,cf4 ,aristot4 ,pol4 v4 7viii47 #b2 ,cic4 ,acad4 ,post4 ,i4 iv4 #ae4 ,for the attitude compare the attitude of a philosopher in other respects most unlike ,socrates--,august ,comte1 e4g4 as to the futility of sidereal astronomy1 ,pos4 ,pol4 i4 #dab 7,bridges74 7#i7 ,cf4 ,isocr4 ,on the ,antidosis1 #beh-bfi1 as to the true place of ,eristic in education4 ,see above1 ,,iv4 ii4 #aj4 7#aj7 ,cf4 ,a4 ,comte as to perte intellectuelle in the pursuit of barren studies4 ,again1 a certain practical knowledge of astronomy1 a certain skill in the study of the stars1 he strongly insisted on4 ,every one should know enough of the science to be able to discover the hour of the night or the season of the month or year1 for the purposes of travel by land or sea--the march1 the voyage1 and the regulations of the watch2 7#aa7 and in general1 with regard to all matters connected with the night season1 or with the month1 or the year1 7#ab7 it was well to have such reliable data to go upon as would serve to distinguish the various times and seasons4 ,but these1 again1 were pieces of knowledge easily learnt from night sportsmen1 7#ac7 pilots of vessels1 and many others who make it their business to know such things4 ,as to pushing the study of astronomy so far as to include a knowledge of the movements of bodies outside our own orbit1 whether planets or stars of eccentric movement1 7#ad7 or wearing oneself out endeavouring to discover their distances from the earth1 their periods1 and their causes1 7#ae7 all this he strongly discountenanced2 for he saw 7he said7 no advantage in these any more than in the former studies4 ,and yet he was not unversed 7#af7 in the subtleties of astronomy any more than in those of geometry2 only these1 again1 he insisted1 were sufficient to wear out a man's lifetime1 and to keep him away from many more useful pursuits4 7#aa7 ,schneid4 cf4 ,plat4 ,rep4 vii4 #ebg ,d4 7#ab7 ,occurrences connected with the night1 the month1 or year4 e4g4 the festival of the ,karneia1 the tekmerion 7point de repere7 of which is the full moon of ,august4 ,cf4 ,eur4 ,alc4 #ddi4 7#ac7 ,see ,plat4 ,soph4 #bbj ,d2 above1 ,,iii4 xi4 #h2 ,cyrop4 ,i4 vi4 #dj2 ,hunting1 xii4 #f2 ,hippocr4 ,aer4 #bh4 7#ad7 ,see ,lewis1 ,astron4 of the ,ancients2 cf4 ,diog4 ,laert4 vii4 #a4 #add4 7#ae7 ,or1 the causes of these4 7#af7 oude touton ge anekoos en4 ,he had heard1 it is said1 ,archelaus1 a pupil of ,anaxagoras4 ,cf4 ,cic4 ,tusc4 ,v4 iv4 #aj4 ,and to speak generally1 in regard of things celestial he set his face against attempts to excogitate the machinery by which the divine power formed its several operations4 7#ag7 ,not only were these matters beyond man's faculties to discover1 as he believed1 but the attempt to search out what the gods had not chosen to reveal could hardly 7he supposed7 be well pleasing in their sight4 ,indeed1 the man who tortured his brains about such subjects stood a fair chance of losing his wits entirely1 just as ,anaxagoras1 7#ah7 the headiest speculator of them all1 in his attempt to explain the divine mechanism1 had somewhat lost his head4 ,anaxagoras took on himself to assert that sun and fire are identical1 7#ai7 ignoring the fact that human beings can easily look at fire1 but to gaze steadily into the face of the sun is given to no man2 or that under the influence of his rays the colour of the skin changes1 but under the rays of fire not4 7#bj7 ,he forgot that no plant or vegetation springs from earth's bosom with healthy growth without the help of sunlight1 whilst the influence of fire is to parch up everything1 and to destroy life2 and when he came to speak of the sun as being a red-hot stone he ignored another fact1 that a stone in fire neither lights up nor lasts1 whereas the sun-god abides for ever with intensist brilliancy undimmed4 7#ag7 ,or1 he tried to divert one from becoming overly-wise in heavenly matters and the 'mecanique celeste' of the ,godhead in ,his several operations4 ,see above1 ,i4 i4 #aa4 ,see ,grote1 ,plato1 i4 #dch4 7#ah7 ,of ,clazomenae4 ,cf4 ,plat4 ,apol4 #ad2 ,diog4 ,laert4 ,,ii4 vi2 ,cic4 ,tusc4 ,v4 iv4 #aj2 ,cobet1 ,prosop4 ,xen4 s4n42 ,grote1 ,h4 ,g4 i4 #eja4 7#ai7 ,or1 that the sun was simply a fire1 forgetting so simple a fact as that4 7#bj7 ,or1 the complexion darkens1 whereas fire has no such effect4 ,socrates inculcated the study of reasoning processes1 7#ba7 but in these1 equally with the rest1 he bade the student beware of vain and idle over-occupation4 ,up to the limit set by utility1 he was ready to join in any investigation1 and to follow out an argument with those who were with him2 but there he stopped4 ,he particularly urged those who were with him to pay the utmost attention to health4 ,they would learn all it was possible to learn from adepts1 and not only so1 but each one individually should take pains to discover1 by a lifelong observation of his own case1 what particular regimen1 what meat or drink1 or what kind of work1 best suited him2 these he should turn to account with a view to leading the healthiest possible life4 ,it would be no easy matter for any one who would follow this advice1 and study his own idiosyncrasy1 to find a doctor to improve either on the diagnosis or the treatment requisite4 7#bb7 7#ba7 logismous 7#a7 arithmetic1 7#b7 calculation1 7#c7 syllogistic reasoning4 ,see ,l4 ,dind4 ,index4 ,gr4 s4v41 and ,kuhner ad loc42 cf4 ,plat4 ,gorg4 #dea ,c4 ,it is important to decide which form of logism is meant here4 7#bb7 ,or1 to find a doctor better able than himself to 'diagnose' and prescribe a treatment congenial to health4 ,cf4 ,tac4 ,ann4 vi4 #df2 ,plut4 de ,san4 #acf ,e1 ap4 ,schneid4 ad loc4 ,where any one came seeking for help which no human wisdom could supply1 he would counsel him to give heed to divination4 ,he who has the secret of the means whereby the gods give signs to men touching their affairs can never surely find himself bereft of heavenly guidance4 ,,viii ,now if any one should be disposed to set the statement of ,socrates touching the divinity 7#a7 which warned him what he ought to do or not to do1 against the fact that he was sentenced to death by the board of judges1 and argue that thereby ,socrates stood convicted of lying and delusion in respect of this divinity of his1 ,i would have him to note in the first place that1 at the date of his trial1 ,socrates was already so far advanced in years that had he not died then his life would have reached its natural term soon afterwards2 and secondly1 as matters went1 he escaped life's bitterest load 7#b7 in escaping those years which bring a diminution of intellectual force to all--instead of which he was called upon to exhibit the full robustness of his soul and acquire glory in addition1 7#c7 partly by the style of his defence--felicitous alike in its truthfulness1 its freedom1 and its rectitude 7#d7--;and partly by the manner in which he bore the sentence of condemnation with infinite gentleness and manliness4 ,since no one within the memory of man1 it is admitted1 ever bowed his head to death more nobly4 ,after the sentence he must needs live for thirty days1 since it was the month of the ,delia1 7#e7 and the law does not suffer any man to die by the hand of the public executioner until the sacred embassy return from ,delos4 ,during the whole of that period 7as his acquaintances without exception can testify7 his life proceeded as usual4 ,there was nothing to mark the difference between now and formerly in the even tenour of its courage2 and it was a life which at all times had been a marvel of cheerfulness and calm content4 7#f7 7#a7 ,or1 the words of ,socrates with regard to a divine something which warned him1 etc4 7#b7 ,the phraseology is poetical4 7#c7 ,or1 in a manner which redounded to his glory4 7#d7 ,or1 marvellous alike for the sincerity of its language1 the free unbroken spirit of its delivery1 and the absolute rectitude of the speaker4 7#e7 i4e4 the lesser ,delian solemnities1 an annual festival instituted1 it was said1 by ,theseus4 ,see ,plut4 ,theseus1 #bc 7,clough1 i4 #ai72 and for the whole matter see ,plat4 ,phaed4 #eh foll4 7#f7 ,cf4 ,arist4 ,frogs1 #hb2 of ,sophocles1 o d' eukolos men enthad'1 eukolos d' ekei4 7,let us pause and ask how could man die more nobly and more beautifully than in the way described8 or put it thus3 dying so1 then was his death most noble and most beautiful2 and being the most beautiful1 then was it also the most fortunate and heaven-blest2 and being most blessed of heaven1 then was it also most precious in the sight of ,god47 7#g7 7#g7 ,this is bracketed as spurious by ,sauppe and other commentators4 ,but see ,cyrop4 ,,viii4 ii4 #g1 #h1 for similar ineptitude of style4 ,r4 ,kuhner defends the passage as genuine4 ,and now ,i will mention further certain things which ,i have heard from ,hermogenes1 the son of ,hipponicus1 7#h7 concerning him4 ,he said that even after ,meletus 7#i7 had drawn up the indictment1 he himself used to hear ,socrates conversing and discussing everything rather than the suit impending1 and had ventured to suggest that he ought to be considering the line of his defence1 to which1 in the first instance1 the master answered3 ,do ,i not seem to you to have been practising that my whole life long8 ,and upon his asking ,how8 added in explanation that he had passed his days in nothing else save in distinguishing between what is just and what is unjust 7right and wrong71 and in doing what is right and abstaining from what is wrong2 which conduct 7he added7 ,i hold to be the finest possible practice for my defence2 and when he 7,hermogenes71 returning to the point again1 pleaded with ,socrates3 ,do you not see1 ,socrates1 how commonly it happens that an ,athenian jury1 under the influence of argument1 condemns innocent people to death and acquits real criminals8--,socrates replied1 ,i assure you1 ,hermogenes1 that each time ,i have essayed to give my thoughts to the defence which ,i am to make before the court1 the divinity 7#aj7 has opposed me4 ,and when he 7,hermogenes7 exclaimed1 ,how strange6--,do you find it strange 7he continued71 that to the ,godhead it should appear better for me to close my life at once8 ,do you not know that up to the present moment there is no man whom ,i can admit to have spent a better or happier life than mine4 ,since theirs ,i regard as the best of lives who study best to become as good as may be1 and theirs the happiest who have the liveliest sense of growth in goodness2 and such1 hitherto1 is the happy fortune which ,i perceive to have fallen to my lot4 ,to such conclusion ,i have come1 not only in accidental intercourse with others1 but by a strict comparison drawn between myself and others1 and in this faith ,i continue to this day2 and not ,i only1 but my friends continue in a like persuasion with regard to me1 not for the lame reason that they are my friends and love me 7or else would others have been in like case as regards their friends71 but because they are persuaded that by being with me they will attain to their full height of goodness4 ,but1 if ,i am destined to prolong my days1 maybe ,i shall be enforced to pay in full the penalties of old age--to see and hear less keenly1 to fail in intellectual force1 and to leave school1 as it were1 more of a dunce than when ,i came1 less learned and more forgetful--in a word1 ,i shall fall from my high estate1 and daily grow worse in that wherein aforetime ,i excelled4 ,but indeed1 were it possible to remain unconscious of the change1 the life left would scarcely be worth living2 but given that there is a consciousness of the change1 then must the existence left to live be found by comparison insipid1 joyless1 a death in life1 devoid of life's charm4 ,but indeed1 if it is reserved for me to die unjustly1 then on those who unjustly slay me lies the shame 7since1 given injustice is base1 how can any unjust action whatsoever fail of baseness87 7#aa7 ,but for me what disgrace is it that others should fail of a just decision and right acts concerning me8444 ,i see before me a long line of predecessors on this road1 and ,i mark the reputation also among posterity which they have left4 7#ab7 ,i note how it varies according as they did or suffered wrong1 and for myself ,i know that ,i too1 although ,i die to-day1 shall obtain from mankind a consideration far different from that which will be accorded to those who put me to death4 ,i know that undying witness will be borne me to this effect1 that ,i never at any time did wrong to any man1 or made him a worse man1 but ever tried to make those better who were with me4 7#h7 ,see above1 ,,ii4 x4 #c2 ,symp4 i4 #c2 iii4 #ad2 iv4 #dg foll42 vi4 #b2 ,apol4 #b2 ,plat4 ,crat4 #chd4 7#i7 ,see above1 ,i4 i4 #a4 7#aj7 to daimonion--the divine 7voice74 7#aa7 ,this passage also may1 perhaps1 be regarded as spurious4 7#ab7 ,or1 ,there floats before my eyes a vision of the many who have gone this same gate4 ,i note their legacies of fame among posterity4 ,such are the words which he spoke in conversation with ,hermogenes and the rest4 ,but amongst those who knew ,socrates and recognised what manner of man he was1 all who make virtue and perfection their pursuit still to this day cease not to lament his loss with bitterest regret1 as for one who helped them in the pursuit of virtue as none else could4 ,to me1 personally1 he was what ,i have myself endeavoured to describe3 so pious and devoutly religious 7#ac7 that he would take no step apart from the will of heaven2 so just and upright that he never did even a trifling injury to any living soul2 so self-controlled1 so temperate1 that he never at any time chose the sweeter in place of the better2 so sensible1 and wise1 and prudent that in distinguishing the better from the worse he never erred2 nor had he need of any helper1 but for the knowledge of these matters1 his judgment was at once infallible and self-sufficing4 ,capable of reasonably setting forth and defining moral questions1 7#ad7 he was also able to test others1 and where they erred1 to cross-examine and convict them1 and so to impel and guide them in the path of virtue and noble manhood4 ,with these characteristics1 he seemed to be the very impersonation of human perfection and happiness4 7#ae7 7#ac7 ,or1 of such piety and religious devotedness444 of such rectitude444 of such sobreity and self-control444 of such sound sense and wisdom444 7#ad7 ,or1 gifted with an ability logically to set forth and to define moral subtleties4 7#ae7 ,or1 ,i look upon him as at once the best and happiest of men4 ,such is our estimate4 ,if the verdict fail to satisfy ,i would ask those who disagree with it to place the character of any other side by side with this delineation1 and then pass sentence4